After being led into a hallway in the kobold lair, dozens of intellect devourers drop from holes in the ceiling and along the walls, oil starts to spray from fire sprinkler devices above as the floor collapses on round 3 dropping everyone into a pit containing a giant gelatinous cube.
should the spellcaster still be able to levitate after his intellect gets devoured, toss a match. Impossible to concentrate long while on fire…
When you say TPK are you ok with brain devoured and body incinerated and bones dissolved in acid?
But Nem, how did the kobolds get so many intellect devourers? Have you ever met a kobold with a 3 intelligence? He is very difficult to pick out from the rest.
It might be a bit rail-roady, but seriously, why would the world always set up "fair" fights? Give 'em a Kobayashi Maru. (And if they're freaking out too much, it's ok to just quietly let them know they're kinda supposed to die here. Try not to, though - it's more dramatic).
The biggest problem is accounting for the many MANY ways level 16 characters might have up their sleeves to escape. Something like the one-way-death-portal might be good there, since you can say it's a pocket universe so there's no way to teleport or whatever. You'd want some folk to dispell magic too.
See, this kind of stuff is exactly why I'm recommending against being anything less than completely honest about what's happening. You inevitably get in a situation where everyone is pulling out tricks to escape or buy some time or bring everyone back from the dead and the DM just starts saying, "Uh... that doesn't work because uh, you can't teleport here."
It's the opposite of rewarding clever play, and it inevitably comes off as ham-fisted and unfair. Railroading isn't inherently bad. It only creates problems when you give your characters the impression that they have agency when they actually have none.
It's interesting that you mention Kobayashi Maru, because there are some key differences here - for one, KM isn't actually real. It's a simulation. No Star Trek actually ends that way because it's a deeply unsatisfying story. Second and more importantly, the whole concept was introduced just so Kirk - the hero - could later overcome it and state that he doesn't believe in no-win scenarios. That's so satisfying that they did it twice.
The players are Kirk in D&D. They want to be the exceptional cases that outwit the obstacles that seem insurmountable. That doesn't mean that they should expect that they can win every encounter, but there is a general expectation that they can at least survive every encounter, even if that just means one or more of them can escape. Exploiting that expectation is a cheap way to 'surprise' your players and it degrades trust at the table.
When the party takes a long rest, describe how, if anyone is standing guard a pulsing sound faintly fills their ears and they fall asleep. A noise startles everyone awake and they are in a different place. Then they get attacked but no magic works (anti magic field or something). A shadowy Something kills them and they awake, for real this time, finding this was all a dream but something in the dream itself reveals part of the plot or a weakness of the BBEG. It can all be narrated or fought out, but they die…but they don’t. It was a dream after all.
I agree, it’s probably bad to just TPK a group because of reasons. I DM’d a AD&D module once (think it was a third party module like Role Aids or maybe my homebrew) and at the end the party was outside fighting the BBEG who had a staff of the magi. I was a bit (ok, a lot) adversarial back then and when it looked like the party was going to win, the bad guy broke the staff which blew up and took out the whole party, and himself. It was very anticlimactic and left a bad taste in everyone’s mouth, including mine. I ended up having an NPC they met earlier come by in a wagon and took them to town to be raised.
Ghost Dragon, I had a party of 4 lvl 15 that the ghost dragon just destroyed, and if you give it it's breath weapon DC21 con save or like base 40 necrotic damage. And it's immunities make it a tough fight if they are not ready for it. If prepared though they may steamroll it.
I would note that it is worth planning for a TPK, but not because you specifically need one for the plot to move forward -- rather, if you just keep using legitimately hard encounters (which is well over deadly), eventually you're going to TPK the PCs by accident, and then you should figure out what to do when that happens.
Larloch
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Kobolds.
Never under estimate pack tactics.
After being led into a hallway in the kobold lair, dozens of intellect devourers drop from holes in the ceiling and along the walls, oil starts to spray from fire sprinkler devices above as the floor collapses on round 3 dropping everyone into a pit containing a giant gelatinous cube.
should the spellcaster still be able to levitate after his intellect gets devoured, toss a match. Impossible to concentrate long while on fire…
When you say TPK are you ok with brain devoured and body incinerated and bones dissolved in acid?
But Nem, how did the kobolds get so many intellect devourers? Have you ever met a kobold with a 3 intelligence? He is very difficult to pick out from the rest.
See, this kind of stuff is exactly why I'm recommending against being anything less than completely honest about what's happening. You inevitably get in a situation where everyone is pulling out tricks to escape or buy some time or bring everyone back from the dead and the DM just starts saying, "Uh... that doesn't work because uh, you can't teleport here."
It's the opposite of rewarding clever play, and it inevitably comes off as ham-fisted and unfair. Railroading isn't inherently bad. It only creates problems when you give your characters the impression that they have agency when they actually have none.
It's interesting that you mention Kobayashi Maru, because there are some key differences here - for one, KM isn't actually real. It's a simulation. No Star Trek actually ends that way because it's a deeply unsatisfying story. Second and more importantly, the whole concept was introduced just so Kirk - the hero - could later overcome it and state that he doesn't believe in no-win scenarios. That's so satisfying that they did it twice.
The players are Kirk in D&D. They want to be the exceptional cases that outwit the obstacles that seem insurmountable. That doesn't mean that they should expect that they can win every encounter, but there is a general expectation that they can at least survive every encounter, even if that just means one or more of them can escape. Exploiting that expectation is a cheap way to 'surprise' your players and it degrades trust at the table.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
When the party takes a long rest, describe how, if anyone is standing guard a pulsing sound faintly fills their ears and they fall asleep. A noise startles everyone awake and they are in a different place. Then they get attacked but no magic works (anti magic field or something). A shadowy Something kills them and they awake, for real this time, finding this was all a dream but something in the dream itself reveals part of the plot or a weakness of the BBEG. It can all be narrated or fought out, but they die…but they don’t. It was a dream after all.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I agree, it’s probably bad to just TPK a group because of reasons. I DM’d a AD&D module once (think it was a third party module like Role Aids or maybe my homebrew) and at the end the party was outside fighting the BBEG who had a staff of the magi. I was a bit (ok, a lot) adversarial back then and when it looked like the party was going to win, the bad guy broke the staff which blew up and took out the whole party, and himself. It was very anticlimactic and left a bad taste in everyone’s mouth, including mine. I ended up having an NPC they met earlier come by in a wagon and took them to town to be raised.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Ghost Dragon, I had a party of 4 lvl 15 that the ghost dragon just destroyed, and if you give it it's breath weapon DC21 con save or like base 40 necrotic damage. And it's immunities make it a tough fight if they are not ready for it. If prepared though they may steamroll it.
PyscoSonic#4554
I would note that it is worth planning for a TPK, but not because you specifically need one for the plot to move forward -- rather, if you just keep using legitimately hard encounters (which is well over deadly), eventually you're going to TPK the PCs by accident, and then you should figure out what to do when that happens.
3 mimic doors.
3 bean Slaad?