Using an essential resource to put the brain eating in perspective. It's easy to say any mindflayer will see the error of their ways and find some alternative to eating brains. But that's not realistic. It is something they need to survive.
Any people will do things to stay alive even if another people say it's evil.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I am actually curious. Forget the sentient water. Do you believe animals like wolves, tigers, bears etc. are inherently evil because they cannot sustain themselves without eating other animals?
What about us? We must eat something, and even if you're vegetarian you kill plants, which are living beings.
If carnivores aren't inherently evil, Mindflayers aren't evil for eating brains, either.
Being carnivorous is different from being cannibalistic (I'm defining cannibalism as being sentient and consuming another sentient creature). Wolves, bears, tigers and other predators aren't evil because they're not smart enough to know the difference between sentience and animal. Being a carnivore or vegetarian isn't evil, but cannibalism of a living creature is evil (yes, only of living creatures. In the real world there are/were cultures that practiced cannibalism on the dead. That's not evil, but eating a dead person, or someone you killed, is evil).
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
If you're saying a mindflayer can be "good" and choose not to eat brains when they need brains to survive, then every "good" mindflayer would die. Putting us back at every mindflayer is evil.
I didn't say you can't have all creatures of a given type be evil. They just have to be evil by their actions and choices.
I am actually curious. Forget the sentient water. Do you believe animals like wolves, tigers, bears etc. are inherently evil because they cannot sustain themselves without eating other animals?
What about us? We must eat something, and even if you're vegetarian you kill plants, which are living beings.
If carnivores aren't inherently evil, Mindflayers aren't evil for eating brains, either.
Being carnivorous is different from being cannibalistic (I'm defining cannibalism as being sentient and consuming another sentient creature). Wolves, bears, tigers and other predators aren't evil because they're not smart enough to know the difference between sentience and animal. Being a carnivore or vegetarian isn't evil, but cannibalism of a living creature is evil (yes, only of living creatures. In the real world there are/were cultures that practiced cannibalism on the dead. That's not evil, but eating a dead person, or someone you killed, is evil).
But what defines “sentience?”
To the Mind flayer perspective, we’re more like talking cows than “people.”
From the pig’s perspective, we’re more like Mind Flayers than “people.”
I am actually curious. Forget the sentient water. Do you believe animals like wolves, tigers, bears etc. are inherently evil because they cannot sustain themselves without eating other animals?
What about us? We must eat something, and even if you're vegetarian you kill plants, which are living beings.
If carnivores aren't inherently evil, Mindflayers aren't evil for eating brains, either.
Being carnivorous is different from being cannibalistic (I'm defining cannibalism as being sentient and consuming another sentient creature). Wolves, bears, tigers and other predators aren't evil because they're not smart enough to know the difference between sentience and animal. Being a carnivore or vegetarian isn't evil, but cannibalism of a living creature is evil (yes, only of living creatures. In the real world there are/were cultures that practiced cannibalism on the dead. That's not evil, but eating a dead person, or someone you killed, is evil).
But what defines “sentience.” To the Mind flayer perspective, we’re more like talking cows than “people.”
From the pig’s perspective, we’re more like Mind Flayers than “people.”
Simple definition, invented by me:
Being able to communicate with other sentient creatures, being capable of forming questions and new ideas, and having free thought.
And of course someone pulls a strawman. If there was a world where all water was sentient, it would be the responsibility of those who drink water to stop drinking it, either making elixirs that make them immortal, turning themselves undead, transfer their mind into creatures that don't need water, or to turn into constructs so they no longer need water.
In an imaginary world where drinking water literally hurts the feelings of sentient water and it's evil to do so, it is on the people doing those evil acts to find a way to stop doing those evil things.
So using your imagination, what would happen if this discovery was made in our world, right now. People need water. They will choose to drink it and wash with it. Even if it is called out to be an evil act, people will still do it because they need it in order to live.
Only if you explain how this is at all relevant in a thread about D&D? This cannot happen in the real world, and so I will not engage further with the troll unless you give me a real reason to reply.
I am actually curious. Forget the sentient water. Do you believe animals like wolves, tigers, bears etc. are inherently evil because they cannot sustain themselves without eating other animals?
What about us? We must eat something, and even if you're vegetarian you kill plants, which are living beings.
If carnivores aren't inherently evil, Mindflayers aren't evil for eating brains, either.
Carnivores aren’t restricted to feeding on sentient beings.
I am actually curious. Forget the sentient water. Do you believe animals like wolves, tigers, bears etc. are inherently evil because they cannot sustain themselves without eating other animals?
What about us? We must eat something, and even if you're vegetarian you kill plants, which are living beings.
If carnivores aren't inherently evil, Mindflayers aren't evil for eating brains, either.
Being carnivorous is different from being cannibalistic (I'm defining cannibalism as being sentient and consuming another sentient creature). Wolves, bears, tigers and other predators aren't evil because they're not smart enough to know the difference between sentience and animal. Being a carnivore or vegetarian isn't evil, but cannibalism of a living creature is evil (yes, only of living creatures. In the real world there are/were cultures that practiced cannibalism on the dead. That's not evil, but eating a dead person, or someone you killed, is evil).
What else would the Mind Flayers do? Just wait to die? I don't think that eating brains makes them evil if they can only survive on brains.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
I am actually curious. Forget the sentient water. Do you believe animals like wolves, tigers, bears etc. are inherently evil because they cannot sustain themselves without eating other animals?
What about us? We must eat something, and even if you're vegetarian you kill plants, which are living beings.
If carnivores aren't inherently evil, Mindflayers aren't evil for eating brains, either.
Being carnivorous is different from being cannibalistic (I'm defining cannibalism as being sentient and consuming another sentient creature). Wolves, bears, tigers and other predators aren't evil because they're not smart enough to know the difference between sentience and animal. Being a carnivore or vegetarian isn't evil, but cannibalism of a living creature is evil (yes, only of living creatures. In the real world there are/were cultures that practiced cannibalism on the dead. That's not evil, but eating a dead person, or someone you killed, is evil).
But what defines “sentience.” To the Mind flayer perspective, we’re more like talking cows than “people.”
From the pig’s perspective, we’re more like Mind Flayers than “people.”
Simple definition, invented by me:
Being able to communicate with other sentient creatures, being capable of forming questions and new ideas.
My dogs communicate very effectively with me, they most definitely occasionally form that communication as questions, and they are also most definitely capable of forming new ideas.
I quite literally watched one of my dogs select a perfect stick, specifically remove bark and pointy bits in strategic locations to suit his preference, and then brought it to me and asked me if I would play with him.
Let me repeat that, I watched a dog invent and make a tool, and ask me a question.
Your average pig is at least as smart as your average dog, if not smarter.
I am actually curious. Forget the sentient water. Do you believe animals like wolves, tigers, bears etc. are inherently evil because they cannot sustain themselves without eating other animals?
What about us? We must eat something, and even if you're vegetarian you kill plants, which are living beings.
If carnivores aren't inherently evil, Mindflayers aren't evil for eating brains, either.
Being carnivorous is different from being cannibalistic (I'm defining cannibalism as being sentient and consuming another sentient creature). Wolves, bears, tigers and other predators aren't evil because they're not smart enough to know the difference between sentience and animal. Being a carnivore or vegetarian isn't evil, but cannibalism of a living creature is evil (yes, only of living creatures. In the real world there are/were cultures that practiced cannibalism on the dead. That's not evil, but eating a dead person, or someone you killed, is evil).
What else would the Mind Flayers do? Just wait to die? I don't think that eating brains makes them evil if they can only survive on brains.
Not going to repeat myself, but I'll refer you to a previous post:
But what defines “sentience.” To the Mind flayer perspective, we’re more like talking cows than “people.”
The particular moral system? D&D is assuming that things can be described as evil or good, which means there's an implicit moral system. Your other alternative is "alignment doesn't exist".
I am actually curious. Forget the sentient water. Do you believe animals like wolves, tigers, bears etc. are inherently evil because they cannot sustain themselves without eating other animals?
What about us? We must eat something, and even if you're vegetarian you kill plants, which are living beings.
If carnivores aren't inherently evil, Mindflayers aren't evil for eating brains, either.
Being carnivorous is different from being cannibalistic (I'm defining cannibalism as being sentient and consuming another sentient creature). Wolves, bears, tigers and other predators aren't evil because they're not smart enough to know the difference between sentience and animal. Being a carnivore or vegetarian isn't evil, but cannibalism of a living creature is evil (yes, only of living creatures. In the real world there are/were cultures that practiced cannibalism on the dead. That's not evil, but eating a dead person, or someone you killed, is evil).
But what defines “sentience.” To the Mind flayer perspective, we’re more like talking cows than “people.”
From the pig’s perspective, we’re more like Mind Flayers than “people.”
Simple definition, invented by me:
Being able to communicate with other sentient creatures, being capable of forming questions and new ideas, and having free thought.
For D&D add "being able to communicate with other sentient beings on their own" to the list. ;-)
Wizards can talk to anything.. plants, animals, all existing languages... I wouldn't be surprised if there was a "Speak with Rocks" spell somewhere. :D
But what defines “sentience.” To the Mind flayer perspective, we’re more like talking cows than “people.”
The particular moral system? D&D is assuming that things can be described as evil or good, which means there's an implicit moral system. Your other alternative is "alignment doesn't exist".
I treat Alignment more as a measure of how a creature is perceived to be more than an actual hardline rule on fact.
I am actually curious. Forget the sentient water. Do you believe animals like wolves, tigers, bears etc. are inherently evil because they cannot sustain themselves without eating other animals?
What about us? We must eat something, and even if you're vegetarian you kill plants, which are living beings.
If carnivores aren't inherently evil, Mindflayers aren't evil for eating brains, either.
Being carnivorous is different from being cannibalistic (I'm defining cannibalism as being sentient and consuming another sentient creature). Wolves, bears, tigers and other predators aren't evil because they're not smart enough to know the difference between sentience and animal. Being a carnivore or vegetarian isn't evil, but cannibalism of a living creature is evil (yes, only of living creatures. In the real world there are/were cultures that practiced cannibalism on the dead. That's not evil, but eating a dead person, or someone you killed, is evil).
But what defines “sentience.” To the Mind flayer perspective, we’re more like talking cows than “people.”
From the pig’s perspective, we’re more like Mind Flayers than “people.”
Simple definition, invented by me:
Being able to communicate with other sentient creatures, being capable of forming questions and new ideas.
My dogs communicate very effectively with me, they most definitely occasionally form that communication as questions, and they are also most definitely capable of forming new ideas.
I quite literally watched one of my dogs select a perfect stick, specifically remove bark and pointy bits in strategic locations to suit his preference, and then brought it to me and asked me if I would play with him.
Let me repeat that, I watched a dog invent and make a tool, and ask me a question.
Your average pig is at least as smart as your average dog, if not smarter.
I eat pork.
Am I evil?
By communicate, I meant language in some form. Some dogs (and maybe pigs) can do this.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
What else would the Mind Flayers do? Just wait to die? I don't think that eating brains makes them evil if they can only survive on brains.
Or suicide. Or at least be very careful about which brains they eat. At the very least, they should show some awareness of the issue and at least seriously look for solutions, even if they never find them.
If someone asked you to commit suicide becuase another because your entire way of life was evil, would you do it? (Trying to think from the Mind Flayers point of view. Not sure if that is a good idea.)
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
I am very glad to see how this conversation has changed since my bring up the Mind Flayers. But I want to loop back around to why I brought up these other beings.
From the arguments I've seen on both sides it seems people are okay with mind flayers being good, but that's a DMs choice and doesn't matter what the source material says about Mind Flayers. So we let each table and each material plane decide if beings are good or evil. Each setting was it's own morality and therefore depending on the world Mind Flayers might be evil or good.
So if this is a belief that each table can decide to ignore the inherent evil built into Mind Flayers or not, why do we not let each table decide if Orcs and Drow are inherently evil? Why do we argue that the source material must change? If each table to free to ignore what they want when it comes to these other beings (or not due to our own opinion on morals) why I ask do those that argue for Orcs lore and history to change to be more neutral in morality do you not argue for Mind Flayers lore to also change?
Yeah, “evil” is a matter of perspective in that regard. Imagine how we must look from the pig’s perspective.... Think about that next time you’re enjoying a bacon sandwich.
Most pigs are not sentient. And that can be confirmed via Speak with Animals, so it is known in character, too.
Disclaimers:
1) We are talking D&D not real life, where potential sentience is a lot harder to check.
2) Individuals vary. Some pigs might be sentient. In such a case, eating them would indeed be wrong.
I am very glad to see how this conversation has changed since my bring up the Mind Flayers. But I want to loop back around to why I brought up these other beings.
From the arguments I've seen on both sides it seems people are okay with mind flayers being good, but that's a DMs choice and doesn't matter what the source material says about Mind Flayers. So we let each table and each material plane decide if beings are good or evil. Each setting was it's own morality and therefore depending on the world Mind Flayers might be evil or good.
So if this is a belief that each table can decide to ignore the inherent evil built into Mind Flayers or not, why do we not let each table decide if Orcs and Drow are inherently evil? Why do we argue that the source material must change? If each table to free to ignore what they want when it comes to these other beings (or not due to our own opinion on morals) why I ask do those that argue for Orcs lore and history to change to be more neutral in morality do you not argue for Mind Flayers lore to also change?
The reason that they're different in terms of rules is because Mind Flayers are built for killing and eating brains, and Orcs and Drow are not, and are player races. Mind Flayers are aberrations, Orcs and Drow are humanoids. There is a difference.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
If you are thinking like a Mind Flayer, then you make a good point. To them who they are is normal and what they are doing is right. Is any creature/animal considered evil if that’s their essence of life? That’s a great question. Let’s look at it this way, if a human were to eat a human that’s seen as cannibalism and is classified as evil. If the Mind Flayer only is able to live by eating the brains of others than it is logical for them to do so in the act of self-preservation. Another example, if a man were to attack you with the intent of killing you, would you not fight back? Would it be murder/evil to kill this man in self-defense of your own life? The Mind Flayer sees others as it’s source of food, like it has a choice? In our minds we think that this is pure evil and that it shouldn’t be done. If the Mind Flayers are aware that what they are doing is evil yet still choose to do this without a care in the world and not even try to find a different way, that is now evil with evil intent. How does someone know that what they are doing is evil if they don’t have a law? Can someone judge another person who doesn’t know the laws that you and everyone else lives by? Example: A person goes to someone’s house and isn’t aware that they have a few house rules, he does something that breaks the rules. Does the host have a right to judge a person for breaking the rules if the host himself neglected to tell him the rules?
How does the Mind Flayer know if that is evil in the first place? I’m curious as to if in a campaign someone was able to get to the Mind Flayer and get it to change its ways? But isn’t that the same as walking up to someone who has an Asian culture and saying,”Yo, you’re doing it wrong, you’re supposed to do it this way.” How does anyone think that’s going to go? Horribly.
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Do’ Taba the Honest Merchant
Malwyn the Barkeeper of The Tales of Adventurers’ Tavern
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Using an essential resource to put the brain eating in perspective. It's easy to say any mindflayer will see the error of their ways and find some alternative to eating brains. But that's not realistic. It is something they need to survive.
Any people will do things to stay alive even if another people say it's evil.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Being carnivorous is different from being cannibalistic (I'm defining cannibalism as being sentient and consuming another sentient creature). Wolves, bears, tigers and other predators aren't evil because they're not smart enough to know the difference between sentience and animal. Being a carnivore or vegetarian isn't evil, but cannibalism of a living creature is evil (yes, only of living creatures. In the real world there are/were cultures that practiced cannibalism on the dead. That's not evil, but eating a dead person, or someone you killed, is evil).
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I didn't say you can't have all creatures of a given type be evil. They just have to be evil by their actions and choices.
But what defines “sentience?”
To the Mind flayer perspective, we’re more like talking cows than “people.”
From the pig’s perspective, we’re more like Mind Flayers than “people.”
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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Hardcovers, DDB & You
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Simple definition, invented by me:
Being able to communicate with other sentient creatures, being capable of forming questions and new ideas, and having free thought.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Carnivores aren’t restricted to feeding on sentient beings.
But this really is off-topic.
What else would the Mind Flayers do? Just wait to die? I don't think that eating brains makes them evil if they can only survive on brains.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
My dogs communicate very effectively with me, they most definitely occasionally form that communication as questions, and they are also most definitely capable of forming new ideas.
I quite literally watched one of my dogs select a perfect stick, specifically remove bark and pointy bits in strategic locations to suit his preference, and then brought it to me and asked me if I would play with him.
Let me repeat that, I watched a dog invent and make a tool, and ask me a question.
Your average pig is at least as smart as your average dog, if not smarter.
I eat pork.
Am I evil?
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Not going to repeat myself, but I'll refer you to a previous post:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/73103-races-and-species?comment=399
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
The particular moral system? D&D is assuming that things can be described as evil or good, which means there's an implicit moral system. Your other alternative is "alignment doesn't exist".
For D&D add "being able to communicate with other sentient beings on their own" to the list. ;-)
Wizards can talk to anything.. plants, animals, all existing languages... I wouldn't be surprised if there was a "Speak with Rocks" spell somewhere. :D
I treat Alignment more as a measure of how a creature is perceived to be more than an actual hardline rule on fact.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
By communicate, I meant language in some form. Some dogs (and maybe pigs) can do this.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
If someone asked you to commit suicide becuase another because your entire way of life was evil, would you do it? (Trying to think from the Mind Flayers point of view. Not sure if that is a good idea.)
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Depends how persuasive their argument is?
I am very glad to see how this conversation has changed since my bring up the Mind Flayers. But I want to loop back around to why I brought up these other beings.
From the arguments I've seen on both sides it seems people are okay with mind flayers being good, but that's a DMs choice and doesn't matter what the source material says about Mind Flayers. So we let each table and each material plane decide if beings are good or evil. Each setting was it's own morality and therefore depending on the world Mind Flayers might be evil or good.
So if this is a belief that each table can decide to ignore the inherent evil built into Mind Flayers or not, why do we not let each table decide if Orcs and Drow are inherently evil? Why do we argue that the source material must change? If each table to free to ignore what they want when it comes to these other beings (or not due to our own opinion on morals) why I ask do those that argue for Orcs lore and history to change to be more neutral in morality do you not argue for Mind Flayers lore to also change?
Totally agree. In D&D sentience is objective.
The reason that they're different in terms of rules is because Mind Flayers are built for killing and eating brains, and Orcs and Drow are not, and are player races. Mind Flayers are aberrations, Orcs and Drow are humanoids. There is a difference.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
It’s worth noting that even Maanzecorian, the “less” evil illithid god from Planescape, was still evil. Of course that was 25 years ago.
If you are thinking like a Mind Flayer, then you make a good point. To them who they are is normal and what they are doing is right. Is any creature/animal considered evil if that’s their essence of life? That’s a great question. Let’s look at it this way, if a human were to eat a human that’s seen as cannibalism and is classified as evil. If the Mind Flayer only is able to live by eating the brains of others than it is logical for them to do so in the act of self-preservation.
Another example, if a man were to attack you with the intent of killing you, would you not fight back? Would it be murder/evil to kill this man in self-defense of your own life? The Mind Flayer sees others as it’s source of food, like it has a choice? In our minds we think that this is pure evil and that it shouldn’t be done. If the Mind Flayers are aware that what they are doing is evil yet still choose to do this without a care in the world and not even try to find a different way, that is now evil with evil intent. How does someone know that what they are doing is evil if they don’t have a law? Can someone judge another person who doesn’t know the laws that you and everyone else lives by? Example: A person goes to someone’s house and isn’t aware that they have a few house rules, he does something that breaks the rules. Does the host have a right to judge a person for breaking the rules if the host himself neglected to tell him the rules?
How does the Mind Flayer know if that is evil in the first place? I’m curious as to if in a campaign someone was able to get to the Mind Flayer and get it to change its ways? But isn’t that the same as walking up to someone who has an Asian culture and saying,”Yo, you’re doing it wrong, you’re supposed to do it this way.” How does anyone think that’s going to go? Horribly.
Do’ Taba the Honest Merchant
Malwyn the Barkeeper of The Tales of Adventurers’ Tavern