VERY easy solution... Have one book with a code ($100 version) and another at normal price... problem solved.
teak
Even easier solution - just have one hardcover book.
Then buy the physical and digital books separately and just buy what you want.
It feels to me that the main disconnect here in this discussion is that some people feel that there should be a saving for purchasing the physical and digital book together as a "bundle" but with multiple business partners involved, creating such a bundle would add cost, rather than remove it, resulting in a "bundle" that doesn't save money for the consumer and makes less money for the company.
What would you prefer... Purchasing the content (PHB, MM) once and then paying for tools like DDB / Roll20? Or the current system? Let me be very precise... DDb and Roll20 need to be paid for their excellent services, this is NOT about them... Its about paying for the exact same content twice (or three times, depending on what electronic tools you use).
teak
Going back to previous replies as well: how would pay 100$ for a bundle version and, say, 50$ for the physical-only version plus having to pay for the tools be better than paying 50$ for a physical version, 20$ for the digital version and having the tools free?
It is a genuine question, because I fail to understand the logic, to be honest...
Here's what I mean...
If I want to purchase an electronic only version of the content, I should pay 50 bucks. If I want to purchase an electronic AND physical version of the content, I should pay 100 bucks. If I want to use tools such as DDb / Roll20, etc. I should pay them for the use of their tools.
Basically... I wouldn't do the $100 version because I only want electronic. I would then for sure purchase the tools here and Roll20.
Make sense?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men... - Willy Wonka
I still don't understand why WotC would want to do that.
Or how many users would want to deface their books to make paying someone even minimum wage to handle that worth it.
I'm not trying to fault you for being creative, but I'm still not convinced there's a realistic workable solution other than the one in place.
A far-sighted company would want a way to increase their market share and the current model (in my opinion) doesn't do that. If someone wants to play via a VTT and use various tools, the current model is that I have to purchase the same content(if you want to use the tool sites to its fullest) on all of the tools site that you use. This is a turn off for some... For example, I will use Roll20 but I will not pay again for a Players Handbook...This is a bummer and I believe if WoTC was more creative in their approach they would actually see an increase in their revenue because of new people entering into the hobby.
teak
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men... - Willy Wonka
VERY easy solution... Have one book with a code ($100 version) and another at normal price... problem solved.
teak
Even easier solution - just have one hardcover book.
Then buy the physical and digital books separately and just buy what you want.
It feels to me that the main disconnect here in this discussion is that some people feel that there should be a saving for purchasing the physical and digital book together as a "bundle" but with multiple business partners involved, creating such a bundle would add cost, rather than remove it, resulting in a "bundle" that doesn't save money for the consumer and makes less money for the company.
What would you prefer... Purchasing the content (PHB, MM) once and then paying for tools like DDB / Roll20? Or the current system? Let me be very precise... DDb and Roll20 need to be paid for their excellent services, this is NOT about them... Its about paying for the exact same content twice (or three times, depending on what electronic tools you use).
teak
Going back to previous replies as well: how would pay 100$ for a bundle version and, say, 50$ for the physical-only version plus having to pay for the tools be better than paying 50$ for a physical version, 20$ for the digital version and having the tools free?
It is a genuine question, because I fail to understand the logic, to be honest...
Here's what I mean...
If I want to purchase an electronic only version of the content, I should pay 50 bucks. If I want to purchase an electronic AND physical version of the content, I should pay 100 bucks. If I want to use tools such as DDb / Roll20, etc. I should pay them for the use of their tools.
Basically... I wouldn't do the $100 version because I only want electronic. I would then for sure purchase the tools here and Roll20.
Make sense?
On a theoretical level, it does indeed.
On a practical level: how is paying 50$ for the digital and then pay for the tools better than paying 19/29$ for digital and have the tools for free?
I am sorry, I really am, but I still do not understand the benefit of your logic in this comparison.
VERY easy solution... Have one book with a code ($100 version) and another at normal price... problem solved.
teak
Even easier solution - just have one hardcover book.
Then buy the physical and digital books separately and just buy what you want.
It feels to me that the main disconnect here in this discussion is that some people feel that there should be a saving for purchasing the physical and digital book together as a "bundle" but with multiple business partners involved, creating such a bundle would add cost, rather than remove it, resulting in a "bundle" that doesn't save money for the consumer and makes less money for the company.
What would you prefer... Purchasing the content (PHB, MM) once and then paying for tools like DDB / Roll20? Or the current system? Let me be very precise... DDb and Roll20 need to be paid for their excellent services, this is NOT about them... Its about paying for the exact same content twice (or three times, depending on what electronic tools you use).
teak
Going back to previous replies as well: how would pay 100$ for a bundle version and, say, 50$ for the physical-only version plus having to pay for the tools be better than paying 50$ for a physical version, 20$ for the digital version and having the tools free?
It is a genuine question, because I fail to understand the logic, to be honest...
Here's what I mean...
If I want to purchase an electronic only version of the content, I should pay 50 bucks. If I want to purchase an electronic AND physical version of the content, I should pay 100 bucks. If I want to use tools such as DDb / Roll20, etc. I should pay them for the use of their tools.
Basically... I wouldn't do the $100 version because I only want electronic. I would then for sure purchase the tools here and Roll20.
Make sense?
On a theoretical level, it does indeed.
On a practical level: how is paying 50$ for the digital and then pay for the tools better than paying 19/29$ for digital and have the tools for free?
I am sorry, I really am, but I still do not understand the benefit of your logic in this comparison.
Fair question... Because I would also like to use Roll20 AND DDB. So, if I wanted to use Roll20 now, I would have to purchase AGAIN the PH for 50 bucks. And, I've already purchased it here... So, combine the two and I've already spent more money... I think the toolset for say 10 bucks a month (or whatever) seems fair. I've already purchased the first level here.
The devil is in the details for sure...and, this is more of a concept...but, I firmly believe anytime you are forcing customers to purchase the same product twice that will leave a bad taste in people's mouth.
teak
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men... - Willy Wonka
But no one's forcing anyone to do anything. Just weigh the value proposition. Is what you get from buying the material on roll20 worth the cost to you if you've already bought it on D&D Beyond? If it's not, don't buy it. If it is, buy it.
I still don't understand why WotC would want to do that.
Or how many users would want to deface their books to make paying someone even minimum wage to handle that worth it.
I'm not trying to fault you for being creative, but I'm still not convinced there's a realistic workable solution other than the one in place.
A far-sighted company would want a way to increase their market share and the current model (in my opinion) doesn't do that. If someone wants to play via a VTT and use various tools, the current model is that I have to purchase the same content(if you want to use the tool sites to its fullest) on all of the tools site that you use. This is a turn off for some... For example, I will use Roll20 but I will not pay again for a Players Handbook...This is a bummer and I believe if WoTC was more creative in their approach they would actually see an increase in their revenue because of new people entering into the hobby.
teak
But going back to my old example, that's like saying Bethesda is not a far-sighted company because when I buy their game for PS4, I can't also play it on PC and get the benefits of that.
If you want to play primarily on VTT, get the VTT version of the books. DDB is not a VTT.
I hate to keep going back to old points here, but for all of the criticism coming out for how WotC is run, D&D is currently at it's most successful point in 30 years, if not ever. When they were more "sharing" and open with the IP (3.5) and experimental (4e), the business dropped off, became even more of a niche, and caused D&D to get passed up in sales by an indie off-shoot of their product.
I bought a D&D shirt at Target a few weeks ago. Even if it's sales aren't passing up what they were in the 80s (adjusted for inflation of course), it's definitely WAY more a part of the cultural zeitgeist than it ever has been before. That is a sign of growth, and I guarantee you they are thinking about how to expand that growth. And I guarantee you that growth does not include giving their IP away for free beyond the Basic Rules.
On a practical level: how is paying 50$ for the digital and then pay for the tools better than paying 19/29$ for digital and have the tools for free?
I am sorry, I really am, but I still do not understand the benefit of your logic in this comparison.
Fair question... Because I would also like to use Roll20 AND DDB. So, if I wanted to use Roll20 now, I would have to purchase AGAIN the PH for 50 bucks. And, I've already purchased it here... So, combine the two and I've already spent more money... I think the toolset for say 10 bucks a month (or whatever) seems fair. I've already purchased the first level here.
The devil is in the details for sure...and, this is more of a concept...but, I firmly believe anytime you are forcing customers to purchase the same product twice that will leave a bad taste in people's mouth.
teak
Now I understand! You meant ANY digital tool gets the content unlocked.
Now it's much more clear.
I believe it is mostly a matter of taste and perspective, to be honest. Let me explain: for you, paying a one-time fee for the content and the pay monthly a sum that, going by your example is 1/5 of the price for the content, is reasonable and fair trade; to me, paying a lower price for the content I might already have purchased for it to be used integrally in a digital environment/toolset freely, with no added cost unless I want more, it is preferable. It's basically a matter of paying something upfront and then use it at your leisure, or pay something on top of it to be able to use it, potentially spending more money in the long run (going by your example, if you use Roll20 for just 5 months it is as if you would have paid one book full price twice).
Now, I am obviously biased in what I prefer, and I apologise as I do not want it to seem I am implying my preference is the only viable and proper one, but since it is the one I prefer, I want to share why it is in my opinion preferable.
I very much respect your opinion, and I see how it can be appealing, as it plays on the psychology of "I paid once for the content, I do not feel scammed by the company", but I feel it also has its drowback, in the long run.
I still don't understand why WotC would want to do that.
Or how many users would want to deface their books to make paying someone even minimum wage to handle that worth it.
I'm not trying to fault you for being creative, but I'm still not convinced there's a realistic workable solution other than the one in place.
I think we've landed on that it will only work if D&D grew out of a niche market user base. I argue that this is something that is holding them back from growing out of it.
You are aware that pen and paper tabletop gaming is still very much a niche market, right? So you're saying that D&D needs to move away from being D&D? I'm still not sure I follow your logic.
Like, I don't see any difference in the logic that DDB should be cheaper for people who have the hardcover than by also saying that since I bought one hardcover, WotC should sell me additional hardcovers at the cost of production. I mean, I already paid for the information in the books once. And I understand that paper and ink and labor to press those together costs money, so let me just pay for that again (and heck, even shipping since we're being reasonable), and then let me keep the difference in what WotC would make on the sale of that. It's not like they'd be losing money to do that.
Except we all know that would never happen. It's just not how the world works.
But no one's forcing anyone to do anything. Just weigh the value proposition. Is what you get from buying the material on roll20 worth the cost to you if you've already bought it on D&D Beyond? If it's not, don't buy it. If it is, buy it.
I've never said anything about forcing... Its a complete and utter bummer that if I want to use BOTH DDb and Roll20 to its fullest I have to purchase the EXACT same content...
teak
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men... - Willy Wonka
It sounds to me like your real beef is with Roll20. You seem to want the functionality of a VTT, which DDB has said they have no intention of becoming, so you should be directing this energy towards Roll20 to urge them to implement the same features as DDB. That way you don't have to buy anything twice.
But no one's forcing anyone to do anything. Just weigh the value proposition. Is what you get from buying the material on roll20 worth the cost to you if you've already bought it on D&D Beyond? If it's not, don't buy it. If it is, buy it.
I've never said anything about forcing... Its a complete and utter bummer that if I want to use BOTH DDb and Roll20 to its fullest I have to purchase the EXACT same content...
teak
To be clear, I was responding to your comment that "I firmly believe anytime you are forcing customers to purchase the same product twice that will leave a bad taste in people's mouth."
But no one's forcing anyone to do anything. Just weigh the value proposition. Is what you get from buying the material on roll20 worth the cost to you if you've already bought it on D&D Beyond? If it's not, don't buy it. If it is, buy it.
I've never said anything about forcing... Its a complete and utter bummer that if I want to use BOTH DDb and Roll20 to its fullest I have to purchase the EXACT same content...
teak
I hope you're just as active on their forums fighting for this too. Maybe even go a step further over there. Since you bought the digital books here, they should give you a discount for the tools
But no one's forcing anyone to do anything. Just weigh the value proposition. Is what you get from buying the material on roll20 worth the cost to you if you've already bought it on D&D Beyond? If it's not, don't buy it. If it is, buy it.
I've never said anything about forcing... Its a complete and utter bummer that if I want to use BOTH DDb and Roll20 to its fullest I have to purchase the EXACT same content...
teak
I hope you're just as active on their forums fighting for this too. Maybe even go a step further over there. Since you bought the digital books here, they should give you a discount for the tools
The tools are different and they should be paid for their hard work... The content is the same (players handbook, MM, etc.) on both tool sets.
teak
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men... - Willy Wonka
But no one's forcing anyone to do anything. Just weigh the value proposition. Is what you get from buying the material on roll20 worth the cost to you if you've already bought it on D&D Beyond? If it's not, don't buy it. If it is, buy it.
I've never said anything about forcing... Its a complete and utter bummer that if I want to use BOTH DDb and Roll20 to its fullest I have to purchase the EXACT same content...
teak
To be clear, I was responding to your comment that "I firmly believe anytime you are forcing customers to purchase the same product twice that will leave a bad taste in people's mouth."
OK. Sounds good... And, it does leave a bad taste in my mouth. In fact, I'm not going to purchase additional content at Roll20. Like you said, no one is forcing me to make a purchase...
It sounds to me like your real beef is with Roll20. You seem to want the functionality of a VTT, which DDB has said they have no intention of becoming, so you should be directing this energy towards Roll20 to urge them to implement the same features as DDB. That way you don't have to buy anything twice.
Not really... The organization (Roll20 / DDb) who spend lots of time and effort to make great tools deserve to get paid. WoTC though, creates outstanding content and if I want to use with both tool sets (because they do different things)to its fullest capabilities, I would need to purchase the content twice. Content same on both platforms...tools are different.
In any event, I've said my opinion 2.12 million times, so I'll shut up now.
teak
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men... - Willy Wonka
I still don't understand why WotC would want to do that.
Or how many users would want to deface their books to make paying someone even minimum wage to handle that worth it.
I'm not trying to fault you for being creative, but I'm still not convinced there's a realistic workable solution other than the one in place.
I think we've landed on that it will only work if D&D grew out of a niche market user base. I argue that this is something that is holding them back from growing out of it.
You are aware that pen and paper tabletop gaming is still very much a niche market, right? So you're saying that D&D needs to move away from being D&D? I'm still not sure I follow your logic.
It's like what you were saying about seeing a D&D T-Shirt at Target. I've only been playing D&D for about 2 years with 1 group of friends, but during that time I've noticed the same thing you're talking about. D&D is being more part of the cultural zeitgeist. Me being recruited to play is another indicator of that. What I'm saying is that things like T-Shirts in Target, shows like Critical Role, and 5e's great rules design have put D&D in that position to grow. I also think that existence of Digital licensings have contributed to that, but I'm saying their implementations are holding growth back because of the "repurchase the content multiple times" issues. (Not the implementations of the tools necessarily, the implementations of the licensing)
I still don't understand why WotC would want to do that.
Or how many users would want to deface their books to make paying someone even minimum wage to handle that worth it.
I'm not trying to fault you for being creative, but I'm still not convinced there's a realistic workable solution other than the one in place.
I think we've landed on that it will only work if D&D grew out of a niche market user base. I argue that this is something that is holding them back from growing out of it.
You are aware that pen and paper tabletop gaming is still very much a niche market, right? So you're saying that D&D needs to move away from being D&D? I'm still not sure I follow your logic.
It's like what you were saying about seeing a D&D T-Shirt at Target. I've only been playing D&D for about 2 years with 1 group of friends, but during that time I've noticed the same thing you're talking about. D&D is being more part of the cultural zeitgeist. Me being recruited to play is another indicator of that. What I'm saying is that things like T-Shirts in Target, shows like Critical Role, and 5e's great rules design have put D&D in that position to grow. I also think that existence of Digital licensings have contributed to that, but I'm saying their implementations are holding growth back because of the "repurchase the content multiple times" issues. (Not the implementations of the tools necessarily, the implementations of the licensing)
Where are you getting that idea though? If they would be buying twice, the already own the books. Growth achieved. If they are just now discovering, they have many options to choose from. In neither case does growth accelerate for giving content away.
I will reiterate, NOBODY has to purchase anything more than once. You're more than welcome to keep your physical books for the content and artwork, create the homebrew content you need to replicate your characters here, and use Roll20 without costing you anything as a player or DM if you're willing to put a little extra work into it. Or... you can continue to play the game with paper and pen as you always have.
If you want the full content and artwork in D&D Beyond's digital format, then you need to purchase it again. It goes back to my first comparison. If I bought a regular hardcover copy at one game store, why would I expect another game store (D&D Beyond) to offer me a free/discounted special edition (digital version)? Even if the special edition were another hardcover with a different cover or a digital edition with easily searchable data listings, the content would be the same in either context, but you wouldn't expect special treatment for another physical copy. Why is the digital copy any different?
I feel like this has more to do with players not being satisfied with the SRD and basic rules. To be honest, WotC didn't have to release them at all. They were designed for people with less access to the resources needed to invest in a copy for themselves so they could still play the game. WotC offered this as a solution for those players without giving up the full IP rights and economic sustainability by not making the entire game materials free.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat On - Mod Hat Off
If I want to purchase an electronic AND physical version of the content, I should pay 100 bucks.
If I want to use tools such as DDb / Roll20, etc. I should pay them for the use of their tools.
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men...
- Willy Wonka
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men...
- Willy Wonka
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men...
- Willy Wonka
But no one's forcing anyone to do anything. Just weigh the value proposition. Is what you get from buying the material on roll20 worth the cost to you if you've already bought it on D&D Beyond? If it's not, don't buy it. If it is, buy it.
If you want to play primarily on VTT, get the VTT version of the books. DDB is not a VTT.
I hate to keep going back to old points here, but for all of the criticism coming out for how WotC is run, D&D is currently at it's most successful point in 30 years, if not ever. When they were more "sharing" and open with the IP (3.5) and experimental (4e), the business dropped off, became even more of a niche, and caused D&D to get passed up in sales by an indie off-shoot of their product.
I bought a D&D shirt at Target a few weeks ago. Even if it's sales aren't passing up what they were in the 80s (adjusted for inflation of course), it's definitely WAY more a part of the cultural zeitgeist than it ever has been before. That is a sign of growth, and I guarantee you they are thinking about how to expand that growth. And I guarantee you that growth does not include giving their IP away for free beyond the Basic Rules.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
You are aware that pen and paper tabletop gaming is still very much a niche market, right? So you're saying that D&D needs to move away from being D&D? I'm still not sure I follow your logic.
Like, I don't see any difference in the logic that DDB should be cheaper for people who have the hardcover than by also saying that since I bought one hardcover, WotC should sell me additional hardcovers at the cost of production. I mean, I already paid for the information in the books once. And I understand that paper and ink and labor to press those together costs money, so let me just pay for that again (and heck, even shipping since we're being reasonable), and then let me keep the difference in what WotC would make on the sale of that. It's not like they'd be losing money to do that.
Except we all know that would never happen. It's just not how the world works.
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men...
- Willy Wonka
It sounds to me like your real beef is with Roll20. You seem to want the functionality of a VTT, which DDB has said they have no intention of becoming, so you should be directing this energy towards Roll20 to urge them to implement the same features as DDB. That way you don't have to buy anything twice.
DM for the Adventures in Erylia Podcast
Where five friends sit around the table and record themselves playing Dungeons and Dragons
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men...
- Willy Wonka
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men...
- Willy Wonka
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
D&D Beyond FoundersEveryone - this discussion is getting a little heated. The replies are starting to move from people stating their opinion to arguing with each other.
Calm it down a little please.
Discuss the matter as much as you like, but remember that we won't tolerate personal attacks on these forums.
Thank you :)
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men...
- Willy Wonka
DM for the Adventures in Erylia Podcast
Where five friends sit around the table and record themselves playing Dungeons and Dragons
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
ModeratorI will reiterate, NOBODY has to purchase anything more than once. You're more than welcome to keep your physical books for the content and artwork, create the homebrew content you need to replicate your characters here, and use Roll20 without costing you anything as a player or DM if you're willing to put a little extra work into it. Or... you can continue to play the game with paper and pen as you always have.
If you want the full content and artwork in D&D Beyond's digital format, then you need to purchase it again. It goes back to my first comparison. If I bought a regular hardcover copy at one game store, why would I expect another game store (D&D Beyond) to offer me a free/discounted special edition (digital version)? Even if the special edition were another hardcover with a different cover or a digital edition with easily searchable data listings, the content would be the same in either context, but you wouldn't expect special treatment for another physical copy. Why is the digital copy any different?
I feel like this has more to do with players not being satisfied with the SRD and basic rules. To be honest, WotC didn't have to release them at all. They were designed for people with less access to the resources needed to invest in a copy for themselves so they could still play the game. WotC offered this as a solution for those players without giving up the full IP rights and economic sustainability by not making the entire game materials free.
Homebrew Rules || Homebrew FAQ || Snippet Codes || Tooltips
DDB Guides & FAQs, Class Guides, Character Builds, Game Guides, Useful Websites, and WOTC Resources