The instant death due to massive damage rule, in my experience, is mostly only an issue at very low levels. There are a bunch of CR 1 monsters that can feasibly critical hit for enough damage to instantly kill a wounded PC, or even from full health on a class with a smaller hit die type (at the high end of things, a giant spider averages 26 on a critical hit). However, this drops off rapidly with higher level, because there aren't a lot of higher CR monsters which deliver all their damage in one massive hit, and PC hit points scale faster than monster damage anyway (typically a level 5 has about 4x the hp of a level 1, while a CR 5 has about 3x the damage of a CR 1).
The thing is, high level PCs have a lot more access to raise dead type abilities, which means from a gameplay perspective it should be fine to one-hit-kill higher level PCs (they'll get better), whereas doing that at low levels probably means "time for a new PC".
So, has anyone experimented with alternative massive damage rules, that make it more likely at higher levels and less likely at low levels? My tentative thought was something like "every 10 points of overflow damage is one failed death save, and 30 points of overflow damage is instant death", but it's not something I've actually tried, so I was wondering if other people have experimented with variants?
The Instant Death only covers death by lots of damage, and there are a lot more ways for characters to die, especially at higher levels as creatures and monsters have more abilities.
Take the Swarm of Rot Grubs that can kill without dealing enough damage to cover the entire hit point pool beyond zero.
I understand what you are getting at, and yes, the players get stronger as they level up, understandably.
even at low levels, just because the Characters might not have access to the spells needed to bring someone back, doesn't mean that the nearest town Cleric can't cast True Resurrection on a dead character.
If you are playing in a game, it is your story to help create, and working with your DM, there are LOTs of options :)
Cheers!
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Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty. Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers; Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas. Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
Typically, a level 1 party won't have the 25,000gp to pay for a True Resurrection spell to be cast. Even Revivify is a steep challenge. Rot Grubs, at 1/2 CR, are something a low level party could encounter. Pantagruel's point remains: death by massive damage is pretty much only a threat at low levels, and that's also the sole domain where death itself remains a major obstacle.
As for the question itself - not really a house rule per se, but when resurrection spells come online and feasible, my monsters become more likely to deliver a coup-de-grace. Before then, it's kind of a ****** move (if players are attached to their characters at any rate - in dungeons crawls where it's just a matter of rolling a new character, I'm more bloodthirsty), but at that point, my monsters get fed up of playing whack-a-mole and decide to finish them. The gold setback is the player's consequence for dropping.
Not really what you're after, but it's what I do. My concern with your proposal is that it does the opposite - at L6, they may lose a single Death Save. A Tarrasque against a very low HP PC on the other hand could easily instakill.
Perhaps instead a Con Saving Throw? If the monster KOs you, do a Con Save, it you fail, you get DS fail, fail 5+ and you get 2 DS fails and +10 instant death? I'm not sure how you'd set the DC fairly for that though.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
The Instant Death only covers death by lots of damage, and there are a lot more ways for characters to die, especially at higher levels as creatures and monsters have more abilities.
Take the Swarm of Rot Grubs that can kill without dealing enough damage to cover the entire hit point pool beyond zero.
I understand what you are getting at, and yes, the players get stronger as they level up, understandably.
even at low levels, just because the Characters might not have access to the spells needed to bring someone back, doesn't mean that the nearest town Cleric can't cast True Resurrection on a dead character.
If you are playing in a game, it is your story to help create, and working with your DM, there are LOTs of options :)
Cheers!
What "Instant Death" are you referring? Is this some optional rule somewhere?
Massive damage can kill you instantly. When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum.
For example, a cleric with a maximum of 12 hit points currently has 6 hit points. If she takes 18 damage from an attack, she is reduced to 0 hit points, but 12 damage remains. Because the remaining damage equals her hit point maximum, the cleric dies.
Massive Damage. When damage reduces a character to 0 Hit Points and damage remains, the character dies if the remainder equals or exceeds their Hit Point maximum. For example, if your character has a Hit Point maximum of 12, currently has 6 Hit Points, and takes 18 damage, the character drops to 0 Hit Points, but 12 damage remains. The character then dies, since 12 equals their Hit Point maximum.
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🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Not really what you're after, but it's what I do. My concern with your proposal is that it does the opposite - at L6, they may lose a single Death Save. A Tarrasque against a very low HP PC on the other hand could easily instakill.
I'm not sure I understand your point. It's not that I want instant death to be common, that's what things like AD&D death at 0 or 3e death at -10 are for. I just think it should be more common at higher levels, less so at lower levels, because at 3rd level death is a big deal, whereas at 13th level it's an inconvenience.
Perhaps instead a Con Saving Throw? If the monster KOs you, do a Con Save, it you fail, you get DS fail, fail 5+ and you get 2 DS fails and +10 instant death? I'm not sure how you'd set the DC fairly for that though.
Well, I'd probably avoid the +5/+10 as being very swingy (though you could decide that's a feature), but you could easily incorporate a Con save -- say, DC 5 + excess damage, failure is +1 failed death save, failure by 10 is +2, failure by 20 is just dead.
I suppose you could house rule a sliding 'unconscious damage' scale. Characters 1-5 instant death is full hit points in the negative, levels 6-10 it's 75%, levels 11-15 its' 50% or something like that. Since HP are meant to represent more than pure physical health (to some degree they're also stamina, will to live, etc.) you could say that gaining levels doesn't do as much to increase how tough/durable a character's body is, since those other things don't apply to an unconscious character.
This also feels a little bit like it ties in to my 'reattaching the soul is difficult and delicate' house rule that only allows a character to be resurrected or revivified once.
The thing is, high level PCs have a lot more access to raise dead type abilities, which means from a gameplay perspective it should be fine to one-hit-kill higher level PCs (they'll get better), whereas doing that at low levels probably means "time for a new PC".
Maybe it's just the way we play, but this has never been an issue for us. If someone goes down, it's not "we can just raise them," it's "how are we going to win this battle?" It's very easy to death spiral when people start dropping, and the tension around that is enough to get us sitting up straight and digging deep into our sheets to try to pull out a miracle.
But we also rarely opt for resurrection anyway. If it was a good death, we let it stand. In general I tend to gravitate towards the "let the people decide" options - death can be permanent if you want it to be, but who am I to prevent others from an easy rez if they would be really upset to lose their character?
Massive damage can kill you instantly. When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum.
For example, a cleric with a maximum of 12 hit points currently has 6 hit points. If she takes 18 damage from an attack, she is reduced to 0 hit points, but 12 damage remains. Because the remaining damage equals her hit point maximum, the cleric dies.
Massive Damage. When damage reduces a character to 0 Hit Points and damage remains, the character dies if the remainder equals or exceeds their Hit Point maximum. For example, if your character has a Hit Point maximum of 12, currently has 6 Hit Points, and takes 18 damage, the character drops to 0 Hit Points, but 12 damage remains. The character then dies, since 12 equals their Hit Point maximum.
Oh it's just normal death. I have never heard anyone use those terms before. 🤷🏿♂️
The instant death due to massive damage rule, in my experience, is mostly only an issue at very low levels. There are a bunch of CR 1 monsters that can feasibly critical hit for enough damage to instantly kill a wounded PC, or even from full health on a class with a smaller hit die type (at the high end of things, a giant spider averages 26 on a critical hit). However, this drops off rapidly with higher level, because there aren't a lot of higher CR monsters which deliver all their damage in one massive hit, and PC hit points scale faster than monster damage anyway (typically a level 5 has about 4x the hp of a level 1, while a CR 5 has about 3x the damage of a CR 1).
The thing is, high level PCs have a lot more access to raise dead type abilities, which means from a gameplay perspective it should be fine to one-hit-kill higher level PCs (they'll get better), whereas doing that at low levels probably means "time for a new PC".
So, has anyone experimented with alternative massive damage rules, that make it more likely at higher levels and less likely at low levels? My tentative thought was something like "every 10 points of overflow damage is one failed death save, and 30 points of overflow damage is instant death", but it's not something I've actually tried, so I was wondering if other people have experimented with variants?
Greetings Pantagruel666,
I see where you are coming from on this.
The Instant Death only covers death by lots of damage, and there are a lot more ways for characters to die, especially at higher levels as creatures and monsters have more abilities.
Take the Swarm of Rot Grubs that can kill without dealing enough damage to cover the entire hit point pool beyond zero.
I understand what you are getting at, and yes, the players get stronger as they level up, understandably.
even at low levels, just because the Characters might not have access to the spells needed to bring someone back, doesn't mean that the nearest town Cleric can't cast True Resurrection on a dead character.
If you are playing in a game, it is your story to help create, and working with your DM, there are LOTs of options :)
Cheers!
Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty.
Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers;
Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas.
Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
Typically, a level 1 party won't have the 25,000gp to pay for a True Resurrection spell to be cast. Even Revivify is a steep challenge. Rot Grubs, at 1/2 CR, are something a low level party could encounter. Pantagruel's point remains: death by massive damage is pretty much only a threat at low levels, and that's also the sole domain where death itself remains a major obstacle.
As for the question itself - not really a house rule per se, but when resurrection spells come online and feasible, my monsters become more likely to deliver a coup-de-grace. Before then, it's kind of a ****** move (if players are attached to their characters at any rate - in dungeons crawls where it's just a matter of rolling a new character, I'm more bloodthirsty), but at that point, my monsters get fed up of playing whack-a-mole and decide to finish them. The gold setback is the player's consequence for dropping.
Not really what you're after, but it's what I do. My concern with your proposal is that it does the opposite - at L6, they may lose a single Death Save. A Tarrasque against a very low HP PC on the other hand could easily instakill.
Perhaps instead a Con Saving Throw? If the monster KOs you, do a Con Save, it you fail, you get DS fail, fail 5+ and you get 2 DS fails and +10 instant death? I'm not sure how you'd set the DC fairly for that though.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
What "Instant Death" are you referring? Is this some optional rule somewhere?
it's a standard rule that's been in the PHB and the Free rules since the 2014 edition.
2014 Version - Instant Death:
2024 Version - Instant Death / Massive Damage:
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
I'm not sure I understand your point. It's not that I want instant death to be common, that's what things like AD&D death at 0 or 3e death at -10 are for. I just think it should be more common at higher levels, less so at lower levels, because at 3rd level death is a big deal, whereas at 13th level it's an inconvenience.
Well, I'd probably avoid the +5/+10 as being very swingy (though you could decide that's a feature), but you could easily incorporate a Con save -- say, DC 5 + excess damage, failure is +1 failed death save, failure by 10 is +2, failure by 20 is just dead.
I suppose you could house rule a sliding 'unconscious damage' scale. Characters 1-5 instant death is full hit points in the negative, levels 6-10 it's 75%, levels 11-15 its' 50% or something like that. Since HP are meant to represent more than pure physical health (to some degree they're also stamina, will to live, etc.) you could say that gaining levels doesn't do as much to increase how tough/durable a character's body is, since those other things don't apply to an unconscious character.
This also feels a little bit like it ties in to my 'reattaching the soul is difficult and delicate' house rule that only allows a character to be resurrected or revivified once.
Maybe it's just the way we play, but this has never been an issue for us. If someone goes down, it's not "we can just raise them," it's "how are we going to win this battle?" It's very easy to death spiral when people start dropping, and the tension around that is enough to get us sitting up straight and digging deep into our sheets to try to pull out a miracle.
But we also rarely opt for resurrection anyway. If it was a good death, we let it stand. In general I tend to gravitate towards the "let the people decide" options - death can be permanent if you want it to be, but who am I to prevent others from an easy rez if they would be really upset to lose their character?
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Oh it's just normal death. I have never heard anyone use those terms before. 🤷🏿♂️
It's death without going through the death save process (and thus no option to bring people back up with combat healing).