I made a dual wielding level 7 bladesinger wizard and 1 level in fighter for two weapon fighting. My ac with mage armor, dual wielding feat, and bladesong is 23. Is that really good or just good for level 8 and as a wizard?
If you just need a level in Fighter for Two-Weapon Fighting, you are better off going full Wizard and grab a second Feat at level 8 for Fighting Initiate and get Two-Weapon Fighting that way. Taking a level to detour into Fighter slows down your spell progression, which is not worth it in my opinion.
I also would not bother with Mage Armor. It is better to just invest in better light armor to get your base AC to 13 than to waste spell slots on Mage Armor to get to 13.
To be fair, Bladesinger is arguably MAD enough that between a one level wait from a dip and a four level wait from a feat the dip is more efficient. Plus Mage Armor is 13+DEX, so it is better than any normal light armor. Really, by this point a single level 1 slot on a Wizard isn't worth much. With Arcane Recovery, a 7th level Wizard is up to 12-15 spell slots a day.
Regarding how good the AC is, that's better than plate, a shield, and the AC boosting fighting style by two points. Granted, it's worth noting that technically you're gonna have a hard time casting most spells like this, since with both hands full you can't cast anything with an M or S component unless you sheathe one of the weapons, thus losing the Dual Wielding AC bonus. Ruby of the War Mage can cover the M part, but per RAW won't account for any spells with an S but no M; you'd need the War Caster feat for that. But that is- unfortunately- an interaction that's often ignored.
To be fair, Bladesinger is arguably MAD enough that between a one level wait from a dip and a four level wait from a feat the dip is more efficient. Plus Mage Armor is 13+DEX, so it is better than any normal light armor. Really, by this point a single level 1 slot on a Wizard isn't worth much. With Arcane Recovery, a 7th level Wizard is up to 12-15 spell slots a day.
You are not losing just spell slots though. You are also slowing down spell progression, so you are always a little behind. And I do not see the point of wasting a spell slot on Mage Armor when a one time investment in Studded Leather +1 will do. You cannot cast Shield until you get Warcaster, but you can still cast Silvery Barbs with that 1st level spell slot for defense.
Well, there's the fact that Studded Leather +1 is a rare magic item, so it could cost thousands of gold assuming your DM allows it to be something you can just walk into a store and buy.
With regards to the dual wielder and 2 weapon fighting, the loss of spellcasting ability has me thinking the 2 weapons aren't worth it. Get a good Rapier and keep a free hand. It might drop your AC to 22, but that's still 27 after Shield, but that is still very high AC for a level 8. I built a "Spellsword" myself, going EK then dipping into Bladesinger for the Bladesong AC boost. Got extra attacks, good HP and some "bonus" spell slots when dipping, and went Rapier + Shield until the Bladesong became available.
Either way, 23 is a nice, high AC, my only down is the inability to cast a lot of spells, including Shield.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Yes, you have a high AC sometimes. Unfortunately you still have wizard HP and by level 8 you're getting close to the point where standing back and casting spells all combat like a regular wizard is going to be better than getting into melee 95% of the time. It may seem strong on paper but it's not broken in play.
This is true; Bladesingers are very much glass cannons in melee as you hit higher level play. That’s not to say melee is completely out of the question, but you’ll want to pick your battles.
In my honest opinion, having an AC higher than 20 is too much, too OPed and power gamy. Removing the risk of ever getting hit, and further lowering the risk of dying, where is the fun?
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Enjoy your slop. I'll be enjoying good products elsewhere.
There's very few ways for a Wizard to get saving throw buffs, though. Plus a lot of saving throw effects are half on success, so assuming a decent damage output you're still not gonna last long.
In my honest opinion, having an AC higher than 20 is too much, too OPed and power gamy. Removing the risk of ever getting hit, and further lowering the risk of dying, where is the fun?
Only if you have a GM who's allergic to using monsters that have a +10 or higher to hit on their attacks.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I mean, all a high AC means is they should start tossing a few more save based attacks your way.
That is true. But if you got them buffs for them saves, either naturally or from items.. you're right back to square one. xD
There have been arguments about allegedly invincible characters with high ACs and excellent saving throws to everything before. The last time I saw someone actually try to stat one out instead of just theorycraft, it was an illegal multiclass (the character didn't meet the prerequisites for all the classes it had levels in) that still had glaring weaknesses that were easy to exploit. And was also quite underpowered when it came to offensive or party-support capability.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
In my honest opinion, having an AC higher than 20 is too much, too OPed and power gamy. Removing the risk of ever getting hit, and further lowering the risk of dying, where is the fun?
Anecdotal, but I just looked at the logs of my level 5 game tonight - playing the published Icewind Dale module - and for the last thing we fought, 3 out of 5 of its attacks would have hit a 23 AC. And we had blinded it, so these were made with disadvantage. If we'd had a bladesinger, it would have gone down after two of those hits. The enemy had a +9 to hit so the DM was rolling well, but suffice it to say that an AC above 20 hardly "removes the risk of ever being hit." While AC is supposed to be flat in 5e, it is not. Enemy rolls increase as you level up.
And not to mention that even a 45 AC can fail a saving throw just as easily as a naked commoner. You don't need to beat someone's AC to kill them.
I made a dual wielding level 7 bladesinger wizard and 1 level in fighter for two weapon fighting. My ac with mage armor, dual wielding feat, and bladesong is 23. Is that really good or just good for level 8 and as a wizard?
If you just need a level in Fighter for Two-Weapon Fighting, you are better off going full Wizard and grab a second Feat at level 8 for Fighting Initiate and get Two-Weapon Fighting that way. Taking a level to detour into Fighter slows down your spell progression, which is not worth it in my opinion.
I also would not bother with Mage Armor. It is better to just invest in better light armor to get your base AC to 13 than to waste spell slots on Mage Armor to get to 13.
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To be fair, Bladesinger is arguably MAD enough that between a one level wait from a dip and a four level wait from a feat the dip is more efficient. Plus Mage Armor is 13+DEX, so it is better than any normal light armor. Really, by this point a single level 1 slot on a Wizard isn't worth much. With Arcane Recovery, a 7th level Wizard is up to 12-15 spell slots a day.
Regarding how good the AC is, that's better than plate, a shield, and the AC boosting fighting style by two points. Granted, it's worth noting that technically you're gonna have a hard time casting most spells like this, since with both hands full you can't cast anything with an M or S component unless you sheathe one of the weapons, thus losing the Dual Wielding AC bonus. Ruby of the War Mage can cover the M part, but per RAW won't account for any spells with an S but no M; you'd need the War Caster feat for that. But that is- unfortunately- an interaction that's often ignored.
Yes AC 23 is freaking good at level 8, most likely among the best in the party, if not the highest one.
You are not losing just spell slots though. You are also slowing down spell progression, so you are always a little behind. And I do not see the point of wasting a spell slot on Mage Armor when a one time investment in Studded Leather +1 will do. You cannot cast Shield until you get Warcaster, but you can still cast Silvery Barbs with that 1st level spell slot for defense.
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Well, there's the fact that Studded Leather +1 is a rare magic item, so it could cost thousands of gold assuming your DM allows it to be something you can just walk into a store and buy.
With regards to the dual wielder and 2 weapon fighting, the loss of spellcasting ability has me thinking the 2 weapons aren't worth it. Get a good Rapier and keep a free hand. It might drop your AC to 22, but that's still 27 after Shield, but that is still very high AC for a level 8. I built a "Spellsword" myself, going EK then dipping into Bladesinger for the Bladesong AC boost. Got extra attacks, good HP and some "bonus" spell slots when dipping, and went Rapier + Shield until the Bladesong became available.
Either way, 23 is a nice, high AC, my only down is the inability to cast a lot of spells, including Shield.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Yes, you have a high AC sometimes. Unfortunately you still have wizard HP and by level 8 you're getting close to the point where standing back and casting spells all combat like a regular wizard is going to be better than getting into melee 95% of the time. It may seem strong on paper but it's not broken in play.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
This is true; Bladesingers are very much glass cannons in melee as you hit higher level play. That’s not to say melee is completely out of the question, but you’ll want to pick your battles.
In my honest opinion, having an AC higher than 20 is too much, too OPed and power gamy. Removing the risk of ever getting hit, and further lowering the risk of dying, where is the fun?
Enjoy your slop. I'll be enjoying good products elsewhere.
I mean, all a high AC means is they should start tossing a few more save based attacks your way.
That is true. But if you got them buffs for them saves, either naturally or from items.. you're right back to square one. xD
Enjoy your slop. I'll be enjoying good products elsewhere.
There's very few ways for a Wizard to get saving throw buffs, though. Plus a lot of saving throw effects are half on success, so assuming a decent damage output you're still not gonna last long.
Only if you have a GM who's allergic to using monsters that have a +10 or higher to hit on their attacks.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
There have been arguments about allegedly invincible characters with high ACs and excellent saving throws to everything before. The last time I saw someone actually try to stat one out instead of just theorycraft, it was an illegal multiclass (the character didn't meet the prerequisites for all the classes it had levels in) that still had glaring weaknesses that were easy to exploit. And was also quite underpowered when it came to offensive or party-support capability.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Anecdotal, but I just looked at the logs of my level 5 game tonight - playing the published Icewind Dale module - and for the last thing we fought, 3 out of 5 of its attacks would have hit a 23 AC. And we had blinded it, so these were made with disadvantage. If we'd had a bladesinger, it would have gone down after two of those hits. The enemy had a +9 to hit so the DM was rolling well, but suffice it to say that an AC above 20 hardly "removes the risk of ever being hit." While AC is supposed to be flat in 5e, it is not. Enemy rolls increase as you level up.
And not to mention that even a 45 AC can fail a saving throw just as easily as a naked commoner. You don't need to beat someone's AC to kill them.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm