I was never planning on leaving but I was scared to death D&D would die. But Caerwyn_Glyndwr and a few others calmed me down, and I really understood the reality when someone said they had 18 hobbies for 30 years or so and of all those hobbies only one crashed and burned, but all were allegedly constantly on the verge of imploding. Finally all my doubts were dispelled with the success of Baldur's Gate 3 and the DDB Maps VTT. Funnily enough I was planning on making a 1-year anniversary post about OGL myself!
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DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
Nah, the community balances out what wotc does. I submit my concerns to Hasbro, in hopes they keep wotc in check, and I create stuff and share it with the community, and hope others will too.
I've got all the tools to play dnd, so even if it does crash and burn because wotc doesnt know how to keep itself in check, ive got many "wayback machines" in place to keep going on without them.
Raising a shield as one of 3 actions is not a headache at all, but exactly how a game like PF or D&D should be played. If actions are going to be codified, (as 5e does) then this is how it should be done. As a player in PF and 5e, I have no problem adjusting my activity to following the rules as written. And if you don't know what ACKS is, I don't know what to tell you. There is nothing I can say about you commenting about something you say have no idea what it is about.
Simply declaring "this is how it should be done" without explanation isn't very convincing. And if you're trying to sell the benefits of your favored system, simply directing people to do a bunch of research on their own time isn't the most effective approach either.
I have to admit - even with this not really being my fight, as stated above - I kinda wanted the fallout to be greater. I'm sort of pro-revolution, I want for the common man to RISE UP against the mind shackles of the soulless corporations, but I don't expect them to, and I'm not joining myself =) This, it saddens me to report, is what's wrong with the world. Although I'm propably getting too philosophical over the OGL.
The fallout was HUGE.
I'm sorry to say, I completely disagree.
As far as I can tell, all the evidence points to the fallout being very, very minor indeed - in any measurable way - and the OGL that was eventually passed contains all the same things that the original did, but with a lot of changes and assurances.
That might call for a short explanation. To my mind, there was the intention of the OGL, and the perceived intention of the OGL. The real intention was to protect copyrights, and to ensure that large 3rd party creators (software companies and movie producers, I primarily imagine) couldn't make millions of dollars on D&D or D&D-like products without sharing. The perceived intention was that Hasbro had decided to grab the small change out of the pockets of a large number of very minor players.
So. Point being, the latter was never the intention - even if the admittedly hamhanded hackjob of a licence allowed for it. So, new license, tailored by brighter minds to achieve the original goal without all the pointless collateral damage.
So in essence, the OGL hasn't changed in any way that makes a real difference. Except it has stilled the storm, which of course makes the difference of stilling the storm.
My group has currently switched from D&D to Cyberpunk.
How is Cyberpunk these days? I played it - once - in the late 90's, and ... well, it wasn't great, so much so that I played Shadowrun instead, and Shadowrun ... well it simply doesn't work as a system.
Like I said, Shadowdark grossed over a million on Kickstarter, Colville's MCDM is up to 3.4 million, with 14 days to go, Pazio sold out all their book stock after the OGL.
These sound like amounts that Hasbro wouldn't bend over to pick up if they found them lying in the street. What sources I've been able to locate show precisely no dip in earnings - at all, at any point since 2015. That's not to say I know everything - I definitely don't - but as far as I can tell from publicly available sources, there hasn't been any measurable impact at all.
LOL...you are conflating MTG with D&D. MtG has been carrying all the water, and recently the incredible good luck of what what the 3rd party Larian put out, which was started 6 YEARS ago, long before ANYONE making decisions at wotc/hasbro was there. D&D is barely treading water. And if you think that the 5 or 10 million bucks, which is the barest of minimums that 3rd parties and competitors are earning, is nothing to the D&D people (not talking MtG), you really have not been reading financial reports.
False and directly contradicted by the financial reports you are telling others to read. The financial reports are very, very, very clear that D&D is consistently rising in membership, and was trending up with strong numbers before BG3. BG3 poured gas on an already strong fire.
I have to admit - even with this not really being my fight, as stated above - I kinda wanted the fallout to be greater. I'm sort of pro-revolution, I want for the common man to RISE UP against the mind shackles of the soulless corporations, but I don't expect them to, and I'm not joining myself =) This, it saddens me to report, is what's wrong with the world. Although I'm propably getting too philosophical over the OGL.
The fallout was HUGE.
I'm sorry to say, I completely disagree.
As far as I can tell, all the evidence points to the fallout being very, very minor indeed - in any measurable way - and the OGL that was eventually passed contains all the same things that the original did, but with a lot of changes and assurances.
That might call for a short explanation. To my mind, there was the intention of the OGL, and the perceived intention of the OGL. The real intention was to protect copyrights, and to ensure that large 3rd party creators (software companies and movie producers, I primarily imagine) couldn't make millions of dollars on D&D or D&D-like products without sharing. The perceived intention was that Hasbro had decided to grab the small change out of the pockets of a large number of very minor players.
So. Point being, the latter was never the intention - even if the admittedly hamhanded hackjob of a licence allowed for it. So, new license, tailored by brighter minds to achieve the original goal without all the pointless collateral damage.
So in essence, the OGL hasn't changed in any way that makes a real difference. Except it has stilled the storm, which of course makes the difference of stilling the storm.
My group has currently switched from D&D to Cyberpunk.
How is Cyberpunk these days? I played it - once - in the late 90's, and ... well, it wasn't great, so much so that I played Shadowrun instead, and Shadowrun ... well it simply doesn't work as a system.
Like I said, Shadowdark grossed over a million on Kickstarter, Colville's MCDM is up to 3.4 million, with 14 days to go, Pazio sold out all their book stock after the OGL.
These sound like amounts that Hasbro wouldn't bend over to pick up if they found them lying in the street. What sources I've been able to locate show precisely no dip in earnings - at all, at any point since 2015. That's not to say I know everything - I definitely don't - but as far as I can tell from publicly available sources, there hasn't been any measurable impact at all.
LOL...you are conflating MTG with D&D. MtG has been carrying all the water, and recently the incredible good luck of what what the 3rd party Larian put out, which was started 6 YEARS ago, long before ANYONE making decisions at wotc/hasbro was there. D&D is barely treading water. And if you think that the 5 or 10 million bucks, which is the barest of minimums that 3rd parties and competitors are earning, is nothing to the D&D people (not talking MtG), you really have not been reading financial reports.
False and directly contradicted by the financial reports you are telling others to read. The financial reports are very, very, very clear that D&D is consistently rising in membership, and was trending up with strong numbers before BG3. BG3 poured gas on an already strong fire.
That is NOT what the last financials showed at all. I posted the comments and numbers days ago, straight from hasbro's website.
Actually, what they showed was focus on other areas, but making it very clear that D&D should not be lumped in with any of the aspect of the business that were contracting. Though they did not mention specific growth in D&D this quarter, that was because the limited space they dedicated to D&D was spent mentioning BG3.
That is pretty standard in financial reports of parent companies—the individual breakdown of the subsidiary’s sales is not that important, only the bottom line. The new developments you highlight, and the billion dollar brand you talk about, but maintaining growth from a smaller brand, you don’t really spend the very limited space on—you just make it clear it is not shrinking. That is exactly what they did here. This is particularly true in quarterly reports, which are more snapshots supposed to be read in the context of the other quarter’s reporting.
The reality? Every single report in recent history has consistently demonstrated that D&D is growing. In fact, it is growing at about the same percentage of Magic—14% of a brand worth hundreds of millions is just less notable than 13% growth in a brand worth over a billion.
My group has currently switched from D&D to Cyberpunk.
How is Cyberpunk these days? I played it - once - in the late 90's, and ... well, it wasn't great, so much so that I played Shadowrun instead, and Shadowrun ... well it simply doesn't work as a system.
Is alright. The game system seems to work well enough for the most part. There are some things I would change, but nothing major. I’m not a huge fan of the setting however, and much prefer Shadowrun myself personally. I love the blend of fantasy and sci-fi that setting presents, and I prefer the lore from Shadowrun what with the Amerindian influences and all. But I hear that Shadowrun’s mechanics are 💩 this edition, and everyone else is into Cyberpunk (because of the video game), so that’s what we’re playing primarily. 🤷♂️
Hasbro backed down from the OGL. Hasbro gave a ton of material onto Creative Commons. That fight is over, and many of us came back. We were disappointed when Hasbro sent the Pinkertons to harass a content creator for MTG. and we feel like trust was lost permanently. But as the DM, I am required by my group to continue a sub on DnDB, as P2E is not the right system for them. (
Honestly frustrated that they couldn't live with that system, it's good, but sadly they want OP 5th edition characters, a system that I do not want to use any more as a DM
.)
So yes still here, looking at Hasbro being stupid and greedy and possibly wrecking WOTC to a point the company might fold sooner than later. At least plenty of 5th ed is on CC now, so the system can survive forever now, regardless if WotC fails because of Hasbro.
Wait: nothing that was typed by PsyrenXY was a lie.
Not even an exaggeration.
D&D is growing, is strong, and is a key driver of Hasbro -- none of this is false, and all of it can be read or discerned from reports and publicly available data.
It is the dominant TTRPG and is the default against all others are measured and the most successful of all TTRPGs. Where other TTRPGs are struggling to raise 5 million in cash, D&D itself (without Mtg) made 750 million in 2021 alone, and is poised to break 1 billion either this fiscal year or next.
I remain in the camp of investors who want to see D&D spun off to be its own company (and Magic spun off as its own company as well, separate from D&D). I am still upset i gave my proxy over for that and they didn't succeed.
I get that some folks just want everyone else to be mad at Hasbro and WotC for their own reasons, but really, doing so is a waste of time, energy, and life -- and calling the truth about them a lie is neither wise nor honest.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
The best information we have about the meaningfulness of the OGL to the greater community comes from Wizards’ polling—their OGL poll brought in a fifth of the voters of their 2024 playtest content, indicating significant, but not overwhelming interest. The clear confusion is that the overwhelming majority of players care far more about the game’s development and direction—and thus are showing their long-term commitment to the game—then over a licensing dispute.
Anecdotally, outside of these forums, no one I knew super cared. There was one person who said the OGL was causing them to leave D&D for Pathfinder—but they were a militant Pathfinder advocate before the OGL thing, so it did not actually change anything about their opinion (they’re also back to D&D, since they realised it is far easier to get and retain players for D&D games than Pathfinder ones). The rest of my social circle expressed complete indifference, mild curiosity followed by complete indifference once they got more information, or frustration at the angry fans for their legal ignorance and wanton spread of misinformation. Overall, no one I know other than here, either in my playgroups or the other online communities I am in, actually changed anything about how they played based on this issue.
You realize that when that survey dropped, most of the YouTube personalities leading the war on the OGL told their viewer not to vote on it. That sharp drop in replies shows how many people on here were following the YouTube content creators advice on the situation.
At the local gaming cafe, I really don't know how many were even aware of the OGL, but I am confident to say that 5e has gone from 80% of all games played to more like 60%, even 50%. I know of a Warhammer Fantasy table, two PF2e, one PF1e table, plus my AD&D 1e table, all that run regularly, and there are likely more I don't know of. Pre-Covid there were no PF or AD&D games there. I would love to see even more games tried. My 1e table is trying out an OSE funnel on Sat, and there is someone in the local Discord trying to get a 3rd PF2e table up and running.
Oh, and of the 5e tables at the cafe, I know at least 2 that are NOT going anywhere near 6e when it comes out. Any of that material is being banned. But then, 6e is ultimately not going to be conducive to in-person sessions, as opposed to virtual sessions, so I don't think wotc really cares that much about that.
Now I wish we had a TTRPG cafe with warhammer RPG, I would love to get a Savage Worlds group together for Deadlands, or maybe Traveller <- my favorite setting
Oh, and of the 5e tables at the cafe, I know at least 2 that are NOT going anywhere near 6e when it comes out. Any of that material is being banned. But then, 6e is ultimately not going to be conducive to in-person sessions, as opposed to virtual sessions, so I don't think wotc really cares that much about that.
First off, it is not 6e. Second, those of us who have been playing the 2024 updates know that it is just as conductive to in-person play as the 2014 rules are. You know both these things; you have been told both these things multiple times. Really not sure why you insist on spreading misinformation—knowingly repeating the same falsehoods strongly indicates you have less than savoury motivations for being here.
D&D players, as a whole, are scared of change. I expect once 2024 releases, and it becomes clear just how little change there is, many of the holdouts who have legitimate concerns (so, not the militant anti-Wizards folks, the anti-5e folks, and the bigots who don’t like that Wizards is trying to be more inclusive) will begin to adapt.
Well no matter what Hasbro wants to call it, the community will call it what they want to. Most of use are half way between 6.0 and 5.5, no one will call it D&D2024 as that is too wordy and not descriptive in a way that makes sense.
You realize that when that survey dropped, most of the YouTube personalities leading the war on the OGL told their viewer not to vote on it. That sharp drop in replies shows how many people on here were following the YouTube content creators advice on the situation.
You mean the YouTube content creators who "switched" to Pathfinder, got absolutely wrecked by a combination of the algorithm and general disinterest in the broader TTRPG audience, and switched back?
Well no matter what Hasbro wants to call it, the community will call it what they want to. Most of use are half way between 6.0 and 5.5, no one will call it D&D2024 as that is too wordy and not descriptive in a way that makes sense.
I completely agree with calling it 5.5e. I don't see the big deal with avoiding that term, and that's a criticism of WotC dancing around the issue too.
You realize that when that survey dropped, most of the YouTube personalities leading the war on the OGL told their viewer not to vote on it. That sharp drop in replies shows how many people on here were following the YouTube content creators advice on the situation.
You mean the YouTube content creators who "switched" to Pathfinder, got absolutely wrecked by a combination of the algorithm and general disinterest in the broader TTRPG audience, and switched back?
Well no matter what Hasbro wants to call it, the community will call it what they want to. Most of use are half way between 6.0 and 5.5, no one will call it D&D2024 as that is too wordy and not descriptive in a way that makes sense.
I completely agree with calling it 5.5e. I don't see the big deal with avoiding that term, and that's a criticism of WotC dancing around the issue too.
Since Pathfinder was mentioned, I personally like their “Remastered” label for PF2e. It seems to be exactly what WotC is doing for 5e, but ‘Remastered’ evokes a more positive reaction in my opinion. R5e or 5eR aren’t super complicated. What do you think about that?
Wait: nothing that was typed by PsyrenXY was a lie.
Not even an exaggeration.
D&D is growing, is strong, and is a key driver of Hasbro -- none of this is false, and all of it can be read or discerned from reports and publicly available data.
It is the dominant TTRPG and is the default against all others are measured and the most successful of all TTRPGs. Where other TTRPGs are struggling to raise 5 million in cash, D&D itself (without Mtg) made 750 million in 2021 alone, and is poised to break 1 billion either this fiscal year or next.
I remain in the camp of investors who want to see D&D spun off to be its own company (and Magic spun off as its own company as well, separate from D&D). I am still upset i gave my proxy over for that and they didn't succeed.
I get that some folks just want everyone else to be mad at Hasbro and WotC for their own reasons, but really, doing so is a waste of time, energy, and life -- and calling the truth about them a lie is neither wise nor honest.
Slow down buckaroo.
Hasbro in 2023 they made $5.4 Billion which is a decrease of 12% from 2022, (2022% was down by 8% from 2021 their last profitable year).
Of that profit WotC makes a revenue of about $1billion 90% of that is Magic the gathering, which has a massive overhead, but still counts as their most profitable division. D&D makes approximately $100 million a year in revenue (Overhead makes the profit margin very tiny, which is why they are pushing for more digital content, as physical books have little profit on them.)
Meanwhile, the next biggest company that competes directly with D&D is Paizo "Paizo's estimated annual revenue is currently $35.3M" - growjo.com
So yes, D&D is more profitable than other TTRPG makers, but it does not hold up Hasbro, in fact if someone had 100million dollars I bet they could buy D&D from Hasbro, as they clearly don't actually care about the health of the brand. Magic on the other hand is a massive revenue stream for Hasbro, and if they can cut it's costs they can make a ton off it.
Oh and in a juxtaposition, Games Workshop, which started out as the UK distributor of D&D but went into Wargaming in the 80s... GW made:
Games Workshop is pleased to confirm that trading since the last update in September 2023 is in line with expectations. The Board’s estimate of the results for the six months to 26 November 2023, at actual exchange rates, is core revenue of not less than £235 million (2022/23: £212.3 million) and licensing revenue of c. £12 million (2022/23: £14.3 million). Core operating profit is estimated at not less than £82 million (2022/23: £70.7 million) and licensing operating profit of c. £11 million (2022/23: £12.9 million). Profit before tax is estimated at not less than £94 million (2022/23: £83.6 million).
Under our profit share scheme, we are paying £2,500 in cash to each employee in December (2023/24: £7.5 million; 2022/23: £4.5 million) to reward their contribution to our performance. Dividends declared and paid in the period are 195p per share, £64.2 million (2022/23: 165p, £54.2 million).
Further details will be announced in the half yearly report which will be released on 9 January 2024.
Wait: nothing that was typed by PsyrenXY was a lie.
Not even an exaggeration.
D&D is growing, is strong, and is a key driver of Hasbro -- none of this is false, and all of it can be read or discerned from reports and publicly available data.
It is the dominant TTRPG and is the default against all others are measured and the most successful of all TTRPGs. Where other TTRPGs are struggling to raise 5 million in cash, D&D itself (without Mtg) made 750 million in 2021 alone, and is poised to break 1 billion either this fiscal year or next.
I remain in the camp of investors who want to see D&D spun off to be its own company (and Magic spun off as its own company as well, separate from D&D). I am still upset i gave my proxy over for that and they didn't succeed.
I get that some folks just want everyone else to be mad at Hasbro and WotC for their own reasons, but really, doing so is a waste of time, energy, and life -- and calling the truth about them a lie is neither wise nor honest.
Slow down buckaroo.
Hasbro in 2023 they made $5.4 Billion which is a decrease of 12% from 2022, (2022% was down by 8% from 2021 their last profitable year).
Of that profit WotC makes a revenue of about $1billion 90% of that is Magic the gathering, which has a massive overhead, but still counts as their most profitable division. D&D makes approximately $100 million a year in revenue (Overhead makes the profit margin very tiny, which is why they are pushing for more digital content, as physical books have little profit on them.)
Meanwhile, the next biggest company that competes directly with D&D is Paizo "Paizo's estimated annual revenue is currently $35.3M" - growjo.com
So yes, D&D is more profitable than other TTRPG makers, but it does not hold up Hasbro, in fact if someone had 100million dollars I bet they could buy D&D from Hasbro, as they clearly don't actually care about the health of the brand. Magic on the other hand is a massive revenue stream for Hasbro, and if they can cut it's costs they can make a ton off it.
Oh and in a juxtaposition, Games Workshop, which started out as the UK distributor of D&D but went into Wargaming in the 80s... GW made:
Games Workshop is pleased to confirm that trading since the last update in September 2023 is in line with expectations. The Board’s estimate of the results for the six months to 26 November 2023, at actual exchange rates, is core revenue of not less than £235 million (2022/23: £212.3 million) and licensing revenue of c. £12 million (2022/23: £14.3 million). Core operating profit is estimated at not less than £82 million (2022/23: £70.7 million) and licensing operating profit of c. £11 million (2022/23: £12.9 million). Profit before tax is estimated at not less than £94 million (2022/23: £83.6 million).
Under our profit share scheme, we are paying £2,500 in cash to each employee in December (2023/24: £7.5 million; 2022/23: £4.5 million) to reward their contribution to our performance. Dividends declared and paid in the period are 195p per share, £64.2 million (2022/23: 165p, £54.2 million).
Further details will be announced in the half yearly report which will be released on 9 January 2024.
- GW's Investor page
Funny, my investor reports have quite a different set of figures.
I still have some of my GW stuff -- and they were in wargaming from the start (I believe the owners stepped out of wargaming to form it). Love them. The rivalry between them and Iron Crown has always been a thing I liked to follow. I had hoped they would pick up the Harnmaster stuff way back when, but I suppose that fell apart.
That's good news about Paizo -- I am glad to hear it -- note that I also said "raise", which is a reference to information previously provided by someone else.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Well no matter what Hasbro wants to call it, the community will call it what they want to. Most of use are half way between 6.0 and 5.5, no one will call it D&D2024 as that is too wordy and not descriptive in a way that makes sense.
I completely agree with calling it 5.5e. I don't see the big deal with avoiding that term, and that's a criticism of WotC dancing around the issue too.
I've been calling it 5.5, I see Tasha's as 5.25, and if they do a massive idea addition in the future but keep it 5e I'll call that 5.75. ;)
BTW just for a sense, the differences of each type of D&D game ie from 1974 until now:
Chainmail Era - D6 game
Red Box - added multiple dice types, still played like the Chainmail game
1st Edition - better overall game design feels like D&D as we know it, but AC was based on the thAC0
AD&D - the differences of Tasha's vs base game
2nd Ed - included AD&D into the base Game (ie OneD&D)
2.5 ed - Most today don't remember this. Easy to read books, better design philosophy, part of why WotC purchased D&D.
3rd Edition - Complete redesign of the game thAC0 was gone, uniform XP table, standardized monster stats and uniform language.
D20 - 3rd party content supported by D&D, was separate and above the OGL
3.5 ed - Cleaned up rules, Easier to use, kind of like Tasha's, only more so.
4th ed - Table Top MMORPG seriously a fun game, best lore books and design, D&D Insider (Imagine DnDB but better, and 10 years ago. Still sad about that) Also included the biggest mistake in the OGL ever, 4th Ed had a Closed License, meaning no 3rd part content. It failed with sale in the hundreds of millions. Note Pathfinder at it's apex (this year) made $34million. 4th edition in the few short years failed with sales equal or better than the last few years at Wizards. Basically it failed due to bad PR, not because of bad book sales, they also failed to sell any License agreements which means no 3rd party books, and all those D20 books moved on to other rule sets and Paizo their biggest 3rd Party creator and maker of their official magazine made Pathfinder.
5th Edition - What we play. Opened back up to 3rd party content, allowing for live Streamed Games becoming popular, Kickstarter rule books becoming popular, and even a few of the games that moved on.
AEDorsay didn't say D&D was "holding up Hasbro" though - they called it a key driver, which it is. And if it's pulling in 100M a year, that means it is worth much more than that as a brand, the 100M is just an input to calculating the NPV.
Since Pathfinder was mentioned, I personally like their “Remastered” label for PF2e. It seems to be exactly what WotC is doing for 5e, but ‘Remastered’ evokes a more positive reaction in my opinion. R5e or 5eR aren’t super complicated. What do you think about that?
Wait: nothing that was typed by PsyrenXY was a lie.
Not even an exaggeration.
D&D is growing, is strong, and is a key driver of Hasbro -- none of this is false, and all of it can be read or discerned from reports and publicly available data.
It is the dominant TTRPG and is the default against all others are measured and the most successful of all TTRPGs. Where other TTRPGs are struggling to raise 5 million in cash, D&D itself (without Mtg) made 750 million in 2021 alone, and is poised to break 1 billion either this fiscal year or next.
I remain in the camp of investors who want to see D&D spun off to be its own company (and Magic spun off as its own company as well, separate from D&D). I am still upset i gave my proxy over for that and they didn't succeed.
I get that some folks just want everyone else to be mad at Hasbro and WotC for their own reasons, but really, doing so is a waste of time, energy, and life -- and calling the truth about them a lie is neither wise nor honest.
Slow down buckaroo.
Hasbro in 2023 they made $5.4 Billion which is a decrease of 12% from 2022, (2022% was down by 8% from 2021 their last profitable year).
Of that profit WotC makes a revenue of about $1billion 90% of that is Magic the gathering, which has a massive overhead, but still counts as their most profitable division. D&D makes approximately $100 million a year in revenue (Overhead makes the profit margin very tiny, which is why they are pushing for more digital content, as physical books have little profit on them.)
Meanwhile, the next biggest company that competes directly with D&D is Paizo "Paizo's estimated annual revenue is currently $35.3M" - growjo.com
So yes, D&D is more profitable than other TTRPG makers, but it does not hold up Hasbro, in fact if someone had 100million dollars I bet they could buy D&D from Hasbro, as they clearly don't actually care about the health of the brand. Magic on the other hand is a massive revenue stream for Hasbro, and if they can cut it's costs they can make a ton off it.
Oh and in a juxtaposition, Games Workshop, which started out as the UK distributor of D&D but went into Wargaming in the 80s... GW made:
Games Workshop is pleased to confirm that trading since the last update in September 2023 is in line with expectations. The Board’s estimate of the results for the six months to 26 November 2023, at actual exchange rates, is core revenue of not less than £235 million (2022/23: £212.3 million) and licensing revenue of c. £12 million (2022/23: £14.3 million). Core operating profit is estimated at not less than £82 million (2022/23: £70.7 million) and licensing operating profit of c. £11 million (2022/23: £12.9 million). Profit before tax is estimated at not less than £94 million (2022/23: £83.6 million).
Under our profit share scheme, we are paying £2,500 in cash to each employee in December (2023/24: £7.5 million; 2022/23: £4.5 million) to reward their contribution to our performance. Dividends declared and paid in the period are 195p per share, £64.2 million (2022/23: 165p, £54.2 million).
Further details will be announced in the half yearly report which will be released on 9 January 2024.
- GW's Investor page
Funny, my investor reports have quite a different set of figures.
I still have some of my GW stuff -- and they were in wargaming from the start (I believe the owners stepped out of wargaming to form it). Love them. The rivalry between them and Iron Crown has always been a thing I liked to follow. I had hoped they would pick up the Harnmaster stuff way back when, but I suppose that fell apart.
That's good news about Paizo -- I am glad to hear it -- note that I also said "raise", which is a reference to information previously provided by someone else.
Chainmail TSR's original game system was a War Game, D&D grew out of it. Games Workshop started off in 1975 selling board games and got the license from TSR to sell and make miniatures and rules for D&D. They also created rules for a Wargame to use with the D&D Minis they had made. Those rules ended up becoming Warhammer fantasy. White Dwarf originally was a D&D publication.
Since Pathfinder was mentioned, I personally like their “Remastered” label for PF2e. It seems to be exactly what WotC is doing for 5e, but ‘Remastered’ evokes a more positive reaction in my opinion. R5e or 5eR aren’t super complicated. What do you think about that?
I'd have been fine with 5e Remaster too!
I could get behind remaster. Or revised, because if there's one thing WotC hates its getting caught taking an idea from Paizo.
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I was never planning on leaving but I was scared to death D&D would die. But Caerwyn_Glyndwr and a few others calmed me down, and I really understood the reality when someone said they had 18 hobbies for 30 years or so and of all those hobbies only one crashed and burned, but all were allegedly constantly on the verge of imploding. Finally all my doubts were dispelled with the success of Baldur's Gate 3 and the DDB Maps VTT. Funnily enough I was planning on making a 1-year anniversary post about OGL myself!
DM for life by choice, biggest fan of D&D specifically.
Nah, the community balances out what wotc does. I submit my concerns to Hasbro, in hopes they keep wotc in check, and I create stuff and share it with the community, and hope others will too.
I've got all the tools to play dnd, so even if it does crash and burn because wotc doesnt know how to keep itself in check, ive got many "wayback machines" in place to keep going on without them.
Simply declaring "this is how it should be done" without explanation isn't very convincing. And if you're trying to sell the benefits of your favored system, simply directing people to do a bunch of research on their own time isn't the most effective approach either.
False and directly contradicted by the financial reports you are telling others to read. The financial reports are very, very, very clear that D&D is consistently rising in membership, and was trending up with strong numbers before BG3. BG3 poured gas on an already strong fire.
Goodness, let's try to keep the quoting to a minimum.
Actually, what they showed was focus on other areas, but making it very clear that D&D should not be lumped in with any of the aspect of the business that were contracting. Though they did not mention specific growth in D&D this quarter, that was because the limited space they dedicated to D&D was spent mentioning BG3.
That is pretty standard in financial reports of parent companies—the individual breakdown of the subsidiary’s sales is not that important, only the bottom line. The new developments you highlight, and the billion dollar brand you talk about, but maintaining growth from a smaller brand, you don’t really spend the very limited space on—you just make it clear it is not shrinking. That is exactly what they did here. This is particularly true in quarterly reports, which are more snapshots supposed to be read in the context of the other quarter’s reporting.
The reality? Every single report in recent history has consistently demonstrated that D&D is growing. In fact, it is growing at about the same percentage of Magic—14% of a brand worth hundreds of millions is just less notable than 13% growth in a brand worth over a billion.
Is alright. The game system seems to work well enough for the most part. There are some things I would change, but nothing major. I’m not a huge fan of the setting however, and much prefer Shadowrun myself personally. I love the blend of fantasy and sci-fi that setting presents, and I prefer the lore from Shadowrun what with the Amerindian influences and all. But I hear that Shadowrun’s mechanics are 💩 this edition, and everyone else is into Cyberpunk (because of the video game), so that’s what we’re playing primarily. 🤷♂️
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Hasbro backed down from the OGL. Hasbro gave a ton of material onto Creative Commons. That fight is over, and many of us came back. We were disappointed when Hasbro sent the Pinkertons to harass a content creator for MTG. and we feel like trust was lost permanently. But as the DM, I am required by my group to continue a sub on DnDB, as P2E is not the right system for them. (
Honestly frustrated that they couldn't live with that system, it's good, but sadly they want OP 5th edition characters, a system that I do not want to use any more as a DM
.)
So yes still here, looking at Hasbro being stupid and greedy and possibly wrecking WOTC to a point the company might fold sooner than later. At least plenty of 5th ed is on CC now, so the system can survive forever now, regardless if WotC fails because of Hasbro.
Wait: nothing that was typed by PsyrenXY was a lie.
Not even an exaggeration.
D&D is growing, is strong, and is a key driver of Hasbro -- none of this is false, and all of it can be read or discerned from reports and publicly available data.
It is the dominant TTRPG and is the default against all others are measured and the most successful of all TTRPGs. Where other TTRPGs are struggling to raise 5 million in cash, D&D itself (without Mtg) made 750 million in 2021 alone, and is poised to break 1 billion either this fiscal year or next.
I remain in the camp of investors who want to see D&D spun off to be its own company (and Magic spun off as its own company as well, separate from D&D). I am still upset i gave my proxy over for that and they didn't succeed.
I get that some folks just want everyone else to be mad at Hasbro and WotC for their own reasons, but really, doing so is a waste of time, energy, and life -- and calling the truth about them a lie is neither wise nor honest.
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You realize that when that survey dropped, most of the YouTube personalities leading the war on the OGL told their viewer not to vote on it. That sharp drop in replies shows how many people on here were following the YouTube content creators advice on the situation.
Now I wish we had a TTRPG cafe with warhammer RPG, I would love to get a Savage Worlds group together for Deadlands, or maybe Traveller <- my favorite setting
Well no matter what Hasbro wants to call it, the community will call it what they want to. Most of use are half way between 6.0 and 5.5, no one will call it D&D2024 as that is too wordy and not descriptive in a way that makes sense.
You mean the YouTube content creators who "switched" to Pathfinder, got absolutely wrecked by a combination of the algorithm and general disinterest in the broader TTRPG audience, and switched back?
I completely agree with calling it 5.5e. I don't see the big deal with avoiding that term, and that's a criticism of WotC dancing around the issue too.
Since Pathfinder was mentioned, I personally like their “Remastered” label for PF2e. It seems to be exactly what WotC is doing for 5e, but ‘Remastered’ evokes a more positive reaction in my opinion. R5e or 5eR aren’t super complicated. What do you think about that?
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Hasbro in 2023 they made $5.4 Billion which is a decrease of 12% from 2022, (2022% was down by 8% from 2021 their last profitable year).
Of that profit WotC makes a revenue of about $1billion 90% of that is Magic the gathering, which has a massive overhead, but still counts as their most profitable division. D&D makes approximately $100 million a year in revenue (Overhead makes the profit margin very tiny, which is why they are pushing for more digital content, as physical books have little profit on them.)
Meanwhile, the next biggest company that competes directly with D&D is Paizo "Paizo's estimated annual revenue is currently $35.3M" - growjo.com
So yes, D&D is more profitable than other TTRPG makers, but it does not hold up Hasbro, in fact if someone had 100million dollars I bet they could buy D&D from Hasbro, as they clearly don't actually care about the health of the brand. Magic on the other hand is a massive revenue stream for Hasbro, and if they can cut it's costs they can make a ton off it.
Oh and in a juxtaposition, Games Workshop, which started out as the UK distributor of D&D but went into Wargaming in the 80s... GW made:
Funny, my investor reports have quite a different set of figures.
I still have some of my GW stuff -- and they were in wargaming from the start (I believe the owners stepped out of wargaming to form it). Love them. The rivalry between them and Iron Crown has always been a thing I liked to follow. I had hoped they would pick up the Harnmaster stuff way back when, but I suppose that fell apart.
That's good news about Paizo -- I am glad to hear it -- note that I also said "raise", which is a reference to information previously provided by someone else.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I've been calling it 5.5, I see Tasha's as 5.25, and if they do a massive idea addition in the future but keep it 5e I'll call that 5.75. ;)
BTW just for a sense, the differences of each type of D&D game ie from 1974 until now:
Chainmail Era - D6 game
Red Box - added multiple dice types, still played like the Chainmail game
1st Edition - better overall game design feels like D&D as we know it, but AC was based on the thAC0
AD&D - the differences of Tasha's vs base game
2nd Ed - included AD&D into the base Game (ie OneD&D)
2.5 ed - Most today don't remember this. Easy to read books, better design philosophy, part of why WotC purchased D&D.
3rd Edition - Complete redesign of the game thAC0 was gone, uniform XP table, standardized monster stats and uniform language.
D20 - 3rd party content supported by D&D, was separate and above the OGL
3.5 ed - Cleaned up rules, Easier to use, kind of like Tasha's, only more so.
4th ed - Table Top MMORPG seriously a fun game, best lore books and design, D&D Insider (Imagine DnDB but better, and 10 years ago. Still sad about that) Also included the biggest mistake in the OGL ever, 4th Ed had a Closed License, meaning no 3rd part content. It failed with sale in the hundreds of millions. Note Pathfinder at it's apex (this year) made $34million. 4th edition in the few short years failed with sales equal or better than the last few years at Wizards. Basically it failed due to bad PR, not because of bad book sales, they also failed to sell any License agreements which means no 3rd party books, and all those D20 books moved on to other rule sets and Paizo their biggest 3rd Party creator and maker of their official magazine made Pathfinder.
5th Edition - What we play. Opened back up to 3rd party content, allowing for live Streamed Games becoming popular, Kickstarter rule books becoming popular, and even a few of the games that moved on.
1 DND/"D&D 2024 edition" - aka 5.5 - we will see.
AEDorsay didn't say D&D was "holding up Hasbro" though - they called it a key driver, which it is. And if it's pulling in 100M a year, that means it is worth much more than that as a brand, the 100M is just an input to calculating the NPV.
I'd have been fine with 5e Remaster too!
Chainmail TSR's original game system was a War Game, D&D grew out of it. Games Workshop started off in 1975 selling board games and got the license from TSR to sell and make miniatures and rules for D&D. They also created rules for a Wargame to use with the D&D Minis they had made. Those rules ended up becoming Warhammer fantasy. White Dwarf originally was a D&D publication.
I could get behind remaster. Or revised, because if there's one thing WotC hates its getting caught taking an idea from Paizo.