Bat familiar is flying over a lake in darkness. Swarm of Quippers is in the water.
Does the bat's blindsense detect the quippers?
Does it work like echolocation where the water is going to reflect the echolocation and the bat will only see the surface of the water (Real life)? Or is the Blindsense a fantasy effect and will see into the water to it's max range?
In real life hearing distance is significantly reduced in water yet there's no rule to that effect in 5E and Echolocation is unaffected by water, but a DM could always reduce a Bat's Blindsight sense if wanted.
Why is there no radar in water? Unfortunately, Microwaves are strongly absorbed by sea water within feet of their transmission. This renders radar unusable underwater. The reason is mainly because radar has a harder time penetrating large volumes of water.
Does radar work through water? Detecting Objects with Invisible Waves: Using Radar, Sonar ... While radar can effectively move through or around various environmental conditions, it is much less effective underwater. The electromagnetic waves of radar are absorbed in large bodies of water within feet of transmission. Instead, we use Sonar in underwater applications.
Is radar absorbed by water? Radar cannot be used efficiently in water as microwaves used in radar are absorbed by water within a few feet of their transmission.
How does radar interact with water? Specular reflection occurs when the radar beam makes contact with a smooth body of water. The radar beam is specularly reflected, or reflected forward away from the radar sensor, resulting in low backscatter values.
Does it work like echolocation where the water is going to reflect the echolocation and the bat will only see the surface of the water (Real life)? Or is the Blindsense a fantasy effect and will see into the water to it's max range?
Bat's echolocation effectively bounces off of water
Perpahs in real life, but not in 5E, Echolocation is not affected by water but by being deafened, and you can still hear in water. But like i said, DM can always rule it out.
I have a different take on this since this is a "Detect" question, and not a targeting question, which I am reading as "Do I know there is something in the water?"
This is a Perception check really. Are the Quipper's using Stealth to hide or be quiet? It could be argued that it might be disadvantage, but I guess that might depend on if the Quippers are hiding, or already doing something that would make noise. Does it "see" an outline of the fish? Maybe not...but it might only know something swimming, likely a fish is there.
A separate question is if detected, what does that Bat know. I'd argue only that it knew something was in the water, but not a detailed what. Familiar bats are just animals, so knowing there are a bunch of fish in the water is reasonable. To know it is a swarm of dangerous quippers, not so much.
Sonar is echolocation for boats. When submarines ping they're sending out soundwaves as an active sonar pulse to identify things around them. (Fun fact, this is where the networking term ping comes from.) Also, whales echolocate. There are enough species of bat that predate on fish that I expect either their echolocation senses to some depth in the water reliably or they can identify fish based on how the fish behavior upsets the surface of the water.
So for a swarm of quippers that attack things in a frenzy, I'd expect a bat to notice the water getting disturbed, frothed up, etc. and be able to understand something fishy is going on. Especially a familiar bat.
Generally speaking, though, even if something wouldn't work in the real world, rule of cool or "a wizard did it" are perfectly valid reasons to allow it to work in the game.
It is incredibly hard to find people in the water, visually or by radar. Search and rescue needs many technologies to be successful. For someone in the water, even in flat calm conditions, your radius of visual contact is no more than half a mile. Add a few waves and it become near impossible, unless they are wearing something reflective or a bright colour. Radar relies on reflection of a microwave beam. It reflects off water and waves cause a problem, in the form of ‘sea clutter’. humans are mostly water and will give a good return, if above the water. In the water, humans are indistinguishable from the surrounding water.
So, we are back to the same question. Is Blindsense a form of echolocation or is it a fantasy effect?
In 5E a Bat's Blindsight is a sense that let it perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius and Echolocation a trait which the bat can't use its blindsight while deafened, nothing more, nothing less.
So, we are back to the same question. Is Blindsense a form of echolocation or is it a fantasy effect?
Yes.
It is an approximation and condensation of a range of possible forms of sense, including echolocation. When you use it to imitate a given sense, you apply further rules to it so it forms a closer verisimilitude to that sense. For example, with echolocation, it cannot be used while deafened.
Blindsight is not a echolocation. It is an umbrella rule that can be adapted to mimic echolocation (namely, it ceases to work while deafened. If you wish to further adapt it to create a greater verisimilitude, feel free.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
So, we are back to the same question. Is Blindsense a form of echolocation or is it a fantasy effect?
It is a Rules effect. The rules state how certain things work. They don't always align with real world effects. You can make an argument with your GM but they might not rule in a way that you prefer.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Yes, the bat can see them, because D&D 5e isn't trying to exactly replicate real life. 5e prioritizes speed of play and ease of understanding over simulation.
Situation:
Bat familiar is flying over a lake in darkness. Swarm of Quippers is in the water.
Does the bat's blindsense detect the quippers?
Does it work like echolocation where the water is going to reflect the echolocation and the bat will only see the surface of the water (Real life)? Or is the Blindsense a fantasy effect and will see into the water to it's max range?
Tell me your thoughts
Being in water doesn't make you deafened so a Bat should perceive any Swarm of Quippers within 60 feet of it in dark water with its Blindsight sense.
In real life hearing distance is significantly reduced in water yet there's no rule to that effect in 5E and Echolocation is unaffected by water, but a DM could always reduce a Bat's Blindsight sense if wanted.
Aerial Echolocation is effected by water : https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms1110
Bat's echolocation effectively bounces off of water
Why is there no radar in water?
Unfortunately, Microwaves are strongly absorbed by sea water within feet of their transmission. This renders radar unusable underwater. The reason is mainly because radar has a harder time penetrating large volumes of water.
Does radar work through water?
Detecting Objects with Invisible Waves: Using Radar, Sonar ...
While radar can effectively move through or around various environmental conditions, it is much less effective underwater. The electromagnetic waves of radar are absorbed in large bodies of water within feet of transmission. Instead, we use Sonar in underwater applications.
Is radar absorbed by water?
Radar cannot be used efficiently in water as microwaves used in radar are absorbed by water within a few feet of their transmission.
How does radar interact with water?
Specular reflection occurs when the radar beam makes contact with a smooth body of water. The radar beam is specularly reflected, or reflected forward away from the radar sensor, resulting in low backscatter values.
So, the question still remains :
Does it work like echolocation where the water is going to reflect the echolocation and the bat will only see the surface of the water (Real life)? Or is the Blindsense a fantasy effect and will see into the water to it's max range?
Perpahs in real life, but not in 5E, Echolocation is not affected by water but by being deafened, and you can still hear in water. But like i said, DM can always rule it out.
I have a different take on this since this is a "Detect" question, and not a targeting question, which I am reading as "Do I know there is something in the water?"
This is a Perception check really. Are the Quipper's using Stealth to hide or be quiet? It could be argued that it might be disadvantage, but I guess that might depend on if the Quippers are hiding, or already doing something that would make noise. Does it "see" an outline of the fish? Maybe not...but it might only know something swimming, likely a fish is there.
A separate question is if detected, what does that Bat know. I'd argue only that it knew something was in the water, but not a detailed what. Familiar bats are just animals, so knowing there are a bunch of fish in the water is reasonable. To know it is a swarm of dangerous quippers, not so much.
Sonar is echolocation for boats. When submarines ping they're sending out soundwaves as an active sonar pulse to identify things around them. (Fun fact, this is where the networking term ping comes from.) Also, whales echolocate. There are enough species of bat that predate on fish that I expect either their echolocation senses to some depth in the water reliably or they can identify fish based on how the fish behavior upsets the surface of the water.
So for a swarm of quippers that attack things in a frenzy, I'd expect a bat to notice the water getting disturbed, frothed up, etc. and be able to understand something fishy is going on. Especially a familiar bat.
Generally speaking, though, even if something wouldn't work in the real world, rule of cool or "a wizard did it" are perfectly valid reasons to allow it to work in the game.
It is incredibly hard to find people in the water, visually or by radar. Search and rescue needs many technologies to be successful. For someone in the water, even in flat calm conditions, your radius of visual contact is no more than half a mile. Add a few waves and it become near impossible, unless they are wearing something reflective or a bright colour. Radar relies on reflection of a microwave beam. It reflects off water and waves cause a problem, in the form of ‘sea clutter’. humans are mostly water and will give a good return, if above the water. In the water, humans are indistinguishable from the surrounding water.
So, we are back to the same question. Is Blindsense a form of echolocation or is it a fantasy effect?
In 5E a Bat's Blindsight is a sense that let it perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius and Echolocation a trait which the bat can't use its blindsight while deafened, nothing more, nothing less.
Anything else beyond that is DM rulings.
Yes.
It is an approximation and condensation of a range of possible forms of sense, including echolocation. When you use it to imitate a given sense, you apply further rules to it so it forms a closer verisimilitude to that sense. For example, with echolocation, it cannot be used while deafened.
Blindsight is not a echolocation. It is an umbrella rule that can be adapted to mimic echolocation (namely, it ceases to work while deafened. If you wish to further adapt it to create a greater verisimilitude, feel free.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
It is a Rules effect. The rules state how certain things work. They don't always align with real world effects. You can make an argument with your GM but they might not rule in a way that you prefer.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Yes, the bat can see them, because D&D 5e isn't trying to exactly replicate real life. 5e prioritizes speed of play and ease of understanding over simulation.
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