That’s the beauty of what I’m suggesting if you change it it changes for everyone not just a few people. The way the system is now however you do not necessarily get a class feature in exchange for an ASI.
Well if you're the DM, you have the power to change that. A lot of people don't seem to want that change, so I don't think a core rules change is needed
All players would not multi class because some would want to get to the high-end abilities available only to single classed characters.
Correct under my proposed system a 3/1 would get an ASI and assuming that they ever wanted to get to any of the other abilities in their class they would eventually become a 4/1 at which point they wouldn’t get a ASI. A single class character would get an ASI at fourth level in fact it really doesn’t change for them. Really the only change in the system is that all not some multi class characters would receive five ASI.
Changing how ASI’s are earned would change the power level of characters and make multi class characters more powerful in almost every game than single class characters are. It would bend the power curve pretty significantly except when campaigns get to 20th level and almost no campaigns get to that level. That’s unbalancing and that’s why it’s set up the way it’s set up.
Let's take an example, a 3rd level Paladin. They've earned enough XP for 4th level.
What is the gain in going from 3rd level Paladin, to 4th level Paladin? Ability Score Improvement and 1d10 hp
Cool, that's part of the advancement of the class.
What would they get if they multiclassed to Fighter instead, becoming Paladin:3, Fighter:1? Fighting Style, Second Wind and 1d10 hp
So overall, if they take Fighter, they lose the ASI and gain Fighting Style and Second Wind.
Given that the game has already established an optional rule that states that a single Feat is equivalent to an ASI, we're comparing Fighting Style and Second Wind to a Feat, and that seems to work out well.
If ASI are connected to overall character level, then it looks massively different.
The 3rd level Paladin knows that, regardless of what class they pick their next level in, they will gain an ASI. So, compare level 4 in Paladin (gains 1d10 hp) or level 1 in Fighter (gains Fighting Style, Second Wind and 1d10 hp).
Now the character us Paladin:3 / Fighter:1 it gets even worse when they level up to 5th level overall!
If they choose a level in Paladin, they get 1d10 hp and if they choose a level in Fighter, they get 1d10 hp plus Action Surge.
4th level of pretty much every class has ONLY the ASI for that level. It's part of the progression of the class. If you take that away, there is no bonus, other than some hit points, for taking that level, compared to taking a level in another class and gaining features.
Pretty soon, you'd end up with Paladin:3, Fighter:3, Cleric:3 etc.
Since multiclassing is an optional rule anyway, you're already taking some liberties by doing it at all. Why not just go all out and do it the way you want? It's your game after all.
just sounds like an excuse to not have to keep track of character levels separately like previous editions and it also messes over multi-classing.
But with multiclassing you already do have to keep track of you separate class levels for HP? And as for your second point, it balances multiclassing. If ASI were tied to class level, then as Stormknight said in their post 4 years ago it leads to multiclassed characters being more optimal than single-classed characters.
As always, you can feel free to change the rule at your table. But ASIs are tied to class level for a mechanical reason.
My take is this, it would take a great deal of work to make a change so significant and if they did so we would all be spending big bucks buying the books all over again so think on that. That being said I try to think of each perk or ability with in the theme or idea that it is designed. So if an ASI/Feat is part of class progression they need to be buttoned up and tightened down. There is no reason a fighter who is learning to fight and use non magic should be taking a feat like fey touched and in the same breath they should not have access to increase some ability scores unless the subclass chosen aligns with that increase such as Eldritch Knight and INT. That said if we did switch it to a character based feature (witch i agree it should be) then we would have to adjust or replace those gaps in class with something different save for the classes such as fighter and rogue who get an extra because that 1 single extra as a class feature does make sense but should be restricted heavily. As for when you should get an ASI we already have a perfect map for it, proficiency bonus, when it goes up you should gain an ASI. Why because i have always seen both as your character taking their experience and using it to push them to the next level people do today when they find that one extra push that drives them or that one extra skill that perfects their work. Personally I find myself disappointed it never came up in the as something to think about when they did the class adjustments in the UA. In the long run though it is something for us to play with and try out ourselves as the writers and Devs will not get around to it any time soon if ever though i would suggest an open mind as 1DND rises some things will have to become concrete but should this be one of them? Time will tell.
As I stated my understanding of the rule was that it was character level not class level because it doesn’t say when you achieve fourth level as a blank but rather just “when you achieve 4th level and again...”. Therefore it can be interpreted as character level not class level.
It doesn’t discourage you from multi classing because you might miss out on a ASI/feat it only discourages you from picking levels not divisible by 4.
You bring up a good point I’m not suggesting we alter the rogue or fighter class but rather find a way in which all players benefit from the system. I didn’t literally mean that it was a mathematics problem just that if you choose to make a multi class character that is divisible by 2 or 4 you benefit more than if you don’t. If you want to play a pure class go ahead but don’t penalize people for being creative and building characters that they enjoy.
on the contrary, many people do get to the ASI level because they wonder if that level is really necessary or not. as an exemple... Ranger/rogue multiclass... rogue most usually stops at 11, ranger most usually stops at 7 or 9.if you stop at 7, you get two whole levels not used, and even thoguh you could multiclass a third class, its usually not that big of a deal, and you do lose two ASI doing this. as you skip both 12 from rogue/ranger and the 8th level ASI from the other class. two asi's means you got pretty good stats if you lose both of those and you play with array that means only 1 stat gets to 20 the other do not. if you do have at least 1 of those two, you can get a second stat to 20. so thats a real deal you have to check for. its more evident on the Rogue/ranger multiclass, but each other class multiclassing has the same dilemma.
this is the better route and i'll explain why that is... but first you have to understand why they changed it to begin with... back in 3rd edition, we gained 1 ASI per 4 levels, everyone always cryed about it not being a big deal and they are right, back then ASI weren't part of any leveling process, we did have them but honestly they were so minimal that we didn't really count any of them in our builds... feats were every 3 levels, but were way smaller then they are now. the problem players had was that feat starvation was always a thing. feat were so great that we needed them and we needed them a lot. making us multiclass a ton just to try and get more of them from other classes.
so to recap... ASI were useless bonuses because they were too minimal... feats were too big to pass up and forced us to multiclass to get more.
now let's get to 5th edition... how can you tone down feats while keeping their powers and how can you make ASI better. all the while keeping multiclassing to a minimum so that full class gets good again... the solution was easy... bump ASI up a notch, 2 per ASI now is worth it. feats, gives a lot less but make them more powerfull by combining the must have together. now if you keep the out of levels a thing, people will just multiclass a lot without thinking about those feats and ASI. because they would be gaining everything... so the logical step is that you must have choices to lose something. by making everything into the class level you solve two problems with one stone...
first problem : multiclassing not having important choices to make, now multiclassing gives that choice, you want more feat or stats, or you want more class features. but you can't have both.
second problem : multiclassing made leveling up a confused system because players had to remember to gain ASI every 4 levels and feats every 3 levels. with level 1 being an exception to the feat gaining stuff. now people can easily remember by just checking at their classes to see when they gain it. instead of having to check a secondary table just to see where they get what.
and this is why this method is far superior to the old ways. it solved numerous problems that rendered 3rd edition a nightmare for many players who didn't want to learn the books by heart. it just simplified the system by a lot.
SIDENOTE: you said it wasn'T a mathematical problem... but thats false, anything that has stats involved in a process is a mathematical equation that can be solved. fatc is people multiclass because they want bigger stats and multiclassing boost those stats. thats also why most people want anythign that boost damage per rounds and not role playing abilities like the ranger gets. becaus mathematically you are voluntarily making your character weaker by choosing the lowest numbers. its like voluntarily not winning the lotery when you get the right number for sake of being yourself. that leads to, why did you buy the ticket in the first place if that was gonna be the case ? thats just a stupid thing to do. same happens for many charcaters... why would your wizard nerf himself and put himself in danger voluntarily out of nowhere ? there must be a very good reason for that. as an exemple... i have a wizard fist bugbear with 10 intellect... why is that ? because he doesn'T care for any DC since all spells he uses are offensive and no saves... he's a rapier wielding blade singer. but if i was to keep that and start making him voluntarily be dumb and always using a crossbow he's not proficient with, that would be really dumb to the point where the character would become unplayable.
i get you, but mathematics is what this game is all about. sure there is role play, but the game is more then likely a dice game where maths is a big part of it. so yes, the equation can be solved and yes there is a point in time where those maths will make your characer weaker. multiclassing does make your character stronger or weaker depending on your choices.
DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
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This is a silly argument if you understand class progression in 5e. The classes were written so that you get something every level. A few classes have very minor features at the ASI levels, but generally that's what you get at those levels. If you only take 4 levels of Fighter, you don't get Extra Attacks. If you only take 3 levels of Fighter, you don't get your ASI. It's a class feature like all the others, the only difference is that all classes get it.
That’s the beauty of what I’m suggesting if you change it it changes for everyone not just a few people. The way the system is now however you do not necessarily get a class feature in exchange for an ASI.
Well if you're the DM, you have the power to change that. A lot of people don't seem to want that change, so I don't think a core rules change is needed
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
All players would not multi class because some would want to get to the high-end abilities available only to single classed characters.
Correct under my proposed system a 3/1 would get an ASI and assuming that they ever wanted to get to any of the other abilities in their class they would eventually become a 4/1 at which point they wouldn’t get a ASI. A single class character would get an ASI at fourth level in fact it really doesn’t change for them. Really the only change in the system is that all not some multi class characters would receive five ASI.
Changing how ASI’s are earned would change the power level of characters and make multi class characters more powerful in almost every game than single class characters are. It would bend the power curve pretty significantly except when campaigns get to 20th level and almost no campaigns get to that level. That’s unbalancing and that’s why it’s set up the way it’s set up.
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D&D Beyond FoundersLet's take an example, a 3rd level Paladin. They've earned enough XP for 4th level.
What is the gain in going from 3rd level Paladin, to 4th level Paladin? Ability Score Improvement and 1d10 hp
Cool, that's part of the advancement of the class.
What would they get if they multiclassed to Fighter instead, becoming Paladin:3, Fighter:1? Fighting Style, Second Wind and 1d10 hp
So overall, if they take Fighter, they lose the ASI and gain Fighting Style and Second Wind.
Given that the game has already established an optional rule that states that a single Feat is equivalent to an ASI, we're comparing Fighting Style and Second Wind to a Feat, and that seems to work out well.
If ASI are connected to overall character level, then it looks massively different.
The 3rd level Paladin knows that, regardless of what class they pick their next level in, they will gain an ASI. So, compare level 4 in Paladin (gains 1d10 hp) or level 1 in Fighter (gains Fighting Style, Second Wind and 1d10 hp).
Now the character us Paladin:3 / Fighter:1 it gets even worse when they level up to 5th level overall!
If they choose a level in Paladin, they get 1d10 hp and if they choose a level in Fighter, they get 1d10 hp plus Action Surge.
4th level of pretty much every class has ONLY the ASI for that level. It's part of the progression of the class. If you take that away, there is no bonus, other than some hit points, for taking that level, compared to taking a level in another class and gaining features.
Pretty soon, you'd end up with Paladin:3, Fighter:3, Cleric:3 etc.
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"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
Since multiclassing is an optional rule anyway, you're already taking some liberties by doing it at all. Why not just go all out and do it the way you want? It's your game after all.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
just sounds like an excuse to not have to keep track of character levels separately like previous editions and it also messes over multi-classing.
But with multiclassing you already do have to keep track of you separate class levels for HP? And as for your second point, it balances multiclassing. If ASI were tied to class level, then as Stormknight said in their post 4 years ago it leads to multiclassed characters being more optimal than single-classed characters.
As always, you can feel free to change the rule at your table. But ASIs are tied to class level for a mechanical reason.
My take is this, it would take a great deal of work to make a change so significant and if they did so we would all be spending big bucks buying the books all over again so think on that. That being said I try to think of each perk or ability with in the theme or idea that it is designed. So if an ASI/Feat is part of class progression they need to be buttoned up and tightened down. There is no reason a fighter who is learning to fight and use non magic should be taking a feat like fey touched and in the same breath they should not have access to increase some ability scores unless the subclass chosen aligns with that increase such as Eldritch Knight and INT. That said if we did switch it to a character based feature (witch i agree it should be) then we would have to adjust or replace those gaps in class with something different save for the classes such as fighter and rogue who get an extra because that 1 single extra as a class feature does make sense but should be restricted heavily. As for when you should get an ASI we already have a perfect map for it, proficiency bonus, when it goes up you should gain an ASI. Why because i have always seen both as your character taking their experience and using it to push them to the next level people do today when they find that one extra push that drives them or that one extra skill that perfects their work. Personally I find myself disappointed it never came up in the as something to think about when they did the class adjustments in the UA. In the long run though it is something for us to play with and try out ourselves as the writers and Devs will not get around to it any time soon if ever though i would suggest an open mind as 1DND rises some things will have to become concrete but should this be one of them? Time will tell.
on the contrary, many people do get to the ASI level because they wonder if that level is really necessary or not. as an exemple...
Ranger/rogue multiclass... rogue most usually stops at 11, ranger most usually stops at 7 or 9.if you stop at 7, you get two whole levels not used, and even thoguh you could multiclass a third class, its usually not that big of a deal, and you do lose two ASI doing this. as you skip both 12 from rogue/ranger and the 8th level ASI from the other class. two asi's means you got pretty good stats if you lose both of those and you play with array that means only 1 stat gets to 20 the other do not. if you do have at least 1 of those two, you can get a second stat to 20. so thats a real deal you have to check for. its more evident on the Rogue/ranger multiclass, but each other class multiclassing has the same dilemma.
this is the better route and i'll explain why that is... but first you have to understand why they changed it to begin with...
back in 3rd edition, we gained 1 ASI per 4 levels, everyone always cryed about it not being a big deal and they are right, back then ASI weren't part of any leveling process, we did have them but honestly they were so minimal that we didn't really count any of them in our builds... feats were every 3 levels, but were way smaller then they are now. the problem players had was that feat starvation was always a thing. feat were so great that we needed them and we needed them a lot. making us multiclass a ton just to try and get more of them from other classes.
so to recap...
ASI were useless bonuses because they were too minimal...
feats were too big to pass up and forced us to multiclass to get more.
now let's get to 5th edition...
how can you tone down feats while keeping their powers and how can you make ASI better. all the while keeping multiclassing to a minimum so that full class gets good again...
the solution was easy... bump ASI up a notch, 2 per ASI now is worth it. feats, gives a lot less but make them more powerfull by combining the must have together. now if you keep the out of levels a thing, people will just multiclass a lot without thinking about those feats and ASI. because they would be gaining everything... so the logical step is that you must have choices to lose something. by making everything into the class level you solve two problems with one stone...
first problem : multiclassing not having important choices to make, now multiclassing gives that choice, you want more feat or stats, or you want more class features. but you can't have both.
second problem : multiclassing made leveling up a confused system because players had to remember to gain ASI every 4 levels and feats every 3 levels. with level 1 being an exception to the feat gaining stuff. now people can easily remember by just checking at their classes to see when they gain it. instead of having to check a secondary table just to see where they get what.
and this is why this method is far superior to the old ways.
it solved numerous problems that rendered 3rd edition a nightmare for many players who didn't want to learn the books by heart.
it just simplified the system by a lot.
SIDENOTE:
you said it wasn'T a mathematical problem... but thats false, anything that has stats involved in a process is a mathematical equation that can be solved. fatc is people multiclass because they want bigger stats and multiclassing boost those stats. thats also why most people want anythign that boost damage per rounds and not role playing abilities like the ranger gets. becaus mathematically you are voluntarily making your character weaker by choosing the lowest numbers. its like voluntarily not winning the lotery when you get the right number for sake of being yourself. that leads to, why did you buy the ticket in the first place if that was gonna be the case ? thats just a stupid thing to do. same happens for many charcaters... why would your wizard nerf himself and put himself in danger voluntarily out of nowhere ? there must be a very good reason for that. as an exemple... i have a wizard fist bugbear with 10 intellect... why is that ? because he doesn'T care for any DC since all spells he uses are offensive and no saves... he's a rapier wielding blade singer. but if i was to keep that and start making him voluntarily be dumb and always using a crossbow he's not proficient with, that would be really dumb to the point where the character would become unplayable.
i get you, but mathematics is what this game is all about. sure there is role play, but the game is more then likely a dice game where maths is a big part of it. so yes, the equation can be solved and yes there is a point in time where those maths will make your characer weaker. multiclassing does make your character stronger or weaker depending on your choices.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
This is a silly argument if you understand class progression in 5e. The classes were written so that you get something every level. A few classes have very minor features at the ASI levels, but generally that's what you get at those levels. If you only take 4 levels of Fighter, you don't get Extra Attacks. If you only take 3 levels of Fighter, you don't get your ASI. It's a class feature like all the others, the only difference is that all classes get it.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm