The whole point of D&D is to provide mechanics that work to capturing the imagination. I could very easily create a game and just say "you get to add your level to any rolls you make to which I think "thiefy" applies. Job done. The reason why we each pay hundreds to WotC is so that they come up with mechanics that help develop the narrative associated with the archetype (that are also balanced and interesting).
You can take any subclass and play it as any sub-archetype. The question is whether those mechanics evoke that sub-archetype while providing power (and are hence balanced). You can play an Illusionist while technically being an Evoker, but the Evoker sucks at providing that narrative immersion via mechanics. Hence, the Thief needs to feel "thiefy" by providing "thiefy" mechanics, provide power (i.e. be good at being a thief) and do so better than other Subclasses.
I'd also say that any class that advertises a well known archetype of fantasy and delivers on it poorly qualifies as a newbie trap. And if your first experience playing the game is a newbie trap, you might get turned off from playing again.
I see good subclasses do one of three things. They provide either something entirely new to the character class, make them better at one aspect of what they already do, or plug a hole that exists in the base class. Each of these things is good based on the campaign and/or party makeup. This also makes one core assumption, which is that the subclass actually does what it sets out to do.
A poor subclass either tries and fails at one the the 3 Good Things, or encourages a playstyle that runs counter to how the class works, or brings the weaknesses of the class to the forefront. A good example of the latter is the Storm Sorcerer - putting a low HP, low AC class close to the front via short ranged abilities looks like whoever designed the subclass forgot what class it was being applied to in the first place.
6thLyranGuard, you make a good point. Bladesingers and Hexblades do have different abilities, because of the"Gish" subclasses, Eldritch Knight is basically "what if a fighter could cast spells?", Bladesinger is essentially "What if a wizard wouldn't die the second they go closer than 30 feet?", and Hexblade is basically "what if you had a pact of the blade warlock that was even better at fighting with weapons and didn't die so quick?". In my opinion, Hexblade is a bit better because it can more easily be a good face, and gains more weapon and armor proficiencies, though Bladesingers are better for spell casting.
The biggest problem is effective 'ammo limits:' You only get a couple shots per long rest. To be fair, not checked out any 2024 version yet.
Well, there isn't a 2024 arcane archer, but I'm not sure how many arcane archer concepts aren't better served by one of battle master, eldritch knight, or some flavor of ranger.
Arcane Archer is actually pretty good, I think. It's got good health and has some pretty overpowered abilities.
The biggest problem is effective 'ammo limits:' You only get a couple shots per long rest. To be fair, not checked out any 2024 version yet.
While I wouldn't put Arcane Archer at the bottom, it is in the lower half due to the limits on Arcane Shot. I have a rule, if the base class is good, then it's not the worst choice, if the base class is good, and there is a better way to do it, then it's below average, Arcane Archer is below average. As any Fighter can take a bow. If you want this play style Eldritch Knight (2024) with a bow makes a better Ranger than the 2024 Ranger.
Arcane Archer is actually pretty good, I think. It's got good health and has some pretty overpowered abilities.
The biggest problem is effective 'ammo limits:' You only get a couple shots per long rest. To be fair, not checked out any 2024 version yet.
I've seen a few times that this is per long rest now, am I getting confused? The Arcane Shot can be used twice per short or long rest according to DDB?
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Arcane Archer is actually pretty good, I think. It's got good health and has some pretty overpowered abilities.
The biggest problem is effective 'ammo limits:' You only get a couple shots per long rest. To be fair, not checked out any 2024 version yet.
I've seen a few times that this is per long rest now, am I getting confused? The Arcane Shot can be used twice per short or long rest according to DDB?
It is two per short rest, according to the version of Xanathar's Guide to Everything currently present on D&D Beyond.
However, the point still stands, as that's still not enough to make it particularly useful, especially when compared to Battle Master maneuvers (which you get twice as many of).
Arcane Archer is actually pretty good, I think. It's got good health and has some pretty overpowered abilities.
The biggest problem is effective 'ammo limits:' You only get a couple shots per long rest. To be fair, not checked out any 2024 version yet.
I've seen a few times that this is per long rest now, am I getting confused? The Arcane Shot can be used twice per short or long rest according to DDB?
Arcane Shot -Xanathar's Guide to Everything
At 3rd level, you learn to unleash special magical effects with some of your shots. When you gain this feature, you learn two Arcane Shot options of your choice (see “Arcane Shot Options” below).
Once per turn when you fire an arrow from a shortbow or longbow as part of the Attack action, you can apply one of your Arcane Shot options to that arrow. You decide to use the option when the arrow hits a creature, unless the option doesn’t involve an attack roll. You have two uses of this ability, and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a short or long rest.
You gain an additional Arcane Shot option of your choice when you reach certain levels in this class: 7th, 10th, 15th, and 18th level. Each option also improves when you become an 18th-level fighter.
correct RAW short or long. ((misread something it was early morning and pre-coffee, extra options but it remains at two. That's just useless. I would at least homebrew them to have at least as many uses as a Warlock's pact magic.))
This is incorrect. You only ever have 2 uses, you only get more options on what to do with those two uses.
Ooooof! Never played one but with that understanding, I don't think I ever will. Would you say that the options are powerful enough to justify such... let's call it 'hostile limitations'?
This is incorrect. You only ever have 2 uses, you only get more options on what to do with those two uses.
Ooooof! Never played one but with that understanding, I don't think I ever will. Would you say that the options are powerful enough to justify such... let's call it 'hostile limitations'?
This is incorrect. You only ever have 2 uses, you only get more options on what to do with those two uses.
Ooooof! Never played one but with that understanding, I don't think I ever will. Would you say that the options are powerful enough to justify such... let's call it 'hostile limitations'?
Not remotely.
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This is incorrect. You only ever have 2 uses, you only get more options on what to do with those two uses.
Ooooof! Never played one but with that understanding, I don't think I ever will. Would you say that the options are powerful enough to justify such... let's call it 'hostile limitations'?
Looking at them, they're reasonably good for T1. In a fight of 3 rounds, that's 2 of your 3 shots augmented and the effects aren't bad. It's a nice boon. However, after that, it goes downhill due to Extra Attack (and cantrip equivalents. All of a sudden, it's only 2 of 6 attacks. Where the tipping point is is more subjective, but like, at L13, Bursting Arrow does 2d6 in a 10ft radius. On the other hand, Eldritch Knight can instead do Fireball just as often in a fight for 8d6 in a 20ft radius. Sure, the Arcane Archer can do their normal attacks on top and can get it back on a short rest...but still. Quadruple the damage over quadruple the area. We usually have short rests like once a day...so yeah. Plus the EK still has seven spell slots left to play with, while the AA just has becomes a normal archer.
I really want to like the AA, it's the kind of martial I'd play in concept, but it just doesn't really hold up. You're almost better off being an EK archer than an AA.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
The only time I remember the Arcane Archer being considered good was in 3.0, when the enchantment on a bow stacked with the enchantment on an arrow fired from the bow, and Arcane Archers turned all arrows they fired into magic arrows of half their level (so a 2nd level Arcane Archer made all arrows they fired +1 arrows, while a 10th level Arcane Archer made them all +5). Which meant that you could eventually be firing something like six shots per round for 1d8+12 damage and have an insanely high attack bonus to insure that you hit with all of them. When 3.5 Edition changed it so that you only used the higher of the two bonuses between bow and arrow, the AA lost a significant amount of its power. The 5E version's powers are all balanced around Tier 1 and simply don't increase enough to matter.
The only exception to this that I can see is Grasping Arrow, which causes 2d6 points of damage to the target the first time it moves each turn, so if your party had a bunch of forced movement effects it could really stack up the damage. But even that isn't amazing.
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
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I'd also say that any class that advertises a well known archetype of fantasy and delivers on it poorly qualifies as a newbie trap. And if your first experience playing the game is a newbie trap, you might get turned off from playing again.
I see good subclasses do one of three things. They provide either something entirely new to the character class, make them better at one aspect of what they already do, or plug a hole that exists in the base class. Each of these things is good based on the campaign and/or party makeup. This also makes one core assumption, which is that the subclass actually does what it sets out to do.
A poor subclass either tries and fails at one the the 3 Good Things, or encourages a playstyle that runs counter to how the class works, or brings the weaknesses of the class to the forefront. A good example of the latter is the Storm Sorcerer - putting a low HP, low AC class close to the front via short ranged abilities looks like whoever designed the subclass forgot what class it was being applied to in the first place.
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6thLyranGuard, you make a good point. Bladesingers and Hexblades do have different abilities, because of the"Gish" subclasses, Eldritch Knight is basically "what if a fighter could cast spells?", Bladesinger is essentially "What if a wizard wouldn't die the second they go closer than 30 feet?", and Hexblade is basically "what if you had a pact of the blade warlock that was even better at fighting with weapons and didn't die so quick?". In my opinion, Hexblade is a bit better because it can more easily be a good face, and gains more weapon and armor proficiencies, though Bladesingers are better for spell casting.
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Arcane Archer is down there, too.
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Arcane Archer is actually pretty good, I think. It's got good health and has some pretty overpowered abilities.
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The biggest problem is effective 'ammo limits:' You only get a couple shots per long rest. To be fair, not checked out any 2024 version yet.
Well, there isn't a 2024 arcane archer, but I'm not sure how many arcane archer concepts aren't better served by one of battle master, eldritch knight, or some flavor of ranger.
While I wouldn't put Arcane Archer at the bottom, it is in the lower half due to the limits on Arcane Shot. I have a rule, if the base class is good, then it's not the worst choice, if the base class is good, and there is a better way to do it, then it's below average, Arcane Archer is below average. As any Fighter can take a bow. If you want this play style Eldritch Knight (2024) with a bow makes a better Ranger than the 2024 Ranger.
I've seen a few times that this is per long rest now, am I getting confused? The Arcane Shot can be used twice per short or long rest according to DDB?
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
It is two per short rest, according to the version of Xanathar's Guide to Everything currently present on D&D Beyond.
However, the point still stands, as that's still not enough to make it particularly useful, especially when compared to Battle Master maneuvers (which you get twice as many of).
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correct RAW short or long. ((misread something it was early morning and pre-coffee, extra options but it remains at two. That's just useless. I would at least homebrew them to have at least as many uses as a Warlock's pact magic.))
Or... 2024 Eldritch Knight with a bow. see for idea: https://www.dndbeyond.com/characters/134504002
This is incorrect. You only ever have 2 uses, you only get more options on what to do with those two uses.
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Ooooof! Never played one but with that understanding, I don't think I ever will. Would you say that the options are powerful enough to justify such... let's call it 'hostile limitations'?
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You're misreading. You get additional options at levels 7, 10, 15, and 18, but you don't get additional uses -- you still get the same 2 uses.
IMHO not really
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Not remotely.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Looking at them, they're reasonably good for T1. In a fight of 3 rounds, that's 2 of your 3 shots augmented and the effects aren't bad. It's a nice boon. However, after that, it goes downhill due to Extra Attack (and cantrip equivalents. All of a sudden, it's only 2 of 6 attacks. Where the tipping point is is more subjective, but like, at L13, Bursting Arrow does 2d6 in a 10ft radius. On the other hand, Eldritch Knight can instead do Fireball just as often in a fight for 8d6 in a 20ft radius. Sure, the Arcane Archer can do their normal attacks on top and can get it back on a short rest...but still. Quadruple the damage over quadruple the area. We usually have short rests like once a day...so yeah. Plus the EK still has seven spell slots left to play with, while the AA just has becomes a normal archer.
I really want to like the AA, it's the kind of martial I'd play in concept, but it just doesn't really hold up. You're almost better off being an EK archer than an AA.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
The only time I remember the Arcane Archer being considered good was in 3.0, when the enchantment on a bow stacked with the enchantment on an arrow fired from the bow, and Arcane Archers turned all arrows they fired into magic arrows of half their level (so a 2nd level Arcane Archer made all arrows they fired +1 arrows, while a 10th level Arcane Archer made them all +5). Which meant that you could eventually be firing something like six shots per round for 1d8+12 damage and have an insanely high attack bonus to insure that you hit with all of them. When 3.5 Edition changed it so that you only used the higher of the two bonuses between bow and arrow, the AA lost a significant amount of its power. The 5E version's powers are all balanced around Tier 1 and simply don't increase enough to matter.
The only exception to this that I can see is Grasping Arrow, which causes 2d6 points of damage to the target the first time it moves each turn, so if your party had a bunch of forced movement effects it could really stack up the damage. But even that isn't amazing.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.