I doubt that they even intended to truly retire, it's only been two months and both of them got jobs at the same time with the same company.
Personally, I think they probably wanted a smaller gig. The dynamics will be very different, probably more creative input as well.
As someone who wrote a piece of software 20 years ago, and has recently released a new version of it, and maintained the old one all through that period, I can totally see the "Now that we've gotten a fresh start for someone else to work on, I'm going to look at other things".
I would be unsurprised if (at least for Chris Perkins) this is more of a "brain dump us for a few years with all your wisdom before you retire for good". He's approaching 60, and has been doing the TTRPG thing for the better part of 40 years of that time. He's got a wealth of knowledge that any company would be eager to hold onto, and WOTC has gotten the best out of him, but now he's giving that to other people.
He was repeatedly clear in interviews and posts that he wishes D&D the best. This is an opportunity for him to make the TTRPG mainstream more diverse, which is something it really does need.
Congrats to both of them. They did a great job at D&D and I'm sure they'll do a great job at Darrington. They had gone about as far as they could at WotC, so the way I see it is like their career had made it up to Level 20 at WotC. And sure, it's fun to reach Level 20 and it's fun to play a Level 20 character, but eventually you begin to yearn for the challenges of the lower levels again. Now I'm not saying that Darrington is the equivalent to Level 1, not at all. But it is a much smaller company with much greater agility, and much more direct input from its creatives than the corporate behemoth that owned WotC. And Darrington keeps fearlessly branching out into comics, and novels, and graphic novels, and the animated series, and merch, and a range of RPGs, and live shows, and CR has their own charity and an enormous groundswell of support from their followers.
I'm sure Chris and Jeremy will be quite happy at Darrington, and the company will benefit greatly from their experience and expertise. And sure, Darrington and CR are still a David to D&D's Goliath, but I hope WotC and Hasbro are paying attention. Because even with the recent release of the 5.5 edition, the output from WotC is starting to look like a trickle compared to the output over at Darrington. Sure, I'll keep playing D&D because I love D&D. But I'm curious to also try Daggerheart, even if only to get some new homebrew ideas.
DP sure have a lot of money from *somewhere* to just hire 2 big names. It can't have come from just the Kickstarter & merch sales.
& no one mentions DP's licensing agreement, & all the pitfalls within, only that they're "pwning" DND.
Has anyone else noticed the trend of ex-WotC employees *suddenly* being free from endless amounts of scrutiny if they end up on another "team" in the TTRPG scene?
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DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
DP sure have a lot of money from *somewhere* to just hire 2 big names. It can't have come from just the Kickstarter & merch sales.
& no one mentions DP's licensing agreement, & all the pitfalls within, only that they're "pwning" DND.
Has anyone else noticed the trend of ex-WotC employees *suddenly* being free from endless amounts of scrutiny if they end up on another "team" in the TTRPG scene?
Daggerheart is sold out almost everywhere, so even if they took on a new investor on that basis, they'd have some cash to splash.
And reading Reddit, there's a large sentiment of "Still happy he's not destroying 'my' Forgotten Realms" etc, so I don't know that that's true.
DP sure have a lot of money from *somewhere* to just hire 2 big names. It can't have come from just the Kickstarter & merch sales.
Twitch Youtube Merch (clothes, alcohol, accessories, dice, etc) Sponsors Brand deals Amazon (Multiple animated series) Book sales (D&D books, novels, comics, artbooks, etc) Tabletop games through Darrington Press (not limited to the already-sold-out Daggerheart - they have multiple games, even another TTRPG [Candela Obscura]) Beacon Memberships Paid events such as live shows, comic con appearances, and so on.
& no one mentions DP's licensing agreement, & all the pitfalls within, only that they're "pwning" DND.
What pitfalls? It's similar to the D&D 5e licensing only better. Where D&D has strict limits on where you can post things and publish them (such as needing to use DMsGuild or DriveThruRPG for some content), in Daggerheart you can build anything from the SRD and sell it, anywhere, and don't have to pay DP anything. It's easier and freer for creators than D&D is.
Has anyone else noticed the trend of ex-WotC employees *suddenly* being free from endless amounts of scrutiny if they end up on another "team" in the TTRPG scene?
No, I haven't. What other ex-WotC employees that were under "endless amounts of scrutiny" (even though Crawford and Perkins weren't) moving to other TTRPGs and suddenly being free of it? Can you provide examples of this endless scrutiny and which employees?
-
It feels like your post is trying to imply some conspiracy but I just don't see it.
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Although a huge fan of Critical Role, I have zero interest in Daggerheart. Nevertheless it is a huge coup for Cr to poach the two best known designers from WoTC. And I do believe it was a poach, not a 'retire then apply around and just happen to end up at the same place'. They likely knew they had the jobs at Darrington before they left WoTC.
I just hope that Campaign 4 is still D&D, and not Daggerheart - because if it is DH, I won't be following. Still, I applaud them for their successful poach of Crawford and Perkins, and I can't think of a better company for them to be involved with.
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Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Although a huge fan of Critical Role, I have zero interest in Daggerheart. Nevertheless it is a huge coup for Cr to poach the two best known designers from WoTC. And I do believe it was a poach, not a 'retire then apply around and just happen to end up at the same place'. They likely knew they had the jobs at Darrington before they left WoTC.
I just hope that Campaign 4 is still D&D, and not Daggerheart - because if it is DH, I won't be following. Still, I applaud them for their successful poach of Crawford and Perkins, and I can't think of a better company for them to be involved with.
You are not the only one who feels that way about campaign four possibly moving to Daggerheart. I personally hope they do move to Daggerheart to really promote it, but it isn't certain, I don't think. Their miniseries has half the viewership that their D&D games do at 6k. It might be because it is a non-Exandria miniseries, which has a major dedicated following in itself.
If they do move to DH though, from one critter to another, I hope you don't stay away.
Critical Role as a show is essentially theatre, it's about interactions, story, voice acting, and live shenanigans; those are the best parts of that show, its what gets people to tune in and follow along (like a tv show). Everytime they get into combat, however, its like watching someone get a root canal; all the momentum instantly dies and it swallows time and is almost always at the center of every controversy the show has. D&D combat is too slow and too complex, which makes it hard to follow when watching a show like Critical Role. I would argue it's also boring, unbalanced, and repetitive.
Using Daggerheart instead of D&D would fix quite literally the biggest problem their series has, dealing with overbearing and slow tactical combat rules that effectively kill the momentum of the show.
They might lose a portion of their audience, but it makes a hell of a lot more sense for them to use Daggerheart for campaign 4 than it does D&D. I mean, you created a system specifically so that you could run games the way you want to run games, that fits your group, your style of play and is your product to promote. Now that you've released it, you're going to go back to promoting D&D? I seriously doubt they would do that. Daggerheart and Critical Role at this point are synonymous concepts. I think by the time the campaign 4 information starts being more solid, using Daggerheart instead of D&D will be a forgone conclusion.
Daggerheart's success and critical roles' future, I think, are unavoidably linked, but I agree that Daggerheart is not a challenge to D&D as a system; it's a challenge to D&D as a playstyle. It's a bit more fundamental, and I think Daggerheart will act as a sort of new grassroots movement in what people want out of RPG's in general. The days of slow, methodical, tactical combat with squares and verbose combat architecture is something people have complained about for a very long time. The idea that combat and story can be the same thing and work the same way in an RPG is not a new concept, but in the past RPG's that took this approach did it to an extreme which resulted in combat being irrelevant and sort of not part of the game. Became instead a game where combat didn't matter, rather than being part of the story. I think Daggerhearts design shows that, not only can story and combat be the same thing, but it can be integrated smoothly and that is not something I have ever seen in an RPG and I think it's what makes Daggerheart such an exciting system.
It does however require people to do the one thing that D&D players are infamously unwilling to do which is to try an RPG that is not D&D without the expectation of it being "just like D&D". So far historically, the only game that has ever challenged D&D on any level that wasn't a D&D clone is Call of Cathullu.
The thing about Daggerheart is that it is a fantasy game, it functions and serves the same audience and it's supported/created by one of the biggest influencers for D&D players. Those factors are going to have a lot of impact. Not to mention that it literally costs 75% of the price of D&D and is a product of far superior quality compared to anything D&D has produced in 50 years.
It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out, but if anything, Wizard of the Coast is going to have to seriously step up their game.
Critical Role as a show is essentially theatre, it's about interactions, story, voice acting, and live shenanigans; those are the best parts of that show, its what gets people to tune in and follow along (like a tv show). Everytime they get into combat, however, its like watching someone get a root canal; all the momentum instantly dies and it swallows time and is almost always at the center of every controversy the show has. D&D combat is too slow and too complex, which makes it hard to follow when watching a show like Critical Role. I would argue it's also boring, unbalanced, and repetitive.
Using Daggerheart instead of D&D would fix quite literally the biggest problem their series has, dealing with overbearing and slow tactical combat rules that effectively kill the momentum of the show.
They might lose a portion of their audience, but it makes a hell of a lot more sense for them to use Daggerheart for campaign 4 than it does D&D. I mean, you created a system specifically so that you could run games the way you want to run games, that fits your group, your style of play and is your product to promote. Now that you've released it, you're going to go back to promoting D&D? I seriously doubt they would do that. Daggerheart and Critical Role at this point are synonymous concepts. I think by the time the campaign 4 information starts being more solid, using Daggerheart instead of D&D will be a forgone conclusion.
Daggerheart's success and critical roles' future, I think, are unavoidably linked, but I agree that Daggerheart is not a challenge to D&D as a system; it's a challenge to D&D as a playstyle. It's a bit more fundamental, and I think Daggerheart will act as a sort of new grassroots movement in what people want out of RPG's in general. The days of slow, methodical, tactical combat with squares and verbose combat architecture is something people have complained about for a very long time. The idea that combat and story can be the same thing and work the same way in an RPG is not a new concept, but in the past RPG's that took this approach did it to an extreme which resulted in combat being irrelevant and sort of not part of the game. Became instead a game where combat didn't matter, rather than being part of the story. I think Daggerhearts design shows that, not only can story and combat be the same thing, but it can be integrated smoothly and that is not something I have ever seen in an RPG and I think it's what makes Daggerheart such an exciting system.
It does however require people to do the one thing that D&D players are infamously unwilling to do which is to try an RPG that is not D&D without the expectation of it being "just like D&D". So far historically, the only game that has ever challenged D&D on any level that wasn't a D&D clone is Call of Cathullu.
The thing about Daggerheart is that it is a fantasy game, it functions and serves the same audience and it's supported/created by one of the biggest influencers for D&D players. Those factors are going to have a lot of impact. Not to mention that it literally costs 75% of the price of D&D and is a product of far superior quality compared to anything D&D has produced in 50 years.
It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out, but if anything, Wizard of the Coast is going to have to seriously step up their game.
There haven't exactly been a shortage of prior narratively driven RPG's of one genre or another, and while several have carved out comfortable niches I've yet to see one that's come anywhere close to edging out D&D. If you like it better, good for you have fun. But if you're just looking to cackle about how it's going to stick it to those so-and-so's at D&D/WotC, I wouldn't hold my breath. Can't we just be happy that a product is getting a boost without trying to frame it as a tear down of someone else?
I suspect you’re vastly overestimating the lasting impact ST or CR have on sustaining D&D’s popularity, and the point about tariffs is going to hit a small startup operation a lot more than a major company in the same field.
I don't think CT or ST moving away from D&D or ending will make much difference anymore. The main thing they did was raise awareness...but both of them have done their part in that and aren't, to my knowledge, growing at such a pace that what they're doing now will have much affect on the future in terms of D&D. That principle is pretty why ST is ending - its main job is to attract new subscribers to Netflix, and it's now flattening in doing that. The dynamic for D&D will be similar. CR likewise.
They probably did help 5e's success, quite a bit, but that role had already ended. The extant content for each will achieve pretty much the same recruitment power as any new series. By the time you get to season 3, you've already been tempted into trying 5e or you likely never will - at least not in response to those shows.
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Hey folks, try to keep the thread on topic or I'll lock it. We acknowledge that the topic of Perkins' and Crawford's move will involve some discussion of the trajectory of D&D and the relationship with CR, but this is not the place to wildly speculate and fly off-topic.
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The addition of these two great creative minds is well-timed. CR just released playtests for Fighter and Warlock classes, which I am sure Crawford and Perkins will have some input for.
It is going to be death by a thousand cuts. D&D has gone through this before
This. I don't think D&D is suddenly going to disappear because Daggerheart is released, but I do think this event, along with the many others, is going to put Wizards of the Coast on its heels, and they will need to act in response. The question is how they respond. If its just going to be a continuation of their current strategy, they are definitely not going to make it. D&D is not invulnerable; it's come close to permanent death on a number of occasions and it's almost always been because of a lack of action, but in the past, it has always found a way to make a comeback.
Personally, I would like to see Wizards of the Coast do something big, show us the real power of the franchise, but re-releasing a 10-year-old edition of the game is definitely not it. It landed so flat, it quite literally had zero impact. About the most lackluster event in D&D history.
As someone who wrote a piece of software 20 years ago, and has recently released a new version of it, and maintained the old one all through that period, I can totally see the "Now that we've gotten a fresh start for someone else to work on, I'm going to look at other things".
I would be unsurprised if (at least for Chris Perkins) this is more of a "brain dump us for a few years with all your wisdom before you retire for good". He's approaching 60, and has been doing the TTRPG thing for the better part of 40 years of that time. He's got a wealth of knowledge that any company would be eager to hold onto, and WOTC has gotten the best out of him, but now he's giving that to other people.
He was repeatedly clear in interviews and posts that he wishes D&D the best. This is an opportunity for him to make the TTRPG mainstream more diverse, which is something it really does need.
Congrats to both of them. They did a great job at D&D and I'm sure they'll do a great job at Darrington. They had gone about as far as they could at WotC, so the way I see it is like their career had made it up to Level 20 at WotC. And sure, it's fun to reach Level 20 and it's fun to play a Level 20 character, but eventually you begin to yearn for the challenges of the lower levels again. Now I'm not saying that Darrington is the equivalent to Level 1, not at all. But it is a much smaller company with much greater agility, and much more direct input from its creatives than the corporate behemoth that owned WotC. And Darrington keeps fearlessly branching out into comics, and novels, and graphic novels, and the animated series, and merch, and a range of RPGs, and live shows, and CR has their own charity and an enormous groundswell of support from their followers.
I'm sure Chris and Jeremy will be quite happy at Darrington, and the company will benefit greatly from their experience and expertise. And sure, Darrington and CR are still a David to D&D's Goliath, but I hope WotC and Hasbro are paying attention. Because even with the recent release of the 5.5 edition, the output from WotC is starting to look like a trickle compared to the output over at Darrington. Sure, I'll keep playing D&D because I love D&D. But I'm curious to also try Daggerheart, even if only to get some new homebrew ideas.
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DP sure have a lot of money from *somewhere* to just hire 2 big names. It can't have come from just the Kickstarter & merch sales.
& no one mentions DP's licensing agreement, & all the pitfalls within, only that they're "pwning" DND.
Has anyone else noticed the trend of ex-WotC employees *suddenly* being free from endless amounts of scrutiny if they end up on another "team" in the TTRPG scene?
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Daggerheart is sold out almost everywhere, so even if they took on a new investor on that basis, they'd have some cash to splash.
And reading Reddit, there's a large sentiment of "Still happy he's not destroying 'my' Forgotten Realms" etc, so I don't know that that's true.
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Tabletop games through Darrington Press (not limited to the already-sold-out Daggerheart - they have multiple games, even another TTRPG [Candela Obscura])
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What pitfalls? It's similar to the D&D 5e licensing only better. Where D&D has strict limits on where you can post things and publish them (such as needing to use DMsGuild or DriveThruRPG for some content), in Daggerheart you can build anything from the SRD and sell it, anywhere, and don't have to pay DP anything. It's easier and freer for creators than D&D is.
No, I haven't. What other ex-WotC employees that were under "endless amounts of scrutiny" (even though Crawford and Perkins weren't) moving to other TTRPGs and suddenly being free of it? Can you provide examples of this endless scrutiny and which employees?
-
It feels like your post is trying to imply some conspiracy but I just don't see it.
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I'm actually surprised that it took them this long. It seemed like that corporate noose has been tightening on the IP for some time now.
Given how long the 5.24 was in the making, I'm sure they saw it as "The final big thing", and thus were waiting.
Although a huge fan of Critical Role, I have zero interest in Daggerheart. Nevertheless it is a huge coup for Cr to poach the two best known designers from WoTC. And I do believe it was a poach, not a 'retire then apply around and just happen to end up at the same place'. They likely knew they had the jobs at Darrington before they left WoTC.
I just hope that Campaign 4 is still D&D, and not Daggerheart - because if it is DH, I won't be following. Still, I applaud them for their successful poach of Crawford and Perkins, and I can't think of a better company for them to be involved with.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
You are not the only one who feels that way about campaign four possibly moving to Daggerheart. I personally hope they do move to Daggerheart to really promote it, but it isn't certain, I don't think. Their miniseries has half the viewership that their D&D games do at 6k. It might be because it is a non-Exandria miniseries, which has a major dedicated following in itself.
If they do move to DH though, from one critter to another, I hope you don't stay away.
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I saw his tweet late yesterday. It hurts.
Critical Role as a show is essentially theatre, it's about interactions, story, voice acting, and live shenanigans; those are the best parts of that show, its what gets people to tune in and follow along (like a tv show). Everytime they get into combat, however, its like watching someone get a root canal; all the momentum instantly dies and it swallows time and is almost always at the center of every controversy the show has. D&D combat is too slow and too complex, which makes it hard to follow when watching a show like Critical Role. I would argue it's also boring, unbalanced, and repetitive.
Using Daggerheart instead of D&D would fix quite literally the biggest problem their series has, dealing with overbearing and slow tactical combat rules that effectively kill the momentum of the show.
They might lose a portion of their audience, but it makes a hell of a lot more sense for them to use Daggerheart for campaign 4 than it does D&D. I mean, you created a system specifically so that you could run games the way you want to run games, that fits your group, your style of play and is your product to promote. Now that you've released it, you're going to go back to promoting D&D? I seriously doubt they would do that. Daggerheart and Critical Role at this point are synonymous concepts. I think by the time the campaign 4 information starts being more solid, using Daggerheart instead of D&D will be a forgone conclusion.
Daggerheart's success and critical roles' future, I think, are unavoidably linked, but I agree that Daggerheart is not a challenge to D&D as a system; it's a challenge to D&D as a playstyle. It's a bit more fundamental, and I think Daggerheart will act as a sort of new grassroots movement in what people want out of RPG's in general. The days of slow, methodical, tactical combat with squares and verbose combat architecture is something people have complained about for a very long time. The idea that combat and story can be the same thing and work the same way in an RPG is not a new concept, but in the past RPG's that took this approach did it to an extreme which resulted in combat being irrelevant and sort of not part of the game. Became instead a game where combat didn't matter, rather than being part of the story. I think Daggerhearts design shows that, not only can story and combat be the same thing, but it can be integrated smoothly and that is not something I have ever seen in an RPG and I think it's what makes Daggerheart such an exciting system.
It does however require people to do the one thing that D&D players are infamously unwilling to do which is to try an RPG that is not D&D without the expectation of it being "just like D&D". So far historically, the only game that has ever challenged D&D on any level that wasn't a D&D clone is Call of Cathullu.
The thing about Daggerheart is that it is a fantasy game, it functions and serves the same audience and it's supported/created by one of the biggest influencers for D&D players. Those factors are going to have a lot of impact. Not to mention that it literally costs 75% of the price of D&D and is a product of far superior quality compared to anything D&D has produced in 50 years.
It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out, but if anything, Wizard of the Coast is going to have to seriously step up their game.
I’m sad about that, he’s been the face of the brand for the last few years
There haven't exactly been a shortage of prior narratively driven RPG's of one genre or another, and while several have carved out comfortable niches I've yet to see one that's come anywhere close to edging out D&D. If you like it better, good for you have fun. But if you're just looking to cackle about how it's going to stick it to those so-and-so's at D&D/WotC, I wouldn't hold my breath. Can't we just be happy that a product is getting a boost without trying to frame it as a tear down of someone else?
I suspect you’re vastly overestimating the lasting impact ST or CR have on sustaining D&D’s popularity, and the point about tariffs is going to hit a small startup operation a lot more than a major company in the same field.
I don't think CT or ST moving away from D&D or ending will make much difference anymore. The main thing they did was raise awareness...but both of them have done their part in that and aren't, to my knowledge, growing at such a pace that what they're doing now will have much affect on the future in terms of D&D. That principle is pretty why ST is ending - its main job is to attract new subscribers to Netflix, and it's now flattening in doing that. The dynamic for D&D will be similar. CR likewise.
They probably did help 5e's success, quite a bit, but that role had already ended. The extant content for each will achieve pretty much the same recruitment power as any new series. By the time you get to season 3, you've already been tempted into trying 5e or you likely never will - at least not in response to those shows.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
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D&D StaffHey folks, try to keep the thread on topic or I'll lock it. We acknowledge that the topic of Perkins' and Crawford's move will involve some discussion of the trajectory of D&D and the relationship with CR, but this is not the place to wildly speculate and fly off-topic.
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The addition of these two great creative minds is well-timed. CR just released playtests for Fighter and Warlock classes, which I am sure Crawford and Perkins will have some input for.
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Ugh, this one stings 😞
Now who will do the UA interviews?
This. I don't think D&D is suddenly going to disappear because Daggerheart is released, but I do think this event, along with the many others, is going to put Wizards of the Coast on its heels, and they will need to act in response. The question is how they respond. If its just going to be a continuation of their current strategy, they are definitely not going to make it. D&D is not invulnerable; it's come close to permanent death on a number of occasions and it's almost always been because of a lack of action, but in the past, it has always found a way to make a comeback.
Personally, I would like to see Wizards of the Coast do something big, show us the real power of the franchise, but re-releasing a 10-year-old edition of the game is definitely not it. It landed so flat, it quite literally had zero impact. About the most lackluster event in D&D history.