So even their latest statement doesn't appease you. Can you state what would appease you and have you resub? As most have said here, "I am done with that Evil WOTC" If that is the case, then you are done and nothing you say has any more relevancy. You are done, you quit, and you are gone. So leave! If you aren't done, state what would keep you. What is it you really want other than to make yourself feel better that you got to vent and let others know how pissed you are. I can speak from experience on this. I did this very thing on Roll20. I spent 2 years being gaslighted by them over their Dynamic Lighting and then I shifted to FoundryVTT, yet I still trolled their forums constantly posting my negative feelings on the issue. I found that it didn't make a difference to Roll20 but I sure felt like crap alot of the time. So make yourself feel better and if you have truly cut the WOTC Cord, move on and never look back. I'm sure ORC and Paizo would love to have your money.
Their latest statement is a slap in the face. Dishonest and disingenious and only meant to cool tempers, so people stop being vocal. And, coming from a party with zero trustworthiness, it's not worth the paper it's printed on. In my opinion , the ONLY way for them to regain any kind of trustworthiness and respect would be to work/publish under ORC, instead of using their own OGL (or whatever they're gonna call it).
Choir, I don't think you've seen some of the threads about the Open Game License; There are people who's usernames are "**** Wizards of the Coast" (with the part in asterics spelled out), there are people who are screaming about how Wizards' statement is nothing but a pile of lies and that anyone who doesn't think so is bad, and finally, there are people (or one person for that matter) who has taken the time to private message me over how I am an unbelievably terrible person for advising others not to panic just yet.
In other words, Sposta is right that there is a difference between hateful vitriol and reasonable protest. I never thought I'd say this, but Yurei is doing a wonderful job on articulating how etiquette (or a lack thereof) can make or break your case.
The issue is that civil discourse is only viable and productive when there's mutual respect and an honest and open dialogue. All things that are lacking here. One party is not interested in negotiating. As ChoirOfFire said, this is not a negotiation. They're not soliciting feedback. It's not a dialogue. They did some damage-control, with no promises and plenty of uncertainties. They want us to stop saying no.
Advocating for people to remain civil and keeping the volume down, and being constructive is just detrimental. I would 100% agree if we were at a negotiation table or if we were having an honest dialogue. But, as that's not where we're at, being loud and vocal is the next best thing.
Mind you, there's a of course a huuuuge difference between being vocal and resorting to harassment. But asking people to chillax, or to "wait and see, we don't know anything yet", is both counter-productive, somewhat naive and more than a little condescending, in my opinion. We have nothing to gain by staying quiet, while Wotc has everything to gain from us staying quiet. And yes, they have everything to prove.
A reminder of business basics: Paizo is not a superhero. The ORC is a bald-faced PR stunt done to drive up sales of Pathfinder, and you can bet your buttered biscuit the ORC will be designed to Paizo's advantage. They're paying for it, they're going to make sure it suits their interests and objectives. Will the ORC take over the Industry Standard position from D&D? No clue, because the ORC doesn't exist yet. For all we know its terms will end up being worse than the OGL.
Treating Paizo as a Great Savior rescuing the fair-damsel TTRPG Community from the evil clutches of greedy grasping dragon Hasbrozards is as myopic as assuming Wizards can do no wrong. Paizo is making a calculated move to exploit a faux pas by their chief competition. Which is fine - if they can make it work, more power to 'em. But treating them as Ultrasaints because they haven't ****ed up yet is not a winning play.
I believe yurei’s point is, keeping up pressure on them is good. But if you say you’re not going to buy their products again, ever, no matter what they do, you are no longer exerting any pressure. If they just decided to completely forfeit all their rights and turn into a charity and give the game away for free, you won’t come back, if they they go to the other extreme and return to 1.1 as we saw it yesterday, you won’t come back. If you’re not coming back no matter what, why should they spend resources trying to make you happy.
What we’ve seen over the past couple days is that they will listen when their bottom line is impacted. But that cuts both ways. If you’re willing to say to them, make a reasonable ogl, and I’ll come back and start spending again, then they have a reason to listen to what you consider reasonable.
I get venting your anger. We are all passionate about this game. Personally, I was surprised to find how emotional I was getting yesterday at what they were doing to my game. At one point, I actually said out loud “How dare they” like I was on Downton Abbey or something (along with other things that will get censored if I type them here). But there’s been a vibe shift today. Pressure is still valuable, and is going to be at least until we see the next ogl draft. Anger has had its day, it’s not really productive right now.
Unless folks are just trying to burn the house down on their way out, which I don’t even know what to say, then.
I like 5e, I like One DnD, I play other RPG'S as well though. I play the Genesys system and it is my favorite system. I also play Pathfinder 2e and I love the flexibility of that system. I would love to see everyone succeed, but I do not trust Wizards anymore.
They have no way to win that trust. That is gone. However, there is a move that would keep my business. One DnD needs to join ORC. I dont trust them and I cant trust them, so Open Gaming needs to be out of their hands. If it is, I can trust the product without having to trust the company.
I’m saying to keep saying “no,” but not be nasty about it. Isn’t that reasonable?
Having no authority and also trying to police how people should respond is not really reasonable, no. Moderators do need to keep some semblance of decorum, but this thread and a ton of the responses here are the spitting image of an old man shouting at clouds.
I have every right to suggest to people that they be civil in this whole fiasco. That’s not “policing” anything, it’s just suggesting. And I never claimed to have any authority. I’m just trying to suggest to people that we keep the dumpster fire in the dumpster.
I believe yurei’s point is, keeping up pressure on them is good. But if you say you’re not going to buy their products again, ever, no matter what they do, you are no longer exerting any pressure. If they just decided to completely forfeit all their rights and turn into a charity and give the game away for free, you won’t come back, if they they go to the other extreme and return to 1.1 as we saw it yesterday, you won’t come back. If you’re not coming back no matter what, why should they spend resources trying to make you happy.
What we’ve seen over the past couple days is that they will listen when their bottom line is impacted. But that cuts both ways. If you’re willing to say to them, make a reasonable ogl, and I’ll come back and start spending again, then they have a reason to listen to what you consider reasonable.
I get venting your anger. We are all passionate about this game. Personally, I was surprised to find how emotional I was getting yesterday at what they were doing to my game. At one point, I actually said out loud “How dare they” like I was on Downton Abbey or something (along with other things that will get censored if I type them here). But there’s been a vibe shift today. Pressure is still valuable, and is going to be at least until we see the next ogl draft. Anger has had its day, it’s not really productive right now.
Unless folks are just trying to burn the house down on their way out, which I don’t even know what to say, then.
I’m saying to keep saying “no,” but not be nasty about it. Isn’t that reasonable?
Having no authority and also trying to police how people should respond is not really reasonable, no. Moderators do need to keep some semblance of decorum, but this thread and a ton of the responses here are the spitting image of an old man shouting at clouds.
I have every right to suggest to people that they be civil in this whole fiasco. That’s not “policing” anything, it’s just suggesting. And I never claimed to have any authority. I’m just trying to suggest to people that we keep the dumpster fire in the dumpster.
For clarity, I am not saying you are doing anything wrong. I am just saying you are not accomplishing anything. No one who is reading this is going to change what they are doing.
All I have to say to Yurei's original post is that this is exactly what needs to be said. I literally saw an account F**KWIZARDS without the censorship. I have been critical of some posters for their approach to the OGL 1.1, Yurei among them. But now is the time to build the bridge back up, both in the community and with WotC. Paizo and the rest are not your friends, they are looking to make money same as any other company. I want One D&D to succeed. I checked out a lot of systems, I started with 3.5, played a lot of d20 Modern, Dark Heresy, Call of Cthulhu, and none of them scratch an itch like 5e does, and One is probably going to be even better for me. I have signed the first few petitions and the Open Letter, but now is the time to work with WotC to move forward. The community won the first and most decisive engagement, but if WotC crashes and burns, the community will lose the war.
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DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
For clarity, I am not saying you are doing anything wrong. I am just saying you are not accomplishing anything. No one who is reading this is going to change what they are doing.
Sure. But maybe some of the silent masses who're watching this insane clown show and wondering what the actual hell is going on and why anyone would cave to this troop of baboons, let alone Wizards of the Coast, will see this thread and know they're not alone in disapproving of the hooliganism on display over the last day. Every two-post yaybo who's never before bothered to interact with the community here and is coming out of the woodwork to declare they're DONE FOREVER and that they'll NEVER TRUST WIZARDS AGAIN is making this place a worse place to be and poisoning the entire discussion. They're hooting completely unreasonable demands at the top of their lungs across literally the entire front page of this forum and most of the three or four pages behind it too, and making everything more difficult than it needs to be in the process.
They can cope with some of us trying to rein in the clown show a little, just like we have to cope with them howling at the moon like children throwing a tantrum.
Is there, though? That sounds a lot like civility politics to me. Like the backlash isn't acceptable unless it doesn't inconvenience anyone or annoy anyone. The real jerks are the ones complaining, kind of thing.
We're talking about people's jobs here. You understand that spewing vitriol *is* the nice option.
There's a difference between angry "I'm pissed off and I want this to change" invective and spiteful "All I care about is that you fail" invective. Virtually everything I've seen since the statement was released has been the latter sort.
If we're gonna be the Tone Police, then here: Instead of "you're like a sick animal," try "there are proven strategies, and this isn't one of them." I really don't know why you've gotta let your anger bleed into your writing like that. Is it cathartic? Or are you simply trying to ride the outrage algorithm wave? Don't you see how every thread devolves into infighting? This one didn't even make it one page without someone getting defensive. Do you want change badly enough to be nice about it, or not?
Many people no longer wish for Wizards to correct this mistake. They'd rather watch the whole game burn up and die so they can dance on the ashes and crow about how they were too smart to be fooled by Wizards' lame dumb attempt to fix things.
The game won't ever, but the company might. Would that be so bad? I'm not sure.
I dunno. I'm deeply cynical about anything economic. I'm a doomer and I'm not energized to learn useful techniques. My contributions to this topic are going to get steadily less and less valuable as time goes on, so I'm gonna bow out.
A reminder of business basics: Paizo is not a superhero. The ORC is a bald-faced PR stunt done to drive up sales of Pathfinder, and you can bet your buttered biscuit the ORC will be designed to Paizo's advantage. They're paying for it, they're going to make sure it suits their interests and objectives. Will the ORC take over the Industry Standard position from D&D? No clue, because the ORC doesn't exist yet. For all we know its terms will end up being worse than the OGL.
Treating Paizo as a Great Savior rescuing the fair-damsel TTRPG Community from the evil clutches of greedy grasping dragon Hasbrozards is as myopic as assuming Wizards can do no wrong. Paizo is making a calculated move to exploit a faux pas by their chief competition. Which is fine - if they can make it work, more power to 'em. But treating them as Ultrasaints because they haven't ****ed up yet is not a winning play.
Bull Hockey Pucks! ORC is a combination of MULTIPLE companies, Paizo, Kobold Press, Chaosium, Green Ronin, Legendary Games, Rogue Genius Games and more joining EVERY DAY to formulate an Irrevocable Open License for RPG Creative works usable by anybody perpetually. Unlike the OGL 1.0a copyrighted by Wizards of the Coast, NONE of these companies will hold ORC via copyright or ANY form of ownership by a corporation involved in the TTRPG industry. It will be held by a third party.
ORC is going to be what the OGL should have been to begin with.
The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
Even if that is true, and it might be, it will be years before ORC is functional, if it even takes off. But honestly, I don't much trust Paizo. They are many times bigger than Kobold Press and Kobold is many times bigger than any of the other companies starting ORC. Will Paizo really not use their obvious advantage?
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DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
Cool. It still doesn't exist yet, and it's still being paid for by Paizo. We don't yet know if their promise of leaving the license in the hands of a neutral third party will come to fruition or if they'll come out in a year and say "we're really sorry, we tried to live up to our promise, but we haven't managed to find a suitable holder for this license. Until we do, Paizo will reluctantly take up the mantle of steward and safeguard True Open Gaming from the depredations of our chief competition we're really trying our best to poison you against whilst maximally exploiting their ****up corporate bigwigs who don't understand the true soul of gaming."
Until it exists, the ORC is a nonfactor. It's a cloud on the horizon. Wizards is mindful of it, sure, but they've also got a giant head start even with the last week's gaffe. OGL 2.0 will hit and be usable long before the ORC will, and if they manage to not overreach like zombies digging for brains again? People will simply use and work with OGL 2.0 until given reason to switch. D&D is still the biggest game in town, we'd be well advised to try fixing it instead of burning it to the ground.
Cool. It still doesn't exist yet, and it's still being paid for by Paizo. We don't yet know if their promise of leaving the license in the hands of a neutral third party will come to fruition or if they'll come out in a year and say "we're really sorry, we tried to live up to our promise, but we haven't managed to find a suitable holder for this license. Until we do, Paizo will reluctantly take up the mantle of steward and safeguard True Open Gaming from the depredations of our chief competition we're really trying our best to poison you against whilst maximally exploiting their ****up corporate bigwigs who don't understand the true soul of gaming."
Until it exists, the ORC is a nonfactor. It's a cloud on the horizon. Wizards is mindful of it, sure, but they've also got a giant head start even with the last week's gaffe. OGL 2.0 will hit and be usable long before the ORC will, and if they manage to not overreach like zombies digging for brains again? People will simply use and work with OGL 2.0 until given reason to switch. D&D is still the biggest game in town, we'd be well advised to try fixing it instead of burning it to the ground.
So we should assume that Paizo is lying about their intentions, but we should believe WotC is telling the truth about theirs? That seems to be the gist of your stance from all the threads you're running around defending WotC in.
Even if that is true, and it might be, it will be years before ORC is functional, if it even takes off. But honestly, I don't much trust Paizo. They are many times bigger than Kobold Press and Kobold is many times bigger than any of the other companies starting ORC. Will Paizo really not use their obvious advantage?
This. Also, Paizo had 3 video games that sold well in the past 8 years or so, benefitting from their rise due entirely to the original 1.0a OGL. I would bet my cute dog that WotC was primarily focusing on stopping big companies/publishers from doing what Paizo has done. In other words, I think Paizo abused the OGL "Rules as Written" instead of the "Rules as Intended" - which was to foster small-time developers/designers/homebrewers.
I find it absurd to think that WotC would come breaking my door down to take away my small-potatoes operations rather than the $1m+ beneficiaries of the OGL. Let's be real...
Many people no longer wish for Wizards to correct this mistake. They'd rather watch the whole game burn up and die so they can dance on the ashes and crow about how they were too smart to be fooled by Wizards' lame dumb attempt to fix things.
The game won't ever, but the company might. Would that be so bad? I'm not sure.
I dunno. I'm deeply cynical about anything economic. I'm a doomer and I'm not energized to learn useful techniques. My contributions to this topic are going to get steadily less and less valuable as time goes on, so I'm gonna bow out.
Theoretical for you, because this is a point I've had to raise in other communities as well.
Say there's an IP that just hit the market. It's a storied IP, one that's well known and has a lot of potential for making money. It's on the market in the first place because the IP's consumer base just got done cannibalizing the last company to hold the IP and causing so much damage and outrage that the company who previously held the IP folded and died.
Tell me: do you, as a Corporate Person, pick up this IP which is only available because its previous owner was eaten alive by 'fans' and has been irreversibly poisoned by the event? Or do you treat it as radioactive and let it die out altogether? Or do you let it lay fallow for twenty or thirty years before somebody a few decades from now picks up the old dead license and makes a cynical-minded cash grab on nostalgia alone long after the brouhaha has contributed to the decline of tabletop after its unexpected surge in the teens and twenties?
I dunno what the right answer is. But it's an interesting question to consider.
Even if that is true, and it might be, it will be years before ORC is functional, if it even takes off. But honestly, I don't much trust Paizo. They are many times bigger than Kobold Press and Kobold is many times bigger than any of the other companies starting ORC. Will Paizo really not use their obvious advantage?
Seriously? Paizo isn't asking anyone to take them at their word. They're being transparent and establishing controls on their influence over things, and doing the whole thing in the open. They're trustworthy because they're taking steps to demonstrate they can be trusted, and to ensure that even if they had some evil long term plan, it'd be impossible to implement.
Its the same sort of stuff WotC should have done if they wanted the community to trust them.
There is zero equivalency between privately owned Paizo, run by people who are clearly members of the RPG community, and public Hasbro/WotC, run by executives at the whims of stockholders.
Yes, Paizo stands to gain financially from the current situation - because their largest competitor decided to shoot themselves in the face and present a golden opportunity. But nothing they have done is remotely evil, and they're absolutely stepping up and putting themselves on the line to protect other companies who, if Paizo were WotC, they'd consider their competitors.
Of course, thats the difference. Paizo understands how the industry at large can be symbiotic, and how the success of all parties involved can be interconnected - in large part because most of them were involved when Dungeons & Dragons 3/3.5 did that exact thing. WotC is short sighted and can't see anything but potential competitors who are taking 'their' money.
I'm already studying Starfinder's system, so I can DM a large-scale campaign for my friends. Until now we've only ever played DND.
Anything short of firing the entire executive team who made these terrible decisions cannot restore faith in the OGL or WotC and by doing so win us back. These executives tried to steal from their most passionate members of the community, remained silent for weeks as the outrage bubbled hoping it would blow over so they could still get away with it, and then have the nerve to gaslight us in their response. They still intend to take the action of forcing creators to accept new terms overriding OGL 1.0a's irrevocable and perpetual license or risk being sued.
OGL 1.1's terms were grotesque. Their response in which they lie about it being a draft demonstrates that at no step along the way have they shown any remorse or concern for the lives of creators they've upended and the community they destroyed. You are simply a wallet to be emptied.
Even if that is true, and it might be, it will be years before ORC is functional, if it even takes off. But honestly, I don't much trust Paizo. They are many times bigger than Kobold Press and Kobold is many times bigger than any of the other companies starting ORC. Will Paizo really not use their obvious advantage?
Are you kidding? The OGL took just a few months before it was out. It's one page and really didn't need more. I expect to see products released under ORC before the end of the year, and I would not be surprised if there was a major combined series of products from a large number of creators released in October, 2023 (ORCtober).
The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
I'm already studying Starfinder's system, so I can DM a large-scale campaign for my friends. Until now we've only ever played DND.
Anything short of firing the entire executive team who made these terrible decisions cannot restore faith in the OGL or WotC and by doing so win us back. These executives tried to steal from their most passionate members of the community, remained silent for weeks as the outrage bubbled hoping it would blow over so they could still get away with it, and then have the nerve to gaslight us in their response. They still intend to take the action of forcing creators to accept new terms overriding OGL 1.0a's irrevocable and perpetual license or risk being sued.
OGL 1.1's terms were grotesque. Their response in which they lie about it being a draft demonstrates that at no step along the way have they shown any remorse or concern for the lives of creators they've upended and the community they destroyed. You are simply a wallet to be emptied.
This is not the time to be quiet.
Seriously interested in Starfinder, and I could be won back if all C level executives in Hasborg and WotC lost their jobs. That will never happen because C level executives and Boards of Directors are a completely nepotistic structure in ALL of the corporate world.
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The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
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Their latest statement is a slap in the face. Dishonest and disingenious and only meant to cool tempers, so people stop being vocal. And, coming from a party with zero trustworthiness, it's not worth the paper it's printed on. In my opinion , the ONLY way for them to regain any kind of trustworthiness and respect would be to work/publish under ORC, instead of using their own OGL (or whatever they're gonna call it).
The issue is that civil discourse is only viable and productive when there's mutual respect and an honest and open dialogue. All things that are lacking here. One party is not interested in negotiating. As ChoirOfFire said, this is not a negotiation. They're not soliciting feedback. It's not a dialogue. They did some damage-control, with no promises and plenty of uncertainties. They want us to stop saying no.
Advocating for people to remain civil and keeping the volume down, and being constructive is just detrimental. I would 100% agree if we were at a negotiation table or if we were having an honest dialogue. But, as that's not where we're at, being loud and vocal is the next best thing.
Mind you, there's a of course a huuuuge difference between being vocal and resorting to harassment. But asking people to chillax, or to "wait and see, we don't know anything yet", is both counter-productive, somewhat naive and more than a little condescending, in my opinion. We have nothing to gain by staying quiet, while Wotc has everything to gain from us staying quiet. And yes, they have everything to prove.
A reminder of business basics: Paizo is not a superhero. The ORC is a bald-faced PR stunt done to drive up sales of Pathfinder, and you can bet your buttered biscuit the ORC will be designed to Paizo's advantage. They're paying for it, they're going to make sure it suits their interests and objectives. Will the ORC take over the Industry Standard position from D&D? No clue, because the ORC doesn't exist yet. For all we know its terms will end up being worse than the OGL.
Treating Paizo as a Great Savior rescuing the fair-damsel TTRPG Community from the evil clutches of greedy grasping dragon Hasbrozards is as myopic as assuming Wizards can do no wrong. Paizo is making a calculated move to exploit a faux pas by their chief competition. Which is fine - if they can make it work, more power to 'em. But treating them as Ultrasaints because they haven't ****ed up yet is not a winning play.
Please do not contact or message me.
I believe yurei’s point is, keeping up pressure on them is good. But if you say you’re not going to buy their products again, ever, no matter what they do, you are no longer exerting any pressure. If they just decided to completely forfeit all their rights and turn into a charity and give the game away for free, you won’t come back, if they they go to the other extreme and return to 1.1 as we saw it yesterday, you won’t come back. If you’re not coming back no matter what, why should they spend resources trying to make you happy.
What we’ve seen over the past couple days is that they will listen when their bottom line is impacted. But that cuts both ways. If you’re willing to say to them, make a reasonable ogl, and I’ll come back and start spending again, then they have a reason to listen to what you consider reasonable.
I get venting your anger. We are all passionate about this game. Personally, I was surprised to find how emotional I was getting yesterday at what they were doing to my game. At one point, I actually said out loud “How dare they” like I was on Downton Abbey or something (along with other things that will get censored if I type them here). But there’s been a vibe shift today. Pressure is still valuable, and is going to be at least until we see the next ogl draft. Anger has had its day, it’s not really productive right now.
Unless folks are just trying to burn the house down on their way out, which I don’t even know what to say, then.
I like 5e, I like One DnD, I play other RPG'S as well though. I play the Genesys system and it is my favorite system. I also play Pathfinder 2e and I love the flexibility of that system. I would love to see everyone succeed, but I do not trust Wizards anymore.
They have no way to win that trust. That is gone. However, there is a move that would keep my business. One DnD needs to join ORC. I dont trust them and I cant trust them, so Open Gaming needs to be out of their hands. If it is, I can trust the product without having to trust the company.
I have every right to suggest to people that they be civil in this whole fiasco. That’s not “policing” anything, it’s just suggesting. And I never claimed to have any authority. I’m just trying to suggest to people that we keep the dumpster fire in the dumpster.
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For clarity, I am not saying you are doing anything wrong. I am just saying you are not accomplishing anything. No one who is reading this is going to change what they are doing.
All I have to say to Yurei's original post is that this is exactly what needs to be said. I literally saw an account F**KWIZARDS without the censorship. I have been critical of some posters for their approach to the OGL 1.1, Yurei among them. But now is the time to build the bridge back up, both in the community and with WotC. Paizo and the rest are not your friends, they are looking to make money same as any other company. I want One D&D to succeed. I checked out a lot of systems, I started with 3.5, played a lot of d20 Modern, Dark Heresy, Call of Cthulhu, and none of them scratch an itch like 5e does, and One is probably going to be even better for me. I have signed the first few petitions and the Open Letter, but now is the time to work with WotC to move forward. The community won the first and most decisive engagement, but if WotC crashes and burns, the community will lose the war.
DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
Sure. But maybe some of the silent masses who're watching this insane clown show and wondering what the actual hell is going on and why anyone would cave to this troop of baboons, let alone Wizards of the Coast, will see this thread and know they're not alone in disapproving of the hooliganism on display over the last day. Every two-post yaybo who's never before bothered to interact with the community here and is coming out of the woodwork to declare they're DONE FOREVER and that they'll NEVER TRUST WIZARDS AGAIN is making this place a worse place to be and poisoning the entire discussion. They're hooting completely unreasonable demands at the top of their lungs across literally the entire front page of this forum and most of the three or four pages behind it too, and making everything more difficult than it needs to be in the process.
They can cope with some of us trying to rein in the clown show a little, just like we have to cope with them howling at the moon like children throwing a tantrum.
Please do not contact or message me.
If we're gonna be the Tone Police, then here: Instead of "you're like a sick animal," try "there are proven strategies, and this isn't one of them." I really don't know why you've gotta let your anger bleed into your writing like that. Is it cathartic? Or are you simply trying to ride the outrage algorithm wave? Don't you see how every thread devolves into infighting? This one didn't even make it one page without someone getting defensive. Do you want change badly enough to be nice about it, or not?
The game won't ever, but the company might. Would that be so bad? I'm not sure.
I dunno. I'm deeply cynical about anything economic. I'm a doomer and I'm not energized to learn useful techniques. My contributions to this topic are going to get steadily less and less valuable as time goes on, so I'm gonna bow out.
Bull Hockey Pucks! ORC is a combination of MULTIPLE companies, Paizo, Kobold Press, Chaosium, Green Ronin, Legendary Games, Rogue Genius Games and more joining EVERY DAY to formulate an Irrevocable Open License for RPG Creative works usable by anybody perpetually. Unlike the OGL 1.0a copyrighted by Wizards of the Coast, NONE of these companies will hold ORC via copyright or ANY form of ownership by a corporation involved in the TTRPG industry. It will be held by a third party.
ORC is going to be what the OGL should have been to begin with.
The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
Even if that is true, and it might be, it will be years before ORC is functional, if it even takes off. But honestly, I don't much trust Paizo. They are many times bigger than Kobold Press and Kobold is many times bigger than any of the other companies starting ORC. Will Paizo really not use their obvious advantage?
DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
Cool. It still doesn't exist yet, and it's still being paid for by Paizo. We don't yet know if their promise of leaving the license in the hands of a neutral third party will come to fruition or if they'll come out in a year and say "we're really sorry, we tried to live up to our promise, but we haven't managed to find a suitable holder for this license. Until we do, Paizo will reluctantly take up the mantle of steward and safeguard True Open Gaming from the depredations of
our chief competition we're really trying our best to poison you against whilst maximally exploiting their ****upcorporate bigwigs who don't understand the true soul of gaming."Until it exists, the ORC is a nonfactor. It's a cloud on the horizon. Wizards is mindful of it, sure, but they've also got a giant head start even with the last week's gaffe. OGL 2.0 will hit and be usable long before the ORC will, and if they manage to not overreach like zombies digging for brains again? People will simply use and work with OGL 2.0 until given reason to switch. D&D is still the biggest game in town, we'd be well advised to try fixing it instead of burning it to the ground.
Please do not contact or message me.
So we should assume that Paizo is lying about their intentions, but we should believe WotC is telling the truth about theirs? That seems to be the gist of your stance from all the threads you're running around defending WotC in.
This. Also, Paizo had 3 video games that sold well in the past 8 years or so, benefitting from their rise due entirely to the original 1.0a OGL. I would bet my cute dog that WotC was primarily focusing on stopping big companies/publishers from doing what Paizo has done. In other words, I think Paizo abused the OGL "Rules as Written" instead of the "Rules as Intended" - which was to foster small-time developers/designers/homebrewers.
I find it absurd to think that WotC would come breaking my door down to take away my small-potatoes operations rather than the $1m+ beneficiaries of the OGL. Let's be real...
Theoretical for you, because this is a point I've had to raise in other communities as well.
Say there's an IP that just hit the market. It's a storied IP, one that's well known and has a lot of potential for making money. It's on the market in the first place because the IP's consumer base just got done cannibalizing the last company to hold the IP and causing so much damage and outrage that the company who previously held the IP folded and died.
Tell me: do you, as a Corporate Person, pick up this IP which is only available because its previous owner was eaten alive by 'fans' and has been irreversibly poisoned by the event? Or do you treat it as radioactive and let it die out altogether? Or do you let it lay fallow for twenty or thirty years before somebody a few decades from now picks up the old dead license and makes a cynical-minded cash grab on nostalgia alone long after the brouhaha has contributed to the decline of tabletop after its unexpected surge in the teens and twenties?
I dunno what the right answer is. But it's an interesting question to consider.
Please do not contact or message me.
Seriously? Paizo isn't asking anyone to take them at their word. They're being transparent and establishing controls on their influence over things, and doing the whole thing in the open. They're trustworthy because they're taking steps to demonstrate they can be trusted, and to ensure that even if they had some evil long term plan, it'd be impossible to implement.
Its the same sort of stuff WotC should have done if they wanted the community to trust them.
There is zero equivalency between privately owned Paizo, run by people who are clearly members of the RPG community, and public Hasbro/WotC, run by executives at the whims of stockholders.
Yes, Paizo stands to gain financially from the current situation - because their largest competitor decided to shoot themselves in the face and present a golden opportunity. But nothing they have done is remotely evil, and they're absolutely stepping up and putting themselves on the line to protect other companies who, if Paizo were WotC, they'd consider their competitors.
Of course, thats the difference. Paizo understands how the industry at large can be symbiotic, and how the success of all parties involved can be interconnected - in large part because most of them were involved when Dungeons & Dragons 3/3.5 did that exact thing. WotC is short sighted and can't see anything but potential competitors who are taking 'their' money.
I'm already studying Starfinder's system, so I can DM a large-scale campaign for my friends. Until now we've only ever played DND.
Anything short of firing the entire executive team who made these terrible decisions cannot restore faith in the OGL or WotC and by doing so win us back. These executives tried to steal from their most passionate members of the community, remained silent for weeks as the outrage bubbled hoping it would blow over so they could still get away with it, and then have the nerve to gaslight us in their response. They still intend to take the action of forcing creators to accept new terms overriding OGL 1.0a's irrevocable and perpetual license or risk being sued.
OGL 1.1's terms were grotesque. Their response in which they lie about it being a draft demonstrates that at no step along the way have they shown any remorse or concern for the lives of creators they've upended and the community they destroyed. You are simply a wallet to be emptied.
This is not the time to be quiet.
Cancelled Master Tier Subscription because of OGL 1.1
Add your name to the #OpenDnD Letter to Wotc/Hasbro: https://www.opendnd.games/
Are you kidding? The OGL took just a few months before it was out. It's one page and really didn't need more. I expect to see products released under ORC before the end of the year, and I would not be surprised if there was a major combined series of products from a large number of creators released in October, 2023 (ORCtober).
The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.
Seriously interested in Starfinder, and I could be won back if all C level executives in Hasborg and WotC lost their jobs. That will never happen because C level executives and Boards of Directors are a completely nepotistic structure in ALL of the corporate world.
The age of OGL is over. The Time of the ORC has come!
The moment that WotC declares OGL 1.0a "de-authorized", "revoked" or any such nonsense is the moment I release as much content as possible under OGL 1.0a and say, "Sue me WotC". OGL1.0a cannot be revoked. If thousands of us do it, the countersuit will be a class action suit.