from a dm point of view what do i do with a monsters proficiency bonus. for example a red dragon has a proficiency bonus of 6. is this added to saving throws or ability checks? when do i take proficiency checks in consideration when playing monsters
This is from an adult red dragon from the basic rules:
Armor Class19 (Natural Armor)
Hit Points256 (19d12 + 133)
Speed40 ft., climb 40 ft., fly 80 ft.
STR
27(+8)
DEX
10(+0)
CON
25(+7)
INT
16(+3)
WIS
13(+1)
CHA
21(+5)
Saving ThrowsDEX +6, CON +13, WIS +7, CHA +11
It has a Prof bonus of +6, so when we look at its saving throws, Dex, Con, Wis and Cha its considered proficient, and gets the bonus. It's not proficient in strength but has a hefty bonus. Int would be its weakest save, followed by Dex.
If you are making a homebrew monster, basically this is where you would take into account what skills and saves it is proficient in, and how that prof adds to attacks and or spell save DCs.
As a personal gripe, it's typically one of the things I dislike about a lot of homebrew monsters. X will have a STR of 22(+6), a Prof bonus of +4, but somehow is hitting with a +14 with a Greataxe. I'm sorry, what?
Monster statblocks don't have to abide by the same rules PC sheets do. It's certainly more elegant if they're consistent, but DMs can arbitrarily decide to increase damage and reduce defenses or vice versa if they want. Monsters don't absolutely have to have high saves if they have high attack bonuses, which is what using proficiency consistently across both would imply. In the end what matters is that the statblock is complete. For proficiencies this means mentioning proficient saves and ability checks with their total bonus; anything not mentioned specifically will use the attribute bonus (or penalty) only and doesn't benefit from proficiency.
Monster statblocks don't have to abide by the same rules PC sheets do. It's certainly more elegant if they're consistent, but DMs can more or less arbitrarily decide to increase damage and reduce defenses if they want. In the end what matters is that the statblock is complete. For proficiencies this means mentioning proficient saves and ability checks with their total bonus; anything not mentioned specifically will use the attribute bonus (or penalty) only and doesn't benefit from proficiency.
So I agree with you in part there. Monsters aren't PCs, for sure. That being said, when you look at monsters and what they do, they absolutely follow the modifier + prof rule.
Examples from the basic rules:
Aboleth and it's tail swipe. 21 STR, +4 Prof, attack hits at a +9 with +5 damage. Makes sense!
Acoylte has a DC 12, +2 Prof and 14 Wisdom. Makes sense!
Dragon Turtle has a +13 to hit, +7 STR and +6 Prof. Makes sense!
Merrow has a +6 to hit, +4 STR and +2 Prof. Makes sense!
Mummy Lord has a DC 17 to spells, +4 Wisdom and +5 Prof. Makes sense! +9 to hit with its first with a +4 STR and +5 Prof. Still makes sense!
Purple Worm has a +14 to hit, +9 STR and +5 Prof.
Lich has a +19 arcana! 7 Prof bonus doubled for expertise and +5 Int! WOOO it's rational! Spellcasting is a DC 20 because of 8 + 5 Int Mod and +7! Now why it's other saves were put at a DC 18? I can't make sense BUT I acknowledge and agree with "Spell effects follow different rules because its just an inherent monster ability, not a PC related ability"
Lots of innate monster abilities scale off of Con, which would make sense for the Lich’s non-Int abilities. It lines up with it quite well for the Lich, having a +3 instead of +5.
So I agree with you in part there. Monsters aren't PCs, for sure. That being said, when you look at monsters and what they do, they absolutely follow the modifier + prof rule.
So I agree with you in part there. Monsters aren't PCs, for sure. That being said, when you look at monsters and what they do, they absolutely follow the modifier + prof rule.
Monster statblocks don't have to abide by the same rules PC sheets do. It's certainly more elegant if they're consistent, but DMs can arbitrarily decide to increase damage and reduce defenses or vice versa if they want. Monsters don't absolutely have to have high saves if they have high attack bonuses, which is what using proficiency consistently across both would imply. In the end what matters is that the statblock is complete. For proficiencies this means mentioning proficient saves and ability checks with their total bonus; anything not mentioned specifically will use the attribute bonus (or penalty) only and doesn't benefit from proficiency.
I tend to think of monsters as each belonging to their own class. They get unique features and abilities just like PC classes do. One of those abilities might be +2 on attacks with a greataxe or +2 hit points per hit dice. I get the desire for a stat sheet to be internally consistent, but I think the mindset that we need to stick to this is one of the reasons that high level monsters are not nearly the threat they should be. I might have a different mindset if I were publishing content, but my first priority is to create something interesting that challenges my party and that is way more important to me than staying consistent with the raw stats that will only be apparent to overly meta players who are trying to reverse-engineer the numbers.
A lot of Monster stats are listed without character builder explanations, so if they have Duelist or expertise, the results are listed and not the explanation. It's not designed to work with a character builder, and most monsters have lower proficiency than they should for their equivalent level. A CR 13 monster is about the same as a level 20 character, but their proficiency bonuses are usually 3 to 5 rather than 6 so the bounded accuracy can ensure interaction with player attacks and defense instead of rolling over them.
Check this Archmages spellcasting description, it specifically referenced a level 18 spell caster yet it's proficiency bonus is 4. https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/archmage
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from a dm point of view what do i do with a monsters proficiency bonus. for example a red dragon has a proficiency bonus of 6. is this added to saving throws or ability checks? when do i take proficiency checks in consideration when playing monsters
Most stat blocks already do this
This is from an adult red dragon from the basic rules:
It has a Prof bonus of +6, so when we look at its saving throws, Dex, Con, Wis and Cha its considered proficient, and gets the bonus. It's not proficient in strength but has a hefty bonus. Int would be its weakest save, followed by Dex.
If you are making a homebrew monster, basically this is where you would take into account what skills and saves it is proficient in, and how that prof adds to attacks and or spell save DCs.
As a personal gripe, it's typically one of the things I dislike about a lot of homebrew monsters. X will have a STR of 22(+6), a Prof bonus of +4, but somehow is hitting with a +14 with a Greataxe. I'm sorry, what?
https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/939731-aabicur-chieftain
This is a decent example.
Armor class of 14, but it's wearing hide, which is 12 AC, with a 15 Dex, so +2 to AC, and a Shield. It's AC should be 16.
Shortbow is attacking at a +4, which is right because it's a +2 Prof and +2 Dex, but then it deals 1d6+5. Where is that extra +3 coming from?
Scimitar is attacking at a +7, +4 to STR and +2 Prof, where is the extra +1 coming to both attack and damage?
Innate spellcasting is an 11, but it should be 8 + 2 Prof and + 2 Wisdom, for a 12.
IT MAKES NO SENSE
Monster statblocks don't have to abide by the same rules PC sheets do. It's certainly more elegant if they're consistent, but DMs can arbitrarily decide to increase damage and reduce defenses or vice versa if they want. Monsters don't absolutely have to have high saves if they have high attack bonuses, which is what using proficiency consistently across both would imply. In the end what matters is that the statblock is complete. For proficiencies this means mentioning proficient saves and ability checks with their total bonus; anything not mentioned specifically will use the attribute bonus (or penalty) only and doesn't benefit from proficiency.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
So I agree with you in part there. Monsters aren't PCs, for sure. That being said, when you look at monsters and what they do, they absolutely follow the modifier + prof rule.
Examples from the basic rules:
Aboleth and it's tail swipe. 21 STR, +4 Prof, attack hits at a +9 with +5 damage. Makes sense!
Acoylte has a DC 12, +2 Prof and 14 Wisdom. Makes sense!
Dragon Turtle has a +13 to hit, +7 STR and +6 Prof. Makes sense!
Merrow has a +6 to hit, +4 STR and +2 Prof. Makes sense!
Mummy Lord has a DC 17 to spells, +4 Wisdom and +5 Prof. Makes sense! +9 to hit with its first with a +4 STR and +5 Prof. Still makes sense!
Purple Worm has a +14 to hit, +9 STR and +5 Prof.
Lich has a +19 arcana! 7 Prof bonus doubled for expertise and +5 Int! WOOO it's rational! Spellcasting is a DC 20 because of 8 + 5 Int Mod and +7! Now why it's other saves were put at a DC 18? I can't make sense BUT I acknowledge and agree with "Spell effects follow different rules because its just an inherent monster ability, not a PC related ability"
Lots of innate monster abilities scale off of Con, which would make sense for the Lich’s non-Int abilities. It lines up with it quite well for the Lich, having a +3 instead of +5.
Adult Blue Dragon - Is this beastie's Perception incorrect then?
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Same with the Lich, has expertise. Prof Doubled +2
There are cases in the basic rules where this model isn't followed, but they are typically more edge cases than the standard.
Typically you can rationalize how the number comes to be. You can see the numbers on the stat block and go "Oh, ok, this + this = this."
I tend to think of monsters as each belonging to their own class. They get unique features and abilities just like PC classes do. One of those abilities might be +2 on attacks with a greataxe or +2 hit points per hit dice. I get the desire for a stat sheet to be internally consistent, but I think the mindset that we need to stick to this is one of the reasons that high level monsters are not nearly the threat they should be. I might have a different mindset if I were publishing content, but my first priority is to create something interesting that challenges my party and that is way more important to me than staying consistent with the raw stats that will only be apparent to overly meta players who are trying to reverse-engineer the numbers.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
A lot of Monster stats are listed without character builder explanations, so if they have Duelist or expertise, the results are listed and not the explanation. It's not designed to work with a character builder, and most monsters have lower proficiency than they should for their equivalent level. A CR 13 monster is about the same as a level 20 character, but their proficiency bonuses are usually 3 to 5 rather than 6 so the bounded accuracy can ensure interaction with player attacks and defense instead of rolling over them.
Check this Archmages spellcasting description, it specifically referenced a level 18 spell caster yet it's proficiency bonus is 4. https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/archmage