In one of my campaigns, I have a character who isn't stealthy, and so the player asked the following.
" ((Hm, if Armeros uses his armor to cast levitate on himself, could he move silently if someone on the ground pulled him along through the air lol?)) " Just wanted to share, as I think this is a creative way to get around not being stealthy.
I think it was a good bit of creativity, I would definitely allow it. Though a weird scenario would be if they went over a pit trap, could the person hang on to the levitated one?
I think it was a good bit of creativity, I would definitely allow it. Though a weird scenario would be if they went over a pit trap, could the person hang on to the levitated one?
IMO depends on the weight. The spell specifies up to 500 lbs so if their combined weight doesn't exceed that, sure. But if they weigh more than that because they've looted everything including the doors from the dungeon then you're gonna start seeing a descent into the pit trap if you try it.
It's no different than wearing boots of elvenkind, which also makes footsteps silent. The result is advantage on stealth checks. This is because noise isn't check footsteps but also clothes rustling, armour and weapons clinking and breathing. So, a stealth check is still required even if footsteps are silent.
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Full points for creativity, but I'm not convinced this would work. Sure, if Armeros stays completely still and also doesn't bump into anything - then he'll be more silent than a rogue. But this is like carrying a (weightless but not mass-less) 130 pound, man sized balloon. He's going to bump into something.
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In one of my campaigns, I have a character who isn't stealthy, and so the player asked the following.
" ((Hm, if Armeros uses his armor to cast levitate on himself, could he move silently if someone on the ground pulled him along through the air lol?)) "
Not looking for any response, just wanted to share. This is the first time II've had a player try to get around not being stealthy by doing this specifically.
And explain to the player, and the rest of the party, a few things:
1. Some levitating is NOT silent. They may not make footsteps that can be heard, but any movements by that PC, in armour, while levitated will make noise. You want to give that PC some advantages on Stealth rolls, as a DM that is fine. But it is not some I-win button.
2. That PC is going to be at some massive disadvantages if there is a Surprise attack, or even normal combat in the initial rounds.
Lastly, as a DM, I would say to the player(s), that the Levitate spell explicitly says "The target can move only by pushing or pulling against a fixed object or surface within reach (such as a wall or a ceiling), which allows it to move as if it were climbing". That means that no, balloon PC does not work. The PC is stuck there, unless in contact with a wall or ceiling. which then obliterates any idea of moving silently. Those caveats were put in place to preclude exactly this kind of stuff.
I did think of most of those, things, (though thanks for pointing them out anyway.) but as it is, they didn't even have to move stealthily, though naturally they didn't know that. Also, I think that if the character pulling/pushing the levitator is careful enough, and it's not windy, they wouldn't make much of any noise.
I did think of most of those, things, (though thanks for pointing them out anyway.) but as it is, they didn't even have to move stealthily, though naturally they didn't know that. Also, I think that if the character pulling/pushing the levitator is careful enough, and it's not windy, they wouldn't make much of any noise.
The Levitate spell was designed and worded to avoid this kind of thing. It becomes a poor man's Fly spell, for significantly less cost. Players will use real world physics when it is to their advantage, and ignore those same real world physics when it suits them. The game is about magic, and physics, but the magic trumps physics when the two collide, like in this case.
Next up: The PC that is being levitated uses its momentum to clear a large crevasse. It is a slippery slope when you allow this stuff into your game.
That is a good point. I doubt the player will be abusing the spell like that though. They've been in a number of my games, and I think them a valuable player who knows the rules, and knows when they take something to far, or shouldn't bother asking something. I'd point out that it is partly proved how valuable a player they are by the fact that they are in I believe more than 15 PBP games, though I'm not certain on the number exactly.
I would like to thank you again for pointing this stuff out. I think it's good for DMs to disagree on some things, as it provides them with ways to see certain aspects of the game in a different way, as well as provides players with variety in their games. If everyone DMd the same way, using the same exact rules, not as many people would want to play the game, since ultimately there wouldn't be change from one campaign to another, other than the story.
And explain to the player, and the rest of the party, a few things:
1. Some levitating is NOT silent. They may not make footsteps that can be heard, but any movements by that PC, in armour, while levitated will make noise. You want to give that PC some advantages on Stealth rolls, as a DM that is fine. But it is not some I-win button.
A fair point IMO. Another person likened it to boots of elvenkind with the advantage and I think that's a totally valid ruling.
2. That PC is going to be at some massive disadvantages if there is a Surprise attack, or even normal combat in the initial rounds.
Lastly, as a DM, I would say to the player(s), that the Levitate spell explicitly says "The target can move only by pushing or pulling against a fixed object or surface within reach (such as a wall or a ceiling), which allows it to move as if it were climbing". That means that no, balloon PC does not work. The PC is stuck there, unless in contact with a wall or ceiling. which then obliterates any idea of moving silently. Those caveats were put in place to preclude exactly this kind of stuff.
While a super-strict reading of RAW would suggest the PC could literally only move by pushing/pulling I don't think the balloon tether breaks the RAI. For example, if I understand your argument correctly, this also means that levitated creature cannot be shoved, pushed, or grappled and then moved. So if the party was up against an ancient dragon that wanted to carry off a party member they could just cast levitate and suddenly the dragon can't do that.
Yes it's literally magic but that breaks verisimilitude IMO. (And Tiamat help the dragon is the PC is a warlock with the invocation to cast at will. Because even if the dragon breaks the warlock's concentration that requires part of its multiattack which cannot substitute in grapples so the warlock would just recast it the next turn and remain immovable.)
And as for the PC being at disadvantage in the case of a combat, ending concentration requires no action. So the caster could end concentration as soon as needed and the floating party-member safely floats back down.
The Levitate spell was designed and worded to avoid this kind of thing. It becomes a poor man's Fly spell, for significantly less cost. Players will use real world physics when it is to their advantage, and ignore those same real world physics when it suits them. The game is about magic, and physics, but the magic trumps physics when the two collide, like in this case.
Next up: The PC that is being levitated uses its momentum to clear a large crevasse. It is a slippery slope when you allow this stuff into your game.
Fly is a lot more powerful with ease of movement. So IMO a poor man's fly with a lot more limitations at one slot lower isn't gamebreaking. And for the crevasse scenario if it's a really short one then they're using a 2nd level spell slot to cross something they could likey have thrown a grappling hook or other no-resource method to cross. And if it's a large crevasse then you'd be well-justified to say they can't push the character to a high enough speed for them to overcome air resistance all the way across. In which case now you're dealing with how to get Jimbob out of the 500ft deep crevasse.
I am not aware of any disadvantage to being levitated while in combat. Sure they are limited in how they can move - they would have to be towed into melee if the enemies don't engage. But the spell does not say there are penalties to AC, saves, or attack rolls.
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Given that you can use a second level spell slot to cast enhance ability and just gain unrestricted advantage on all dexterity checks, I don't think there's a balance issue there, but RAW flight (including levitation) does not affect stealth.
I love this. I'm a big fan of player creativity and try to "yes, and" as much as possible with ideas like this. Also, I know this isn't how levitate works but just in my head I'm amused at the idea of a fighter in heavy armor floating off like a helium balloon because the rogue accidentally let go of the rope.
Also, I know this isn't how levitate works but just in my head I'm amused at the idea of a fighter in heavy armor floating off like a helium balloon because the rogue accidentally let go of the rope.
That would certainly make for a memorable moment, even if the character levitating could just float down.
Well, I'd say you're right about that, but they are walking down an open road.
Well in that case, forget I said anything =D
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
In one of my campaigns, I have a character who isn't stealthy, and so the player asked the following.
"
((Hm, if Armeros uses his armor to cast levitate on himself, could he move silently if someone on the ground pulled him along through the air lol?))
"
Just wanted to share, as I think this is a creative way to get around not being stealthy.
To me, it's a creative use of an ability they can access. I would allow it. It varies by DM though.
I think it was a good bit of creativity, I would definitely allow it. Though a weird scenario would be if they went over a pit trap, could the person hang on to the levitated one?
TO DEFEND: THIS IS THE PACT.
BUT WHEN LIFE LOSES ITS VALUE,
AND IS TAKEN FOR NAUGHT-
THEN THE PACT IS, TO AVENGE.
I would allow it.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
IMO depends on the weight. The spell specifies up to 500 lbs so if their combined weight doesn't exceed that, sure. But if they weigh more than that because they've looted everything including the doors from the dungeon then you're gonna start seeing a descent into the pit trap if you try it.
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It's no different than wearing boots of elvenkind, which also makes footsteps silent. The result is advantage on stealth checks. This is because noise isn't check footsteps but also clothes rustling, armour and weapons clinking and breathing. So, a stealth check is still required even if footsteps are silent.
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Look, whatever gets the players to do more than just run in and bonk things. I would grant advantage on their stealth check.
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Full points for creativity, but I'm not convinced this would work. Sure, if Armeros stays completely still and also doesn't bump into anything - then he'll be more silent than a rogue. But this is like carrying a (weightless but not mass-less) 130 pound, man sized balloon. He's going to bump into something.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Well, I'd say you're right about that, but they are walking down an open road.
And explain to the player, and the rest of the party, a few things:
1. Some levitating is NOT silent. They may not make footsteps that can be heard, but any movements by that PC, in armour, while levitated will make noise. You want to give that PC some advantages on Stealth rolls, as a DM that is fine. But it is not some I-win button.
2. That PC is going to be at some massive disadvantages if there is a Surprise attack, or even normal combat in the initial rounds.
Lastly, as a DM, I would say to the player(s), that the Levitate spell explicitly says "The target can move only by pushing or pulling against a fixed object or surface within reach (such as a wall or a ceiling), which allows it to move as if it were climbing". That means that no, balloon PC does not work. The PC is stuck there, unless in contact with a wall or ceiling. which then obliterates any idea of moving silently. Those caveats were put in place to preclude exactly this kind of stuff.
I did think of most of those, things, (though thanks for pointing them out anyway.) but as it is, they didn't even have to move stealthily, though naturally they didn't know that.
Also, I think that if the character pulling/pushing the levitator is careful enough, and it's not windy, they wouldn't make much of any noise.
The Levitate spell was designed and worded to avoid this kind of thing. It becomes a poor man's Fly spell, for significantly less cost. Players will use real world physics when it is to their advantage, and ignore those same real world physics when it suits them. The game is about magic, and physics, but the magic trumps physics when the two collide, like in this case.
Next up: The PC that is being levitated uses its momentum to clear a large crevasse. It is a slippery slope when you allow this stuff into your game.
That is a good point. I doubt the player will be abusing the spell like that though.
They've been in a number of my games, and I think them a valuable player who knows the rules, and knows when they take something to far, or shouldn't bother asking something.
I'd point out that it is partly proved how valuable a player they are by the fact that they are in I believe more than 15 PBP games, though I'm not certain on the number exactly.
I would like to thank you again for pointing this stuff out. I think it's good for DMs to disagree on some things, as it provides them with ways to see certain aspects of the game in a different way, as well as provides players with variety in their games.
If everyone DMd the same way, using the same exact rules, not as many people would want to play the game, since ultimately there wouldn't be change from one campaign to another, other than the story.
A fair point IMO. Another person likened it to boots of elvenkind with the advantage and I think that's a totally valid ruling.
While a super-strict reading of RAW would suggest the PC could literally only move by pushing/pulling I don't think the balloon tether breaks the RAI. For example, if I understand your argument correctly, this also means that levitated creature cannot be shoved, pushed, or grappled and then moved. So if the party was up against an ancient dragon that wanted to carry off a party member they could just cast levitate and suddenly the dragon can't do that.
Yes it's literally magic but that breaks verisimilitude IMO. (And Tiamat help the dragon is the PC is a warlock with the invocation to cast at will. Because even if the dragon breaks the warlock's concentration that requires part of its multiattack which cannot substitute in grapples so the warlock would just recast it the next turn and remain immovable.)
And as for the PC being at disadvantage in the case of a combat, ending concentration requires no action. So the caster could end concentration as soon as needed and the floating party-member safely floats back down.
Fly is a lot more powerful with ease of movement. So IMO a poor man's fly with a lot more limitations at one slot lower isn't gamebreaking. And for the crevasse scenario if it's a really short one then they're using a 2nd level spell slot to cross something they could likey have thrown a grappling hook or other no-resource method to cross. And if it's a large crevasse then you'd be well-justified to say they can't push the character to a high enough speed for them to overcome air resistance all the way across. In which case now you're dealing with how to get Jimbob out of the 500ft deep crevasse.
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I am not aware of any disadvantage to being levitated while in combat. Sure they are limited in how they can move - they would have to be towed into melee if the enemies don't engage. But the spell does not say there are penalties to AC, saves, or attack rolls.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Given that you can use a second level spell slot to cast enhance ability and just gain unrestricted advantage on all dexterity checks, I don't think there's a balance issue there, but RAW flight (including levitation) does not affect stealth.
I love this. I'm a big fan of player creativity and try to "yes, and" as much as possible with ideas like this. Also, I know this isn't how levitate works but just in my head I'm amused at the idea of a fighter in heavy armor floating off like a helium balloon because the rogue accidentally let go of the rope.
That would certainly make for a memorable moment, even if the character levitating could just float down.
Well in that case, forget I said anything =D
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
If there is disadvantage due to armor, keep in mind that the disadvantage applies even when the armored person is stationary.