Really depends on the scenario; this is a high tier 2 party, meaning enemies will have access to tier 3 spells. If they have reason to expect pursuit/intruders, it’s entirely reasonable they set up countermeasures. Granted, several of the examples given were bad interactions or heavy handed, but this is definitely far enough into the game that magic traps and area effects are fair game to put into play.
The question is always why should those countermeasures have been active in the first place. Most of the time, they shouldn’t be.
Many of the protections are static defenses that would be active all the time. They aren't going to be all over the place because they're somewhat expensive (in both materials and time) to set up, but they'd certainly exist in high security locations.
Regarding the dragon, that’s literally how blue dragons hunt, for one. Additionally, dragons keep a close watch on their territory; if the party just strolled in without even attempting stealth, it’s entirely reasonable for the dragon to be aware of their presence and set up an ambush. The others are definitely sketchy, though.
The dragon stays burrowed all the time just in case? How would that work for eating?
Does that ray of light go off on anything living? Normal animals included? That would be a lot of glyph recasting. Would get expensive.
And adventurers are regularly turned into demons, no saves? How does that work?
I didn't say everything described in the OP is reasonable (though option 2 is fine; glyph of warding is capable of distinguishing based on creature type).
Although I agree with most of the advice here, scouting familiars getting murdered makes complete sense to me in many situations.
These characters live in a world where Find Familiar exists. They know how it works and what people use it for. Thus any rat, bird, or spider wandering into a paranoid dragons lair is absolutely getting roasted. Undefined invisible thing creeping into my cave? Yeah, it's getting blasted if it's not Hiding.
Now I'm not going to have the castle guards shoot down every crow that flies over, but when you send something into a confined space in enemy territory you should moderate your expectations as to how it's going to turn out. You're probably not the first one who's tried it.
A ray of light from nowhere frying the (invisible) imp? Maybe a glyph, but even then? It was flying and invisible, but seems to have been hit directly. No reason to assume it not hidden. Not sure how many DM's would require someone to say "I'm hiding" after going invisible
Eh, I'd advise very strongly against this take. Invisible is a very different condition than undetected, and is much easier to achieve. An imp moving through an area completely undetected would need to make stealth checks every time it moved, and unless you want to be extremely tedious with that it stands to reason that those checks would occasionally fail. This is because in 5e you are not supposed to just waltz around completely undetected for the cost of a level 2 spell or an unlimited use class feature. To put it another way, no Pact familiar does not invalidate every other scouting option available to PCs.
Yes, the invisible creature being pinpointed with a laser is objectionable. But it getting fried by an area spell is not only reasonable, I'd even say it not getting got would be a sign of lax security or even downright incompetence. In a world with Find Familiar, it would be known by everyone that tiny creatures in secure places may very well be spies, and invisible creatures in secure spaces would be automatically be considered hostile.
The “why” is rather obvious, if this is someone’s lair. Keep in mind that no familiar has the Beast type; they’re all Fey, Fiends, or Celestials. Even the imp’s transformation doesn’t affect that, so setting up a glyph or other magical trap to trigger and blast when something of one of those types enters the area is a decent frontline defense against the most basic magical scouting tool. It’s a little hardball, sure, but it’s not unreasonable for an entrenched enemy to have a counter for the tactic. Granted, we have very limited context on the situation and some of the other examples do suggest railroading, but the basic premise of this particular example isn’t that egregious on its own.
The “why” is rather obvious, if this is someone’s lair. Keep in mind that no familiar has the Beast type; they’re all Fey, Fiends, or Celestials. Even the imp’s transformation doesn’t affect that, so setting up a glyph or other magical trap to trigger and blast when something of one of those types enters the area is a decent frontline defense against the most basic magical scouting tool.
Frankly, the extreme disposability of familiars in 5e is a bad mechanic that eliminates a lot of interesting game play, so I don't blame DMs who limit their effectiveness, but it should be done in a relatively fair manner.
okay, so majority can agree that these were potentially heavy handed reactions but not beyond the pale. i say we issue them a fine of 300 imaginary silver coins and two days community service (as a dm to the same group, non-consecutive afternoons), then move on to cases with more evidence.
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Hello there, I'm brand new to dungeons and dragons and a friend invited me to play. They were lvl 9, so I made a sorlock. I feel like most of the things that I do are punished and I wanted to better understand if this is how the game works.
I believe a large part of the problem is starting brand new at level 9. If you want to get a better understanding of the game you should start over at level 1.
I don't think it's fair to pass any judgement on your DM regarding how they are handling your familiar, because you don't know what they have going on in the background of a game that's already been run to level 9.
There could be dozens of reasons why your familiar is dying so much that are perfectly acceptable, but for a brand new player it will all seem heavy handed without the DM explaining it in a meta-way.
Curse of Strahd is a good example of a module where the BBEG is constantly messing with the party in the background, which could be something your party is running into with spies and stuff meddling around.
As far as the other stuff you mention, it is hard to know what's going on without your DM joining in on this thread and explaining to us what's going on in their game, so as far as that I would save the criticisms.
If I were to judge the DM for anything, it should be starting a brand new player, with little to no understanding of the game, at level 9. You probably didn't even get a session zero since you joined mid campaign. To me, that's the only red flag I see here.
Hello there, I'm brand new to dungeons and dragons and a friend invited me to play. They were lvl 9, so I made a sorlock. I feel like most of the things that I do are punished and I wanted to better understand if this is how the game works.
I believe a large part of the problem is starting brand new at level 9. If you want to get a better understanding of the game you should start over at level 1.
I don't think it's fair to pass any judgement on your DM regarding how they are handling your familiar, because you don't know what they have going on in the background of a game that's already been run to level 9.
There could be dozens of reasons why your familiar is dying so much that are perfectly acceptable, but for a brand new player it will all seem heavy handed without the DM explaining it in a meta-way.
Curse of Strahd is a good example of a module where the BBEG is constantly messing with the party in the background, which could be something your party is running into with spies and stuff meddling around.
As far as the other stuff you mention, it is hard to know what's going on without your DM joining in on this thread and explaining to us what's going on in their game, so as far as that I would save the criticisms.
If I were to judge the DM for anything, it should be starting a brand new player, with little to no understanding of the game, at level 9. You probably didn't even get a session zero since you joined mid campaign. To me, that's the only red flag I see here.
You are probably right, I had kind of had a zero session where he explained the events and how I would fit in the story. I explained the character I would like to play and he said everything fit in with the world. After reading many comments, I do agree that he doesn't like familiars, but if he was uncomfortable with them, he should have explained that to me.
I was very hesitant to join a mid campaign and been lvl 9, but both my friend and the DM insisted that I joined. I just don't have fun playing with my character after a couple sessions. taking 22 dmg from a misty step and then another 20ish dmg from blink, just didn't make sense to me. Not even counting the whole familiar always dies part haha
To somewhat defend the DM -- any effect that detects or keys off of creature type (such as detect evil and good) will reveal a familiar, and 9th level is more than high enough level that it's reasonable for bad guys to have made enough preparation that it will be necessary to be clever to spy on them, at least in more secure areas (for example, an evil temple that's protected by hallow or forbiddance), but it does sound like he was being pretty ham handed, and countermeasures shouldn't mean your ability is useless, just limited.
I see, and I forbiddance seems like a really cool spell! But why would I take 22 dmg from trying to misty step through a key hole? and right after another 20ish from Blink?
I see, and I forbiddance seems like a really cool spell! But why would I take 22 dmg from trying to misty step through a key hole? and right after another 20ish from Blink?
I have no idea. There are plenty of effects (including forbiddance) that would cause those spells to fail, but none that would cause damage.
Of course, the DM can invent effects. However, it's the DM's responsibility to do so fairly, and to remember that PCs are supposed to be creating their own story, not playing bit parts in the DMs story, and it sounds like your DM doesn't understand that. You aren't being penalized for 'utility', you're being penalized for not following the script.
What I am getting at here, mostly, though, is that, even if that risk does exist, the PC should know about it and be forewarned against it.
Unless it's a magical trap -- but it's generally a good idea for DMs to make it clear that this wasn't arbitrary, this was triggering a trap, and make it so that taking countermeasures against traps actually has some effect.
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The question is always why should those countermeasures have been active in the first place. Most of the time, they shouldn’t be.
Really depends on the scenario; this is a high tier 2 party, meaning enemies will have access to tier 3 spells. If they have reason to expect pursuit/intruders, it’s entirely reasonable they set up countermeasures. Granted, several of the examples given were bad interactions or heavy handed, but this is definitely far enough into the game that magic traps and area effects are fair game to put into play.
Many of the protections are static defenses that would be active all the time. They aren't going to be all over the place because they're somewhat expensive (in both materials and time) to set up, but they'd certainly exist in high security locations.
Regarding the dragon, that’s literally how blue dragons hunt, for one. Additionally, dragons keep a close watch on their territory; if the party just strolled in without even attempting stealth, it’s entirely reasonable for the dragon to be aware of their presence and set up an ambush. The others are definitely sketchy, though.
I didn't say everything described in the OP is reasonable (though option 2 is fine; glyph of warding is capable of distinguishing based on creature type).
Eh, I'd advise very strongly against this take. Invisible is a very different condition than undetected, and is much easier to achieve. An imp moving through an area completely undetected would need to make stealth checks every time it moved, and unless you want to be extremely tedious with that it stands to reason that those checks would occasionally fail. This is because in 5e you are not supposed to just waltz around completely undetected for the cost of a level 2 spell or an unlimited use class feature. To put it another way, no Pact familiar does not invalidate every other scouting option available to PCs.
Yes, the invisible creature being pinpointed with a laser is objectionable. But it getting fried by an area spell is not only reasonable, I'd even say it not getting got would be a sign of lax security or even downright incompetence. In a world with Find Familiar, it would be known by everyone that tiny creatures in secure places may very well be spies, and invisible creatures in secure spaces would be automatically be considered hostile.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
The “why” is rather obvious, if this is someone’s lair. Keep in mind that no familiar has the Beast type; they’re all Fey, Fiends, or Celestials. Even the imp’s transformation doesn’t affect that, so setting up a glyph or other magical trap to trigger and blast when something of one of those types enters the area is a decent frontline defense against the most basic magical scouting tool. It’s a little hardball, sure, but it’s not unreasonable for an entrenched enemy to have a counter for the tactic. Granted, we have very limited context on the situation and some of the other examples do suggest railroading, but the basic premise of this particular example isn’t that egregious on its own.
Forbiddance is the convenient reusable form.
Frankly, the extreme disposability of familiars in 5e is a bad mechanic that eliminates a lot of interesting game play, so I don't blame DMs who limit their effectiveness, but it should be done in a relatively fair manner.
It allows you to make a stealth check when ordinarily one would not be allowed.
Every move is a bit much, imo, but at intervals is fair. Even a chainlock familiar should not have near flawless stealth at will.
okay, so majority can agree that these were potentially heavy handed reactions but not beyond the pale. i say we issue them a fine of 300 imaginary silver coins and two days community service (as a dm to the same group, non-consecutive afternoons), then move on to cases with more evidence.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Sounds like a case of the DM not letting the player have a moment
Enjoy your slop. I'll be enjoying good products elsewhere.
Deleted; thought I was in a different thread here.
I believe a large part of the problem is starting brand new at level 9. If you want to get a better understanding of the game you should start over at level 1.
I don't think it's fair to pass any judgement on your DM regarding how they are handling your familiar, because you don't know what they have going on in the background of a game that's already been run to level 9.
There could be dozens of reasons why your familiar is dying so much that are perfectly acceptable, but for a brand new player it will all seem heavy handed without the DM explaining it in a meta-way.
Curse of Strahd is a good example of a module where the BBEG is constantly messing with the party in the background, which could be something your party is running into with spies and stuff meddling around.
As far as the other stuff you mention, it is hard to know what's going on without your DM joining in on this thread and explaining to us what's going on in their game, so as far as that I would save the criticisms.
If I were to judge the DM for anything, it should be starting a brand new player, with little to no understanding of the game, at level 9. You probably didn't even get a session zero since you joined mid campaign. To me, that's the only red flag I see here.
You are probably right, I had kind of had a zero session where he explained the events and how I would fit in the story. I explained the character I would like to play and he said everything fit in with the world. After reading many comments, I do agree that he doesn't like familiars, but if he was uncomfortable with them, he should have explained that to me.
I was very hesitant to join a mid campaign and been lvl 9, but both my friend and the DM insisted that I joined. I just don't have fun playing with my character after a couple sessions. taking 22 dmg from a misty step and then another 20ish dmg from blink, just didn't make sense to me. Not even counting the whole familiar always dies part haha
I see, and I forbiddance seems like a really cool spell! But why would I take 22 dmg from trying to misty step through a key hole? and right after another 20ish from Blink?
I have no idea. There are plenty of effects (including forbiddance) that would cause those spells to fail, but none that would cause damage.
Of course, the DM can invent effects. However, it's the DM's responsibility to do so fairly, and to remember that PCs are supposed to be creating their own story, not playing bit parts in the DMs story, and it sounds like your DM doesn't understand that. You aren't being penalized for 'utility', you're being penalized for not following the script.
Unless it's a magical trap -- but it's generally a good idea for DMs to make it clear that this wasn't arbitrary, this was triggering a trap, and make it so that taking countermeasures against traps actually has some effect.