I am beyond furious to find out that between WotC and/or DDB, this has not been the case. My shock and dismay are immeasurable, and I feel incoherently aghast. I have had to go put the kettle on, I am so upset by what I have learned in the course of this thread.
You might be even more shocked to find out there are people who see the fact that digital versions of the books get updates as a good thing. So, you know, your way of seeing things is fine (if perhaps, no offense, a little overly emotionally charged) but it's certainly not the only way. Free your mind, and the rest will follow. ;)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I am beyond furious to find out that between WotC and/or DDB, this has not been the case. My shock and dismay are immeasurable, and I feel incoherently aghast. I have had to go put the kettle on, I am so upset by what I have learned in the course of this thread.
You might be even more shocked to find out there are people who see the fact that digital versions of the books get updates as a good thing. So, you know, your way of seeing things is fine (if perhaps, no offense, a little overly emotionally charged) but it's certainly not the only way. Free your mind, and the rest will follow. ;)
Okay, so, an idea (I admit it might not be a good one, just popped in, so who knows) what if WotC and DDB had announced they would keep both versions (pre and post MMM) but had also announced at the time of pre-sale that for a limited time (say 30 or 60 days from the time of the pre-sale announcement) anyone who currently owns the previous books can choose to opt-in to having their books updated to the new version at no cost. Those who don't opt-in keep the old version. After the 30 or 60 days, if you want the new changes you have to buy the new book?
I suppose the point is moot now, but maybe it's an option for similar things in the future (although DDB and WotC could still choose to offer now for a limited time).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Overall I think the major concern is that if you pre-order and the book ends up being errata and others don't have to pay for the same content as it is updated automatically (as was done with the examples of artificer and Bladesinger) then you can't get a refund per their policy and paid for nothing.
Some think it's not providing enough information to make an informed purchase which could be illegal in some countries.
Also people are upset about the lack of communication from DDB staff in general as there is sufficient evidence to suggest staff are not routinely engaging the community. This comes in the form of lack of posts on the forum, lack of discord activity, and cancellation of Dev Talks. Even the other social media posts are majority marketing and non-business related chatter.
These combined has seemingly angered a likely minority of total users but more than likely power users of the platform.
With books and subscriptions you are looking at close to a $800 worth of investment into the platform with people looking for answers to what they view as very simple questions about the product before purchasing.
I tried my best to make it about objective information but let me know where I could be more neutral to provide better context.
I'm still trying to get caught back up on things posted while I was asleep, etc... but, just a quick "thank you!" to OptimusGrimus (great name, btw).
It has taken me the first eleven pages to sort through to the realization that there were multiple branches of problems/concerns stemming from this one situation. I shoulda known better, honestly. What's the saying - "if there are 9 witches in a room, there will be 13 different instructions on how to ride your broomstick"?
lol, I am afraid I might be growing senile in my old age.
I am beyond furious to find out that between WotC and/or DDB, this has not been the case. My shock and dismay are immeasurable, and I feel incoherently aghast. I have had to go put the kettle on, I am so upset by what I have learned in the course of this thread.
You might be even more shocked to find out there are people who see the fact that digital versions of the books get updates as a good thing. So, you know, your way of seeing things is fine (if perhaps, no offense, a little overly emotionally charged) but it's certainly not the only way. Free your mind, and the rest will follow. ;)
Okay, so, an idea (I admit it might not be a good one, just popped in, so who knows) what if WotC and DDB had announced they would keep both versions (pre and post MMM) but had also announced at the time of pre-sale that for a limited time (say 30 or 60 days from the time of the pre-sale announcement) anyone who currently owns the previous books can choose to opt-in to having their books updated to the new version at no cost. Those who don't opt-in keep the old version. After the 30 or 60 days, if you want the new changes you have to buy the new book?
I suppose the point is moot now, but maybe it's an option for similar things in the future (although DDB and WotC could still choose to offer now for a limited time).
It's not going to happen, but if we're talking hypotheticals it might still be a little bit more complicated than you imagine. What happens if someone buys one of the older books after the cut-off point? What if you want the new book but don't want the mechanical changes? What happens when two people who made opposite choices share content with each other? Why deal with additional potential points of failure? I'm sure you can give me potential answers to these questions, but that's not really the point - the point is that any of the decisions made for these small issues will almost certainly lead to dissatisfied customers all over again. "Why are they doing it that way, I'd like it much better this way" and more complaining and people arguing back and forth. Any idea that provides additional service to the customers is a nice idea, but not necessarily a good idea.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
The particulars of how this will all work have not been announced yet. What has been announced is the M3 will be considered its own, new content. if you own, as an example, the kobold species from Volo's Guide to DM Headaches, the new kobold in M3 will not override that stat block. You will be able to use the existing Volo's version of the kobold, and to use the M3 version you will need to purchase M3. Same with monster stat blocks, presumably. The how is foggy yet, as the book is still most of five months out and they haven't begun implementing it yet.
. . . I now have a very bad feeling that this is going to become an oft repeated copypaste for the next four months.... 😆
I'm sure you can give me potential answers to these questions
No, you're probably right. Like I said, just an idea. I'd love it if there was a way to make everyone happy. :-/
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
I am beyond furious to find out that between WotC and/or DDB, this has not been the case. My shock and dismay are immeasurable, and I feel incoherently aghast. I have had to go put the kettle on, I am so upset by what I have learned in the course of this thread.
You might be even more shocked to find out there are people who see the fact that digital versions of the books get updates as a good thing. So, you know, your way of seeing things is fine (if perhaps, no offense, a little overly emotionally charged) but it's certainly not the only way. Free your mind, and the rest will follow. ;)
To be fair, my reaction in this specific context had more to do with the inconsistent methods as well as the seeming disregard for implementation of well-established industry and legal standards/practices. Not the idea of updating of a digital asset, per se.
I play video games, for example, and I love me some patch day updates and QoL fixes. By all means, balance those classes and racial perks. Auto-update my phone's apps with the spelling fixed and that obnoxious glitch repaired.... But, and this seems to still be relevant to this topic despite having received direct information in the Dev Update - but there is a generally accepted and standardized definition of errata - its not like businesses and companies just make that shit up as they go along (pardon my language).
By standards and practices, by definition, the content of M3 is not merely a duplicate set of base content with errata applied. If it were, as many many many have pointed out, it would be wrong (ethically, legally) to package errata as its own published material and charge money for it all while marketing it as New and Additional and More.
Anyway, yay, we have confirmation that M3 is not, and will not be implemented as, errata! Yippie, and done. Right? It's a tiny bit bemusing to see that the Dev Update was followed up by a handful of posts saying, essentially, "thanks for the information. Now tell me what it means..." I feel a little like if we're not careful, we will all accidentally roll a Nat 1, and be overtaken by an endless semiotic void of chaos and abstraction.
But, and this seems to still be relevant to this topic despite having received direct information in the Dev Update - but there is a generally accepted and standardized definition of errata - its not like businesses and companies just make that shit up as they go along (pardon my language).
You may say that, but I don't know that that's completely true. Or rather, even if we were to define errata as corrections of errors there's the question of what is considered an error. Not being the way it should be sounds like an error to me, and how something should be can be pretty broad and can be something you change your mind on. There wasn't anything wrong per se with the original ranger class, it was perfectly serviceable, but a lot of players were nonetheless not happy with it so WotC - years after the release of the PHB - decided to change it. It had become clear that the original design was a mistake, so they corrected that mistake. And that was treated as an erratum, and it seems to me that that doesn't contradict the definition of errata. If WotC considers something they created to not be the way it should be, that qualifies it as an error whether you, I or anyone else agrees with that assessment or not.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
But, and this seems to still be relevant to this topic despite having received direct information in the Dev Update - but there is a generally accepted and standardized definition of errata - its not like businesses and companies just make that shit up as they go along (pardon my language).
You may say that, but I don't know that that's completely true. Or rather, even if we were to define errata as corrections of errors there's the question of what is considered an error. Not being the way it should be sounds like an error to me, and how something should be can be pretty broad and can be something you change your mind on. There wasn't anything wrong per se with the original ranger class, it was perfectly serviceable, but a lot of players were nonetheless not happy with it so WotC - years after the release of the PHB - decided to change it. It had become clear that the original design was a mistake, so they corrected that mistake. And that was treated as an erratum, and it seems to me that that doesn't contradict the definition of errata. If WotC considers something they created to not be the way it should be, that qualifies it as an error whether you, I or anyone else agrees with that assessment or not.
I look at it the same way as I do from a software perspective. You can push an update that is a "bug fix" that changes the existing functionality, or you can push an update that adds a new feature. They're both updates, but the former is an errata and the latter is not. There's technically no limit on the scope of a bug fix, it can be correcting a "typo" or it can in fact completely change how a piece of the software behaves.
If Adventurers League allows both old and new versions of player races for example, then we know M3 is optional updates. If they only allow the new version, then it's errata, no matter how it's phrased. Let's see what they do with that.
If Adventurers League allows both old and new versions of player races for example, then we know M3 is optional updates. If they only allow the new version, then it's errata, no matter how it's phrased. Let's see what they do with that.
Don't know about that. They might feel it's inconsistent to have both exist in the same campaign (not sure I'd agree, but it's an argument I can see someone make) so the idea could just be there can only be one and in that case they're going with the more recent one since that sells books. ;)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
so has anyone figured out if all the races and monsters will auto update? or will there but two of everything now? I have been trying to figure out how they are going to do it, but at this point i dont think THEY know. I am hoping for a toggle, to turn it on or off. Though i have a feeling they are going to force it on everyone no matter what.
so has anyone figured out if all the races and monsters will auto update? or will there but two of everything now? I have been trying to figure out how they are going to do it, but at this point i dont think THEY know. I am hoping for a toggle, to turn it on or off. Though i have a feeling they are going to force it on everyone no matter what.
i missed that post. In defense there were 16 pages to read. So if i DO get it though, i will still have access to my old stuff? if so sign me up. I like me options
i missed that post. In defense there were 16 pages to read. So if i DO get it though, i will still have access to my old stuff? if so sign me up. I like me options
Edit: thanks for the help
That's what it appears to be like, yes.
Its just not clear if it will be double content, a toggle or some other solution.
i missed that post. In defense there were 16 pages to read. So if i DO get it though, i will still have access to my old stuff? if so sign me up. I like me options
Edit: thanks for the help
That's what it appears to be like, yes.
Its just not clear if it will be double content, a toggle or some other solution.
I'm betting it will be a toggle, either on the create a character homepage like the stuff in Tashas or on the race selection screen.
So this won't replace my existing content. I have the legendary bundle and I want to run a more generic campaign let's say. Now that I have MMM every time I look up a monster am I going to get two entries I need to look at and choose from? Or do I need to turn off some books when I see dupes but if a monster seems like it is missing turn them back on? What if I didn't want to purchase the books because the idea of owning the books digitally was they would update automatically. Collecting content from one book and tweaking it slightly isn't like a full re-write.
I guess I still don't understand what this book means and how it affects the content I have on the site.
I am disappointed we have to pay full price for re-hashed content. I understand if you buy paper you do the same thing but with paper, there isn't any way to control it. Digital is a different story. WOTC could easily tell DDB X price if they don't own blah blah blah and Y Price if they do. I don't see this as a failing of DDB I just hope they are pushing for us.
So this won't replace my existing content. I have the legendary bundle and I want to run a more generic campaign let's say. Now that I have MMM every time I look up a monster am I going to get two entries I need to look at and choose from? Or do I need to turn off some books when I see dupes but if a monster seems like it is missing turn them back on? What if I didn't want to purchase the books because the idea of owning the books digitally was they would update automatically. Collecting content from one book and tweaking it slightly isn't like a full re-write.
I guess I still don't understand what this book means and how it affects the content I have on the site.
I am disappointed we have to pay full price for re-hashed content. I understand if you buy paper you do the same thing but with paper, there isn't any way to control it. Digital is a different story. WOTC could easily tell DDB X price if they don't own blah blah blah and Y Price if they do. I don't see this as a failing of DDB I just hope they are pushing for us.
Other sites give the DM the option to choose. So I think DnDb has the same option to let us choose? With character creation we already have that option, so nothing is going to change there, I guess?
This is silly if we own all of the books that contains everything in the new book we should be receiving this for no charge. Are they really going to have two versions of each monster in DDB, one for the old books and one for the new book?
I'll be really interested in how they make things backwards compatible. I will not be purchasing M3. Odds are I will not be purchasing 5.5E source books either . If WotC keeps to its word about backwards compatibily I will keep buying adventures. If something does catch my attention if M3, or 5.5E when it comes out, I'll do what any good DM would; steal it, either by buying it piecemeal via D&D Beyond, or by homebrewing it as a 5E compatible variant. From reviews on YouTube, there is really nothing I want in M3. The race changes, races I already own, are just the same races that have either been butchered or been supercharge with power creep. And I already have more monsters than I'll ever use.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Watch your back, conserve your ammo, and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
You might be even more shocked to find out there are people who see the fact that digital versions of the books get updates as a good thing. So, you know, your way of seeing things is fine (if perhaps, no offense, a little overly emotionally charged) but it's certainly not the only way. Free your mind, and the rest will follow. ;)
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Okay, so, an idea (I admit it might not be a good one, just popped in, so who knows) what if WotC and DDB had announced they would keep both versions (pre and post MMM) but had also announced at the time of pre-sale that for a limited time (say 30 or 60 days from the time of the pre-sale announcement) anyone who currently owns the previous books can choose to opt-in to having their books updated to the new version at no cost. Those who don't opt-in keep the old version. After the 30 or 60 days, if you want the new changes you have to buy the new book?
I suppose the point is moot now, but maybe it's an option for similar things in the future (although DDB and WotC could still choose to offer now for a limited time).
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
I'm still trying to get caught back up on things posted while I was asleep, etc... but, just a quick "thank you!" to OptimusGrimus (great name, btw).
It has taken me the first eleven pages to sort through to the realization that there were multiple branches of problems/concerns stemming from this one situation. I shoulda known better, honestly. What's the saying - "if there are 9 witches in a room, there will be 13 different instructions on how to ride your broomstick"?
lol, I am afraid I might be growing senile in my old age.
💜 Spes Æternum Oritur 💜
It's not going to happen, but if we're talking hypotheticals it might still be a little bit more complicated than you imagine. What happens if someone buys one of the older books after the cut-off point? What if you want the new book but don't want the mechanical changes? What happens when two people who made opposite choices share content with each other? Why deal with additional potential points of failure? I'm sure you can give me potential answers to these questions, but that's not really the point - the point is that any of the decisions made for these small issues will almost certainly lead to dissatisfied customers all over again. "Why are they doing it that way, I'd like it much better this way" and more complaining and people arguing back and forth. Any idea that provides additional service to the customers is a nice idea, but not necessarily a good idea.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
. . . I now have a very bad feeling that this is going to become an oft repeated copypaste for the next four months.... 😆
💜 Spes Æternum Oritur 💜
No, you're probably right. Like I said, just an idea. I'd love it if there was a way to make everyone happy. :-/
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
To be fair, my reaction in this specific context had more to do with the inconsistent methods as well as the seeming disregard for implementation of well-established industry and legal standards/practices. Not the idea of updating of a digital asset, per se.
I play video games, for example, and I love me some patch day updates and QoL fixes. By all means, balance those classes and racial perks. Auto-update my phone's apps with the spelling fixed and that obnoxious glitch repaired.... But, and this seems to still be relevant to this topic despite having received direct information in the Dev Update - but there is a generally accepted and standardized definition of errata - its not like businesses and companies just make that shit up as they go along (pardon my language).
By standards and practices, by definition, the content of M3 is not merely a duplicate set of base content with errata applied. If it were, as many many many have pointed out, it would be wrong (ethically, legally) to package errata as its own published material and charge money for it all while marketing it as New and Additional and More.
Anyway, yay, we have confirmation that M3 is not, and will not be implemented as, errata! Yippie, and done. Right? It's a tiny bit bemusing to see that the Dev Update was followed up by a handful of posts saying, essentially, "thanks for the information. Now tell me what it means..." I feel a little like if we're not careful, we will all accidentally roll a Nat 1, and be overtaken by an endless semiotic void of chaos and abstraction.
💜 Spes Æternum Oritur 💜
You may say that, but I don't know that that's completely true. Or rather, even if we were to define errata as corrections of errors there's the question of what is considered an error. Not being the way it should be sounds like an error to me, and how something should be can be pretty broad and can be something you change your mind on. There wasn't anything wrong per se with the original ranger class, it was perfectly serviceable, but a lot of players were nonetheless not happy with it so WotC - years after the release of the PHB - decided to change it. It had become clear that the original design was a mistake, so they corrected that mistake. And that was treated as an erratum, and it seems to me that that doesn't contradict the definition of errata. If WotC considers something they created to not be the way it should be, that qualifies it as an error whether you, I or anyone else agrees with that assessment or not.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I look at it the same way as I do from a software perspective. You can push an update that is a "bug fix" that changes the existing functionality, or you can push an update that adds a new feature. They're both updates, but the former is an errata and the latter is not. There's technically no limit on the scope of a bug fix, it can be correcting a "typo" or it can in fact completely change how a piece of the software behaves.
If Adventurers League allows both old and new versions of player races for example, then we know M3 is optional updates. If they only allow the new version, then it's errata, no matter how it's phrased. Let's see what they do with that.
Don't know about that. They might feel it's inconsistent to have both exist in the same campaign (not sure I'd agree, but it's an argument I can see someone make) so the idea could just be there can only be one and in that case they're going with the more recent one since that sells books. ;)
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
so has anyone figured out if all the races and monsters will auto update? or will there but two of everything now? I have been trying to figure out how they are going to do it, but at this point i dont think THEY know. I am hoping for a toggle, to turn it on or off. Though i have a feeling they are going to force it on everyone no matter what.
This was answered here for the most part.
comment #255
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
i missed that post. In defense there were 16 pages to read. So if i DO get it though, i will still have access to my old stuff? if so sign me up. I like me options
Edit: thanks for the help
That's what it appears to be like, yes.
Its just not clear if it will be double content, a toggle or some other solution.
I am also here.
Am snek.
I'm betting it will be a toggle, either on the create a character homepage like the stuff in Tashas or on the race selection screen.
So this won't replace my existing content. I have the legendary bundle and I want to run a more generic campaign let's say. Now that I have MMM every time I look up a monster am I going to get two entries I need to look at and choose from? Or do I need to turn off some books when I see dupes but if a monster seems like it is missing turn them back on? What if I didn't want to purchase the books because the idea of owning the books digitally was they would update automatically. Collecting content from one book and tweaking it slightly isn't like a full re-write.
I guess I still don't understand what this book means and how it affects the content I have on the site.
I am disappointed we have to pay full price for re-hashed content. I understand if you buy paper you do the same thing but with paper, there isn't any way to control it. Digital is a different story. WOTC could easily tell DDB X price if they don't own blah blah blah and Y Price if they do. I don't see this as a failing of DDB I just hope they are pushing for us.
Other sites give the DM the option to choose. So I think DnDb has the same option to let us choose? With character creation we already have that option, so nothing is going to change there, I guess?
I'll be really interested in how they make things backwards compatible. I will not be purchasing M3. Odds are I will not be purchasing 5.5E source books either . If WotC keeps to its word about backwards compatibily I will keep buying adventures. If something does catch my attention if M3, or 5.5E when it comes out, I'll do what any good DM would; steal it, either by buying it piecemeal via D&D Beyond, or by homebrewing it as a 5E compatible variant.
From reviews on YouTube, there is really nothing I want in M3. The race changes, races I already own, are just the same races that have either been butchered or been supercharge with power creep. And I already have more monsters than I'll ever use.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1201-faq-for-mordenkainen-presents-monsters-of-the
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting