The removal of codifying exactly two potential pairings as the only ones that are officially supported by the material is not a loss of diversity. It's surprising that they're not including the sidebar from the UA, but given that it's ultimately a question to be fielded by the DM it could make sense to put in the DMG; there's already a "Creating New Character Options" in the current DMG that discusses creating new races or subraces, wouldn't be a bad place to include the blurb to clarify that it's within the DM's scope to rule what makes sense for the setting.
You can no longer play half-orc or half-elf specifically from a mechanical perspective (the 2014 Player's Handbook will still be an option to choose from, it's not going anywhere)
So you can confirm that we'll be able to use the 2014 half-elf with the 2024 backgrounds?
pretty sure you can tho you just wouldnt use the ASI from the race or the background
The question is whether the system will be set-up so you can NOT take the ASI from the background or choose where the bonuses are coming from.
Honestly... I'm probably just going to write-up of half-species myself and throw something on the Dungeon Master's Guild.
If its just a couple races its annoying but not a huge deal. But if I have to hack a game too much to make it what I want, it's often easier to just find a system that already gives me what I want...
In the first 5E game I ran, my worldbuilding was that species were not reproductively compatible except for a few exceptions, and I had an in-game reason for those (a plot point that the players never explored).
I think that in the next game I GM I'm just going to rule that none of the species can interbreed. I don't feel that it ever added anything of value to the game.
Half-Dragons, there where two kinds of Half-Dragons in D&D history. One kind were dragons forced into humanoid shapes ie Dragonlace.
The other kind are also called were-dragons. People who have both a dragon parent and a human parent, that can shapeshift between dragon and human shape. BTW these were dragons should not be confused with were dragons which are true dragons who live life in human guise. ie Song Dragons, and somegold, silver and bronze dragons.
Oh ok. Wonder how that works? Magic I would assume!
that does make me wonder how dragonborn came about. Guess I’d better brush up on my lore.
Magic is usually the Answer, that and 3rd Edition.
So first the classic "Half-Dragon" what people assume Dragonborn to be, this is both a unique species and the children of Dragons. The idea came during 1st edition, basically humanoid dragons, they had Tails (Important detail). They sometimes also had wings, mechanically they played like Dragonborn, only with the alignment based on scale color holding true.
Dragonlance Half-Dragons or Draconians, created by foul magic using dragon eggs to make an Army. Almost always evil aligned, usually in service of the bad guys, plays like dragonborn, have tails and sometimes wings.
Half-Dragons... the other kind. Mom or dad was a Dragon who could shapeshift human or elf, looks human (or elf) , can shapeshift into a dragon. Never looks like a humanoid Dragon, but can manifest wings as a human (or elf). I find this group to be useful NPCs. Half-Drow/Half Shadow Dragons they control an entire city in the Underdark. A city of Assassins BTW.
Were-dragons (Classic misnomer) these are true Dragons who spend their life shapeshifted as humans, Song Dragons being highly notable for this, as all members of this species of dragon live their lives as women in cities, only changing to their dragon shapes in time of emergency or when dealing with their dragon biology. (Were creatures in D&D are usually creatures under a curse, were dragons are not cursed)
Dragonborn, a species of humanoid dragons native to the world of Abier (complicated history. long ago Toril, the world D&D takes place on, had a war between giants and dragons, to save the world the planet was sundered into 2 different realities, one half became Toril that we know, and the other half became Abier the world of Dragons and Elementals. Bad things happened to the mortal races of Abier, and the Dragonborn are the descendants of those people, the dragonborn of toril were plane shifted to toril in a massive event that happened during the Spell plague in 1385DR, current year 1492DR. It's more complicated than my explanation, and I'm sure some youtube video will say it better. But the reality is, Dragonborn only look like Dragons, they are a unique species made on Abier out of the Mortal Species who were there under the Rule of Dragons. Also Dragonborn have no Tails, and except in very rare cases, no wings either.
If it has tail looks like a dragon in human shape and size = Half-Dragon
if it has no tail in humanoid shape and size = Dragonborn
If it looks like a human (or elf) and can use dragon magic, it might be a Sorceress/sorcerer, were-dragon, or half-dragon, which when you think about it, this is why Dragon Sorcery is a thing.
On that last fun bit... Dragonkin, basically looks like a humanoid dragon with tail and wings, but large sized like a small dragon. These were technically a subspecies of Dragons used by the Cult of the Dragon as muscle. Don't worry they never made the transit past 3rd. Although they can be found in World of Warcraft. Technically the Dracthyr are this.
Do note that Dragonborn can have tails now according to the 2024 PHB art; also Baldurs Gate 3. So that distinction seems to have been retconned out, at least in official material.
"Permanent/Physical wings = Half-Dragon or Draconian" seems to be intact however.
To expand a little on half-dragons, per Fizban's they can also come from a dragon just living in an area for long enough. Or be the product of certain magical effects related to dragons. Not seeing wings in the template features for the Monster Manual, but given it's already a case of reworking existing stats that's hardly a non-negotiable point in their design.
So, if the proposed UA rules are not in the 2024 PHB, and the 2014 PHB is still allowed, then we still have half-elves and half-orcs? Have I understood that correctly?
In other words, if there is a character option that exists in older books, but doesn’t exist in this book, then those older options are still playable under the following rules.
So it looks like Half-Elf and Half-orc are still... official?
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
So, if the proposed UA rules are not in the 2024 PHB, and the 2014 PHB is still allowed, then we still have half-elves and half-orcs? Have I understood that correctly?
In other words, if there is a character option that exists in older books, but doesn’t exist in this book, then those older options are still playable under the following rules.
So it looks like Half-Elf and Half-orc are still... official?
Half-Dragons, there where two kinds of Half-Dragons in D&D history. One kind were dragons forced into humanoid shapes ie Dragonlace.
The other kind are also called were-dragons. People who have both a dragon parent and a human parent, that can shapeshift between dragon and human shape. BTW these were dragons should not be confused with were dragons which are true dragons who live life in human guise. ie Song Dragons, and somegold, silver and bronze dragons.
Oh ok. Wonder how that works? Magic I would assume!
that does make me wonder how dragonborn came about. Guess I’d better brush up on my lore.
Magic is usually the Answer, that and 3rd Edition.
So first the classic "Half-Dragon" what people assume Dragonborn to be, this is both a unique species and the children of Dragons. The idea came during 1st edition, basically humanoid dragons, they had Tails (Important detail). They sometimes also had wings, mechanically they played like Dragonborn, only with the alignment based on scale color holding true.
Dragonlance Half-Dragons or Draconians, created by foul magic using dragon eggs to make an Army. Almost always evil aligned, usually in service of the bad guys, plays like dragonborn, have tails and sometimes wings.
Half-Dragons... the other kind. Mom or dad was a Dragon who could shapeshift human or elf, looks human (or elf) , can shapeshift into a dragon. Never looks like a humanoid Dragon, but can manifest wings as a human (or elf). I find this group to be useful NPCs. Half-Drow/Half Shadow Dragons they control an entire city in the Underdark. A city of Assassins BTW.
Were-dragons (Classic misnomer) these are true Dragons who spend their life shapeshifted as humans, Song Dragons being highly notable for this, as all members of this species of dragon live their lives as women in cities, only changing to their dragon shapes in time of emergency or when dealing with their dragon biology. (Were creatures in D&D are usually creatures under a curse, were dragons are not cursed)
Dragonborn, a species of humanoid dragons native to the world of Abier (complicated history. long ago Toril, the world D&D takes place on, had a war between giants and dragons, to save the world the planet was sundered into 2 different realities, one half became Toril that we know, and the other half became Abier the world of Dragons and Elementals. Bad things happened to the mortal races of Abier, and the Dragonborn are the descendants of those people, the dragonborn of toril were plane shifted to toril in a massive event that happened during the Spell plague in 1385DR, current year 1492DR. It's more complicated than my explanation, and I'm sure some youtube video will say it better. But the reality is, Dragonborn only look like Dragons, they are a unique species made on Abier out of the Mortal Species who were there under the Rule of Dragons. Also Dragonborn have no Tails, and except in very rare cases, no wings either.
If it has tail looks like a dragon in human shape and size = Half-Dragon
if it has no tail in humanoid shape and size = Dragonborn
If it looks like a human (or elf) and can use dragon magic, it might be a Sorceress/sorcerer, were-dragon, or half-dragon, which when you think about it, this is why Dragon Sorcery is a thing.
On that last fun bit... Dragonkin, basically looks like a humanoid dragon with tail and wings, but large sized like a small dragon. These were technically a subspecies of Dragons used by the Cult of the Dragon as muscle. Don't worry they never made the transit past 3rd. Although they can be found in World of Warcraft. Technically the Dracthyr are this.
Wow. Thanks for the history lesson! Very interesting.
Do note that Dragonborn can have tails now according to the 2024 PHB art; also Baldurs Gate 3. So that distinction seems to have been retconned out, at least in official material.
"Permanent/Physical wings = Half-Dragon or Draconian" seems to be intact however.
So Dragonborn *do* have tails. Or only sometimes? I don’t know, I’ve always imagined Dragonborn in my head to sometimes have tails and other times have no tails.
at least I know for a fact that teiflings have tails (although the length and thickness of the tail seems to vary). Now I just got to figure out how to pronounce the word.
So, if the proposed UA rules are not in the 2024 PHB, and the 2014 PHB is still allowed, then we still have half-elves and half-orcs? Have I understood that correctly?
In other words, if there is a character option that exists in older books, but doesn’t exist in this book, then those older options are still playable under the following rules.
So it looks like Half-Elf and Half-orc are still... official?
Yes. Following the guidance in the book. You can still play the 2014 Half Orc or Half Elf, but you'd use the ability score increases from your background instead.
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Tieflings: pronounced similar to “teeth”. Apparently the word was coined using the German word “tief”, meaning “deep” (as they’re associated with the Lower Planes).
So it looks like Half-Elf and Half-orc are still... official?
They're still usable if the DM is choosing to mix in 2014 content, which is a bit different. However, there's a pretty simple solution to hybrid characters: assuming a 2024 equivalent to Creating a New Race exists (which I would be very surprised if was not true), the answer is "Work with your DM to create a new species that represents a hybrid of two parent species".
Do note that Dragonborn can have tails now according to the 2024 PHB art; also Baldurs Gate 3. So that distinction seems to have been retconned out, at least in official material.
"Permanent/Physical wings = Half-Dragon or Draconian" seems to be intact however.
So Dragonborn *do* have tails. Or only sometimes? I don’t know, I’ve always imagined Dragonborn in my head to sometimes have tails and other times have no tails.
at least I know for a fact that teiflings have tails (although the length and thickness of the tail seems to vary). Now I just got to figure out how to pronounce the word.
Well I stand corrected if this is what they do in the 5.24 books. I always took the tails in BG3 as more homebrew, and fan service. As lots of tables are very loose on the lore and allow people to make their characters with the physical traits they like best. (I do this, it's why I allowed a Purple Orc). My answer was only aimed at the Forgotten Realms lore, and also since Greyhawk is coming back as a main setting in the new books, I'm sure the lore for Dragonborn there would be different than the lore for Dragonborn in Toril.
at least I know for a fact that teiflings have tails (although the length and thickness of the tail seems to vary). Now I just got to figure out how to pronounce the word.
Oh last thing there is a scene in BG3 that helps with this, if you have Lae'zel do her quest line, and make certain choices, you can get her all flustered over how to say Tiefling and Faerûn.
Trying to mechanically separate characters with parents of different humanoid types runs into problems: 1) It makes people with multiracial backgrounds seem inherently and innately different form their parents, which is uncomfortable for many people who are actually multiracial. 2) It gives special exclusionary status to Half Elf and Half Orc specifically, out of all the other kinds of multispecies characters one could make, which is odd and again uncomfortable. 3) It begs the question why you can't make characters with parents of different sorts, or ancestry that includes more than two humanoid types, which is way too complex to mechanize well
The solution posed on the Origins UA solves all these rather neatly. It makes it so that ones ancestry is lore rather than gameable mechanics and also doesn't innately make people who have such ancestry into some weird, innate, other. Plus it allows the freedom to make characters of whatever ancestry one would like and doesn't give special exclusion to just Half Elf and Half Orc. I hope the UA Origins solution made it through to PHB '24.
Are you unfamiliar with the term Third Culture Kid? Many of us do see our being bicultural as placing us in a category of our own. I teach bicultural kids in a foreign country for a living and this is how they identify. I don't think Wizards particularly care whether or not they upset people who are multiethnic. Whoever is making these decisions is displaying gross bias.
I am multiethnic. What I am uncomfortable with is the idea I must choose the ethnicity of one parent or the other. It is like how historically racist people expected people in the past who were multiethnic to choose the ethnicity to which they "belonged." It is gross.
That’s plausible: fingers crossed.
The removal of codifying exactly two potential pairings as the only ones that are officially supported by the material is not a loss of diversity. It's surprising that they're not including the sidebar from the UA, but given that it's ultimately a question to be fielded by the DM it could make sense to put in the DMG; there's already a "Creating New Character Options" in the current DMG that discusses creating new races or subraces, wouldn't be a bad place to include the blurb to clarify that it's within the DM's scope to rule what makes sense for the setting.
The question is whether the system will be set-up so you can NOT take the ASI from the background or choose where the bonuses are coming from.
You can choose the option to adapt an old Background into the new system, which let's you choose your ASI freely as well as an Origin Feat.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Honestly... I'm probably just going to write-up of half-species myself and throw something on the Dungeon Master's Guild.
If its just a couple races its annoying but not a huge deal.
But if I have to hack a game too much to make it what I want, it's often easier to just find a system that already gives me what I want...
In the first 5E game I ran, my worldbuilding was that species were not reproductively compatible except for a few exceptions, and I had an in-game reason for those (a plot point that the players never explored).
I think that in the next game I GM I'm just going to rule that none of the species can interbreed. I don't feel that it ever added anything of value to the game.
Magic is usually the Answer, that and 3rd Edition.
So first the classic "Half-Dragon" what people assume Dragonborn to be, this is both a unique species and the children of Dragons. The idea came during 1st edition, basically humanoid dragons, they had Tails (Important detail). They sometimes also had wings, mechanically they played like Dragonborn, only with the alignment based on scale color holding true.
Dragonlance Half-Dragons or Draconians, created by foul magic using dragon eggs to make an Army. Almost always evil aligned, usually in service of the bad guys, plays like dragonborn, have tails and sometimes wings.
Half-Dragons... the other kind. Mom or dad was a Dragon who could shapeshift human or elf, looks human (or elf) , can shapeshift into a dragon. Never looks like a humanoid Dragon, but can manifest wings as a human (or elf). I find this group to be useful NPCs. Half-Drow/Half Shadow Dragons they control an entire city in the Underdark. A city of Assassins BTW.
Were-dragons (Classic misnomer) these are true Dragons who spend their life shapeshifted as humans, Song Dragons being highly notable for this, as all members of this species of dragon live their lives as women in cities, only changing to their dragon shapes in time of emergency or when dealing with their dragon biology. (Were creatures in D&D are usually creatures under a curse, were dragons are not cursed)
Dragonborn, a species of humanoid dragons native to the world of Abier (complicated history. long ago Toril, the world D&D takes place on, had a war between giants and dragons, to save the world the planet was sundered into 2 different realities, one half became Toril that we know, and the other half became Abier the world of Dragons and Elementals. Bad things happened to the mortal races of Abier, and the Dragonborn are the descendants of those people, the dragonborn of toril were plane shifted to toril in a massive event that happened during the Spell plague in 1385DR, current year 1492DR. It's more complicated than my explanation, and I'm sure some youtube video will say it better. But the reality is, Dragonborn only look like Dragons, they are a unique species made on Abier out of the Mortal Species who were there under the Rule of Dragons. Also Dragonborn have no Tails, and except in very rare cases, no wings either.
If it has tail looks like a dragon in human shape and size = Half-Dragon
if it has no tail in humanoid shape and size = Dragonborn
If it looks like a human (or elf) and can use dragon magic, it might be a Sorceress/sorcerer, were-dragon, or half-dragon, which when you think about it, this is why Dragon Sorcery is a thing.
On that last fun bit... Dragonkin, basically looks like a humanoid dragon with tail and wings, but large sized like a small dragon. These were technically a subspecies of Dragons used by the Cult of the Dragon as muscle. Don't worry they never made the transit past 3rd. Although they can be found in World of Warcraft. Technically the Dracthyr are this.
Do note that Dragonborn can have tails now according to the 2024 PHB art; also Baldurs Gate 3. So that distinction seems to have been retconned out, at least in official material.
"Permanent/Physical wings = Half-Dragon or Draconian" seems to be intact however.
To expand a little on half-dragons, per Fizban's they can also come from a dragon just living in an area for long enough. Or be the product of certain magical effects related to dragons. Not seeing wings in the template features for the Monster Manual, but given it's already a case of reworking existing stats that's hardly a non-negotiable point in their design.
So, if the proposed UA rules are not in the 2024 PHB, and the 2014 PHB is still allowed, then we still have half-elves and half-orcs? Have I understood that correctly?
EDIT: From Sillvva's post here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/202611-rules-summary-using-2014-character-options-on-2024
So it looks like Half-Elf and Half-orc are still... official?
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Yes
Wow. Thanks for the history lesson! Very interesting.
So Dragonborn *do* have tails. Or only sometimes? I don’t know, I’ve always imagined Dragonborn in my head to sometimes have tails and other times have no tails.
at least I know for a fact that teiflings have tails (although the length and thickness of the tail seems to vary). Now I just got to figure out how to pronounce the word.
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ModeratorYes. Following the guidance in the book. You can still play the 2014 Half Orc or Half Elf, but you'd use the ability score increases from your background instead.
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Tieflings: pronounced similar to “teeth”. Apparently the word was coined using the German word “tief”, meaning “deep” (as they’re associated with the Lower Planes).
Ah, thank you! It was either tee-fling or tie-fling but I’m glad I finally learnt the proper way to say it. Also, that’s a very cool fun fact.
They're still usable if the DM is choosing to mix in 2014 content, which is a bit different. However, there's a pretty simple solution to hybrid characters: assuming a 2024 equivalent to Creating a New Race exists (which I would be very surprised if was not true), the answer is "Work with your DM to create a new species that represents a hybrid of two parent species".
Well I stand corrected if this is what they do in the 5.24 books. I always took the tails in BG3 as more homebrew, and fan service. As lots of tables are very loose on the lore and allow people to make their characters with the physical traits they like best. (I do this, it's why I allowed a Purple Orc). My answer was only aimed at the Forgotten Realms lore, and also since Greyhawk is coming back as a main setting in the new books, I'm sure the lore for Dragonborn there would be different than the lore for Dragonborn in Toril.
Oh last thing there is a scene in BG3 that helps with this, if you have Lae'zel do her quest line, and make certain choices, you can get her all flustered over how to say Tiefling and Faerûn.
I'm just someone who still calls them "races"
Are you unfamiliar with the term Third Culture Kid? Many of us do see our being bicultural as placing us in a category of our own. I teach bicultural kids in a foreign country for a living and this is how they identify. I don't think Wizards particularly care whether or not they upset people who are multiethnic. Whoever is making these decisions is displaying gross bias.
I am multiethnic. What I am uncomfortable with is the idea I must choose the ethnicity of one parent or the other. It is like how historically racist people expected people in the past who were multiethnic to choose the ethnicity to which they "belonged." It is gross.