While MOAR STATs is always good, big M is probably on a par with a demi-god and so probably shouldn't be 'killable'. Asmodeus is a deity and again is probably more akin to a force of nature. It would have been cool to have them for completeness, especially considering that 'instead' we got OotA reprints.
While I do think Mephistopheles can and should be statted, as the most powerful after Asmodeus, he needs to be at least CR 27. The whole demi-gods shouldn't be statted argument ceases to hold weight when Tiamat is in the game. I do agree that creatures as powerful as Asmodeus have no business being statted however, his level of divinity varies from setting to setting but in FR he is a greater deity.
While I do think Mephistopheles can and should be statted, as the most powerful after Asmodeus, he needs to be at least CR 27. The whole demi-gods shouldn't be statted argument ceases to hold weight when Tiamat is in the game.
I do agree that creatures as powerful as Asmodeus have no business being statted however, his level of divinity varies from setting to setting but in FR he is a greater deity.
Tiamat's a deity too though. If she can have a meaningful stat block, so can Asmodeus.
While I do think Mephistopheles can and should be statted, as the most powerful after Asmodeus, he needs to be at least CR 27. The whole demi-gods shouldn't be statted argument ceases to hold weight when Tiamat is in the game.
I do agree that creatures as powerful as Asmodeus have no business being statted however, his level of divinity varies from setting to setting but in FR he is a greater deity.
Tiamat's a deity too though. If she can have a meaningful stat block, so can Asmodeus.
I appreciate that twitter ruling, but all it did was obscure my intent while at the same time being a superfluous comment, because you knew what I meant. While I see what you're saying, greater deities like Bane, Cyric, and Pelor, etc will most likely never be statted because there is no point in statting a creature that can essentially remove beings from existence with the snap of the wrist.
I appreciate that twitter ruling, but all it did was obscure my intent while at the same time being a superfluous comment, because you knew what I meant. While I see what you're saying, greater deities like Bane, Cyric, and Pelor, etc will most likely never be statted because there is no point in statting a creature that can essentially remove beings from existence with the snap of the wrist.
What's the point of statting a creature that requires you to cross 8 layers of hell containing his armies and archdevils and break into his fortress to confront him? It's more or less the same thing. Maybe Asmodeus can't just will you out of existence, but:
You're not going to reach his throne room unless he wants you to.
He doesn't have to fight you alone.
If there's any chance you can kill him, he's not going to stick around.
The collective forces of the Abyss haven't been able to kill him since the dawn of time.
His own archdevils, which have the benefit of being on the inside, haven't been able to overthrow him either.
I appreciate that twitter ruling, but all it did was obscure my intent while at the same time being a superfluous comment, because you knew what I meant. While I see what you're saying, greater deities like Bane, Cyric, and Pelor, etc will most likely never be statted because there is no point in statting a creature that can essentially remove beings from existence with the snap of the wrist.
What's the point of statting a creature that requires you to cross 8 layers of hell containing his armies and archdevils and break into his fortress to confront him? It's more or less the same thing. Maybe Asmodeus can't just will you out of existence, but:
You're not going to reach his throne room unless he wants you to.
He doesn't have to fight you alone.
If there's any chance you can kill him, he's not going to stick around.
The collective forces of the Abyss haven't been able to kill him since the dawn of time.
His own archdevils, which have the benefit of being on the inside, haven't been able to overthrow him either.
So he may as well be as invincible as Pelor.
All of the reasons you listed are what make archdevils great characters when it comes to defining a plot. While incredibly difficult to harm or even inconvenience a creature like Mephistopheles (as it should be) he can still be harmed or even killed, that is a thing that CAN happen to an archdevil. Any character that has knowledge of the planes should be able to tell you that killing a devil in the Nine Hells will kill it for good. The things you just mentioned are what put creatures like devils far above mortals, if your average person is a commoner with 4 hp, then the odds of mortals ever directly affecting a creature like an archdevil or a demon lord are justifiably minuscule. That is part of the d&d universe narrative.
Player characters however, have degrees of plot armor, so a dm could conceive a story where the PCS kill Zariel or Demogorgon because these creatures weaknesses are built into the narrative, kill them on their home plane. Gods don't have that. Under normal circumstances a god isn't something that can be confronted by strength of arms or magic.
I mean there is also theoretically one other reason. Which would rely on people having played back in 3.5. There was an expansion so to speak called Epic Levels. Which was the game tier where you were meant to fight gods, one could argue they could keep some high-level big bads of near god tier back in case they event wanted to go that route. And before people quote about Tiamat and the demon lords, Tiamat was an avatar not full god mode and unlike the devils where their mega tier are limited to 9 + Tiamat. Demons have a near infinite number of demons lords (theoretically 1 per tier of the abyss)
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Loex - A Lizardfolk Lvl 4/7/4 Hexblade Profane Blood Hunter/ Battlesmith Artificer/ Cleric of the Forge Arborea - A Warforged Lvl 5 Hexblade Warlock Archive - A Autognome Lvl 3 Old One Warlock ER15 - A Autognome Lvl 7 Binder Warlock
How many people would actually find the stats useful?
Note I say useful, not interesting. I had the Deities and Demigods book, and I don't think my players ever faced a single entity in it. I remember we tried to have a 1V1 god battle using the stats, but even that was disappointing. The number of campaigns that would actually culminate in a battle with such a major player in the Blood Wars is going to be statistically small...The only time I've even heard of a successful attack on Orcus, the players (NOT just the characters) were being paid!
Also, I believe Mr. Mordenkainen was drawing upon personal knowledge when he compiled this book - if he has not actively fought Asmodeus or Mephistopheles, then providing stats upon them might throw some doubt upon some of the other entries....and that, I believe, is the true reason they were not included.
Either that, or Mephistopheles' lawyers have put a block on the press publishing details of his personal life....In which case, hire a band of stalwart adventurers to steal the documents from Mr. Mordenkainen and then leak them to the interweb thingy. What an adventure that could be.
If there would be an Asmodeus or Mephistopheles stat block, it wouldn't be in MToF because, like stated before, they are more powerful than the other ones currently there. There might be official stat blocks made for them if they were put in an adventure module, like Tiamat, but currently there are no such modules Who knows, maybe the new Waterdeep Dragon Heist or Waterdeep Dungeon of the Mad Mage modules will have their stat blocks. I can see Mephistopheles inside the Undermountain, toying with the characters while they make their way through the caverns underneath........
There is "Epic Legacy" for 5e, where players can basically go over level 20 and beat up gods. They literally incorporated the stat blocks of a few Great Old Ones, who are basically god tier. I rule that Asmodeus is much too powerful for a typical adventure, but if you are using Epic Legacy you could definitely give him a stat block.
Tiamat appears in Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus, and I didn't notice any stat changes, so Tiamat is very much a god that you can throw into any adventure as written. We have statted out a god, so we should for others, like Asmodeus.
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Nononononono. Asmodius is one of the two most powerful beings in the multiverse, if not the most powerful. He would have to be, like, CR 50. That should never be statted out.
Nononononono. Asmodius is one of the two most powerful beings in the multiverse, if not the most powerful. He would have to be, like, CR 50. That should never be statted out.
I was under the impression that Asmodeus himself wasn't super powerful, but Ahriman was, and was the deity that would be around CR 50, and Asmodeus would be between CR 30-40. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Nononononono. Asmodius is one of the two most powerful beings in the multiverse, if not the most powerful. He would have to be, like, CR 50. That should never be statted out.
I was under the impression that Asmodeus himself wasn't super powerful, but Ahriman was, and was the deity that would be around CR 50, and Asmodeus would be between CR 30-40. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Alright, fair enough. I should have been more specific.
Nononononono. Asmodeus is the avatar of Ahriman, one of the two most powerful beings in the multiverse, if not the most powerful. Ahriman would have to be, like, CR 80-100, so Asmodeus would have to be at least CR 50. That should never be statted out.
Any stat block for a deity, high level devil, etc is going to be lacking because spells are only created (in the 5e world) up to 9th level. They aren't subject to Mystra's Ban, and as such aren't capped at 9th level spells. Sure, it would be fun to homebrew some 10th-20th (or higher) level spells that they can cast at will, but what's the point? Any stat block would have to be an avatar, like Tiamat's was in RoT. (Even if all the missions were failed and she showed up at the full stat block given, that's not her "true" stats)
Your getting stuck on info these none nerds dont knoe, remember theres more then 1 creation story for asmodeus. I believe your talking about the one were he was one of the creators? Also remember in past editions a CR 50 creature is mlMore powerful then most gods
Nononononono. Asmodius is one of the two most powerful beings in the multiverse, if not the most powerful. He would have to be, like, CR 50. That should never be statted out.
I was under the impression that Asmodeus himself wasn't super powerful, but Ahriman was, and was the deity that would be around CR 50, and Asmodeus would be between CR 30-40. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Alright, fair enough. I should have been more specific.
Nononononono. Asmodeus is the avatar of Ahriman, one of the two most powerful beings in the multiverse, if not the most powerful. Ahriman would have to be, like, CR 80-100, so Asmodeus would have to be at least CR 50. That should never be statted out.
Your getting stuck on info these none nerds dont know, remember theres more then 1 creation story for asmodeus. I believe your talking about the one were he was one of the creator serpents? Also remember in past editions a CR 50 creature is More powerful then most gods
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So we are short the top two Devils in the Nine Hells. Who else isn't in there? Will there be an adventure or a new rule books with them?
Or should they have been included?
Love the new book just noticed their absence.
While MOAR STATs is always good, big M is probably on a par with a demi-god and so probably shouldn't be 'killable'. Asmodeus is a deity and again is probably more akin to a force of nature. It would have been cool to have them for completeness, especially considering that 'instead' we got OotA reprints.
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While I do think Mephistopheles can and should be statted, as the most powerful after Asmodeus, he needs to be at least CR 27. The whole demi-gods shouldn't be statted argument ceases to hold weight when Tiamat is in the game. I do agree that creatures as powerful as Asmodeus have no business being statted however, his level of divinity varies from setting to setting but in FR he is a greater deity.
She's not really in the game in a "here's a stat block you can put into any adventure!" kind of way though. She has a stat block for a specific adventure.
Tiamat's a deity too though. If she can have a meaningful stat block, so can Asmodeus.
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So he may as well be as invincible as Pelor.
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For the problem of fighting a god or demigod, why not explain it as an aspect of that deity. That's what they did with Tiamat.
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I mean there is also theoretically one other reason. Which would rely on people having played back in 3.5. There was an expansion so to speak called Epic Levels. Which was the game tier where you were meant to fight gods, one could argue they could keep some high-level big bads of near god tier back in case they event wanted to go that route. And before people quote about Tiamat and the demon lords, Tiamat was an avatar not full god mode and unlike the devils where their mega tier are limited to 9 + Tiamat. Demons have a near infinite number of demons lords (theoretically 1 per tier of the abyss)
Loex - A Lizardfolk Lvl 4/7/4 Hexblade Profane Blood Hunter/ Battlesmith Artificer/ Cleric of the Forge
Arborea - A Warforged Lvl 5 Hexblade Warlock
Archive - A Autognome Lvl 3 Old One Warlock
ER15 - A Autognome Lvl 7 Binder Warlock
DM - "Malign Intelligence"
I mean a thing to ask is has anyone here actully asked via the twitters at the DnD staff why they did not include all the archdevils?
Loex - A Lizardfolk Lvl 4/7/4 Hexblade Profane Blood Hunter/ Battlesmith Artificer/ Cleric of the Forge
Arborea - A Warforged Lvl 5 Hexblade Warlock
Archive - A Autognome Lvl 3 Old One Warlock
ER15 - A Autognome Lvl 7 Binder Warlock
DM - "Malign Intelligence"
How many people would actually find the stats useful?
Note I say useful, not interesting. I had the Deities and Demigods book, and I don't think my players ever faced a single entity in it. I remember we tried to have a 1V1 god battle using the stats, but even that was disappointing.
The number of campaigns that would actually culminate in a battle with such a major player in the Blood Wars is going to be statistically small...The only time I've even heard of a successful attack on Orcus, the players (NOT just the characters) were being paid!
Also, I believe Mr. Mordenkainen was drawing upon personal knowledge when he compiled this book - if he has not actively fought Asmodeus or Mephistopheles, then providing stats upon them might throw some doubt upon some of the other entries....and that, I believe, is the true reason they were not included.
Either that, or Mephistopheles' lawyers have put a block on the press publishing details of his personal life....In which case, hire a band of stalwart adventurers to steal the documents from Mr. Mordenkainen and then leak them to the interweb thingy. What an adventure that could be.
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If there would be an Asmodeus or Mephistopheles stat block, it wouldn't be in MToF because, like stated before, they are more powerful than the other ones currently there. There might be official stat blocks made for them if they were put in an adventure module, like Tiamat, but currently there are no such modules Who knows, maybe the new Waterdeep Dragon Heist or Waterdeep Dungeon of the Mad Mage modules will have their stat blocks. I can see Mephistopheles inside the Undermountain, toying with the characters while they make their way through the caverns underneath........
it's been a long time...
There is "Epic Legacy" for 5e, where players can basically go over level 20 and beat up gods. They literally incorporated the stat blocks of a few Great Old Ones, who are basically god tier. I rule that Asmodeus is much too powerful for a typical adventure, but if you are using Epic Legacy you could definitely give him a stat block.
Tiamat appears in Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus, and I didn't notice any stat changes, so Tiamat is very much a god that you can throw into any adventure as written. We have statted out a god, so we should for others, like Asmodeus.
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Nononononono. Asmodius is one of the two most powerful beings in the multiverse, if not the most powerful. He would have to be, like, CR 50. That should never be statted out.
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I was under the impression that Asmodeus himself wasn't super powerful, but Ahriman was, and was the deity that would be around CR 50, and Asmodeus would be between CR 30-40. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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Alright, fair enough. I should have been more specific.
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Any stat block for a deity, high level devil, etc is going to be lacking because spells are only created (in the 5e world) up to 9th level. They aren't subject to Mystra's Ban, and as such aren't capped at 9th level spells. Sure, it would be fun to homebrew some 10th-20th (or higher) level spells that they can cast at will, but what's the point? Any stat block would have to be an avatar, like Tiamat's was in RoT. (Even if all the missions were failed and she showed up at the full stat block given, that's not her "true" stats)
Your getting stuck on info these none nerds dont knoe, remember theres more then 1 creation story for asmodeus. I believe your talking about the one were he was one of the creators? Also remember in past editions a CR 50 creature is mlMore powerful then most gods
Your getting stuck on info these none nerds dont know, remember theres more then 1 creation story for asmodeus. I believe your talking about the one were he was one of the creator serpents? Also remember in past editions a CR 50 creature is More powerful then most gods