I had not ever tried to play a wordless Kenku until recently, and honestly it's been one of my favorite characters ever. I am always extremely engaged in the game in order to grab stray lines of dialogue, and I get laughs all the time when I throw a character's words back at them at appropriate (an inappropriate) times. It's gotten to the point where a character will say something, then pause, think about what they just said out of context, and facepalm because they know I'm writing it down in my spreadsheet.
I just feel like its a really unique playing experience. There were a few times I couldn't really get across what I wanted to say, but it wasn't that big a deal. Regardless of the change, my table will continue to play Kenku this way. There's not enough playstyle variation between races, I don't know why they'd want to kill off one of the few that actually play differently. If we want to be a normal talking bird we can just be aaracokra or owlin.
I have never enjoyed features that dictate how a character is roleplayed. It is like saying that if you play a Drow you must speak in a French accent and twirl your mustache. Let the mechanics be deferent but leave the RP choices to the players imagination.
Uh, yeah, that's how drow are played.
They are not wrong. Drow males are WIERD as Sht
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Magic is distilled laziness. Put that on my gravestone.”
Yeah I am going to have to pass on this. To me it is what made the Kenku unique and interesting. (I mean personally that is what I feel like happened to most of the races). I guess I can understand that people think it is hard creatively, but I think that just makes them more fun in that sense. I would rather have the Kenku characters go through like a journey to break the curse or something like that. But to each their own, just not my cup of tea so I will be sticking to the old version in my games.
Honestly all that has changed is you can now say your Kenku has a personal voice, instead of a freaky amalgamation of a voice.
For more the biggest and best change is they are not longer creatively dead, and can now get out of a room that has non standard doors on their own.
May I ask where you got this information that Kenku can now be creative? as far as I know, they have only been given the opportunity to speak.
The language was never my problem, but that this race can not think creatively is my problem .
if you have a source i would be happy about it, the in dndbeyond does not say about it on the Kenku page O: Greetings Darky
In the MotM entry for the playable race, it is not explicitly mentioned. It is obliquely referenced in that it mentions that one of their creation stories involves a curse that means that they are forced to mimic other's creativity, but there is no explicit mention that they are unable to be creative themselves. Since that is only one of many stories that references it, and there isn't even an explicit or direct mention of it, it's not unreasonable to say that Kenku are no longer barred from creativity (I mean, while it does say that they, in this one story, have to mimic other's creativity, that doesn't necessarily mean that they lack it themselves, it could be that they're instinctively driven to copy other's when the opportunity arises, but can still be creative themselves, for example).
Of course, a DM could infer that need to "copy other's creativity" is referencing a lack of creativity, and so enforce that rule in their game.
As always, it comes down to the DM. Still, there's definitely enough wriggle room for the DM to scrap that limitation. Personally, if you felt it would impede your fun, I'd let you scrap it. I'd have been willing to do so even before MotM. But that's me, and I'm not your DM.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
From every thing I have seen, a goal of MP:MoM was separate the culture from race/culture combos. By doing this they free the race from the culture that could be crippling to some by forcing a set play style or world view. Example:
"Feathered folk who resemble ravens, kenku are blessed with keen observation and supernaturally accurate memories. None of them can remember the origin of the first kenku, however, and they often joke that there are as many kenku origin stories as there are kenku. Some of them paint their genesis as a curse, being a flightless bird people doomed to mimic other people’s creations. Other kenku recite cryptic but beautiful poems about their advent being a blessed event in which they were sent into the multiverse to observe and catalog its many wonders."
For me it now makes this race playable, as I enjoy the race but not the limiting culture (creativity curse). Yet for those who want it can still have their Kenku come from the original Race/culture combo.
From every thing I have seen, a goal of MP:MoM was separate the culture from race/culture combos. By doing this they free the race from the culture that could be crippling to some by forcing a set play style or world view. Example:
"Feathered folk who resemble ravens, kenku are blessed with keen observation and supernaturally accurate memories. None of them can remember the origin of the first kenku, however, and they often joke that there are as many kenku origin stories as there are kenku. Some of them paint their genesis as a curse, being a flightless bird people doomed to mimic other people’s creations. Other kenku recite cryptic but beautiful poems about their advent being a blessed event in which they were sent into the multiverse to observe and catalog its many wonders."
For me it now makes this race playable, as I enjoy the race but not the limiting culture (creativity curse). Yet for those who want it can still have their Kenku come from the original Race/culture combo.
And yet, if you separate the Kenku from their culture they cease to be a Kenku. They're just generic crow person then. Why include Kenku at all at that point? This is a creative game, make up your own races at that point. If you don't want to play in Forgotten Realms? Great. But if you aren't why do you feel the need to include Forgotten Realms content in your game? Crow people aren't a standard fantasy race, no-one (or at least no-one outside of the D&D community) would miss Kenku if they weren't there: they didn't know they existed to begin with.
In a way, this is a crutch people do not need and its preventing them from creating something their own. If you don't want the Kenku lore, you don't need Kenku. Hell, you don't even need Elves or Humans or any other race found on Toril. As a DM, we create entire worlds from out imagination. Why are you limiting yourself to well-trodden paths?
Honestly all that has changed is you can now say your Kenku has a personal voice, instead of a freaky amalgamation of a voice.
For more the biggest and best change is they are not longer creatively dead, and can now get out of a room that has non standard doors on their own.
May I ask where you got this information that Kenku can now be creative? as far as I know, they have only been given the opportunity to speak.
The language was never my problem, but that this race can not think creatively is my problem .
if you have a source i would be happy about it, the in dndbeyond does not say about it on the Kenku page O: Greetings Darky
In the MotM entry for the playable race, it is not explicitly mentioned. It is obliquely referenced in that it mentions that one of their creation stories involves a curse that means that they are forced to mimic other's creativity, but there is no explicit mention that they are unable to be creative themselves. Since that is only one of many stories that references it, and there isn't even an explicit or direct mention of it, it's not unreasonable to say that Kenku are no longer barred from creativity (I mean, while it does say that they, in this one story, have to mimic other's creativity, that doesn't necessarily mean that they lack it themselves, it could be that they're instinctively driven to copy other's when the opportunity arises, but can still be creative themselves, for example).
Of course, a DM could infer that need to "copy other's creativity" is referencing a lack of creativity, and so enforce that rule in their game.
As always, it comes down to the DM. Still, there's definitely enough wriggle room for the DM to scrap that limitation. Personally, if you felt it would impede your fun, I'd let you scrap it. I'd have been willing to do so even before MotM. But that's me, and I'm not your DM.
Thanks for the answer. thumbs up
I play at the moment the Legacy Kenku. get along with it also well. Except for the curse that restricts creativity. Since I thought that the MOtM Kenku only got the bonus: the free speech in addition, I have not taken him^^.
then it would be a consideration for me to switch to the MotM kenku. but only because of the creativity curse.
because the fact that I could only speak in mimicry never bothered me, so I did not feel the need to change :D. I will times my DM with it nerven Haha .
It might be good for creativity exchanging ideas for how to play birdfolk, with or without mimicry. But for all practical purposes races are only skins nowadays. A flying drow paladin of Illmater using mimicry to communicate shouldn't be a problem. If your DM is in line with WotCs changes of the fundamentals of the game, such as invalidating the ramifications of race, just present a race concept and go for it :-)
From every thing I have seen, a goal of MP:MoM was separate the culture from race/culture combos. By doing this they free the race from the culture that could be crippling to some by forcing a set play style or world view. Example:
"Feathered folk who resemble ravens, kenku are blessed with keen observation and supernaturally accurate memories. None of them can remember the origin of the first kenku, however, and they often joke that there are as many kenku origin stories as there are kenku. Some of them paint their genesis as a curse, being a flightless bird people doomed to mimic other people’s creations. Other kenku recite cryptic but beautiful poems about their advent being a blessed event in which they were sent into the multiverse to observe and catalog its many wonders."
For me it now makes this race playable, as I enjoy the race but not the limiting culture (creativity curse). Yet for those who want it can still have their Kenku come from the original Race/culture combo.
I like this and can get on board with it. I guess my primary issue is that after separating the race and the culture, they only printed the race.
It would be nice if cultures were presented too, whether adjacent or apart from race. Right now all we have to go on is a couple vague sentences in each description. It would be nice to have cultures presented that we could opt-in to if we like. Otherwise they'll just fade to obscurity.
As a DM the reality that Kenku can't speak beyond a mimic has made them gifted Messengers. They could hear a message and share it but no amount of torcher can make them speak information they never heard.
I have a player who runs a Kenku. She uses an app to speak. The app has quotes from media. It is amazing.
One of my favorite characters ever for both me and my group was a Legacy Kenku Glamour Bard with peacock coloring named Haila (Hyena Laugh, the sound they made when they were happy). Our DM gave us a free feat at start so I picked Eldritch Adept and grabbed the Mask of Many Faces invocation, getting the ability to cast Disguise Self at will for free.
Their backstory was that they were part of the city's theatre troupe as the ultimate understudy. They would learn the lines as spoken by the actors for the plays they would perform, and that way if anyone was sick, injured, or unavailable, Haila would be able to Disguise themselves as the missing performer and fill the role. When they weren't on stage, they would be contributing with Illusion magic to craft the props, music, and effects. They performed one-man shows out in front of taverns and on street corners, using that same illusion magic to shape the area around them and add to the show. They would even do "covers" of other famous bards and singers, disguising as them and singing their songs for curious crowds.
To talk, they would piece together quotes from the different plays they had learned (all of their dialogue was either improvised Shakespearian or actual Shakespeare quotes, and it was exciting and fun to make up new accents on the fly) or they would use their illusion magic to craft pictures, colors, and ideas like a magical combination of Pictionary and Charades.
Sometimes, putting a limitation on what a race or a class can do can get the creative juices flowing as to how someone could get around that limitation - and that's what I did for that character. They have been one of my most fun characters to play specifically because of the mimicry limitation forcing me to think outside the box for other ways to communicate.
Honestly, I can't say I've never known anyone who played a Kenku that wasn't drawn to the challenges that speech limitation gave; they've all been kindof excited for the roleplay potential it offers and feel pretty rewarded when they find ways to legitimately get around it. A few realized it was harder than they thought it was going to be, and the DM always allowed them to make a new character. If they liked the personality of their Kenku but just wanted to communicate easier, the DM would usually homebrew some sort of magic item that would allow them to talk easier or give them a boon as a quest reward.
I had not ever tried to play a wordless Kenku until recently, and honestly it's been one of my favorite characters ever. I am always extremely engaged in the game in order to grab stray lines of dialogue, and I get laughs all the time when I throw a character's words back at them at appropriate (an inappropriate) times. It's gotten to the point where a character will say something, then pause, think about what they just said out of context, and facepalm because they know I'm writing it down in my spreadsheet.
I just feel like its a really unique playing experience. There were a few times I couldn't really get across what I wanted to say, but it wasn't that big a deal. Regardless of the change, my table will continue to play Kenku this way. There's not enough playstyle variation between races, I don't know why they'd want to kill off one of the few that actually play differently. If we want to be a normal talking bird we can just be aaracokra or owlin.
I have never enjoyed features that dictate how a character is roleplayed. It is like saying that if you play a Drow you must speak in a French accent and twirl your mustache. Let the mechanics be deferent but leave the RP choices to the players imagination.
Uh, yeah, that's how drow are played.
They are not wrong. Drow males are WIERD as Sht
Hon hon hon, ze sacrifice to Lolth is que magnifique!
I really don't think that being small, which has a mechanical effect is the same as having an "accent" that has no mechanical effect. Lucky for you, you can still play your Kenku just like you always have. The rest of us just don't have to since it isn't "RAW" anymore.
The problem is that, going forward, the Mimicry-only Kenku will only exist for people who were already familiar with it since Wizards is now mandating use of the MMoU at Adventurer's League games and has stopped printing Volo's Guide to Monsters. IOW, some amount of lore will be lost unless older players actively keep reviving the lore of the old Kenku by telling it to younger players.
Why even have races? Why not just list a bunch of things and let people pick the ones they want until it reaches a points limit. Oh, I know - because then we end up with a peach melba yoghurt of a game where you dont fight the undead and evil isnt really evil. (other examples exist)
Thin end of the wedge, things being different is what gives flavour until everything is so different that each is unique and has no recogniseable identity.
Why even have races? Why not just list a bunch of things and let people pick the ones they want until it reaches a points limit. Oh, I know - because then we end up with a peach melba yoghurt of a game where you dont fight the undead and evil isnt really evil. (other examples exist)
The main reason for not using point build for things like races, other than tradition, is that it's a bear to balance.
Why even have races? Why not just list a bunch of things and let people pick the ones they want until it reaches a points limit. Oh, I know - because then we end up with a peach melba yoghurt of a game where you dont fight the undead and evil isnt really evil. (other examples exist)
The main reason for not using point build for things like races, other than tradition, is that it's a bear to balance.
No, it can definitely be done. Look at Shadowrun. They use a point buy system in a combat-focused RPG.
The actual main issue with a point buy system is that it complicates character creation. More complex character creation decreases the potential player base, which would make D&D less popular and WotC less money in the long run.
Why even have races? Why not just list a bunch of things and let people pick the ones they want until it reaches a points limit. Oh, I know - because then we end up with a peach melba yoghurt of a game where you dont fight the undead and evil isnt really evil. (other examples exist)
The main reason for not using point build for things like races, other than tradition, is that it's a bear to balance.
No, it can definitely be done. Look at Shadowrun. They use a point buy system in a combat-focused RPG.
The actual main issue with a point buy system is that it complicates character creation. More complex character creation decreases the potential player base, which would make D&D less popular and WotC less money in the long run.
True, look at GURPS if you want another example, you create racing by using the point but system and putting them in "packages."
However, a point buy system is honestly quite confusing, and though you can do a lot of things with it, it usually increases min-maxing and people can create some really overpowered builds with it. I also think a lot of D&D's appeal (at least to me) lies in the fact that you follow a more linear path (your class), as opposed to just cobbling together different abilities.
However, I think we should keep races in 5e. They work quite well with class and having a point buy system if you want to play another race, just adds another level of confusion, and stops people from testing out and playing loads of cool races. Also, it generally makes it harder for newer players to play more interesting races, since they may not know how to bundle together different types of abilities, and it may be hard for them to do that without a lot of help, unless the game designers spent loads of time, pages, and added more complexity to the game so they could make 40+ different racial templates/packages of abilities shown earlier in the book.
A point buy system is possible, but it would take away some of the best elements of 5e. And, having it work with races would still be possible, but it would create an uneccesary and complicated game designing mess.
Honestly all that has changed is you can now say your Kenku has a personal voice, instead of a freaky amalgamation of a voice.
For more the biggest and best change is they are not longer creatively dead, and can now get out of a room that has non standard doors on their own.
May I ask where you got this information that Kenku can now be creative? as far as I know, they have only been given the opportunity to speak.
The language was never my problem, but that this race can not think creatively is my problem .
if you have a source i would be happy about it, the in dndbeyond does not say about it on the Kenku page O:
Greetings Darky
They are not wrong. Drow males are WIERD as Sht
“Magic is distilled laziness. Put that on my gravestone.”
Yeah I am going to have to pass on this. To me it is what made the Kenku unique and interesting. (I mean personally that is what I feel like happened to most of the races). I guess I can understand that people think it is hard creatively, but I think that just makes them more fun in that sense. I would rather have the Kenku characters go through like a journey to break the curse or something like that. But to each their own, just not my cup of tea so I will be sticking to the old version in my games.
In the MotM entry for the playable race, it is not explicitly mentioned. It is obliquely referenced in that it mentions that one of their creation stories involves a curse that means that they are forced to mimic other's creativity, but there is no explicit mention that they are unable to be creative themselves. Since that is only one of many stories that references it, and there isn't even an explicit or direct mention of it, it's not unreasonable to say that Kenku are no longer barred from creativity (I mean, while it does say that they, in this one story, have to mimic other's creativity, that doesn't necessarily mean that they lack it themselves, it could be that they're instinctively driven to copy other's when the opportunity arises, but can still be creative themselves, for example).
Of course, a DM could infer that need to "copy other's creativity" is referencing a lack of creativity, and so enforce that rule in their game.
As always, it comes down to the DM. Still, there's definitely enough wriggle room for the DM to scrap that limitation. Personally, if you felt it would impede your fun, I'd let you scrap it. I'd have been willing to do so even before MotM. But that's me, and I'm not your DM.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
From every thing I have seen, a goal of MP:MoM was separate the culture from race/culture combos. By doing this they free the race from the culture that could be crippling to some by forcing a set play style or world view. Example:
"Feathered folk who resemble ravens, kenku are blessed with keen observation and supernaturally accurate memories. None of them can remember the origin of the first kenku, however, and they often joke that there are as many kenku origin stories as there are kenku. Some of them paint their genesis as a curse, being a flightless bird people doomed to mimic other people’s creations. Other kenku recite cryptic but beautiful poems about their advent being a blessed event in which they were sent into the multiverse to observe and catalog its many wonders."
For me it now makes this race playable, as I enjoy the race but not the limiting culture (creativity curse). Yet for those who want it can still have their Kenku come from the original Race/culture combo.
And yet, if you separate the Kenku from their culture they cease to be a Kenku. They're just generic crow person then. Why include Kenku at all at that point? This is a creative game, make up your own races at that point. If you don't want to play in Forgotten Realms? Great. But if you aren't why do you feel the need to include Forgotten Realms content in your game? Crow people aren't a standard fantasy race, no-one (or at least no-one outside of the D&D community) would miss Kenku if they weren't there: they didn't know they existed to begin with.
In a way, this is a crutch people do not need and its preventing them from creating something their own. If you don't want the Kenku lore, you don't need Kenku. Hell, you don't even need Elves or Humans or any other race found on Toril. As a DM, we create entire worlds from out imagination. Why are you limiting yourself to well-trodden paths?
Thanks for the answer. thumbs up
I play at the moment the Legacy Kenku. get along with it also well.
Except for the curse that restricts creativity.
Since I thought that the MOtM Kenku only got the bonus: the free speech in addition, I have not taken him^^.
then it would be a consideration for me to switch to the MotM kenku. but only because of the creativity curse.
because the fact that I could only speak in mimicry never bothered me, so I did not feel the need to change :D.
I will times my DM with it nerven Haha .
thanks again
It might be good for creativity exchanging ideas for how to play birdfolk, with or without mimicry. But for all practical purposes races are only skins nowadays. A flying drow paladin of Illmater using mimicry to communicate shouldn't be a problem. If your DM is in line with WotCs changes of the fundamentals of the game, such as invalidating the ramifications of race, just present a race concept and go for it :-)
I like this and can get on board with it. I guess my primary issue is that after separating the race and the culture, they only printed the race.
It would be nice if cultures were presented too, whether adjacent or apart from race. Right now all we have to go on is a couple vague sentences in each description. It would be nice to have cultures presented that we could opt-in to if we like. Otherwise they'll just fade to obscurity.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Kenku couldn't create so couldn't have a "culture" of their own to begin with. They didn't lose their culture, they lost their curse.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
As a DM the reality that Kenku can't speak beyond a mimic has made them gifted Messengers. They could hear a message and share it but no amount of torcher can make them speak information they never heard.
I have a player who runs a Kenku. She uses an app to speak. The app has quotes from media. It is amazing.
Discord: MasterWitch#2965
My World Anvil account if you're interested. Work in progress.
https://www.worldanvil.com/w/land-of-the-fallen-7Blandfall7D-masterwitch
One of my favorite characters ever for both me and my group was a Legacy Kenku Glamour Bard with peacock coloring named Haila (Hyena Laugh, the sound they made when they were happy). Our DM gave us a free feat at start so I picked Eldritch Adept and grabbed the Mask of Many Faces invocation, getting the ability to cast Disguise Self at will for free.
Their backstory was that they were part of the city's theatre troupe as the ultimate understudy. They would learn the lines as spoken by the actors for the plays they would perform, and that way if anyone was sick, injured, or unavailable, Haila would be able to Disguise themselves as the missing performer and fill the role. When they weren't on stage, they would be contributing with Illusion magic to craft the props, music, and effects. They performed one-man shows out in front of taverns and on street corners, using that same illusion magic to shape the area around them and add to the show. They would even do "covers" of other famous bards and singers, disguising as them and singing their songs for curious crowds.
To talk, they would piece together quotes from the different plays they had learned (all of their dialogue was either improvised Shakespearian or actual Shakespeare quotes, and it was exciting and fun to make up new accents on the fly) or they would use their illusion magic to craft pictures, colors, and ideas like a magical combination of Pictionary and Charades.
Sometimes, putting a limitation on what a race or a class can do can get the creative juices flowing as to how someone could get around that limitation - and that's what I did for that character. They have been one of my most fun characters to play specifically because of the mimicry limitation forcing me to think outside the box for other ways to communicate.
Honestly, I can't say I've never known anyone who played a Kenku that wasn't drawn to the challenges that speech limitation gave; they've all been kindof excited for the roleplay potential it offers and feel pretty rewarded when they find ways to legitimately get around it. A few realized it was harder than they thought it was going to be, and the DM always allowed them to make a new character. If they liked the personality of their Kenku but just wanted to communicate easier, the DM would usually homebrew some sort of magic item that would allow them to talk easier or give them a boon as a quest reward.
i like your idea
Wow That is a Amazing story.
Hon hon hon, ze sacrifice to Lolth is que magnifique!
The problem is that, going forward, the Mimicry-only Kenku will only exist for people who were already familiar with it since Wizards is now mandating use of the MMoU at Adventurer's League games and has stopped printing Volo's Guide to Monsters. IOW, some amount of lore will be lost unless older players actively keep reviving the lore of the old Kenku by telling it to younger players.
Why even have races? Why not just list a bunch of things and let people pick the ones they want until it reaches a points limit. Oh, I know - because then we end up with a peach melba yoghurt of a game where you dont fight the undead and evil isnt really evil. (other examples exist)
Thin end of the wedge, things being different is what gives flavour until everything is so different that each is unique and has no recogniseable identity.
The main reason for not using point build for things like races, other than tradition, is that it's a bear to balance.
No, it can definitely be done. Look at Shadowrun. They use a point buy system in a combat-focused RPG.
The actual main issue with a point buy system is that it complicates character creation. More complex character creation decreases the potential player base, which would make D&D less popular and WotC less money in the long run.
True, look at GURPS if you want another example, you create racing by using the point but system and putting them in "packages."
However, a point buy system is honestly quite confusing, and though you can do a lot of things with it, it usually increases min-maxing and people can create some really overpowered builds with it. I also think a lot of D&D's appeal (at least to me) lies in the fact that you follow a more linear path (your class), as opposed to just cobbling together different abilities.
However, I think we should keep races in 5e. They work quite well with class and having a point buy system if you want to play another race, just adds another level of confusion, and stops people from testing out and playing loads of cool races. Also, it generally makes it harder for newer players to play more interesting races, since they may not know how to bundle together different types of abilities, and it may be hard for them to do that without a lot of help, unless the game designers spent loads of time, pages, and added more complexity to the game so they could make 40+ different racial templates/packages of abilities shown earlier in the book.
A point buy system is possible, but it would take away some of the best elements of 5e. And, having it work with races would still be possible, but it would create an uneccesary and complicated game designing mess.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
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