I agree with you that roleplay prompts are a good thing - and my copy of Dragonlance is full of them. Information on the gods, the factions, the core races, the history of the world, it's all there. And yes, they should definitely publish an update to Forgotten Realms, preferably one that includes all the new canon introduced in BG3.
And the thing about your copy of Dragonlance is that's an extra $30+ bucks new to get at the material, which again is going to be a bit off-putting for a group that's just starting to dip a toe in the waters. A few paragraphs of simple lore in the PHB is unlikely to displace any other content you would find particularly crucial, especially with all the background tables being pulled, and make it much more accessible for people who want to pick up the core 3 and try out the game. There's a reason it's called role-playing, and the core books should provide a simple but solid foundation for that, not just tell them to figure it out for themselves or buy more products.
And the thing about your copy of Dragonlance is that's an extra $30+ bucks new to get at the material, which again is going to be a bit off-putting for a group that's just starting to dip a toe in the waters.
If you want to dip your toes in the water... adventure books include the amount of background you need to run the adventure. If you want to get a new player interested in a PC species, the main things you need are (a) a description of the cool things you can do, and (b) a cool picture.
And the thing about your copy of Dragonlance is that's an extra $30+ bucks new to get at the material, which again is going to be a bit off-putting for a group that's just starting to dip a toe in the waters.
If you want to dip your toes in the water... adventure books include the amount of background you need to run the adventure. If you want to get a new player interested in a PC species, the main things you need are (a) a description of the cool things you can do, and (b) a cool picture.
Except you still need to buy the core books on top of that, which is my point. The core books should provide enough material to build a character from scratch and give you some direction on playing into your major character creation points without needing an additional $40 purchase.
Except you still need to buy the core books on top of that, which is my point. The core books should provide enough material to build a character from scratch and give you some direction on playing into your major character creation points without needing an additional $40 purchase.
They do. People do not need that fluff. In fact, the vast majority of the time it's completely irrelevant because the PCs aren't from some ancestral lands from which the species originated, they're from the local culture and they'll be like people from that culture.
And the thing about your copy of Dragonlance is that's an extra $30+ bucks new to get at the material, which again is going to be a bit off-putting for a group that's just starting to dip a toe in the waters.
If you want to dip your toes in the water... adventure books include the amount of background you need to run the adventure. If you want to get a new player interested in a PC species, the main things you need are (a) a description of the cool things you can do, and (b) a cool picture.
Except you still need to buy the core books on top of that, which is my point. The core books should provide enough material to build a character from scratch and give you some direction on playing into your major character creation points without needing an additional $40 purchase.
i feel like dipping one's toes comes before purchase of core books. anyone dropping a hundred dollars on a new hobby before "dipping their toes in" had better hope they remembered to take their cellphone out of their pocket before the metaphor gets rowdy.
the PHB gives you race and class, then session zero gives you a chance to ask questions that help you integrate (or make a change). that's plenty to start with, isn't it? the dragonlance book isn't an additional cost to everyone any more than is spelljammer, ravinca, or the tortle package. it's optional on a sliding scale of relevancy that can dip into negative territory. would it be nice to have a campaign-adjacent setting book so your character knows all the best most appropriate ways to swear? yes. do you need to know what size gap a plasmoid can squeeze though before you accost your first caravan guard, goblin, or giant rat? by Tymora's itchy nose, no you do not.
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
And the thing about your copy of Dragonlance is that's an extra $30+ bucks new to get at the material, which again is going to be a bit off-putting for a group that's just starting to dip a toe in the waters. A few paragraphs of simple lore in the PHB is unlikely to displace any other content you would find particularly crucial, especially with all the background tables being pulled, and make it much more accessible for people who want to pick up the core 3 and try out the game. There's a reason it's called role-playing, and the core books should provide a simple but solid foundation for that, not just tell them to figure it out for themselves or buy more products.
Are you suggesting they should include lore on every setting in the PHB? I'm sorry, but that's ludicrous; they own like a dozen of the things not even counting the plethora of MTG settings. Some Forgotten Realms information I can understand, maybe with a nod towards how Eberron is drastically different, and it sounds like Planescape might even end up being their "backstage of the Multiverse" going forward - but they shouldn't branch out from there to covering Krynn and Greyhawk and Ravenloft and Athas and Mystara and Blackmoor and Al'Qadim and Rokugan and Spelljammer etc etc all in the PHB. Expecting players to buy a setting book or module to get information on those settings is reasonable, and the ones who don't want to do that can simply hit up the nearest wiki for free as a starting point.
I'm too lazy to read the whole thread so I'll say this as my 2cp worth......For whatever it is worth, It could be worse, it could be the Games Workshop model of revamping editions and rules with increasing regularity, for context; Warhammer 40k: Rogue Trader/1st edition was release in 1987, Warhammer 40k 2nd edition was released 1993, 3rd edition was 1998, 4th edition was 2004, 5th edition 2008, 6th edition 2012, 7th edition 2014, 8th edition 2017, 9th edition 2020 and finally 10th edition just last year 2023.
Except you still need to buy the core books on top of that, which is my point. The core books should provide enough material to build a character from scratch and give you some direction on playing into your major character creation points without needing an additional $40 purchase.
They do. People do not need that fluff. In fact, the vast majority of the time it's completely irrelevant because the PCs aren't from some ancestral lands from which the species originated, they're from the local culture and they'll be like people from that culture.
Building off the above, let's, for fun, look at what "fluff" players get during character creation under the 2024 model.
MMM provides players a couple paragraphs description for each species, including where they came from, some of their core personality traits, and a bit about their abilities. The types of ability the species have, as well as the flavor of their names, also provides information about what the species is like. In Unearthed Arcana 1, which had species options, we got even more information (about a paragraph more content per species) than was provided for the species in MMM, so it looks like Wizards has decided they will be expanding on MMM's model with the core books. MMM is sufficient on its own to allow a player to figure out what a species' schtick is; the new Core Books seem like they will be sufficient as well.
We have not seen any 2024 classes (in the way MMM provided 2024 monsters and species), so we have to look at the UA to see what information someone is getting about their chosen class. Again, here we have several paragraphs of information about what makes up the class--where their power is drawn from, some suggestions on how the powers manifest, some suggestions of what types of character might fit with that class.
I really, really do not see a problem with there not being enough information to make up a character. With years of teaching new players under my belt, I can say most of them do not read more than the introductory paragraphs anyway, and many do not look beyond the art for species selection or the (generally self-explanatory) names of classes. Frankly, less is sometimes more--I think we all know that new players often are turned off by those big walls of text, and a bite sized chunk of the basics might be more palatable to them.
Frankly, a lot of the issues folks have here could be accomplished through D&D Beyond’s articles… if the articles were in any way organized and useful to read.
Consider earlier editions of D&D - a lot of the best lore did not come from the adventures or sourcebooks, but from Dragon or Dungeon magazine. These supplements were often lore-heavy, mechanically light, providing plenty of information without taking up space in an actual book.
Beyond could fill that role very easily—it already is increasingly running “here is how to run aspects of the game” articles; lore dumps would not be that much harder—especially since a lot of it already has been written and could just be repackaged into a modern article form.
But, for that to be helpful as a tool, Beyond would need to get a whole lot better in its search tools and organization. The site is a bit of a mess, vastly outclassed in a lot of regards by the 4e digital tools.
writing a whole magazine must be tough, but i feel like shutting down had just as much to do corporation stuff: wanting either more control over frequent content or else saving up the best ideas for the hardback books. or both. so they've ceded that space to 3rd party vendors rather than compete with them. but for many of us that just devalues the ocean of 'unofficial' lore on offer. there's so much to sift through and no guarantee of quality or continued relevancy. DBB could meliorate some of this by offering articles that recommend "additional reading material" like novels and certain highlighted dmsguild supplements. of course we'd be skeptical about whether this was secretly paid-for advertising... so they could just be up-front about it.
additionally, they might offer subscribed members more frequent deep-dive lore content and bring back encounters of the week. it wouldn't hurt to have a reason to land on the front page occasionally instead of... let's see... four blurbs selling humblewood, two blurbs selling vecna pre-order, something about that MAPS thing i don't pay enough to use yet, a "turning 50" blurb about upcoming book sales, and a reminder that there's a dnd video game you can buy. somebody get ed greenwood over here to talk about how the Second Sundering affected church attendance in Cormyr or how the Spellplague changed caravan insurance coverage in Yartar! most players might never go to those places but the fleshing out of the world gives it life and gives me ideas that carry over into my campaign. also, it doesn't require hiring programmers like creating new (or fixing existing) digital tools would. there's lots of room for d&d to grow.
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
And the thing about your copy of Dragonlance is that's an extra $30+ bucks new to get at the material, which again is going to be a bit off-putting for a group that's just starting to dip a toe in the waters.
If you want to dip your toes in the water... adventure books include the amount of background you need to run the adventure. If you want to get a new player interested in a PC species, the main things you need are (a) a description of the cool things you can do, and (b) a cool picture.
Except you still need to buy the core books on top of that, which is my point. The core books should provide enough material to build a character from scratch and give you some direction on playing into your major character creation points without needing an additional $40 purchase.
Isn’t that kind of thing available for free in the basic rules? Or is it not? I realize I’ve never actually read them over.
And the thing about your copy of Dragonlance is that's an extra $30+ bucks new to get at the material, which again is going to be a bit off-putting for a group that's just starting to dip a toe in the waters.
If you want to dip your toes in the water... adventure books include the amount of background you need to run the adventure. If you want to get a new player interested in a PC species, the main things you need are (a) a description of the cool things you can do, and (b) a cool picture.
Except you still need to buy the core books on top of that, which is my point. The core books should provide enough material to build a character from scratch and give you some direction on playing into your major character creation points without needing an additional $40 purchase.
Isn’t that kind of thing available for free in the basic rules? Or is it not? I realize I’ve never actually read them over.
At the moment, yes, that portion of the PHB is also in the Basic Rules, and should remain in both sources imo. These are not two separately designed documents; the entries in the Basic Rules are lifted straight from the PHB, and I expect the current set to be replaced alongside the current PHB in September. Ergo it seems logical to conclude that if material is going to remain in the BR, it needs to be in the PHB as well.
I'm too lazy to read the whole thread so I'll say this as my 2cp worth......For whatever it is worth, It could be worse, it could be the Games Workshop model of revamping editions and rules with increasing regularity, for context; Warhammer 40k: Rogue Trader/1st edition was release in 1987, Warhammer 40k 2nd edition was released 1993, 3rd edition was 1998, 4th edition was 2004, 5th edition 2008, 6th edition 2012, 7th edition 2014, 8th edition 2017, 9th edition 2020 and finally 10th edition just last year 2023.
Yeah, but to be fair the supplements and army books from one edition are forwards compatible and the main rules are backwards compatible for the most part. So, like, for example the Eldar codex was still relevant and useable through several editions of the game. That’s the equivalent of all the Warlock subclasses we currently have available being useable across 3 editions of the game.
Hell I would be curious as to how hard a basic DMG and MM would be to develop?
They wouldn’t hand over all that is in the full text of such documents, but enough to spark the fire that might just push one to consider the cost of going for the full package.
The basic rules are but a sample of the whole, and IMHO wonder at how it probably entices people to seek out the whole.
Wizbro has means to rectify the situation they have. It just feels or looks like other factors are distracting from what, to a segment of the community's perception, poor choices of decisions that were made that could have been better handled in the public eye.
We have no idea what the new update will bring, how it will impact the community and game as a whole, and what the response will be.
Building off the above, let's, for fun, look at what "fluff" players get during character creation under the 2024 model.
For comparison, here's what the 1e PHB had to say about the culture of dwarves
The race of dwarves typically dwells in hilly or mountainous regions.
That's it. If you want more detail, check the monster manual -- which didn't actually have meaningfully more about the culture, but did give things like physical description.
Hell I would be curious as to how hard a basic DMG and MM would be to develop?
Zero effort, since it's already done. Chapter 12 of the basic rules is a selected set of creatures from the monster manual, chapters 13-15 are from the DMG.
Except you still need to buy the core books on top of that, which is my point. The core books should provide enough material to build a character from scratch and give you some direction on playing into your major character creation points without needing an additional $40 purchase.
They do. People do not need that fluff. In fact, the vast majority of the time it's completely irrelevant because the PCs aren't from some ancestral lands from which the species originated, they're from the local culture and they'll be like people from that culture.
Building off the above, let's, for fun, look at what "fluff" players get during character creation under the 2024 model.
MMM provides players a couple paragraphs description for each species, including where they came from, some of their core personality traits, and a bit about their abilities. The types of ability the species have, as well as the flavor of their names, also provides information about what the species is like. In Unearthed Arcana 1, which had species options, we got even more information (about a paragraph more content per species) than was provided for the species in MMM, so it looks like Wizards has decided they will be expanding on MMM's model with the core books. MMM is sufficient on its own to allow a player to figure out what a species' schtick is; the new Core Books seem like they will be sufficient as well.
We have not seen any 2024 classes (in the way MMM provided 2024 monsters and species), so we have to look at the UA to see what information someone is getting about their chosen class. Again, here we have several paragraphs of information about what makes up the class--where their power is drawn from, some suggestions on how the powers manifest, some suggestions of what types of character might fit with that class.
I really, really do not see a problem with there not being enough information to make up a character. With years of teaching new players under my belt, I can say most of them do not read more than the introductory paragraphs anyway, and many do not look beyond the art for species selection or the (generally self-explanatory) names of classes. Frankly, less is sometimes more--I think we all know that new players often are turned off by those big walls of text, and a bite sized chunk of the basics might be more palatable to them.
As I’ve repeatedly said, I’m not pushing for “walls of text” like in MToF or VGtM for the races in the PHB. Would prefer a little more body than MotM, but something between that and the entries in the current PHB should provide some good inspiration for the people who want it without using up too many all-important pages that could otherwise go towards… what exactly are people saying we need to preserve page count for?
Book space isn't free, especially the space in the setting-agnostic books. Spending that space on lore that isn't actually setting-agnostic, nor even region-agnostic within a specific setting, is counterproductive.
I think "setting agnostic" is a big part of the problem with things post Tasha's. It is what is driving a lot of the issues as of late. Trying to make everything work everywhere anytime is a problem and it is taking more from the game than it is helping. It is a lot easier to make exceptions to place thing in the "wrong" setting on occasion than it is to make everything work anywhere.
I see the "setting agnostic" trend leading to another "sundering" soon as it is painting the game into a corner that will only leave that level of retconning as a way out.
I am not saying the new books are of no value (I just bought a physical copy of Dragonlance which I will never use beyond inspiration, but I bought it for $15 shipped new) they do, but not as much value as they could have if the books were better all around lore or no lore.
Just look at the books from previous editions that still sell for a premium and are in "reprint" on the DMsGuild. how many 5e books do you think will be top sellers in the next 50 years?
I get not all of the previous edition books sell like that, but which 5e books do you think will have that staying power? To me it will be the core rules XGtE, Volo's and LMoP, CoS, and Tyranny. A few of those were not all WotC.
I have no fear of D&D dying, I am getting ready for it to hibernate for a while by buying physical books at a huge discount from MSRP as WotC is creating that market. I really should be buying 2 copies so I can sell the extra copies at a tidy profit in a few years.
I really hope the VTT is profitable enough to allow the course correction I feel needs to be made to keep the game mainstream, even though I have no interest in the VVT personally.
TSR couldn't kill D&D, WizBro won't either.
They don't have to work everywhere, every time though. The decision as to what works where and how is left to DM's, which is where it should be anyway. I will concede that they could perhaps promote this idea better, but frankly most new races, etc, are usually promoted more towards players rather than towards DM's.
WotC: "Here are some new, mechanically interesting races. How do they fit in with your world? It is your world. You decide!"
The whole "But the rules!" stance is fine coming from DM's but when it comes from players, with players telling a DM "The rules say my race is like this" and arguing against any different take the DM has on it is actually stifling to DM creativity. It is something that should be limited to tournament settings.
This is a circular argument that works both ways, and to me that is no reason to go down the make everything setting agnostic path. It strips the lore and that removes valuable content that is far easier left out of the game if it is not wanted, than it is to put it back in the game if you do want it.
Players and DM's that want some basic lore in their game shouldn't have to buy video games and books from other editions to get it, when those that don't want it can easily leave it in the book and out of their game.
Lore or no lore the player vs DM arguments and discussions will, as they always have, continue to be a part of D&D. Taking the lore out just unnecessarily hamstrings the DM that wants it in the game, it doesn't mean the player will get what they want if they play at that table.
My main point is : the books will sell either way, they would be better books with some lore left in most of them.
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CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
Except you still need to buy the core books on top of that, which is my point. The core books should provide enough material to build a character from scratch and give you some direction on playing into your major character creation points without needing an additional $40 purchase.
They do. People do not need that fluff. In fact, the vast majority of the time it's completely irrelevant because the PCs aren't from some ancestral lands from which the species originated, they're from the local culture and they'll be like people from that culture.
Building off the above, let's, for fun, look at what "fluff" players get during character creation under the 2024 model.
MMM provides players a couple paragraphs description for each species, including where they came from, some of their core personality traits, and a bit about their abilities. The types of ability the species have, as well as the flavor of their names, also provides information about what the species is like. In Unearthed Arcana 1, which had species options, we got even more information (about a paragraph more content per species) than was provided for the species in MMM, so it looks like Wizards has decided they will be expanding on MMM's model with the core books. MMM is sufficient on its own to allow a player to figure out what a species' schtick is; the new Core Books seem like they will be sufficient as well.
We have not seen any 2024 classes (in the way MMM provided 2024 monsters and species), so we have to look at the UA to see what information someone is getting about their chosen class. Again, here we have several paragraphs of information about what makes up the class--where their power is drawn from, some suggestions on how the powers manifest, some suggestions of what types of character might fit with that class.
I really, really do not see a problem with there not being enough information to make up a character. With years of teaching new players under my belt, I can say most of them do not read more than the introductory paragraphs anyway, and many do not look beyond the art for species selection or the (generally self-explanatory) names of classes. Frankly, less is sometimes more--I think we all know that new players often are turned off by those big walls of text, and a bite sized chunk of the basics might be more palatable to them.
As I’ve repeatedly said, I’m not pushing for “walls of text” like in MToF or VGtM for the races in the PHB. Would prefer a little more body than MotM, but something between that and the entries in the current PHB should provide some good inspiration for the people who want it without using up too many all-important pages that could otherwise go towards… what exactly are people saying we need to preserve page count for?
If you have followed the development of the 2024 release, you would know the answer to that--more subclasses than the original PHB held and art (which is probably more important to the majority of players for getting the feel of things than text alone--picture is worth a thousand words and all that). Likely also fleshing out some of the other aspects of the PHB as well, since I think there has been some discussion about clearing up some of the more ambiguous aspects of the 2014 rules.
And, again, maybe you want more body about your species. If that is the case, here you go. But, the reality? MMM and the UA content already contain about the same level of useful information as the 2014 PHB does--there is not really any "in between". Sure, the 2014 PHB also contains setting specific lore for those species in Forgotten Realms (but only another couple of paragraphs)--but that information remains redundant with other sources, irrelevant to the largest setting (homebrew), only semi-relevant to the second largest setting (homebrew based on an official campaign setting.
Fortunately, as I stated in my first post on this thread, Wizards understands their players and what their players actually need. They are not going to give us filler when they can give us content--and when the people (like you) who apparently need the filler can easily get it elsewhere.
Except you still need to buy the core books on top of that, which is my point. The core books should provide enough material to build a character from scratch and give you some direction on playing into your major character creation points without needing an additional $40 purchase.
They do. People do not need that fluff. In fact, the vast majority of the time it's completely irrelevant because the PCs aren't from some ancestral lands from which the species originated, they're from the local culture and they'll be like people from that culture.
Building off the above, let's, for fun, look at what "fluff" players get during character creation under the 2024 model.
MMM provides players a couple paragraphs description for each species, including where they came from, some of their core personality traits, and a bit about their abilities. The types of ability the species have, as well as the flavor of their names, also provides information about what the species is like. In Unearthed Arcana 1, which had species options, we got even more information (about a paragraph more content per species) than was provided for the species in MMM, so it looks like Wizards has decided they will be expanding on MMM's model with the core books. MMM is sufficient on its own to allow a player to figure out what a species' schtick is; the new Core Books seem like they will be sufficient as well.
We have not seen any 2024 classes (in the way MMM provided 2024 monsters and species), so we have to look at the UA to see what information someone is getting about their chosen class. Again, here we have several paragraphs of information about what makes up the class--where their power is drawn from, some suggestions on how the powers manifest, some suggestions of what types of character might fit with that class.
I really, really do not see a problem with there not being enough information to make up a character. With years of teaching new players under my belt, I can say most of them do not read more than the introductory paragraphs anyway, and many do not look beyond the art for species selection or the (generally self-explanatory) names of classes. Frankly, less is sometimes more--I think we all know that new players often are turned off by those big walls of text, and a bite sized chunk of the basics might be more palatable to them.
As I’ve repeatedly said, I’m not pushing for “walls of text” like in MToF or VGtM for the races in the PHB. Would prefer a little more body than MotM, but something between that and the entries in the current PHB should provide some good inspiration for the people who want it without using up too many all-important pages that could otherwise go towards… what exactly are people saying we need to preserve page count for?
If you have followed the development of the 2024 release, you would know the answer to that--more subclasses than the original PHB held and art (which is probably more important to the majority of players for getting the feel of things than text alone--picture is worth a thousand words and all that). Likely also fleshing out some of the other aspects of the PHB as well, since I think there has been some discussion about clearing up some of the more ambiguous aspects of the 2014 rules.
And, again, maybe you want more body about your species. If that is the case, here you go. But, the reality? MMM and the UA content already contain about the same level of useful information as the 2014 PHB does--there is not really any "in between". Sure, the 2014 PHB also contains setting specific lore for those species in Forgotten Realms (but only another couple of paragraphs)--but that information remains redundant with other sources, irrelevant to the largest setting (homebrew), only semi-relevant to the second largest setting (homebrew based on an official campaign setting.
Fortunately, as I stated in my first post on this thread, Wizards understands their players and what their players actually need. They are not going to give us filler when they can give us content--and when the people (like you) who apparently need the filler can easily get it elsewhere.
There’s 8 more subclasses than there were in 2014, once you redistribute the excess from Cleric and Wizard. At a guess, I’d predict the pruning of almost the entire background section covers that page count. Where exactly are they hurting for space to the point they can’t write a few paragraphs more than the UA on race info?
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I agree with you that roleplay prompts are a good thing - and my copy of Dragonlance is full of them. Information on the gods, the factions, the core races, the history of the world, it's all there. And yes, they should definitely publish an update to Forgotten Realms, preferably one that includes all the new canon introduced in BG3.
And the thing about your copy of Dragonlance is that's an extra $30+ bucks new to get at the material, which again is going to be a bit off-putting for a group that's just starting to dip a toe in the waters. A few paragraphs of simple lore in the PHB is unlikely to displace any other content you would find particularly crucial, especially with all the background tables being pulled, and make it much more accessible for people who want to pick up the core 3 and try out the game. There's a reason it's called role-playing, and the core books should provide a simple but solid foundation for that, not just tell them to figure it out for themselves or buy more products.
If you want to dip your toes in the water... adventure books include the amount of background you need to run the adventure. If you want to get a new player interested in a PC species, the main things you need are (a) a description of the cool things you can do, and (b) a cool picture.
Except you still need to buy the core books on top of that, which is my point. The core books should provide enough material to build a character from scratch and give you some direction on playing into your major character creation points without needing an additional $40 purchase.
They do. People do not need that fluff. In fact, the vast majority of the time it's completely irrelevant because the PCs aren't from some ancestral lands from which the species originated, they're from the local culture and they'll be like people from that culture.
i feel like dipping one's toes comes before purchase of core books. anyone dropping a hundred dollars on a new hobby before "dipping their toes in" had better hope they remembered to take their cellphone out of their pocket before the metaphor gets rowdy.
the PHB gives you race and class, then session zero gives you a chance to ask questions that help you integrate (or make a change). that's plenty to start with, isn't it? the dragonlance book isn't an additional cost to everyone any more than is spelljammer, ravinca, or the tortle package. it's optional on a sliding scale of relevancy that can dip into negative territory. would it be nice to have a campaign-adjacent setting book so your character knows all the best most appropriate ways to swear? yes. do you need to know what size gap a plasmoid can squeeze though before you accost your first caravan guard, goblin, or giant rat? by Tymora's itchy nose, no you do not.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Are you suggesting they should include lore on every setting in the PHB? I'm sorry, but that's ludicrous; they own like a dozen of the things not even counting the plethora of MTG settings. Some Forgotten Realms information I can understand, maybe with a nod towards how Eberron is drastically different, and it sounds like Planescape might even end up being their "backstage of the Multiverse" going forward - but they shouldn't branch out from there to covering Krynn and Greyhawk and Ravenloft and Athas and Mystara and Blackmoor and Al'Qadim and Rokugan and Spelljammer etc etc all in the PHB. Expecting players to buy a setting book or module to get information on those settings is reasonable, and the ones who don't want to do that can simply hit up the nearest wiki for free as a starting point.
I'm too lazy to read the whole thread so I'll say this as my 2cp worth......For whatever it is worth, It could be worse, it could be the Games Workshop model of revamping editions and rules with increasing regularity, for context; Warhammer 40k: Rogue Trader/1st edition was release in 1987, Warhammer 40k 2nd edition was released 1993, 3rd edition was 1998, 4th edition was 2004, 5th edition 2008, 6th edition 2012, 7th edition 2014, 8th edition 2017, 9th edition 2020 and finally 10th edition just last year 2023.
Building off the above, let's, for fun, look at what "fluff" players get during character creation under the 2024 model.
MMM provides players a couple paragraphs description for each species, including where they came from, some of their core personality traits, and a bit about their abilities. The types of ability the species have, as well as the flavor of their names, also provides information about what the species is like. In Unearthed Arcana 1, which had species options, we got even more information (about a paragraph more content per species) than was provided for the species in MMM, so it looks like Wizards has decided they will be expanding on MMM's model with the core books. MMM is sufficient on its own to allow a player to figure out what a species' schtick is; the new Core Books seem like they will be sufficient as well.
We have not seen any 2024 classes (in the way MMM provided 2024 monsters and species), so we have to look at the UA to see what information someone is getting about their chosen class. Again, here we have several paragraphs of information about what makes up the class--where their power is drawn from, some suggestions on how the powers manifest, some suggestions of what types of character might fit with that class.
I really, really do not see a problem with there not being enough information to make up a character. With years of teaching new players under my belt, I can say most of them do not read more than the introductory paragraphs anyway, and many do not look beyond the art for species selection or the (generally self-explanatory) names of classes. Frankly, less is sometimes more--I think we all know that new players often are turned off by those big walls of text, and a bite sized chunk of the basics might be more palatable to them.
writing a whole magazine must be tough, but i feel like shutting down had just as much to do corporation stuff: wanting either more control over frequent content or else saving up the best ideas for the hardback books. or both. so they've ceded that space to 3rd party vendors rather than compete with them. but for many of us that just devalues the ocean of 'unofficial' lore on offer. there's so much to sift through and no guarantee of quality or continued relevancy. DBB could meliorate some of this by offering articles that recommend "additional reading material" like novels and certain highlighted dmsguild supplements. of course we'd be skeptical about whether this was secretly paid-for advertising... so they could just be up-front about it.
additionally, they might offer subscribed members more frequent deep-dive lore content and bring back encounters of the week. it wouldn't hurt to have a reason to land on the front page occasionally instead of... let's see... four blurbs selling humblewood, two blurbs selling vecna pre-order, something about that MAPS thing i don't pay enough to use yet, a "turning 50" blurb about upcoming book sales, and a reminder that there's a dnd video game you can buy. somebody get ed greenwood over here to talk about how the Second Sundering affected church attendance in Cormyr or how the Spellplague changed caravan insurance coverage in Yartar! most players might never go to those places but the fleshing out of the world gives it life and gives me ideas that carry over into my campaign. also, it doesn't require hiring programmers like creating new (or fixing existing) digital tools would. there's lots of room for d&d to grow.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Isn’t that kind of thing available for free in the basic rules? Or is it not? I realize I’ve never actually read them over.
At the moment, yes, that portion of the PHB is also in the Basic Rules, and should remain in both sources imo. These are not two separately designed documents; the entries in the Basic Rules are lifted straight from the PHB, and I expect the current set to be replaced alongside the current PHB in September. Ergo it seems logical to conclude that if material is going to remain in the BR, it needs to be in the PHB as well.
Yeah, but to be fair the supplements and army books from one edition are forwards compatible and the main rules are backwards compatible for the most part. So, like, for example the Eldar codex was still relevant and useable through several editions of the game. That’s the equivalent of all the Warlock subclasses we currently have available being useable across 3 editions of the game.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Hell I would be curious as to how hard a basic DMG and MM would be to develop?
They wouldn’t hand over all that is in the full text of such documents, but enough to spark the fire that might just push one to consider the cost of going for the full package.
The basic rules are but a sample of the whole, and IMHO wonder at how it probably entices people to seek out the whole.
Wizbro has means to rectify the situation they have. It just feels or looks like other factors are distracting from what, to a segment of the community's perception, poor choices of decisions that were made that could have been better handled in the public eye.
We have no idea what the new update will bring, how it will impact the community and game as a whole, and what the response will be.
but that’s my two coppers worth of ranting.
For comparison, here's what the 1e PHB had to say about the culture of dwarves
That's it. If you want more detail, check the monster manual -- which didn't actually have meaningfully more about the culture, but did give things like physical description.
Zero effort, since it's already done. Chapter 12 of the basic rules is a selected set of creatures from the monster manual, chapters 13-15 are from the DMG.
As I’ve repeatedly said, I’m not pushing for “walls of text” like in MToF or VGtM for the races in the PHB. Would prefer a little more body than MotM, but something between that and the entries in the current PHB should provide some good inspiration for the people who want it without using up too many all-important pages that could otherwise go towards… what exactly are people saying we need to preserve page count for?
This is a circular argument that works both ways, and to me that is no reason to go down the make everything setting agnostic path. It strips the lore and that removes valuable content that is far easier left out of the game if it is not wanted, than it is to put it back in the game if you do want it.
Players and DM's that want some basic lore in their game shouldn't have to buy video games and books from other editions to get it, when those that don't want it can easily leave it in the book and out of their game.
Lore or no lore the player vs DM arguments and discussions will, as they always have, continue to be a part of D&D. Taking the lore out just unnecessarily hamstrings the DM that wants it in the game, it doesn't mean the player will get what they want if they play at that table.
My main point is : the books will sell either way, they would be better books with some lore left in most of them.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
If you have followed the development of the 2024 release, you would know the answer to that--more subclasses than the original PHB held and art (which is probably more important to the majority of players for getting the feel of things than text alone--picture is worth a thousand words and all that). Likely also fleshing out some of the other aspects of the PHB as well, since I think there has been some discussion about clearing up some of the more ambiguous aspects of the 2014 rules.
And, again, maybe you want more body about your species. If that is the case, here you go. But, the reality? MMM and the UA content already contain about the same level of useful information as the 2014 PHB does--there is not really any "in between". Sure, the 2014 PHB also contains setting specific lore for those species in Forgotten Realms (but only another couple of paragraphs)--but that information remains redundant with other sources, irrelevant to the largest setting (homebrew), only semi-relevant to the second largest setting (homebrew based on an official campaign setting.
Fortunately, as I stated in my first post on this thread, Wizards understands their players and what their players actually need. They are not going to give us filler when they can give us content--and when the people (like you) who apparently need the filler can easily get it elsewhere.
There’s 8 more subclasses than there were in 2014, once you redistribute the excess from Cleric and Wizard. At a guess, I’d predict the pruning of almost the entire background section covers that page count. Where exactly are they hurting for space to the point they can’t write a few paragraphs more than the UA on race info?