In case the DDB Team is tracking the sentiments of this thread, I will certainly not be pre-ordering this book, mostly because I have not been told in any of the marketing for it how it will affect content I already have. This is essentially an anthology errata update. It is a book that makes sense in print and only makes sense in digital if I don't already own the content that is being errata'd. While I don't mind my content being updated, I do mind purchasing that content a second time unnecessarily. Especially in a non-refundable context.
Respectfully, please do better. If you can't tell me what you are selling in regards to the content you have already sold, then don't flip the pre-sale button.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
I've been reading this thread with interest but hesitated on putting in my two cents because I don't think anyone's minds will be changed by anything I or anyone else says. I believe all of you have a right to your feelings about this but I agree with Amata.
I also would like to point out that the pre-sales banner isn't just targeted at people who already own content. If you do, then yes you have a right to want more information. However, many people on DDB do not own the MM, Volo's or other similar books. When I first starting using DDB I was just a player. I used the free tools and didn't make my first purchase until I wanted a subclass not available for free. I then purchased the Players Handbook. Slowly but surely I amassed other books often waiting until something was on sale. I didn't purchase the MM or Volo's until I began DMing and even then I put it off until I started playing online and found myself constantly buying monsters a la cart. I think there are a lot of people like me.
There are probably people who heard there was going to be a new book and put off purchasing the MM and Volo's because they want the new one instead. I was going to purchase the hardcover MM as a gift for a friend who is starting to DM. I decided wait because I would rather give him the new book. That is just a personal decision on my part.
In other words there are people on DDB who are new to D&D and new DDB. They aren't interested in what the old lore is and don't have to worry about their previous purchases being updated or whatever. The pre-order is more for them than us. As for the rest of us, we don't have to pre-order. I never do - not even for the hardcover books. I don't need anything right away, the minute it is available. I take my time. That is just me. The book will be out in May. That is plenty of time for DDB to let us know what's up and for us to decide if we want to pre-order or not.
As far as Fantasy Grounds. They may have a slightly different license than DDB so they can say "hey guys, if you want to use this, you have to buy it." It's also possible that DDB is trying to work out something different with Wizards because they are going to bat for us. We don't know. We aren't privy to those discussions and probably will never be.
I want to make it clear that I understand everyone's feelings about this and you have a right to them. I don't feel the same way and I have a right to my feelings about the situation. I'm just saying we should think about the other users of this site who have been waiting for that pre-order banner and would be disappointed if they couldn't do that.
"The only other point I might make is this: when I preordered my copy of M3 from DDB earlier today, I did in fact receive a discount for previously-purchased content."
Gosh, thank you very much for your editorial input - internal inconsistency drives me crazy, too! I will definitely go back to my original response and edit for clarity's sake, despite having posted a clarifying remark to better inform that bit of my thinking.
My current idea is to adjust the statement to something like "the only other info I might add is... " -or maybe delete that part entirely based on other following comments indicating that it was an automatic thing, and not any kind of actual discount? Please let me know if you have a preference, and/or if my edits are insufficient for whatever point you were trying to make. For the sake of staying on-topic, feel free to send other editorial comments about SPAG and word-choice to me in a direct message.
Incidentally, did you have any response for the content of my remarks, or was it only this bit of poor word choice that you found fault with?
I've been reading this thread with interest but hesitated on putting in my two cents because I don't think anyone's minds will be changed by anything I or anyone else says. I believe all of you have a right to your feelings about this but I agree with Amata.
I also would like to point out that the pre-sales banner isn't just targeted at people who already own content. If you do, then yes you have a right to want more information. However, many people on DDB do not own the MM, Volo's or other similar books. When I first starting using DDB I was just a player. I used the free tools and didn't make my first purchase until I wanted a subclass not available for free. I then purchased the Players Handbook. Slowly but surely I amassed other books often waiting until something was on sale. I didn't purchase the MM or Volo's until I began DMing and even then I put it off until I started playing online and found myself constantly buying monsters a la cart. I think there are a lot of people like me.
There are probably people who heard there was going to be a new book and put off purchasing the MM and Volo's because they want the new one instead. I was going to purchase the hardcover MM as a gift for a friend who is starting to DM. I decided wait because I would rather give him the new book. That is just a personal decision on my part.
In other words there are people on DDB who are new to D&D and new DDB. They aren't interested in what the old lore is and don't have to worry about their previous purchases being updated or whatever. The pre-order is more for them than us. As for the rest of us, we don't have to pre-order. I never do - not even for the hardcover books. I don't need anything right away, the minute it is available. I take my time. That is just me. The book will be out in May. That is plenty of time for DDB to let us know what's up and for us to decide if we want to pre-order or not.
As far as Fantasy Grounds. They may have a slightly different license than DDB so they can say "hey guys, if you want to use this, you have to buy it." It's also possible that DDB is trying to work out something different with Wizards because they are going to bat for us. We don't know. We aren't privy to those discussions and probably will never be.
I want to make it clear that I understand everyone's feelings about this and you have a right to them. I don't feel the same way and I have a right to my feelings about the situation. I'm just saying we should think about the other users of this site who have been waiting for that pre-order banner and would be disappointed if they couldn't do that.
I do think that those folks are the least impacted by the lack of information so while I appreciate you trying to look out for them they are also the ones who will lose out the least in the whole deal.
They don't have content now and won't be affected much if it turns out to be redundant and won't have the need to ask for a refund....
Transparency of what you are going to get as a product is always a good thing and there is little reason to NOT include it ever.
Incidentally, did you have any response for the content of my remarks, or was it only this bit of poor word choice that you found fault with?
Mostly the argument that wasn't, so to speak, but I do think consumers are allowed to voice dissatisfaction with a company they support. "Simply not buying the product" doesn't necessarily send a clear message, particularly when it comes to pre-orders. M³ is contentious for its content as much as, if not more than, the way DDB is currently handling it. There are many reasons why someone might not buy it or might wait to buy it, so simply seeing limited sales numbers doesn't really tell DDB it's because of poor communication, doesn't tell WotC if it's because of the apparent change in policies, doesn't tell if it's because of content, etc. All it says is fewer people are willing to buy the book, and that doesn't help anyone with doing something about the dissatisfaction. Could a lot of the posts here have been worded in a more restrained fashion? Absolutely. Not sure if the depth of the issues would really come across properly through muted expression though, and most of these posts weren't really beyond the pale anyway (in my opinion at least).
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I've been reading this thread with interest but hesitated on putting in my two cents because I don't think anyone's minds will be changed by anything I or anyone else says. I believe all of you have a right to your feelings about this but I agree with Amata.
I also would like to point out that the pre-sales banner isn't just targeted at people who already own content. If you do, then yes you have a right to want more information. However, many people on DDB do not own the MM, Volo's or other similar books. When I first starting using DDB I was just a player. I used the free tools and didn't make my first purchase until I wanted a subclass not available for free. I then purchased the Players Handbook. Slowly but surely I amassed other books often waiting until something was on sale. I didn't purchase the MM or Volo's until I began DMing and even then I put it off until I started playing online and found myself constantly buying monsters a la cart. I think there are a lot of people like me.
There are probably people who heard there was going to be a new book and put off purchasing the MM and Volo's because they want the new one instead. I was going to purchase the hardcover MM as a gift for a friend who is starting to DM. I decided wait because I would rather give him the new book. That is just a personal decision on my part.
In other words there are people on DDB who are new to D&D and new DDB. They aren't interested in what the old lore is and don't have to worry about their previous purchases being updated or whatever. The pre-order is more for them than us. As for the rest of us, we don't have to pre-order. I never do - not even for the hardcover books. I don't need anything right away, the minute it is available. I take my time. That is just me. The book will be out in May. That is plenty of time for DDB to let us know what's up and for us to decide if we want to pre-order or not.
As far as Fantasy Grounds. They may have a slightly different license than DDB so they can say "hey guys, if you want to use this, you have to buy it." It's also possible that DDB is trying to work out something different with Wizards because they are going to bat for us. We don't know. We aren't privy to those discussions and probably will never be.
I want to make it clear that I understand everyone's feelings about this and you have a right to them. I don't feel the same way and I have a right to my feelings about the situation. I'm just saying we should think about the other users of this site who have been waiting for that pre-order banner and would be disappointed if they couldn't do that.
I agree this is not going to harm them or you. It also wouldn't have harmed you had WotC in combination with their partners delayed the pre-order date until WotC could inform their partners how it would be implemented on their platforms. We wouldn't have known any better as it's a pre-order - there is no reason to be selling it before then.
This IS baiting people who don't know better. Yes I know people keep advising people to wait if we aren't comfortable spending our money on unknowns - that's fair that's probably what most here are doing. However, completely reprehensible and worse is to sell something when you don't have that information. Whoever made the decision that the pre-order HAD to start before that information was available to WotC partners really screwed up.
To me it's not about the money specifically. It's the total lack of consideration for digital customers by both WotC and DDB (DDB shouldn't be doing no refunds on this book considering even they lack this information - this is assuming they are forced to put it up otherwise it's solely on DDB)
I've been reading this thread with interest but hesitated on putting in my two cents because I don't think anyone's minds will be changed by anything I or anyone else says. I believe all of you have a right to your feelings about this but I agree with Amata.
I also would like to point out that the pre-sales banner isn't just targeted at people who already own content. If you do, then yes you have a right to want more information. However, many people on DDB do not own the MM, Volo's or other similar books. When I first starting using DDB I was just a player. I used the free tools and didn't make my first purchase until I wanted a subclass not available for free. I then purchased the Players Handbook. Slowly but surely I amassed other books often waiting until something was on sale. I didn't purchase the MM or Volo's until I began DMing and even then I put it off until I started playing online and found myself constantly buying monsters a la cart. I think there are a lot of people like me.
There are probably people who heard there was going to be a new book and put off purchasing the MM and Volo's because they want the new one instead. I was going to purchase the hardcover MM as a gift for a friend who is starting to DM. I decided wait because I would rather give him the new book. That is just a personal decision on my part.
In other words there are people on DDB who are new to D&D and new DDB. They aren't interested in what the old lore is and don't have to worry about their previous purchases being updated or whatever. The pre-order is more for them than us. As for the rest of us, we don't have to pre-order. I never do - not even for the hardcover books. I don't need anything right away, the minute it is available. I take my time. That is just me. The book will be out in May. That is plenty of time for DDB to let us know what's up and for us to decide if we want to pre-order or not.
As far as Fantasy Grounds. They may have a slightly different license than DDB so they can say "hey guys, if you want to use this, you have to buy it." It's also possible that DDB is trying to work out something different with Wizards because they are going to bat for us. We don't know. We aren't privy to those discussions and probably will never be.
I want to make it clear that I understand everyone's feelings about this and you have a right to them. I don't feel the same way and I have a right to my feelings about the situation. I'm just saying we should think about the other users of this site who have been waiting for that pre-order banner and would be disappointed if they couldn't do that.
The problem isn't for those people or people like me who don't have any of those books and so aren't affected by this. The problem is that for people who have bought those previous books already. Let's run through a hypothetical scenario - one that I'm not so sure is so hypothetical.
A D&D enthusiast who doesn't frequent the forums buys Volo's and most of the sourcebooks on DDB. Recently, they see the advert for MMM, and wants the updates for their games. They decide that they might as well get it on preorder, because why not? They pay for it. May comes around, and they find that pretty much everything they wanted comes free (for them, having purchased the other books) anyway. They've just paid for their content twice, because DDB/WotC/whoever hid that fact from them. Even if they realise tomorrow, after they paid for it, they can't get a refund.
That's not ethical. The book was announced months ago - this was a detail that should have been hashed out back then, not now the banner has encouraged people buy without knowledge of what they're actually receiving. It's not a problem that they've put a banner out or encouraged preorders - not my cup of tea after the Mario Tennis Aces debacle, but if others want to do it, great - but the product details really should have been released either simultaneously or before they did so.
That's why everyone is up in arms over it. I wish people would be nicer about it, but I understand the problem. I personally don't care which way they go with it, and I can see valid arguments either way, but the information should be presented before sale. At the least, any preorders made before that information is released should be refundable.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
. . . The book will be out in May. That is plenty of time for DDB to let us know what's up and for us to decide if we want to pre-order or not.
As far as Fantasy Grounds. They may have a slightly different license than DDB so they can say "hey guys, if you want to use this, you have to buy it." It's also possible that DDB is trying to work out something different with Wizards because they are going to bat for us. We don't know. We aren't privy to those discussions and probably will never be. . .
I feel like this is such a great point, it bears repetition for the sake of taking a moment to stop and really consider its implications. Thank you MorriganMacha for stating this so plainly.
The truth is that we aren't privy to those details - and, yeah, for all we know DDB hasn't said much yet because they're in talks with Wizard because they want better for us. It is within the realm of possibilities, just as much as "DDB is purposefully being uncommunicative and demanding money from us bc reasons xx-_- xx" I have seen Fantasy Grounds brought up in counterpoint to the official "we don't have anything yet, plz be patient" from DDB and from other users.
I might suggest that using FG as a rebuttal actually weakens the part of the argument suggesting that DDB should not have open preorders until they did have more information. If digital retail competitors like Fantasy Grounds, Roll20, or Foundry have taken what Wizards has stipulated, not pushed back, and opened up preorders with the unfair "you want it, you buy it (again)"then DDB has been trapped in a corner. As a company, there is absolutely no way that DDB can afford to let competitors offer preorders without also starting DDB preorders; like many of y'all, I have worked in niche retail and if we sat to think it through, we'd most likely agree that this would be a terrible critical hit for a business.
If DDB has further details to work out with WotC, or decisions to be made regarding implementation, they really only have two choices: start pre-orders alongside competitors and follow up with "more information pending" or hold DDB preorders until there are more details to release alongside and watch newbies and potential new customers walk away to competitors during the months of interim dead time.
I must acknowledge that some of this logic is speculative. However, the alternative currently being suggested is that DDB is knowingly generating a ton of bad-faith with their users for no particular reason. I don't follow the logic in that - even if I put aside optimism and faith in notions of inherent goodness, I am still left with the underlying logic of enlightened self-interest. It just wouldn't be best business practice for DDB to behave that way. This is part of why I am comfortable with waiting in good faith and confidence that there might be more going on that I am not privy to - and that the opening of presales has more to do with market competition than with corporate greed.
. . . The book will be out in May. That is plenty of time for DDB to let us know what's up and for us to decide if we want to pre-order or not.
As far as Fantasy Grounds. They may have a slightly different license than DDB so they can say "hey guys, if you want to use this, you have to buy it." It's also possible that DDB is trying to work out something different with Wizards because they are going to bat for us. We don't know. We aren't privy to those discussions and probably will never be. . .
I feel like this is such a great point, it bears repetition for the sake of taking a moment to stop and really consider its implications. Thank you MorriganMacha for stating this so plainly.
The truth is that we aren't privy to those details - and, yeah, for all we know DDB hasn't said much yet because they're in talks with Wizard because they want better for us. It is within the realm of possibilities, just as much as "DDB is purposefully being uncommunicative and demanding money from us bc reasons xx-_- xx" I have seen Fantasy Grounds brought up in counterpoint to the official "we don't have anything yet, plz be patient" from DDB and from other users.
I might suggest that using FG as a rebuttal actually weakens the part of the argument suggesting that DDB should not have open preorders until they did have more information. If digital retail competitors like Fantasy Grounds, Roll20, or Foundry have taken what Wizards has stipulated, not pushed back, and opened up preorders with the unfair "you want it, you buy it (again)"then DDB has been trapped in a corner. As a company, there is absolutely no way that DDB can afford to let competitors offer preorders without also starting DDB preorders; like many of y'all, I have worked in niche retail and if we sat to think it through, we'd most likely agree that this would be a terrible critical hit for a business.
If DDB has further details to work out with WotC, or decisions to be made regarding implementation, they really only have two choices: start pre-orders alongside competitors and follow up with "more information pending" or hold DDB preorders until there are more details to release alongside and watch newbies and potential new customers walk away to competitors during the months of interim dead time.
I must acknowledge that some of this logic is speculative. However, the alternative currently being suggested is that DDB is knowingly generating a ton of bad-faith with their users for no particular reason. I don't follow the logic in that - even if I put aside optimism and faith in notions of inherent goodness, I am still left with the underlying logic of enlightened self-interest. It just wouldn't be best business practice for DDB to behave that way. This is part of why I am comfortable with waiting in good faith and confidence that there might be more going on that I am not privy to - and that the opening of presales has more to do with market competition than with corporate greed.
I'm sorry but your saying that they are doing something terrible because their competitors have a better licensing agreement (or at least more straight forward). That doesn't make it better. Just because they are a business doesn't excuse it. DDB would not be at risk of failing if they didn't offer pre-orders for this book until they had the information.
However for arguments sake - let's say they have to offer pre-orders or are at a real risk if they don't. They certainly could offer refunds to those that buy it without the information that they themselves don't have. It's not like the customer gets instant access to the content then are asking for a refund after printing it off the site. They just remove the pre-order from the account.
There are plenty of things they could do that would make this sit better with their customer base. They have chosen to do none of it (or at least not stated they will offer refunds if people are unsatisfied once they find out) for the almighty dollar and being a business doesn't excuse that.
I'll also be honest if DDB is going to bat for anyone it's themselves (as you say they are a business) - likely to reduce the blow back / work hours spent on managing content.
Also as stated before WotC should have been the one to put a halt to digital pre-orders across the board if even one of their partners wasn't informed how it will work. With WotC failing to do that DDB should have come up with their own solution (prehaps not sell it yet if allowed to wait - or offer refunds).
In the end I'm still strongly of the opinion either don't offer pre-orders or offer refunds because "I don't know how buying this will affect your account/content but if you do buy it and aren't in the know.. well... GOTCHA no refunds" sucks.
The truth is that we aren't privy to those details ...
That we're not privy to those details is the point. We don't have to know every detail of what's going on, but we should know enough to make an informed purchase if we're going to buy something currently for sale on this site. That's all most people are arguing, really, if you look past the emotions and parse out the essence.
It's increasingly unlikely that we end up in a situation where the updates to existing content will be made available for free to those who already own that content. If so then at least those buying M³ before that's clarified who are in that position don't have to beat themselves up over having spent money, but the fact remains that DDB's current (WotC mandated) policy of updating content automatically and for free casts some doubt about that. That shouldn't be the case for a product not only being sold but actively promoted on the site.
My advice to everyone is not to pre-order unless you don't care about any aspect of any of this, and certainly not to pre-order right now. There is nothing to gain by pre-ordering now over pre-ordering the day before the book is released on DDB. We can wait until more info is provided without losing out on anything. But again, that doesn't really pass on the message of any discontent we may feel about the proceedings, it's not a step towards resolving this situation or preventing it from happening again in the future (which is not a negligible concern, given that a system update has been announced for 2024) and it doesn't change the simple fact that all of this shouldn't have been allowed to come to pass in the first place.
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Let me put it this way: I would prefer it if the updates in M3 were kept separate from the existing content and I had to spend money again. Were that the case, and more importantly KNOWN TO BE THE CASE, I would have no beef with DDB offering the book for preorder.
But we don't know that. Nobody knows that. Apparently not even DDB, and they're selling the bloody thing.
Selling a product one does not have and cannot define is the province of schysters, hoods, and con men. It's nothing a respectable business should be doing, and the fact that some people are happily preordering anyways does not excuse the shoddy, anticonsumer business decision.
In that bigass post earlier where you took me to task without giving me the courtesy of naming me, you told me it was rude to be dissatisfied with something a business was doing and that if I didn't like it I was welcome to simply not spend my money without having to complain about it. I would argue it's a lot more rude to sell someone something, and then only decide after the fact and after you've squirreled away their money unrecoverably whether or not they already owned the thing you sold them.
Was I vicious about it? Sure. They've known this was coming for months. There's been at least a dozen other forum threads asking this question in a Calm And Civil Manner. Calm And Civil got us absolutely nowhere. We were deliberately, actively, and quite possibly even maliciously ignored. So now they get the Hot & Spicy version. If they didn't want Hot & Spicy, they should've sorted this out before, when people were doing Calm And Civil.
Whelp... I came to see if the new book was worth buying, as i already own every source book DDB has to offer, but its looking like the new book is A) Im gunna get it all for free anyway which is gunna irritate the hell out of me if they remove the stuff i already paid for and am still bloody using. or B) they add it alongside existing stuff. Either way its looking like a massive dumpster fire, and honestly it seems quite shady to sell me my own pre existing content for mostly full price.
Sadly this will be the first sourcebook i do not preorder, or even get at all. :c
Fundamentally, it's inappropriate and possibly in the EU, outright illegal, to do non-refundable pre-orders on a product you apparently do not even know the nature of - i.e. you're awaiting instructions (if I understand correctly). Am I misunderstanding and the pre-orders are refundable? If not DDB would do well to either prevent EU pre-orders or stop offering pre-orders at all until the product is known.
I am not the person with whom to direct this speculation to, I'm just a moderator. I'm sure those in charge for handing such things are aware of the legal specifics
Hey Davyd. Curious: how are you sure of that? Have you spoken to someone employed at Dndbeyond who has said that? Because international compliance could easily be overlooked. Keep in mind that in order to pursue a complaint EU residents would have to prove that dndbeyond didn't know the nature of it. While I think that it is true that no one we are allowed to talk to as mere clients knows, I think that it is highly likely that a number of people at the company know exactly what their intentions are. They simply choose not to say because they believe that the answer will be disadvantageous to them. There is no moral component of "hey, we should be careful not to defraud our clients". If there were, then they would have bit the bullet and either delayed releasing pre-orders or else been clear how the product would be implemented, or openly said that they did not know.
But instead of even simply saying "It has yet to be determined how this will be implemented" they went with silence. And that is what this outcry is all about.
Moral of the story - no matter what DDB would have said y'all would be upset. People were upset that they were silent, then Mellie came in and gave frankly the expected answer which was "we are working on it we are not sure yet" and the same people who cried out about silence are now made at "we don't know."
So please tell me how DDB was going to appease people who don't like silence or we don't know even though "Saying they aren't sure is better than silence" was a direct sentiment of those annoyed.
The ONLY reason to preorder things on DDB is simply to get all the added stuff that come out like portraits and BG - that is what preordering does so y'all really barking up the wrong tree in many sense. Is there some justification for questioning how it will be done - yes - does it need a flame filled thread to say you won't preorder, when preordering only gets you added bonuses and waiting till the book drop doesn't change that outcome? No.
Moral of the story - no matter what DDB would have said y'all would be upset. People were upset that they were silent, then Mellie came in and gave frankly the expected answer which was "we are working on it we are not sure yet" and the same people who cried out about silence are now made at "we don't know."
So please tell me how DDB was going to appease people who don't like silence or we don't know even though "Saying they aren't sure is better than silence" was a direct sentiment of those annoyed.
The ONLY reason to preorder things on DDB is simply to get all the added stuff that come out like portraits and BG - that is what preordering does so y'all really barking up the wrong tree in many sense. Is there some justification for questioning how it will be done - yes - does it need a flame filled thread to say you won't preorder, when preordering only gets you added bonuses and waiting till the book drop doesn't change that outcome? No.
I'm not happy with the answer, but it is an answer. That answer has led me to not renewing my master tier subscription and waiting for an answer as to how that content will be offered. Hopefully the Dev Update tomorrow is able to provide something.
I'm content, but I'm also allowed to be vocal about my opinion to everyone that they shouldn't buy the content until D&D Beyond comes out and says how that content will be presented.
When the book is released here on DDB there will be a toggle like we have for Tashas like when we create a character now that asks do you want to edit your origin, and do you want to edit your classthey will add do you want the 3M races or the old races or should I say Do you want the old busted races, or the new hotness races?
Moral of the story - no matter what DDB would have said y'all would be upset. People were upset that they were silent, then Mellie came in and gave frankly the expected answer which was "we are working on it we are not sure yet" and the same people who cried out about silence are now made at "we don't know."
So please tell me how DDB was going to appease people who don't like silence or we don't know even though "Saying they aren't sure is better than silence" was a direct sentiment of those annoyed.
Clearly it'd have helped if people hadn't ended up upset in the first place, but that ship sailed a while ago and it takes a little bit more than a token attempt at reconciliation to fix something like that. That "we don't know" is a better answer than no answer at all doesn't mean it's a good answer either - it's really more of a veiled confirmation the blockage sits with WotC (who might have felt thrown under the bus if that confirmation had been loud and clear instead). I can understand why some may feel DDB could push a bit harder, but licence holders are expected to play nice and it's not like there's any real leverage over WotC to use. It is what it is, and people can be disappointed with that. Fact of the matter is, it's been piling on: cancelling two consecutive dev updates isn't a great look, whether there were reasons or not.
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. . . The book will be out in May. That is plenty of time for DDB to let us know what's up and for us to decide if we want to pre-order or not.
As far as Fantasy Grounds. They may have a slightly different license than DDB so they can say "hey guys, if you want to use this, you have to buy it." It's also possible that DDB is trying to work out something different with Wizards because they are going to bat for us. We don't know. We aren't privy to those discussions and probably will never be. . .
I feel like this is such a great point, it bears repetition for the sake of taking a moment to stop and really consider its implications. Thank you MorriganMacha for stating this so plainly.
The truth is that we aren't privy to those details - and, yeah, for all we know DDB hasn't said much yet because they're in talks with Wizard because they want better for us. It is within the realm of possibilities, just as much as "DDB is purposefully being uncommunicative and demanding money from us bc reasons xx-_- xx" I have seen Fantasy Grounds brought up in counterpoint to the official "we don't have anything yet, plz be patient" from DDB and from other users.
I might suggest that using FG as a rebuttal actually weakens the part of the argument suggesting that DDB should not have open preorders until they did have more information. If digital retail competitors like Fantasy Grounds, Roll20, or Foundry have taken what Wizards has stipulated, not pushed back, and opened up preorders with the unfair "you want it, you buy it (again)"then DDB has been trapped in a corner. As a company, there is absolutely no way that DDB can afford to let competitors offer preorders without also starting DDB preorders; like many of y'all, I have worked in niche retail and if we sat to think it through, we'd most likely agree that this would be a terrible critical hit for a business.
If DDB has further details to work out with WotC, or decisions to be made regarding implementation, they really only have two choices: start pre-orders alongside competitors and follow up with "more information pending" or hold DDB preorders until there are more details to release alongside and watch newbies and potential new customers walk away to competitors during the months of interim dead time.
I must acknowledge that some of this logic is speculative. However, the alternative currently being suggested is that DDB is knowingly generating a ton of bad-faith with their users for no particular reason. I don't follow the logic in that - even if I put aside optimism and faith in notions of inherent goodness, I am still left with the underlying logic of enlightened self-interest. It just wouldn't be best business practice for DDB to behave that way. This is part of why I am comfortable with waiting in good faith and confidence that there might be more going on that I am not privy to - and that the opening of presales has more to do with market competition than with corporate greed.
Hi Jay_Lane, I hope you don't mind, but you covered a bit of territory with your response - so I'm going to make some replies in-line. For the record, Amata is using the silvery-purple text color while the black text is the original text from Jay_Lane.~💜A
I'm sorry but your saying that they are doing something terrible because their competitors have a better licensing agreement (or at least more straight forward). That doesn't make it better. Just because they are a business doesn't excuse it.
I am guessing that "they" in your comments is meant to be DDB, please correct me if that was not the case. And, just as a reference point, I do not think their competitors have a better licensing agreement, simply that they appear to have no issue with the licensing agreement they have with WotC, and are acting accordingly.
I understand the point of view you are using for the above comment, but I feel that I must have failed to correctly articulate my train of thought. Part of what I was saying was that not everyone thinks that DDB is doing something terrible in the first place. There exists a point of view wherein WotC has a new source book coming out, DDB among other usual retail suppliers will be selling a digital version of it, and all I have to do is decide (a) if I want the content and, if so (b) do I want to preorder that content or not. I am suggesting that there are plenty of people out here who don't find this sequence alarming or terrible - rather, infinitely mundane and kinda boring actually.
DDB would not be at risk of failing if they didn't offer pre-orders for this book until they had the information.
To be transparent, I really can't speak to this. When I suggested that DDB's decision to open for pre-orders at the same time as their competitors might be based on economics instead of greed or shady cash-grab practices... I meant that (a) it was as equally likely and equally unlikely as any other speculation about possible motives, and (b) without insider knowledge, DDB users can surely accept some of the broadly applicable facts of marketplace-economics: If Store A and Store B both have license to sell new Product M, it is a basic fact that if Store A begins to sell Product M, while Store B waits until X amount of time later to begin sales - for whatever reason or motive - Store B will not be earning income for product M for some duration of time (X), while Store A will be. I will freely admit that this is a completely un-nuanced application of oversimplified economic theory.
However for arguments sake - let's say they have to offer pre-orders or are at a real risk if they don't. They certainly could offer refunds to those that buy it without the information that they themselves don't have. It's not like the customer gets instant access to the content then are asking for a refund after printing it off the site. They just remove the pre-order from the account.
Putting aside the fact that DDB has, to my knowledge, never offered refunds for any digital content, and thus not offering a refund for this digital content is merely continuation of company practice - not some intentional choice targeting this specific product for some nefarious act of consumer fraud... Then the desired(?) result of this suggestion is that DDB offer refunds for preorders if a customer later changes their mind and the digital product has not yet been released. Is there a substantive difference between the result of this suggestion, and simply waiting to preorder or not preorder until there is sufficient information to make that decision? Is there a reason for the feeling of immediacy here? Am I unaware of some perk or limited time offer going on that adds pressure to pre-order now instead of later, after more consideration?
There are plenty of things they could do that would make this sit better with their customer base. They have chosen to do none of it (or at least not stated they will offer refunds if people are unsatisfied once they find out) for the almighty dollar and being a business doesn't excuse that.
I'll also be honest if DDB is going to bat for anyone it's themselves (as you say they are a business) - likely to reduce the blow back / work hours spent on managing content.
All I mean to point out is that - in the absence of an official statement of motive - it seems to me that assigning a selfish or negative motivation to DDB's apparent actions because that's just how greedy companies behave is no more or less valid than ascribing a positive, or at least, neutral motivation based entirely on a "business" rationale as well. Yes, corporate greed can absolutely generate a disinterest in the concerns or benefits of the customers... but it is not unreasonable to remember that corporate self-interest can also generate the complete opposite - cultivate an ongoing concern for the satisfaction of the customer - as well. After all, even a greedy DDB will make no profit if their practices drive all their customers away to their competitors.
Also as stated before WotC should have been the one to put a halt to digital pre-orders across the board if even one of their partners wasn't informed how it will work. With WotC failing to do that DDB should have come up with their own solution (prehaps not sell it yet if allowed to wait - or offer refunds).
In the end I'm still strongly of the opinion either don't offer pre-orders or offer refunds because "I don't know how buying this will affect your account/content but if you do buy it and aren't in the know.. well... GOTCHA no refunds" sucks.
I might be wrong, but I am under the impression that if a company has a long-established "no refunds" policy in place, the fact that an upcoming product will not have refunds would not be considered a retail "gotcha."
I might also be wrong, but I am fairly sure that there are not any DDB users who are being forced to place a pre-order. It seems relatively simple to me that if you don't agree with or have a good opinion about a company's pre-order policies... you probably won't buy pre-orders from that company. Is there some nuance that I am missing that makes this a more complex and/or more consequential issue?
Other than perhaps assigning a meanspirited motive to a company, and staffers, who might not be as bad as all that, I really don't see anyone arguing that your opinion needs to change, or that you must purchase a pre-order that you don't want. There's simply a pre-order that is now available, if you want it; you have said that you don't, but it seems to me like there is something more you want in response than a genial shrug and an "okay."
If you do not like the description given, do not pre-order. Wait until you can review the book and then make an informed decision on your purchase. I do not understand the Hunga Tonga-Hunga Ha'apai reenactment over this. Pre-orders for any product on DDB or anywhere else are made on a bit of faith. If you have enjoyed the recent content, odds are you will enjoy the next one they are releasing.
Incidentally, did you have any response for the content of my remarks, or was it only this bit of poor word choice that you found fault with?
Mostly the argument that wasn't, so to speak, but I do think consumers are allowed to voice dissatisfaction with a company they support. "Simply not buying the product" doesn't necessarily send a clear message, particularly when it comes to pre-orders. M³ is contentious for its content as much as, if not more than, the way DDB is currently handling it. There are many reasons why someone might not buy it or might wait to buy it, so simply seeing limited sales numbers doesn't really tell DDB it's because of poor communication, doesn't tell WotC if it's because of the apparent change in policies, doesn't tell if it's because of content, etc. All it says is fewer people are willing to buy the book, and that doesn't help anyone with doing something about the dissatisfaction. Could a lot of the posts here have been worded in a more restrained fashion? Absolutely. Not sure if the depth of the issues would really come across properly through muted expression though, and most of these posts weren't really beyond the pale anyway (in my opinion at least).
Perhaps my own choices in wording have muted what I wanted to express - because I find relatively little fault with what you've said here. I'm uncertain if you were anticipating that I would?
Consumers absolutely have the right to opinions about business practices and products, as well as how product roll-outs are handled; I feel like I have already said as much - but just in case I was unclear: I don't take any exception to the having of opinions, or to discussing concerns with others, or to requesting additional information and clarification.
I would remind others, perhaps, that "the depth of the issues" is actually more relative than some appear to think. I offered myself up as an example - I honestly don't find anything about the M3 content to be contentious. I might be missing something important, or an idiot unable to grasp some nuance - but, equally, I might simply have a different concept about what I want from Wizards, from DDB, and from these products. In my frame of reference, there is hardly any depth of issue going on right now; a company has made a product and a retailer has opened it up for pre-orders.
True to form, I get even more chatty under the snip -
Questions and concerns about the nature of the product and the content therein should be addressed to the company who controls the IP. I personally give bonus points for civility in discourse unless there has been proof the company has been acting in bad faith, or there have been a documented pattern of consumer abuses and disregard (and in cases like that, by all means, escalate the hell outta that issue, loudly and with much dissent). Concerns and requests about the product implementation are a separate issue, and should probably be brought to the attention of the retailer - with the implicit understanding that IP and copyright laws have a role to play in what the retailer is legally allowed to do (or not do).
Personally, I would actually love to read through 7+ pages of discussion about what others are finding contentious about the content, what are some of the concerns related to developing trends or patterns in WotC products that we can theorize about indications for the future, and what constructive suggestions do users support when it comes to the question of DDB's upcoming implementation of this product. As it is probably obvious, I love words, and I adore people who use words with deliberate intent to communicate otherwise abstract ideas. Brilliant, right?!
I tried my best to refrain from personally accusatory statements or from any egregious fallacies - but I am only human, and so maybe it wasn't entirely clear. From my perspective, many - but not all- of the responses on this post have been needlessly rude. Some individuals, but not all, have seemed focused on calling out staff or volunteers, even by name!, rather than on articulating concerns and engaging with responses. This is not an indictment, merely an observation of fact that I felt might be a useful reminder in a forum topic that seemed to be needlessly incendiary. I have tried to follow the logic of the concerns and suggestions, but find many of them seem to be simultaneously combining content issues with implementation questions; these two elements being laid mostly on the shoulders of DDB - when they have little to no say in the former, and control only within a specific legal scope over the latter.
And, at the end of the day, what is or is not 'beyond the pale' is also down to personal experiences and opinions. The most obvious exception being the following reminder at the top of the text editor box when a post or a reply is being written:
When posting, please be sure that the content of your post does not violate our Terms of Service.
In case the DDB Team is tracking the sentiments of this thread, I will certainly not be pre-ordering this book, mostly because I have not been told in any of the marketing for it how it will affect content I already have. This is essentially an anthology errata update. It is a book that makes sense in print and only makes sense in digital if I don't already own the content that is being errata'd. While I don't mind my content being updated, I do mind purchasing that content a second time unnecessarily. Especially in a non-refundable context.
Respectfully, please do better. If you can't tell me what you are selling in regards to the content you have already sold, then don't flip the pre-sale button.
I've been reading this thread with interest but hesitated on putting in my two cents because I don't think anyone's minds will be changed by anything I or anyone else says. I believe all of you have a right to your feelings about this but I agree with Amata.
I also would like to point out that the pre-sales banner isn't just targeted at people who already own content. If you do, then yes you have a right to want more information. However, many people on DDB do not own the MM, Volo's or other similar books. When I first starting using DDB I was just a player. I used the free tools and didn't make my first purchase until I wanted a subclass not available for free. I then purchased the Players Handbook. Slowly but surely I amassed other books often waiting until something was on sale. I didn't purchase the MM or Volo's until I began DMing and even then I put it off until I started playing online and found myself constantly buying monsters a la cart. I think there are a lot of people like me.
There are probably people who heard there was going to be a new book and put off purchasing the MM and Volo's because they want the new one instead. I was going to purchase the hardcover MM as a gift for a friend who is starting to DM. I decided wait because I would rather give him the new book. That is just a personal decision on my part.
In other words there are people on DDB who are new to D&D and new DDB. They aren't interested in what the old lore is and don't have to worry about their previous purchases being updated or whatever. The pre-order is more for them than us. As for the rest of us, we don't have to pre-order. I never do - not even for the hardcover books. I don't need anything right away, the minute it is available. I take my time. That is just me. The book will be out in May. That is plenty of time for DDB to let us know what's up and for us to decide if we want to pre-order or not.
As far as Fantasy Grounds. They may have a slightly different license than DDB so they can say "hey guys, if you want to use this, you have to buy it." It's also possible that DDB is trying to work out something different with Wizards because they are going to bat for us. We don't know. We aren't privy to those discussions and probably will never be.
I want to make it clear that I understand everyone's feelings about this and you have a right to them. I don't feel the same way and I have a right to my feelings about the situation. I'm just saying we should think about the other users of this site who have been waiting for that pre-order banner and would be disappointed if they couldn't do that.
Gosh, thank you very much for your editorial input - internal inconsistency drives me crazy, too! I will definitely go back to my original response and edit for clarity's sake, despite having posted a clarifying remark to better inform that bit of my thinking.
My current idea is to adjust the statement to something like "the only other info I might add is... " -or maybe delete that part entirely based on other following comments indicating that it was an automatic thing, and not any kind of actual discount? Please let me know if you have a preference, and/or if my edits are insufficient for whatever point you were trying to make. For the sake of staying on-topic, feel free to send other editorial comments about SPAG and word-choice to me in a direct message.
Incidentally, did you have any response for the content of my remarks, or was it only this bit of poor word choice that you found fault with?
💜 Spes Æternum Oritur 💜
I do think that those folks are the least impacted by the lack of information so while I appreciate you trying to look out for them they are also the ones who will lose out the least in the whole deal.
They don't have content now and won't be affected much if it turns out to be redundant and won't have the need to ask for a refund....
Transparency of what you are going to get as a product is always a good thing and there is little reason to NOT include it ever.
Mostly the argument that wasn't, so to speak, but I do think consumers are allowed to voice dissatisfaction with a company they support. "Simply not buying the product" doesn't necessarily send a clear message, particularly when it comes to pre-orders. M³ is contentious for its content as much as, if not more than, the way DDB is currently handling it. There are many reasons why someone might not buy it or might wait to buy it, so simply seeing limited sales numbers doesn't really tell DDB it's because of poor communication, doesn't tell WotC if it's because of the apparent change in policies, doesn't tell if it's because of content, etc. All it says is fewer people are willing to buy the book, and that doesn't help anyone with doing something about the dissatisfaction. Could a lot of the posts here have been worded in a more restrained fashion? Absolutely. Not sure if the depth of the issues would really come across properly through muted expression though, and most of these posts weren't really beyond the pale anyway (in my opinion at least).
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I agree this is not going to harm them or you. It also wouldn't have harmed you had WotC in combination with their partners delayed the pre-order date until WotC could inform their partners how it would be implemented on their platforms. We wouldn't have known any better as it's a pre-order - there is no reason to be selling it before then.
This IS baiting people who don't know better. Yes I know people keep advising people to wait if we aren't comfortable spending our money on unknowns - that's fair that's probably what most here are doing. However, completely reprehensible and worse is to sell something when you don't have that information. Whoever made the decision that the pre-order HAD to start before that information was available to WotC partners really screwed up.
To me it's not about the money specifically. It's the total lack of consideration for digital customers by both WotC and DDB (DDB shouldn't be doing no refunds on this book considering even they lack this information - this is assuming they are forced to put it up otherwise it's solely on DDB)
The problem isn't for those people or people like me who don't have any of those books and so aren't affected by this. The problem is that for people who have bought those previous books already. Let's run through a hypothetical scenario - one that I'm not so sure is so hypothetical.
A D&D enthusiast who doesn't frequent the forums buys Volo's and most of the sourcebooks on DDB. Recently, they see the advert for MMM, and wants the updates for their games. They decide that they might as well get it on preorder, because why not? They pay for it. May comes around, and they find that pretty much everything they wanted comes free (for them, having purchased the other books) anyway. They've just paid for their content twice, because DDB/WotC/whoever hid that fact from them. Even if they realise tomorrow, after they paid for it, they can't get a refund.
That's not ethical. The book was announced months ago - this was a detail that should have been hashed out back then, not now the banner has encouraged people buy without knowledge of what they're actually receiving. It's not a problem that they've put a banner out or encouraged preorders - not my cup of tea after the Mario Tennis Aces debacle, but if others want to do it, great - but the product details really should have been released either simultaneously or before they did so.
That's why everyone is up in arms over it. I wish people would be nicer about it, but I understand the problem. I personally don't care which way they go with it, and I can see valid arguments either way, but the information should be presented before sale. At the least, any preorders made before that information is released should be refundable.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I feel like this is such a great point, it bears repetition for the sake of taking a moment to stop and really consider its implications. Thank you MorriganMacha for stating this so plainly.
The truth is that we aren't privy to those details - and, yeah, for all we know DDB hasn't said much yet because they're in talks with Wizard because they want better for us. It is within the realm of possibilities, just as much as "DDB is purposefully being uncommunicative and demanding money from us bc reasons xx-_- xx" I have seen Fantasy Grounds brought up in counterpoint to the official "we don't have anything yet, plz be patient" from DDB and from other users.
I might suggest that using FG as a rebuttal actually weakens the part of the argument suggesting that DDB should not have open preorders until they did have more information. If digital retail competitors like Fantasy Grounds, Roll20, or Foundry have taken what Wizards has stipulated, not pushed back, and opened up preorders with the unfair "you want it, you buy it (again)" then DDB has been trapped in a corner. As a company, there is absolutely no way that DDB can afford to let competitors offer preorders without also starting DDB preorders; like many of y'all, I have worked in niche retail and if we sat to think it through, we'd most likely agree that this would be a terrible critical hit for a business.
If DDB has further details to work out with WotC, or decisions to be made regarding implementation, they really only have two choices: start pre-orders alongside competitors and follow up with "more information pending" or hold DDB preorders until there are more details to release alongside and watch newbies and potential new customers walk away to competitors during the months of interim dead time.
I must acknowledge that some of this logic is speculative. However, the alternative currently being suggested is that DDB is knowingly generating a ton of bad-faith with their users for no particular reason. I don't follow the logic in that - even if I put aside optimism and faith in notions of inherent goodness, I am still left with the underlying logic of enlightened self-interest. It just wouldn't be best business practice for DDB to behave that way. This is part of why I am comfortable with waiting in good faith and confidence that there might be more going on that I am not privy to - and that the opening of presales has more to do with market competition than with corporate greed.
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I'm sorry but your saying that they are doing something terrible because their competitors have a better licensing agreement (or at least more straight forward). That doesn't make it better. Just because they are a business doesn't excuse it. DDB would not be at risk of failing if they didn't offer pre-orders for this book until they had the information.
However for arguments sake - let's say they have to offer pre-orders or are at a real risk if they don't. They certainly could offer refunds to those that buy it without the information that they themselves don't have. It's not like the customer gets instant access to the content then are asking for a refund after printing it off the site. They just remove the pre-order from the account.
There are plenty of things they could do that would make this sit better with their customer base. They have chosen to do none of it (or at least not stated they will offer refunds if people are unsatisfied once they find out) for the almighty dollar and being a business doesn't excuse that.
I'll also be honest if DDB is going to bat for anyone it's themselves (as you say they are a business) - likely to reduce the blow back / work hours spent on managing content.
Also as stated before WotC should have been the one to put a halt to digital pre-orders across the board if even one of their partners wasn't informed how it will work. With WotC failing to do that DDB should have come up with their own solution (prehaps not sell it yet if allowed to wait - or offer refunds).
In the end I'm still strongly of the opinion either don't offer pre-orders or offer refunds because "I don't know how buying this will affect your account/content but if you do buy it and aren't in the know.. well... GOTCHA no refunds" sucks.
That we're not privy to those details is the point. We don't have to know every detail of what's going on, but we should know enough to make an informed purchase if we're going to buy something currently for sale on this site. That's all most people are arguing, really, if you look past the emotions and parse out the essence.
It's increasingly unlikely that we end up in a situation where the updates to existing content will be made available for free to those who already own that content. If so then at least those buying M³ before that's clarified who are in that position don't have to beat themselves up over having spent money, but the fact remains that DDB's current (WotC mandated) policy of updating content automatically and for free casts some doubt about that. That shouldn't be the case for a product not only being sold but actively promoted on the site.
My advice to everyone is not to pre-order unless you don't care about any aspect of any of this, and certainly not to pre-order right now. There is nothing to gain by pre-ordering now over pre-ordering the day before the book is released on DDB. We can wait until more info is provided without losing out on anything. But again, that doesn't really pass on the message of any discontent we may feel about the proceedings, it's not a step towards resolving this situation or preventing it from happening again in the future (which is not a negligible concern, given that a system update has been announced for 2024) and it doesn't change the simple fact that all of this shouldn't have been allowed to come to pass in the first place.
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Let me put it this way: I would prefer it if the updates in M3 were kept separate from the existing content and I had to spend money again. Were that the case, and more importantly KNOWN TO BE THE CASE, I would have no beef with DDB offering the book for preorder.
But we don't know that. Nobody knows that. Apparently not even DDB, and they're selling the bloody thing.
Selling a product one does not have and cannot define is the province of schysters, hoods, and con men. It's nothing a respectable business should be doing, and the fact that some people are happily preordering anyways does not excuse the shoddy, anticonsumer business decision.
In that bigass post earlier where you took me to task without giving me the courtesy of naming me, you told me it was rude to be dissatisfied with something a business was doing and that if I didn't like it I was welcome to simply not spend my money without having to complain about it. I would argue it's a lot more rude to sell someone something, and then only decide after the fact and after you've squirreled away their money unrecoverably whether or not they already owned the thing you sold them.
Was I vicious about it? Sure. They've known this was coming for months. There's been at least a dozen other forum threads asking this question in a Calm And Civil Manner. Calm And Civil got us absolutely nowhere. We were deliberately, actively, and quite possibly even maliciously ignored. So now they get the Hot & Spicy version. If they didn't want Hot & Spicy, they should've sorted this out before, when people were doing Calm And Civil.
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Whelp... I came to see if the new book was worth buying, as i already own every source book DDB has to offer, but its looking like the new book is A) Im gunna get it all for free anyway which is gunna irritate the hell out of me if they remove the stuff i already paid for and am still bloody using. or B) they add it alongside existing stuff. Either way its looking like a massive dumpster fire, and honestly it seems quite shady to sell me my own pre existing content for mostly full price.
Sadly this will be the first sourcebook i do not preorder, or even get at all. :c
Hey Davyd. Curious: how are you sure of that? Have you spoken to someone employed at Dndbeyond who has said that? Because international compliance could easily be overlooked. Keep in mind that in order to pursue a complaint EU residents would have to prove that dndbeyond didn't know the nature of it. While I think that it is true that no one we are allowed to talk to as mere clients knows, I think that it is highly likely that a number of people at the company know exactly what their intentions are. They simply choose not to say because they believe that the answer will be disadvantageous to them. There is no moral component of "hey, we should be careful not to defraud our clients". If there were, then they would have bit the bullet and either delayed releasing pre-orders or else been clear how the product would be implemented, or openly said that they did not know.
But instead of even simply saying "It has yet to be determined how this will be implemented" they went with silence. And that is what this outcry is all about.
Moral of the story - no matter what DDB would have said y'all would be upset. People were upset that they were silent, then Mellie came in and gave frankly the expected answer which was "we are working on it we are not sure yet" and the same people who cried out about silence are now made at "we don't know."
So please tell me how DDB was going to appease people who don't like silence or we don't know even though "Saying they aren't sure is better than silence" was a direct sentiment of those annoyed.
The ONLY reason to preorder things on DDB is simply to get all the added stuff that come out like portraits and BG - that is what preordering does so y'all really barking up the wrong tree in many sense. Is there some justification for questioning how it will be done - yes - does it need a flame filled thread to say you won't preorder, when preordering only gets you added bonuses and waiting till the book drop doesn't change that outcome? No.
I'm not happy with the answer, but it is an answer. That answer has led me to not renewing my master tier subscription and waiting for an answer as to how that content will be offered. Hopefully the Dev Update tomorrow is able to provide something.
I'm content, but I'm also allowed to be vocal about my opinion to everyone that they shouldn't buy the content until D&D Beyond comes out and says how that content will be presented.
When the book is released here on DDB there will be a toggle like we have for Tashas like when we create a character now that asks do you want to edit your origin, and do you want to edit your classthey will add do you want the 3M races or the old races or should I say Do you want the old busted races, or the new hotness races?
Clearly it'd have helped if people hadn't ended up upset in the first place, but that ship sailed a while ago and it takes a little bit more than a token attempt at reconciliation to fix something like that. That "we don't know" is a better answer than no answer at all doesn't mean it's a good answer either - it's really more of a veiled confirmation the blockage sits with WotC (who might have felt thrown under the bus if that confirmation had been loud and clear instead). I can understand why some may feel DDB could push a bit harder, but licence holders are expected to play nice and it's not like there's any real leverage over WotC to use. It is what it is, and people can be disappointed with that. Fact of the matter is, it's been piling on: cancelling two consecutive dev updates isn't a great look, whether there were reasons or not.
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If you do not like the description given, do not pre-order. Wait until you can review the book and then make an informed decision on your purchase. I do not understand the Hunga Tonga-Hunga Ha'apai reenactment over this. Pre-orders for any product on DDB or anywhere else are made on a bit of faith. If you have enjoyed the recent content, odds are you will enjoy the next one they are releasing.
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Perhaps my own choices in wording have muted what I wanted to express - because I find relatively little fault with what you've said here. I'm uncertain if you were anticipating that I would?
Consumers absolutely have the right to opinions about business practices and products, as well as how product roll-outs are handled; I feel like I have already said as much - but just in case I was unclear: I don't take any exception to the having of opinions, or to discussing concerns with others, or to requesting additional information and clarification.
I would remind others, perhaps, that "the depth of the issues" is actually more relative than some appear to think. I offered myself up as an example - I honestly don't find anything about the M3 content to be contentious. I might be missing something important, or an idiot unable to grasp some nuance - but, equally, I might simply have a different concept about what I want from Wizards, from DDB, and from these products. In my frame of reference, there is hardly any depth of issue going on right now; a company has made a product and a retailer has opened it up for pre-orders.
True to form, I get even more chatty under the snip -
Questions and concerns about the nature of the product and the content therein should be addressed to the company who controls the IP. I personally give bonus points for civility in discourse unless there has been proof the company has been acting in bad faith, or there have been a documented pattern of consumer abuses and disregard (and in cases like that, by all means, escalate the hell outta that issue, loudly and with much dissent). Concerns and requests about the product implementation are a separate issue, and should probably be brought to the attention of the retailer - with the implicit understanding that IP and copyright laws have a role to play in what the retailer is legally allowed to do (or not do).
Personally, I would actually love to read through 7+ pages of discussion about what others are finding contentious about the content, what are some of the concerns related to developing trends or patterns in WotC products that we can theorize about indications for the future, and what constructive suggestions do users support when it comes to the question of DDB's upcoming implementation of this product. As it is probably obvious, I love words, and I adore people who use words with deliberate intent to communicate otherwise abstract ideas. Brilliant, right?!
I tried my best to refrain from personally accusatory statements or from any egregious fallacies - but I am only human, and so maybe it wasn't entirely clear. From my perspective, many - but not all- of the responses on this post have been needlessly rude. Some individuals, but not all, have seemed focused on calling out staff or volunteers, even by name!, rather than on articulating concerns and engaging with responses. This is not an indictment, merely an observation of fact that I felt might be a useful reminder in a forum topic that seemed to be needlessly incendiary. I have tried to follow the logic of the concerns and suggestions, but find many of them seem to be simultaneously combining content issues with implementation questions; these two elements being laid mostly on the shoulders of DDB - when they have little to no say in the former, and control only within a specific legal scope over the latter.
And, at the end of the day, what is or is not 'beyond the pale' is also down to personal experiences and opinions.
The most obvious exception being the following reminder at the top of the text editor box when a post or a reply is being written:
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