A summon spell that has a creature that fights for you is a combat spell no matter how you cast it.
Here are spells that have a casting time of 1 action or bonus action and are rituals. Most are definitely not combat spells and more utility. I didn’t go through all of them but things like Silence can be a good combat spell or utility.
But that's the point. Summoned creature(s) can do things other than fight for you, and if you aren't going to use it in combat when casting time matters, why not make it a ritual cast?
If you want to make a balance argument that it should still cost a spell slot to conjure a fire elemental to melt through a metal door, or a blink dog for your halfling to ride around on for an hour, that's fine. Ritual summonings and conjurings are a very weird absence from the game though
Sure summoned creatures can do more than just fight for you, but when their primary purpose, as described in their spell description, is combat then it is a balance issue.
You think it is fine (and not overpowered) to have your highest level summons up and running 24 hours a day because once per hour (or whatever their duration is) you can spend 10 minutes summoning them over and over?
You should probably try to avoid asking questions that already got answered in the thing you're quoting
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Here's why summoning spells should never be rituals: because any time you get at least ten minutes of prep time, you can simply send some disposable minions to trigger any traps while you remain safely away from them and bypass any puzzles or obstacles that might get in your way.
Unseen servant is far more restrictive than any summoning spell.
It can be used exactly in the way you said using summons would be OP - 10 minutes of prep time, send it ahead to trigger traps
There's three ritual spells in the game that involve sitting down and performing a ritual to summon or conjure something -- unseen servant, find familiar and phantom steed -- even though performing a ritual to summon some powerful thing is one of the most classic forms magic can take
That seems like a glaring oversight
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I think spells such as Conjure Minor Elementals could be a good candidate for a ritual spell, if you have some time then there is a themnatic, and dare i say "stereotypical" reason for them to be rituals. You could apply that to any spell that animates, summons or conjures a creature or item from Animate Dead upwards.
Let's be clear about what we mean by the word "ritual." Many summons take a minute to cast. Performing spell components for one minute is essentially doing a ritual, so those are already descriptively ritual casts. All you need to do here is describe yourself casting it.
This is different from the ritual keyword, which lets you cast a spell for free given some extra time. All I hear when someone argues a 4th+ spell should be a ritual is "I want free spell slots." I don't think the game needs that and I don't think ritual casters need even more of a benefit over non-ritual casters.
Note there is no given mechanics in 5e to deal with a party that's dragging their heels. Time has no value except what value the DM gives it. The more mechanics you add that only cost time, the more pressure is on the DM to make time matter.
Here's why summoning spells should never be rituals: because any time you get at least ten minutes of prep time, you can simply send some disposable minions to trigger any traps while you remain safely away from them and bypass any puzzles or obstacles that might get in your way.
Unseen servant is far more restrictive than any summoning spell.
It can be used exactly in the way you said using summons would be OP - 10 minutes of prep time, send it ahead to trigger traps
There's three ritual spells in the game that involve sitting down and performing a ritual to summon or conjure something -- unseen servant, find familiar and phantom steed -- even though performing a ritual to summon some powerful thing is one of the most classic forms magic can take
That seems like a glaring oversight
How D&D views rituals is very different to how they're often seen in popular media. Popular media sees magic as mostly cost free, and rituals are the jacked up version because you had to spend a long time doing them, verses the sentence or two length of normal spells. D&D sees magic as fairly scarce resource, and sees rituals as the weak spells that you can sacrifice a little time in order to avoid resource cost.
I'm not sure that there is a way to reconcile the two without the revamping 5e magic system.
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I think spells such as Conjure Minor Elementals could be a good candidate for a ritual spell, if you have some time then there is a themnatic, and dare i say "stereotypical" reason for them to be rituals. You could apply that to any spell that animates, summons or conjures a creature or item from Animate Dead upwards.
Let's be clear about what we mean by the word "ritual." Many summons take a minute to cast. Performing spell components for one minute is essentially doing a ritual, so those are already descriptively ritual casts. All you need to do here is describe yourself casting it.
This is different from the ritual keyword, which lets you cast a spell for free given some extra time. All I hear when someone argues a 4th+ spell should be a ritual is "I want free spell slots." I don't think the game needs that and I don't think ritual casters need even more of a benefit over non-ritual casters.
Note there is no given mechanics in 5e to deal with a party that's dragging their heels. Time has no value except what value the DM gives it. The more mechanics you add that only cost time, the more pressure is on the DM to make time matter.
That's a good point, I missed that -- the summons all have casting times of 1 action, but the higher-level conjures are 1 minute
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Here's why summoning spells should never be rituals: because any time you get at least ten minutes of prep time, you can simply send some disposable minions to trigger any traps while you remain safely away from them and bypass any puzzles or obstacles that might get in your way.
Unseen servant is far more restrictive than any summoning spell.
It can be used exactly in the way you said using summons would be OP - 10 minutes of prep time, send it ahead to trigger traps
There's three ritual spells in the game that involve sitting down and performing a ritual to summon or conjure something -- unseen servant, find familiar and phantom steed -- even though performing a ritual to summon some powerful thing is one of the most classic forms magic can take
That seems like a glaring oversight
Unseen Servant can be used to trigger one trap per casting most of the time, unless the trap dropped something harmless. Unseen Servant also has a max range of 60 feet, vs Summoning spells that can send the summoned critter out as far as you want them before the spell expires, and because the Unseen Servant has no actual intelligence of its own it's only capable of carrying out one task at a time. And unlike a summoned critter it can't be used for combat purposes.
Magic rituals are a thing in fiction and mythology, yes. Because with the exception of Jack Vance's writings, most of them don't use the Vancian magic system of casting via expending spell slots. This is not an oversight on the WotC D&D team's part. It's a balance limit.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Magic rituals are a thing in fiction and mythology, yes. Because with the exception of Jack Vance's writings, most of them don't use the Vancian magic system of casting via expending spell slots. This is not an oversight on the WotC D&D team's part. It's a balance limit.
Except, as scatter pointed out, they are in 5e already
As with so many other things, there's 'ritual' as a game mechanic and 'ritual' as common usage of the word, and conflating the two creates confusion
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Magic rituals are a thing in fiction and mythology, yes. Because with the exception of Jack Vance's writings, most of them don't use the Vancian magic system of casting via expending spell slots. This is not an oversight on the WotC D&D team's part. It's a balance limit.
Except, as scatter pointed out, they are in 5e already
As with so many other things, there's 'ritual' as a game mechanic and 'ritual' as common usage of the word, and conflating the two creates confusion
You're the only one who seems to have any issue.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
And here I only asked why there were no 4th lvl ritual spells.
Not exactly why any 4th lvl spells were not ritual.
They could have changed a few to make one or two rituals to 4th lvl or made a few all new ritual spells.
Just an idea for the future.
It's unlikely that a spell will be changed to be a ritual. Being a ritual confers significant benefits (especially Wizard spells) which is very hard to account for. You can't just up itna level because that merely delays access in most cases, which then plays havoc with its meta with the other spells. To do it, really the spell needs to be designed from the ground up with it in mind that it will be a ritual so it can be appropriate for its level, have an effect that won't break balance if it is spammed without spell slots and also still be in competition with its peers for yournattention (both that it doesn't eclipse them and isn't eclipsed by them).
We could see more added, but I don't think we'll see any converted for those reasons.
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You should probably try to avoid asking questions that already got answered in the thing you're quoting
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Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It can be used exactly in the way you said using summons would be OP - 10 minutes of prep time, send it ahead to trigger traps
There's three ritual spells in the game that involve sitting down and performing a ritual to summon or conjure something -- unseen servant, find familiar and phantom steed -- even though performing a ritual to summon some powerful thing is one of the most classic forms magic can take
That seems like a glaring oversight
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
A 10 minute rest after every encounter?
Why does your GM let that happen in a dungeon?
Noise draws in other monsters from pretty far away.
Let's be clear about what we mean by the word "ritual." Many summons take a minute to cast. Performing spell components for one minute is essentially doing a ritual, so those are already descriptively ritual casts. All you need to do here is describe yourself casting it.
This is different from the ritual keyword, which lets you cast a spell for free given some extra time. All I hear when someone argues a 4th+ spell should be a ritual is "I want free spell slots." I don't think the game needs that and I don't think ritual casters need even more of a benefit over non-ritual casters.
Note there is no given mechanics in 5e to deal with a party that's dragging their heels. Time has no value except what value the DM gives it. The more mechanics you add that only cost time, the more pressure is on the DM to make time matter.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
How D&D views rituals is very different to how they're often seen in popular media. Popular media sees magic as mostly cost free, and rituals are the jacked up version because you had to spend a long time doing them, verses the sentence or two length of normal spells. D&D sees magic as fairly scarce resource, and sees rituals as the weak spells that you can sacrifice a little time in order to avoid resource cost.
I'm not sure that there is a way to reconcile the two without the revamping 5e magic system.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
That's a good point, I missed that -- the summons all have casting times of 1 action, but the higher-level conjures are 1 minute
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Unseen Servant can be used to trigger one trap per casting most of the time, unless the trap dropped something harmless. Unseen Servant also has a max range of 60 feet, vs Summoning spells that can send the summoned critter out as far as you want them before the spell expires, and because the Unseen Servant has no actual intelligence of its own it's only capable of carrying out one task at a time. And unlike a summoned critter it can't be used for combat purposes.
Magic rituals are a thing in fiction and mythology, yes. Because with the exception of Jack Vance's writings, most of them don't use the Vancian magic system of casting via expending spell slots. This is not an oversight on the WotC D&D team's part. It's a balance limit.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Except, as scatter pointed out, they are in 5e already
As with so many other things, there's 'ritual' as a game mechanic and 'ritual' as common usage of the word, and conflating the two creates confusion
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You're the only one who seems to have any issue.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
And here I only asked why there were no 4th lvl ritual spells.
Not exactly why any 4th lvl spells were not ritual.
They could have changed a few to make one or two rituals to 4th lvl or made a few all new ritual spells.
Just an idea for the future.
New spells that are rituals might get added. Changing old spells to make them ritual spells is highly unlikely.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
It's unlikely that a spell will be changed to be a ritual. Being a ritual confers significant benefits (especially Wizard spells) which is very hard to account for. You can't just up itna level because that merely delays access in most cases, which then plays havoc with its meta with the other spells. To do it, really the spell needs to be designed from the ground up with it in mind that it will be a ritual so it can be appropriate for its level, have an effect that won't break balance if it is spammed without spell slots and also still be in competition with its peers for yournattention (both that it doesn't eclipse them and isn't eclipsed by them).
We could see more added, but I don't think we'll see any converted for those reasons.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.