Just asking: has anyone ever used Power Word Stun? It seems even worse. (In your opinion, what is the worst spell?)
It's a Con save, which I'd generally harder to beat, so that's good. It's also a L8 spell, which is also an improvement. But yeah, it's not something I'd generally go for. No damage? Risk that you misjudge the HP and is completely wasted? Single target? If I had it prepared for some reason, everyone (including the target) is on their last legs and we just need to postpone their action one turn to kill it before it finished us off? Sure...but it's not something I'd turn to very often.
I agree, theirs a lot of way power word stun could go wrong. But it is 8th level, and does have a great effect if it succeeds (the enemy is stunned). I think it's about as good as weird though, even if it is only an 8th level spell.
Edit: It does work great on enemy spellcasters though, if they've taken even just a bit of damage. Spellcasters usually don't have much HP to start with.
I actually misinterpreted it, and my brain assumed that it required a Con Save to act, when it's only for subsequent turns. That is actually a lot better than I thought. I can see why it's an 8th level - you don't want them spamming that when fighting against single targets or the game would suck. It may seem a bit overestimated for an appropriate level, but I can see why for gameplay reasons. I'm not sure it being on a par with Weird, though. If you're up against a single target, it could be really good if the target is capable of outputting more damage than you are. Trade your turn to stop theirs, that's a free round for the rest of the party. The effect isn't one that's easily replicated by a lower level spell (to my knowledge), which is the condemning fact for Weird in my opinion.
Still, it does have those drawbacks. It could be useful (stunning them for a couple of rounds of they fail the save could be a game changer), but it is risky (assuming you're not metagaming). Is it better than Weird? I think this one scales with your opponent. Fighting Goblin, and it's pointless. A Tarrasque, it could be really good. Weird is the opposite - the higher CR you're fighting, the worse it gets, because they're more likely to shrug it off or have minimal effects.
I'd like to see it in action a few times before I offer final judgement.
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I think that a good DM could make good use of Weird for a BBEG in a way that a technically better spell wouldn't. Meteor Swarm will kill more people and destroy a ton of buildings, but Weird, if roleplayed correctly, would be far more interesting, despite doing less damage. If you walk into a village and a bunch of buildings have exploded and everything is on fire, that's certainly harrowing... a great hook for an average party. But you walk in, everything is perfectly intact but everyone is dead, the bodies left in panicked position, some of them have their eyes open wide in abject horror, some others curled up in balls, eyes shut tight, bodies still tense even after death. OoooOOoooohhh spoooOooooOOOOoooky. If the players aren't intimately familiar with all the spells in the game off the top of their head it just looks like maybe an Elder God sprung into life here or something. If they do some solid Arcana rolls or otherwise research this, they could then realize they're facing off against someone capable of casting 9th level spells. Even if you know enough about the game to know that Weird is a junk spell that's only considered 9th level out of tradition, the knowledge that you're battling a 9th level spellcaster is a good indication of the power you're facing off against... just because a spellcaster knows Weird doesn't mean they don't know any other 9th level spells.
Would the BBEG take interesting over effective? And if a spellcaster casts weird, then yes, unless they have some sort of special magic item, then they're out of 9th level slots.
Sorcerers, wizards, and warlocks can only cast one 9th level spell per a day.
The BBEG wouldn't, but the DM might. If you find... let's say a ballroom that's been hit by Weird, it's very narratively interesting. It's a great Crime Scene to leave behind and let the players figure out what happened. Is it a good spell for a BBEG to stock and rely on in combat? Not at all. If anything it's best value is as a "nice" spell the DM can use to drop a 9th level spell that the players are likely to survive. I don't want to come off as too aggressively defending Weird... it's not well-balanced as a 9th level spell, and the effects it creates can be easily replicated by lower-level spells or just letting the DM homebrew a psychic wave attack or something to get more or less the same effect. But it's a cool way to leave behind a room of disturbing bodies while also telegraphing to your players that they're facing off against a creature that, at minimum, has access to 9th level spells.
Another thing to keep in mind is that NPCs aren't limited to the same rules as PCs. If the DM wants to say that the BBEG can cast Weird 3 times a day without consuming an actual spell slot, then that's how the creature works. It's not much of a defense of the spell... it's still not a good 9th level spell, and I'd wager it doesn't hold up against most 8th level spells either. But it has the potential to be narratively interesting, and for some DMs that's more important than being mechanically powerful.
I would argue that’s true for many DMs as our job is to make things interesting for the players.
I think that a good DM could make good use of Weird for a BBEG in a way that a technically better spell wouldn't. Meteor Swarm will kill more people and destroy a ton of buildings, but Weird, if roleplayed correctly, would be far more interesting, despite doing less damage. If you walk into a village and a bunch of buildings have exploded and everything is on fire, that's certainly harrowing... a great hook for an average party. But you walk in, everything is perfectly intact but everyone is dead, the bodies left in panicked position, some of them have their eyes open wide in abject horror, some others curled up in balls, eyes shut tight, bodies still tense even after death. OoooOOoooohhh spoooOooooOOOOoooky. If the players aren't intimately familiar with all the spells in the game off the top of their head it just looks like maybe an Elder God sprung into life here or something. If they do some solid Arcana rolls or otherwise research this, they could then realize they're facing off against someone capable of casting 9th level spells. Even if you know enough about the game to know that Weird is a junk spell that's only considered 9th level out of tradition, the knowledge that you're battling a 9th level spellcaster is a good indication of the power you're facing off against... just because a spellcaster knows Weird doesn't mean they don't know any other 9th level spells.
Would the BBEG take interesting over effective? And if a spellcaster casts weird, then yes, unless they have some sort of special magic item, then they're out of 9th level slots.
Sorcerers, wizards, and warlocks can only cast one 9th level spell per a day.
The BBEG wouldn't, but the DM might. If you find... let's say a ballroom that's been hit by Weird, it's very narratively interesting. It's a great Crime Scene to leave behind and let the players figure out what happened. Is it a good spell for a BBEG to stock and rely on in combat? Not at all. If anything it's best value is as a "nice" spell the DM can use to drop a 9th level spell that the players are likely to survive. I don't want to come off as too aggressively defending Weird... it's not well-balanced as a 9th level spell, and the effects it creates can be easily replicated by lower-level spells or just letting the DM homebrew a psychic wave attack or something to get more or less the same effect. But it's a cool way to leave behind a room of disturbing bodies while also telegraphing to your players that they're facing off against a creature that, at minimum, has access to 9th level spells.
Another thing to keep in mind is that NPCs aren't limited to the same rules as PCs. If the DM wants to say that the BBEG can cast Weird 3 times a day without consuming an actual spell slot, then that's how the creature works. It's not much of a defense of the spell... it's still not a good 9th level spell, and I'd wager it doesn't hold up against most 8th level spells either. But it has the potential to be narratively interesting, and for some DMs that's more important than being mechanically powerful.
I would argue that’s true for many DMs as our job is to make things interesting for the players.
Yeah, sometimes Id like to drop a strong spell on the party to indicate the power of the entity they are up against, but I dont want to inadvertently cause a TPK. Having the BBEG cast Weird indicates that they are capable of using 9th-level magic and provides a fun roleplay opportunity as each party member might have to face their greatest fear. If all goes well, it could provide a round for the BBEG to vanish with the party knowing that they will likely be back one day to torment them further.
Hmmm, the more I talk about it the more I want to give Strahd the spell in my next CoS campaign. Granted, worst case scenario 4d10 for up to 10 turns could be nasty on a party of level 1-10, but since its concentration one could easily have him drop concentration when he feels he has thoroughly tormented the poor adventurers.
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I think that a good DM could make good use of Weird for a BBEG in a way that a technically better spell wouldn't. Meteor Swarm will kill more people and destroy a ton of buildings, but Weird, if roleplayed correctly, would be far more interesting, despite doing less damage. If you walk into a village and a bunch of buildings have exploded and everything is on fire, that's certainly harrowing... a great hook for an average party. But you walk in, everything is perfectly intact but everyone is dead, the bodies left in panicked position, some of them have their eyes open wide in abject horror, some others curled up in balls, eyes shut tight, bodies still tense even after death. OoooOOoooohhh spoooOooooOOOOoooky. If the players aren't intimately familiar with all the spells in the game off the top of their head it just looks like maybe an Elder God sprung into life here or something. If they do some solid Arcana rolls or otherwise research this, they could then realize they're facing off against someone capable of casting 9th level spells. Even if you know enough about the game to know that Weird is a junk spell that's only considered 9th level out of tradition, the knowledge that you're battling a 9th level spellcaster is a good indication of the power you're facing off against... just because a spellcaster knows Weird doesn't mean they don't know any other 9th level spells.
Would the BBEG take interesting over effective? And if a spellcaster casts weird, then yes, unless they have some sort of special magic item, then they're out of 9th level slots.
Sorcerers, wizards, and warlocks can only cast one 9th level spell per a day.
The BBEG wouldn't, but the DM might. If you find... let's say a ballroom that's been hit by Weird, it's very narratively interesting. It's a great Crime Scene to leave behind and let the players figure out what happened. Is it a good spell for a BBEG to stock and rely on in combat? Not at all. If anything it's best value is as a "nice" spell the DM can use to drop a 9th level spell that the players are likely to survive. I don't want to come off as too aggressively defending Weird... it's not well-balanced as a 9th level spell, and the effects it creates can be easily replicated by lower-level spells or just letting the DM homebrew a psychic wave attack or something to get more or less the same effect. But it's a cool way to leave behind a room of disturbing bodies while also telegraphing to your players that they're facing off against a creature that, at minimum, has access to 9th level spells.
Another thing to keep in mind is that NPCs aren't limited to the same rules as PCs. If the DM wants to say that the BBEG can cast Weird 3 times a day without consuming an actual spell slot, then that's how the creature works. It's not much of a defense of the spell... it's still not a good 9th level spell, and I'd wager it doesn't hold up against most 8th level spells either. But it has the potential to be narratively interesting, and for some DMs that's more important than being mechanically powerful.
I would argue that’s true for many DMs as our job is to make things interesting for the players.
I'm going to be lazy and chip in to both comments.
I actually agree with pretty uch everything said. I would want the spell kept for those reasons...but I'm a great believer in things being both flavourful and mechanically valid. Homebrew should be for fine tuning and adjusting to the specifics of the table. If I'm having to adjust the mechanics of something to make it viable...then there's something wrong with it. I'm of the opinion it should just be mechanically adjusted so the flavour and the mechanics are both strong aspects of the spell for its level. Mechanically, it's beaten by a 4th level spell, and that stinks.
A spell should be of an appropriate power and flavour for its level.
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Target: Each creature in a 30-foot-radius sphere centered on a point of your choice within range Components: V, S, M (three nut shells) Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
This spell assaults and twists creatures’ minds, spawning delusions and provoking uncontrolled actions. Each creature in a 30-foot-radius sphere centered on a point you choose within range must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw when you cast this spell or be affected by it.
An affected target can’t take reactions and must roll a d10 at the start of each of its turns to determine its behavior for that turn.
d10
Behavior
1
The creature uses all its movement to move in a random direction. To determine the direction, roll a d8 and assign a direction to each die face. The creature doesn’t take an action this turn.
2-6
The creature doesn’t move or take actions this turn.
, 7-8
The creature uses its action to make a melee attack against a randomly determined creature within its reach. If there is no creature within its reach, the creature does nothing this turn.
9-10
The creature can act and move normally.
After the first round, on following rounds, at the beginning of it's turn, an affected target can make a Wisdom saving throw. It it succeeds, it is not affected by this spell for that round. Track the number of failed saves over the duration of this spell. The target gains an insanity level equal to the number of failed saves.
The target will be affected by insanity for a duration, in days, equal to it's insanity level. The affects of it's insanity are as follow.
Level
Effect
1
Disadvantage on Mental Ability checks and spells.
2
You will become frightened of random creatures, places and objects determined by your DM.
3
Disadvantage on Attack rolls, skill checks and Saving Throws.
4
Every hour, you must make a DC 12 Wisdom saving throw or be affected with Short-Term Madness for 1d10 minutes.
5
Upon reaching level five, you become mentally Paralyzed. If you are still at Level 5 of Insanity after 1d4 days, you progress to Level 6.
6
You go permanently insane and fall under the DM's control. A character with permanent insanity may be reduced to a raving lunatic or may be outwardly indistinguishable from a normal person: either way, they may never go back to who they once were.
Any insanity level of 6 or greater is permanent and can only be removed with a quest. (The party taking the insane character with them on the quest.)
I think that Greater Restoration or at the very least Wish ought to be able to cure the effect. Having to go on a sidequest is majorly derailing, especially if multiple characters got affected that way. At that point you might as well just force the players to roll up new characters.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
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I haven't read all of the posts so apologies if anyone has mentioned this but....what about replacing the fear side of things with Confusion; so each creature in the area rolls d10 at the start of their turn to decide how it acts and if they roll a 10 they can act normally except the frightened condition kicks in as well. You can still roll play it as fear invading the victims minds and them seeing their darkesty feasrs etc, it just has a little more oomph to it.
That way its effectively a 9th level confusion that deals damage.
How about adding Exhaustion to it as well?
Exhaustion doesn't feel right to me for the spell as it seems a bit too Necormantic. That said, I could see it working mechanically as maybe 1 level of exhaustion per failed save so eventually you could kill people with either the damage or multiple levels of exhaustion. I think it should be either confusion or exhaustion or something else....which now I've had a chance to look at the 3.5e version of the spell could be as simple as "a target that fails their saving throw is stunned and can attempt a further saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending the stun on a successful saving throw." That way they take damage at the start of each turn and are stunned every turn they fail a saving throw. Which would probably make it a bit easier to DM the effects.
Edity: Do'h, I was to busy writing this to notice you had put up a new version of the spell......
I can appreciate the "it's 9th level, it should be EPIC" approach, but ain't no way most DMs are keeping track of all that
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Drawing on the deepest fears of a group of creatures, you create illusory creatures in their minds, visible only to them. Each creature in a 30-foot-radius sphere centered on a point of your choice within range must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, a creature becomes frightened for the duration; on success they are affected by the spell but not frightened. The illusion calls on the creature's deepest fears, manifesting its worst nightmares as an implacable threat. A creature affected by this spell takes 2d10 psychic damage at the start of each of its turns, or 4d10 if frightened. A frightened creature must spend its action to dash away from the source of its fear, or dodge if unable to do so, and may repeat the save at the end of each of its turns, ending the frightened effect on success. The spell only ends on a creature when its duration expires or it is successfully disbelieved with an investigation check against the caster's spell DC.
The key thing here is that it's hard CC, and has a useful effect even on a successful save.
One thing about the saving throw DC on the spell as is: even understanding that NPCs don't have to calculate it the same way PCs do, it's still probably going to be higher than 20
A 17th-level PC wizard has a +6 prof bonus and probably at least a +5 stat bonus, before factoring in anything that might be stacked on top. The whole "requires multiple fails to be effective" complaint is kind of irrelevant against creatures that don't have a significant boost to their WIS saves
Again, that's true of any 9th-level spell like meteor swarm or prismatic wall, but it's not like weird is going to fail to take full effect against most creatures
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Again, that's true of any 9th-level spell like meteor swarm or prismatic wall, but it's not like weird is going to fail to take full effect against most creatures
It's going to fail to take full effect because pretty much anything that can't make the save is going to be dead by round 2 for unrelated reasons (and if it's powerful, has a cruddy wisdom save, and isn't legendary, dominate monster is the clearly optimal choice).
It's going to fail to take full effect because pretty much anything that can't make the save is going to be dead by round 2
Why are you tracking rounds out of combat
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One thing about the saving throw DC on the spell as is: even understanding that NPCs don't have to calculate it the same way PCs do, it's still probably going to be higher than 20
A 17th-level PC wizard has a +6 prof bonus and probably at least a +5 stat bonus, before factoring in anything that might be stacked on top. The whole "requires multiple fails to be effective" complaint is kind of irrelevant against creatures that don't have a significant boost to their WIS saves
Again, that's true of any 9th-level spell like meteor swarm or prismatic wall, but it's not like weird is going to fail to take full effect against most creatures
But what about the ones that do have a decent bonus to their wisdom saves, do you want to give them to chances to not take damage.
And with ones that don't have a "significant" wisdom save bonus, why give them that extra chance? It's not irrelevent unless they physically cant save, just because the chances of your enemy succeeding are low doesn't mean you want to make them higher.
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If you cast weird, you're in combat. It's not even possible to resolve its effects out of combat, because all of its effects require the victim to have a turn.
If you cast weird, you're in combat. It's not even possible to resolve its effects out of combat, because all of its effects require the victim to have a turn.
If you're defining "combat" as "any time you need to track turns", then sure
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If you cast weird, you're in combat. It's not even possible to resolve its effects out of combat, because all of its effects require the victim to have a turn.
If you're defining "combat" as "any time you need to track turns", then sure
You asked about counting rounds out of combat, it's no different from counting turns. Also, weird has verbal and somatic components, so unless you have subtle spell it's going to put you in combat.
I think that a good DM could make good use of Weird for a BBEG in a way that a technically better spell wouldn't. Meteor Swarm will kill more people and destroy a ton of buildings, but Weird, if roleplayed correctly, would be far more interesting, despite doing less damage. If you walk into a village and a bunch of buildings have exploded and everything is on fire, that's certainly harrowing... a great hook for an average party. But you walk in, everything is perfectly intact but everyone is dead, the bodies left in panicked position, some of them have their eyes open wide in abject horror, some others curled up in balls, eyes shut tight, bodies still tense even after death. OoooOOoooohhh spoooOooooOOOOoooky. If the players aren't intimately familiar with all the spells in the game off the top of their head it just looks like maybe an Elder God sprung into life here or something. If they do some solid Arcana rolls or otherwise research this, they could then realize they're facing off against someone capable of casting 9th level spells. Even if you know enough about the game to know that Weird is a junk spell that's only considered 9th level out of tradition, the knowledge that you're battling a 9th level spellcaster is a good indication of the power you're facing off against... just because a spellcaster knows Weird doesn't mean they don't know any other 9th level spells.
Would the BBEG take interesting over effective? And if a spellcaster casts weird, then yes, unless they have some sort of special magic item, then they're out of 9th level slots.
Sorcerers, wizards, and warlocks can only cast one 9th level spell per a day.
The BBEG wouldn't, but the DM might. If you find... let's say a ballroom that's been hit by Weird, it's very narratively interesting. It's a great Crime Scene to leave behind and let the players figure out what happened. Is it a good spell for a BBEG to stock and rely on in combat? Not at all. If anything it's best value is as a "nice" spell the DM can use to drop a 9th level spell that the players are likely to survive. I don't want to come off as too aggressively defending Weird... it's not well-balanced as a 9th level spell, and the effects it creates can be easily replicated by lower-level spells or just letting the DM homebrew a psychic wave attack or something to get more or less the same effect. But it's a cool way to leave behind a room of disturbing bodies while also telegraphing to your players that they're facing off against a creature that, at minimum, has access to 9th level spells.
Another thing to keep in mind is that NPCs aren't limited to the same rules as PCs. If the DM wants to say that the BBEG can cast Weird 3 times a day without consuming an actual spell slot, then that's how the creature works. It's not much of a defense of the spell... it's still not a good 9th level spell, and I'd wager it doesn't hold up against most 8th level spells either. But it has the potential to be narratively interesting, and for some DMs that's more important than being mechanically powerful.
I would argue that’s true for many DMs as our job is to make things interesting for the players.
I'm going to be lazy and chip in to both comments.
I actually agree with pretty uch everything said. I would want the spell kept for those reasons...but I'm a great believer in things being both flavourful and mechanically valid. Homebrew should be for fine tuning and adjusting to the specifics of the table. If I'm having to adjust the mechanics of something to make it viable...then there's something wrong with it. I'm of the opinion it should just be mechanically adjusted so the flavour and the mechanics are both strong aspects of the spell for its level. Mechanically, it's beaten by a 4th level spell, and that stinks.
A spell should be of an appropriate power and flavour for its level.
I agree with Linklite, I 100% understand and support people finding new and cool ways to use weird to scare the party and not cause deaths.
However, if 90% of the time you use the spell, you have to give the BBEG 3+ extra uses, or add extra charts for the spell to be effective, then it should NOT be a 9th level spell.
If you cast weird, you're in combat. It's not even possible to resolve its effects out of combat, because all of its effects require the victim to have a turn.
If you're defining "combat" as "any time you need to track turns", then sure
You asked about counting rounds out of combat, it's no different from counting turns. Also, weird has verbal and somatic components, so unless you have subtle spell it's going to put you in combat.
Whats the point of casting weird out of combat? The only effects it does are combat based (give your opponent disadvantage on attack rolls, and makes them take damage at the start of their turn if they keep failing the saving throw).
There are a lot better ways to make your opponents scared of you (to give the enemy the frightened condition which essentially only imposes combat disadvantages and doesn't even make them run away) then using your only 9th level spell slot to cast weird.
I think that a good DM could make good use of Weird for a BBEG in a way that a technically better spell wouldn't. Meteor Swarm will kill more people and destroy a ton of buildings, but Weird, if roleplayed correctly, would be far more interesting, despite doing less damage. If you walk into a village and a bunch of buildings have exploded and everything is on fire, that's certainly harrowing... a great hook for an average party. But you walk in, everything is perfectly intact but everyone is dead, the bodies left in panicked position, some of them have their eyes open wide in abject horror, some others curled up in balls, eyes shut tight, bodies still tense even after death. OoooOOoooohhh spoooOooooOOOOoooky. If the players aren't intimately familiar with all the spells in the game off the top of their head it just looks like maybe an Elder God sprung into life here or something. If they do some solid Arcana rolls or otherwise research this, they could then realize they're facing off against someone capable of casting 9th level spells. Even if you know enough about the game to know that Weird is a junk spell that's only considered 9th level out of tradition, the knowledge that you're battling a 9th level spellcaster is a good indication of the power you're facing off against... just because a spellcaster knows Weird doesn't mean they don't know any other 9th level spells.
Would the BBEG take interesting over effective? And if a spellcaster casts weird, then yes, unless they have some sort of special magic item, then they're out of 9th level slots.
Sorcerers, wizards, and warlocks can only cast one 9th level spell per a day.
The BBEG wouldn't, but the DM might. If you find... let's say a ballroom that's been hit by Weird, it's very narratively interesting. It's a great Crime Scene to leave behind and let the players figure out what happened. Is it a good spell for a BBEG to stock and rely on in combat? Not at all. If anything it's best value is as a "nice" spell the DM can use to drop a 9th level spell that the players are likely to survive. I don't want to come off as too aggressively defending Weird... it's not well-balanced as a 9th level spell, and the effects it creates can be easily replicated by lower-level spells or just letting the DM homebrew a psychic wave attack or something to get more or less the same effect. But it's a cool way to leave behind a room of disturbing bodies while also telegraphing to your players that they're facing off against a creature that, at minimum, has access to 9th level spells.
Another thing to keep in mind is that NPCs aren't limited to the same rules as PCs. If the DM wants to say that the BBEG can cast Weird 3 times a day without consuming an actual spell slot, then that's how the creature works. It's not much of a defense of the spell... it's still not a good 9th level spell, and I'd wager it doesn't hold up against most 8th level spells either. But it has the potential to be narratively interesting, and for some DMs that's more important than being mechanically powerful.
I would argue that’s true for many DMs as our job is to make things interesting for the players.
I'm going to be lazy and chip in to both comments.
I actually agree with pretty uch everything said. I would want the spell kept for those reasons...but I'm a great believer in things being both flavourful and mechanically valid. Homebrew should be for fine tuning and adjusting to the specifics of the table. If I'm having to adjust the mechanics of something to make it viable...then there's something wrong with it. I'm of the opinion it should just be mechanically adjusted so the flavour and the mechanics are both strong aspects of the spell for its level. Mechanically, it's beaten by a 4th level spell, and that stinks.
A spell should be of an appropriate power and flavour for its level.
I agree with Linklite, I 100% understand and support people finding new and cool ways to use weird to scare the party and not cause deaths.
However, if 90% of the time you use the spell, you have to give the BBEG 3+ extra uses, or add extra charts for the spell to be effective, then it should NOT be a 9th level spell.
Honestly, I agree with that... it's not up to snuff with 9th level spells. I know that it's very hard to balance that kind of thing... sometimes players come up with surprising comboes that make an unpopular spell useful, or a DM might roleplay in a way that makes illusion completely pointless, and in general other than having an idea of the average amount of damage an attack spell should deal for each level, there's not really any hard and fast rules about what, exactly, makes a spell a certain level. That said, 9th level spells should, at the very least, feel like they would completely break the game if you came across them at say... 8th level. Weird, though... I think you could start a campaign with an enemy casting Weird and it's possible to survive. Still, I'm kind of glad that there are a few "Dud" spells that a DM can use in some very key situations. Whether it's to catch their players off-guard with a spell that not everyone is familiar with, or if they can take advantage of their player's own knowledge to help convey information about a character's general power level.
I actually misinterpreted it, and my brain assumed that it required a Con Save to act, when it's only for subsequent turns. That is actually a lot better than I thought. I can see why it's an 8th level - you don't want them spamming that when fighting against single targets or the game would suck. It may seem a bit overestimated for an appropriate level, but I can see why for gameplay reasons. I'm not sure it being on a par with Weird, though. If you're up against a single target, it could be really good if the target is capable of outputting more damage than you are. Trade your turn to stop theirs, that's a free round for the rest of the party. The effect isn't one that's easily replicated by a lower level spell (to my knowledge), which is the condemning fact for Weird in my opinion.
Still, it does have those drawbacks. It could be useful (stunning them for a couple of rounds of they fail the save could be a game changer), but it is risky (assuming you're not metagaming). Is it better than Weird? I think this one scales with your opponent. Fighting Goblin, and it's pointless. A Tarrasque, it could be really good. Weird is the opposite - the higher CR you're fighting, the worse it gets, because they're more likely to shrug it off or have minimal effects.
I'd like to see it in action a few times before I offer final judgement.
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I would argue that’s true for many DMs as our job is to make things interesting for the players.
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If I wanted a plague of mooks dying to invisible causes, I'd use Phantasmal Force.
Yeah, sometimes Id like to drop a strong spell on the party to indicate the power of the entity they are up against, but I dont want to inadvertently cause a TPK. Having the BBEG cast Weird indicates that they are capable of using 9th-level magic and provides a fun roleplay opportunity as each party member might have to face their greatest fear. If all goes well, it could provide a round for the BBEG to vanish with the party knowing that they will likely be back one day to torment them further.
Hmmm, the more I talk about it the more I want to give Strahd the spell in my next CoS campaign. Granted, worst case scenario 4d10 for up to 10 turns could be nasty on a party of level 1-10, but since its concentration one could easily have him drop concentration when he feels he has thoroughly tormented the poor adventurers.
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I'm going to be lazy and chip in to both comments.
I actually agree with pretty uch everything said. I would want the spell kept for those reasons...but I'm a great believer in things being both flavourful and mechanically valid. Homebrew should be for fine tuning and adjusting to the specifics of the table. If I'm having to adjust the mechanics of something to make it viable...then there's something wrong with it. I'm of the opinion it should just be mechanically adjusted so the flavour and the mechanics are both strong aspects of the spell for its level. Mechanically, it's beaten by a 4th level spell, and that stinks.
A spell should be of an appropriate power and flavour for its level.
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Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 120 feet
Target: Each creature in a 30-foot-radius sphere centered on a point of your choice within range
Components: V, S, M (three nut shells)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
This spell assaults and twists creatures’ minds, spawning delusions and provoking uncontrolled actions. Each creature in a 30-foot-radius sphere centered on a point you choose within range must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw when you cast this spell or be affected by it.
An affected target can’t take reactions and must roll a d10 at the start of each of its turns to determine its behavior for that turn.
After the first round, on following rounds, at the beginning of it's turn, an affected target can make a Wisdom saving throw. It it succeeds, it is not affected by this spell for that round. Track the number of failed saves over the duration of this spell. The target gains an insanity level equal to the number of failed saves.
The target will be affected by insanity for a duration, in days, equal to it's insanity level. The affects of it's insanity are as follow.
Disadvantage on Mental Ability checks and spells.
You will become frightened of random creatures, places and objects determined by your DM.
Disadvantage on Attack rolls, skill checks and Saving Throws.
Every hour, you must make a DC 12 Wisdom saving throw or be affected with Short-Term Madness for 1d10 minutes.
Upon reaching level five, you become mentally Paralyzed. If you are still at Level 5 of Insanity after 1d4 days, you progress to Level 6.
You go permanently insane and fall under the DM's control. A character with permanent insanity may be reduced to a raving lunatic or may be outwardly indistinguishable from a normal person: either way, they may never go back to who they once were.
Any insanity level of 6 or greater is permanent and can only be removed with a quest. (The party taking the insane character with them on the quest.)
I think that Greater Restoration or at the very least Wish ought to be able to cure the effect. Having to go on a sidequest is majorly derailing, especially if multiple characters got affected that way. At that point you might as well just force the players to roll up new characters.
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Exhaustion doesn't feel right to me for the spell as it seems a bit too Necormantic. That said, I could see it working mechanically as maybe 1 level of exhaustion per failed save so eventually you could kill people with either the damage or multiple levels of exhaustion. I think it should be either confusion or exhaustion or something else....which now I've had a chance to look at the 3.5e version of the spell could be as simple as "a target that fails their saving throw is stunned and can attempt a further saving throw at the end of each of their turns, ending the stun on a successful saving throw." That way they take damage at the start of each turn and are stunned every turn they fail a saving throw. Which would probably make it a bit easier to DM the effects.
Edity: Do'h, I was to busy writing this to notice you had put up a new version of the spell......
This, uhh, might be an overcorrection
I can appreciate the "it's 9th level, it should be EPIC" approach, but ain't no way most DMs are keeping track of all that
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How about this:
The key thing here is that it's hard CC, and has a useful effect even on a successful save.
One thing about the saving throw DC on the spell as is: even understanding that NPCs don't have to calculate it the same way PCs do, it's still probably going to be higher than 20
A 17th-level PC wizard has a +6 prof bonus and probably at least a +5 stat bonus, before factoring in anything that might be stacked on top. The whole "requires multiple fails to be effective" complaint is kind of irrelevant against creatures that don't have a significant boost to their WIS saves
Again, that's true of any 9th-level spell like meteor swarm or prismatic wall, but it's not like weird is going to fail to take full effect against most creatures
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It's going to fail to take full effect because pretty much anything that can't make the save is going to be dead by round 2 for unrelated reasons (and if it's powerful, has a cruddy wisdom save, and isn't legendary, dominate monster is the clearly optimal choice).
Why are you tracking rounds out of combat
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But what about the ones that do have a decent bonus to their wisdom saves, do you want to give them to chances to not take damage.
And with ones that don't have a "significant" wisdom save bonus, why give them that extra chance? It's not irrelevent unless they physically cant save, just because the chances of your enemy succeeding are low doesn't mean you want to make them higher.
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HERE.If you cast weird, you're in combat. It's not even possible to resolve its effects out of combat, because all of its effects require the victim to have a turn.
If you're defining "combat" as "any time you need to track turns", then sure
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You asked about counting rounds out of combat, it's no different from counting turns. Also, weird has verbal and somatic components, so unless you have subtle spell it's going to put you in combat.
I agree with Linklite, I 100% understand and support people finding new and cool ways to use weird to scare the party and not cause deaths.
However, if 90% of the time you use the spell, you have to give the BBEG 3+ extra uses, or add extra charts for the spell to be effective, then it should NOT be a 9th level spell.
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HERE.Whats the point of casting weird out of combat? The only effects it does are combat based (give your opponent disadvantage on attack rolls, and makes them take damage at the start of their turn if they keep failing the saving throw).
There are a lot better ways to make your opponents scared of you (to give the enemy the frightened condition which essentially only imposes combat disadvantages and doesn't even make them run away) then using your only 9th level spell slot to cast weird.
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HERE.Honestly, I agree with that... it's not up to snuff with 9th level spells. I know that it's very hard to balance that kind of thing... sometimes players come up with surprising comboes that make an unpopular spell useful, or a DM might roleplay in a way that makes illusion completely pointless, and in general other than having an idea of the average amount of damage an attack spell should deal for each level, there's not really any hard and fast rules about what, exactly, makes a spell a certain level. That said, 9th level spells should, at the very least, feel like they would completely break the game if you came across them at say... 8th level. Weird, though... I think you could start a campaign with an enemy casting Weird and it's possible to survive. Still, I'm kind of glad that there are a few "Dud" spells that a DM can use in some very key situations. Whether it's to catch their players off-guard with a spell that not everyone is familiar with, or if they can take advantage of their player's own knowledge to help convey information about a character's general power level.
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