Most full casters are also not *meant* to get s ton of stuff from their base classes. They're designed to derive their power from spells.
Think about all the dead levels in casting classes (mostly wiz or sorc) where there are no new class features. Those are not holes in design, those aren't flaws. Those are levels where all you get are more spell slots or higher spell slots, and it's designed this way. Spells are meant to be powerful and versatile, and essentially features unto themselves, wheras martial classes or even half-casters rely on more robust class features in order to stay competitive.
I always find it slightly disingenuous when people bash casters, especially wizards, for the class not giving you anything, especially looking at it from the spells-as-class-features standpoint.
I don’t recall if AD&D Magic-Users could use crossbows but if they could I probably had one. But I know for sure he had a dagger.
and compared to some other casters who have only their known spells, like sorcerers who at 5th level only know 6 spells (not including cantrips) compared to a 5th level wizard with 14 spells minimum in their book if they don’t know a spell they need that’s it. A wizard just needs a good night’s sleep and has 8 more options to choose from to prepare.
The crossbow was the most powerful of all of the ranged weapons that an Arcane Magic User could take. It was so commonplace that it would have been a meme if memes had existed back then.
Not until 3rd Edition. In 2nd Edition, the only weapons a single-class wizard got proficiancy options in were staffs, daggers, darts, and slings.
Ahh. Here I go getting my older editions mixed up again. (Either that or it was a houserule since crossbows historically were designed to be used by the untrained.) I guess back then it was slings we’re the things. Either way, whatever the strongest thing a Wizard could hit someone with from as far away as possible.
First level attack spells are on a par with level 11 cantrips, so spell mastery (one first level spell; increases to one first and one second at 18) some time during tier 3 seems fair. Probably level 12.
First level attack spells are on a par with level 11 cantrips, so spell mastery (one first level spell; increases to one first and one second at 18) some time during tier 3 seems fair. Probably level 12.
Thing is, you won't select attack cantrips. Shield would be a little to powerful at the level to use every turn.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
First level attack spells are on a par with level 11 cantrips, so spell mastery (one first level spell; increases to one first and one second at 18) some time during tier 3 seems fair. Probably level 12.
Thing is, you won't select attack cantrips. Shield would be a little to powerful at the level to use every turn.
True, could limit it to spells that take your action.
My vote: None of the Above. I would select that “Prepared Spell Slots” used to be a problem, but the way it works now is absolutely fine by me.
Aye, my thoughts exactly. Not to mention as a DM the thought of allowing any person to have access to their entire spell suit is not a comforting thought. But, that is a whole nother can of worms entirely.
Wizards are fine and far from broken. In fact, they are widely considered among the strongest classes in the game. Generally speaking, classes with prepared spells have significantly more spells they can dip into and prepare each day. Whereas spontaneous casters like Sorcerers and Bards have a limited number of known spells. Giving Wizards access to "know" every single spell in their spellbook and also giving them spontaneous casting would be GROSSLY overpowered.
You talk about class abilities saying they have the weakest while really underselling the power of some as well as just.. uuh.. CASTING SPELLS and just how powerful the Wizards spells actually are, the bulk of your class abilities are your spell progression.
Also sure the subclasses you might view as boring but the abilities are all strong, I mean I guess if you think Wild magic possibly happening on a die roll and turning you blue is AWESOME than... sure >.> Sorcerer has some flavor but lots of the subclass abilities are fairly meh just flavorful.
At the end of the day Wizards are still easily the best class this game has, and while it doesn't have baked in RP easy mode like Sorcerer or Warlock.. its still up to the player to actually role play. Kinda sounds like your a 'human fighters are BORING' type.. like yeah I guess if you make a boring Wizard he's gonna be a boring character to play..
I just found this thread, and I really like AnakinTheWeird's analysis of the wizard's prepared spell problem. The Wizard's big spell list makes it look like they have tons of options, but in reality they have the exact same number as the spellcasters who can switch their spells on a long rest, if not actually fewer options since many other classes get subclass-specific spells. A wizard's "real" spell list is whatever spells they have added to their book, since those are the only ones they can swap with on a long rest, which means their spell list is 6 at first level then increases by 2 for each level after that. If you always pick the highest-level spell you can, that means a wizard would have eight 1st lvl spells in their list, four 2nd, four 3rd, four 4th, ..., four 8th, and eight 9th. If the other classes are grabbing spells from Xanathar's, then the wizard has fewer spells than them for every spell level except for 9th. That is pretty bad for the class that is supposed to be the utility caster. Their only leg up is the ability to cast ritual spells that aren't prepared, which is a great boon, but I don't think is good enough to give them the title. The wizard also has the ability to expand their "spell list" by adding more spells to their book, but they have a long ways to go just to reach parity with other classes, and they will have to have access to those spells and it will cost them gold and downtime that other classes don't have to spend.
I also agree with your analysis of Arcane Recovery as boring and not useful enough. A sometimes overlooked fact about Sorcerers is that they can exchange their sorcery points for spell slots. If a sorcerer did so to all their sorcery points, they get the same or more spell slots back than a wizard would get from Arcane recovery. For example, a 14th lvl sorcerer can use their 14 sorcery points to get two 5th lvl spellslots, while a wizard could only get a 5th and a 2nd lvl spellslot. Therefore Wizards can't be defined as the class with the most spell slots, which means they have little going for them.
I think AnakinTheWeird's suggested solution, getting rid of prepared spells and reducing a wizard's spell slots in some way, is a good one that could work after some playtesting to find the right number of spell slots. I thought of another solution that might be interesting, too.
Wizards would have all the spells in their book prepared all the time (it makes logical sense), but they only learn three spells at lvl 1 and they only gain one spell per level after that. Basically, their spells known is cut in half, but the number of spells they can cast at any one point remains roughly the same since they have all of their spells prepared. Now they have to rely on their ability as wizards to add spells to their spellbook, which I feel is a very fun mechanic that isn't used as often as I would like. The reason why it is isn't used is because a wizard can only prepare roughly half the spells they learn through level up at any one point, so they have an abundance of backup spells they aren't using. If a wizard finds a new spell they can add to their book, which means the new spell was one that they didn't think useful enough to keep as a main spell or as a backup when they were choosing their spells after level up. If they didn't think it was useful then, they probably don't think it is useful now, and so why would they take the time and money to add it to their list just for it to languish with all the other backup spells? I've been a DM for a long time and I love giving my wizard PC's spellbooks as loot, but their excitement always fades soon after they read them. The spells inside the book that they consider good are already on their list, and so all that is left are spells that they consider bad or too situational to even be considered as a backup. What fun. If you could always cast all the spells in your spellbook, then you don't have to worry about this new "super-situational" spell not being prepared when the right situation does occur, because it is always prepared.
I also feel like this change would tie in with the wizard's theme. Now, a wizard's quest for magical knowledge has a more clear mechanical benefit, since any spell is potentially useful instead of just dead weight. Wizards are also supposed to learn magic from studying old books and talking to learned archmages, and it seems strange that they could simply learn two spells every level by, for example, just spamming fireball at a horde of orcs. One spell is enough, maybe your brilliant mind reverse engineered this spell after seeing it cast once or you invented it yourself, but now you've got to go to the library or loot the orc shaman's body to find a spellbook that can help you learn more arcane secrets and further your education. The wizard also feels like their efforts are paying off as they see more spells added to their list. They weren't just given these spells for leveling up, they had to go out and earn them, they had to find them and then they had to pay some of their own precious money to expand their spellbook.
This change would also make wizard easier to play at low level for new players, since they would have fewer spells to choose. At higher levels a player would have many more spells to choose from if they've been collecting them, but since they've been playing this character for a long time they know what they all do and so aren't often hit by analysis paralysis. I feel like choosing what spells to prepare after each long rest slows the game down, same as checking your spell list in the heat of battle to see if you prepared the correct spells, so I think that there is some potential this change could actually speed up the game.
This small rule change aims to make an experienced wizard with a couple levels under their belt the utility caster that they could only dream of being before.
Honestly, this system I just suggested might not work well for the official game, since the wizard player would have to rely on a benevolent DM giving them spells to copy and the gold to do so. AnakinTheWeird's idea would probably work better for an official system. But I think my suggestion could work really well for a homebrew, and I'm planning to test it out in my own campaign.
Lastly, comparing this edition to past editions isn't a super good argument. So what if wizard is less painful and frustrating to play than it was before? Shouldn't we keep trying to reduce frustration and pain by making further tweaks, like getting rid of prepared spells? Don't make current and future players suffer just because you had to.
Now here is someone who knows how to play a wizard properly!
I'm new to Wizards and I haven't figured out a good use for this spell - can you give me any examples why you think it's important?
It's just a fun utility spell. It's like what the Wicked Witch of the West does in the Wizard of Oz, you write a message in the sky for all to see. It doesn't have many practical applications in the average adventure, but with the right amount of creativity, it can be quite useful.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Now here is someone who knows how to play a wizard properly!
I'm new to Wizards and I haven't figured out a good use for this spell - can you give me any examples why you think it's important?
It's just a fun utility spell. It's like what the Wicked Witch of the West does in the Wizard of Oz, you write a message in the sky for all to see. It doesn't have many practical applications in the average adventure, but with the right amount of creativity, it can be quite useful.
Never used it before, but seems like a good way of long-distance communication.
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Life is very busy unfortunately, gone from most Pbp's indefinitely. If you'd like to contact me, I am on Discord at GreatAxeblade#7595, always happy to chat :)
Ok, if I ever play a wizard, I'm using that spell.
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Life is very busy unfortunately, gone from most Pbp's indefinitely. If you'd like to contact me, I am on Discord at GreatAxeblade#7595, always happy to chat :)
I‘m thinking of adding Proficiency Bonus to the number of prepared spells for Wizards and other prepared casters in my next homebrew. Gotta have to run the numbers and find out how to tie that to spontanous casters too though.
I‘m thinking of adding Proficiency Bonus to the number of prepared spells for Wizards and other prepared casters in my next homebrew. Gotta have to run the numbers and find out how to tie that to spontanous casters too though.
My recommendation is don't. Wizards really, really don't need a boost like that (for one thing, that means that a 1st level wizard with an 18 intelligence could prepare more spells than they have in their spellbook) and it just makes sorcerers even worse compared to wizards.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I‘m thinking of adding Proficiency Bonus to the number of prepared spells for Wizards and other prepared casters in my next homebrew. Gotta have to run the numbers and find out how to tie that to spontanous casters too though.
Why? Slots per day are equal for instance a wizard vs sorcerer at lvl 3 both have 4 first lvl and 2 second lvl slots, the difference is a wizard knows 10 spells and a sorcerer knows 4. Your suggestion is that the wizard ontop of already having a larger pool to pull from also needs need more spells prepped for those slots? come on now.. Lvl 3 Wizard with standard array can prep 6 spells a day, that's already more than the FOUR a sorcerer knows, they don't need even more. There will never be a point where the wizard has less spells prepped than the sorcerer knows in their progression
(this doesn't also take into consideration that wizards get arcane recovery, ritual casting or their arcane tradition for further oompf, while the sorcerer can either get spell slots OR use meta magic)
Most full casters are also not *meant* to get s ton of stuff from their base classes. They're designed to derive their power from spells.
Think about all the dead levels in casting classes (mostly wiz or sorc) where there are no new class features. Those are not holes in design, those aren't flaws. Those are levels where all you get are more spell slots or higher spell slots, and it's designed this way. Spells are meant to be powerful and versatile, and essentially features unto themselves, wheras martial classes or even half-casters rely on more robust class features in order to stay competitive.
I always find it slightly disingenuous when people bash casters, especially wizards, for the class not giving you anything, especially looking at it from the spells-as-class-features standpoint.
Ahh. Here I go getting my older editions mixed up again. (Either that or it was a houserule since crossbows historically were designed to be used by the untrained.) I guess back then it was slings we’re the things. Either way, whatever the strongest thing a Wizard could hit someone with from as far away as possible.
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War isn’t a school. Schools=/=Traditions. There are only 8 schools, but there can be many traditions.
And if you want a Tradition with nice features may I recommend Divination. Check it out. 😉
I think 6th would be too soon, maybe somewhere around 11th would be a better balance.
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First level attack spells are on a par with level 11 cantrips, so spell mastery (one first level spell; increases to one first and one second at 18) some time during tier 3 seems fair. Probably level 12.
Thing is, you won't select attack cantrips. Shield would be a little to powerful at the level to use every turn.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
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True, could limit it to spells that take your action.
Aye, my thoughts exactly. Not to mention as a DM the thought of allowing any person to have access to their entire spell suit is not a comforting thought. But, that is a whole nother can of worms entirely.
Wizards are fine and far from broken. In fact, they are widely considered among the strongest classes in the game. Generally speaking, classes with prepared spells have significantly more spells they can dip into and prepare each day. Whereas spontaneous casters like Sorcerers and Bards have a limited number of known spells. Giving Wizards access to "know" every single spell in their spellbook and also giving them spontaneous casting would be GROSSLY overpowered.
I just found this thread, and I really like AnakinTheWeird's analysis of the wizard's prepared spell problem. The Wizard's big spell list makes it look like they have tons of options, but in reality they have the exact same number as the spellcasters who can switch their spells on a long rest, if not actually fewer options since many other classes get subclass-specific spells. A wizard's "real" spell list is whatever spells they have added to their book, since those are the only ones they can swap with on a long rest, which means their spell list is 6 at first level then increases by 2 for each level after that. If you always pick the highest-level spell you can, that means a wizard would have eight 1st lvl spells in their list, four 2nd, four 3rd, four 4th, ..., four 8th, and eight 9th. If the other classes are grabbing spells from Xanathar's, then the wizard has fewer spells than them for every spell level except for 9th. That is pretty bad for the class that is supposed to be the utility caster. Their only leg up is the ability to cast ritual spells that aren't prepared, which is a great boon, but I don't think is good enough to give them the title. The wizard also has the ability to expand their "spell list" by adding more spells to their book, but they have a long ways to go just to reach parity with other classes, and they will have to have access to those spells and it will cost them gold and downtime that other classes don't have to spend.
I also agree with your analysis of Arcane Recovery as boring and not useful enough. A sometimes overlooked fact about Sorcerers is that they can exchange their sorcery points for spell slots. If a sorcerer did so to all their sorcery points, they get the same or more spell slots back than a wizard would get from Arcane recovery. For example, a 14th lvl sorcerer can use their 14 sorcery points to get two 5th lvl spellslots, while a wizard could only get a 5th and a 2nd lvl spellslot. Therefore Wizards can't be defined as the class with the most spell slots, which means they have little going for them.
I think AnakinTheWeird's suggested solution, getting rid of prepared spells and reducing a wizard's spell slots in some way, is a good one that could work after some playtesting to find the right number of spell slots. I thought of another solution that might be interesting, too.
Wizards would have all the spells in their book prepared all the time (it makes logical sense), but they only learn three spells at lvl 1 and they only gain one spell per level after that. Basically, their spells known is cut in half, but the number of spells they can cast at any one point remains roughly the same since they have all of their spells prepared. Now they have to rely on their ability as wizards to add spells to their spellbook, which I feel is a very fun mechanic that isn't used as often as I would like. The reason why it is isn't used is because a wizard can only prepare roughly half the spells they learn through level up at any one point, so they have an abundance of backup spells they aren't using. If a wizard finds a new spell they can add to their book, which means the new spell was one that they didn't think useful enough to keep as a main spell or as a backup when they were choosing their spells after level up. If they didn't think it was useful then, they probably don't think it is useful now, and so why would they take the time and money to add it to their list just for it to languish with all the other backup spells? I've been a DM for a long time and I love giving my wizard PC's spellbooks as loot, but their excitement always fades soon after they read them. The spells inside the book that they consider good are already on their list, and so all that is left are spells that they consider bad or too situational to even be considered as a backup. What fun. If you could always cast all the spells in your spellbook, then you don't have to worry about this new "super-situational" spell not being prepared when the right situation does occur, because it is always prepared.
I also feel like this change would tie in with the wizard's theme. Now, a wizard's quest for magical knowledge has a more clear mechanical benefit, since any spell is potentially useful instead of just dead weight. Wizards are also supposed to learn magic from studying old books and talking to learned archmages, and it seems strange that they could simply learn two spells every level by, for example, just spamming fireball at a horde of orcs. One spell is enough, maybe your brilliant mind reverse engineered this spell after seeing it cast once or you invented it yourself, but now you've got to go to the library or loot the orc shaman's body to find a spellbook that can help you learn more arcane secrets and further your education. The wizard also feels like their efforts are paying off as they see more spells added to their list. They weren't just given these spells for leveling up, they had to go out and earn them, they had to find them and then they had to pay some of their own precious money to expand their spellbook.
This change would also make wizard easier to play at low level for new players, since they would have fewer spells to choose. At higher levels a player would have many more spells to choose from if they've been collecting them, but since they've been playing this character for a long time they know what they all do and so aren't often hit by analysis paralysis. I feel like choosing what spells to prepare after each long rest slows the game down, same as checking your spell list in the heat of battle to see if you prepared the correct spells, so I think that there is some potential this change could actually speed up the game.
This small rule change aims to make an experienced wizard with a couple levels under their belt the utility caster that they could only dream of being before.
Honestly, this system I just suggested might not work well for the official game, since the wizard player would have to rely on a benevolent DM giving them spells to copy and the gold to do so. AnakinTheWeird's idea would probably work better for an official system. But I think my suggestion could work really well for a homebrew, and I'm planning to test it out in my own campaign.
Lastly, comparing this edition to past editions isn't a super good argument. So what if wizard is less painful and frustrating to play than it was before? Shouldn't we keep trying to reduce frustration and pain by making further tweaks, like getting rid of prepared spells? Don't make current and future players suffer just because you had to.
I'm new to Wizards and I haven't figured out a good use for this spell - can you give me any examples why you think it's important?
It's just a fun utility spell. It's like what the Wicked Witch of the West does in the Wizard of Oz, you write a message in the sky for all to see. It doesn't have many practical applications in the average adventure, but with the right amount of creativity, it can be quite useful.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Or when Voldemort would put his mark in the sky over a house after a kill.
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Never used it before, but seems like a good way of long-distance communication.
Life is very busy unfortunately, gone from most Pbp's indefinitely.
If you'd like to contact me, I am on Discord at GreatAxeblade#7595, always happy to chat :)
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It is. And since it’s a Ritual a Wiz never actually needs to prepare it and can cast it for feee with just 10 mins.
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Ok, if I ever play a wizard, I'm using that spell.
Life is very busy unfortunately, gone from most Pbp's indefinitely.
If you'd like to contact me, I am on Discord at GreatAxeblade#7595, always happy to chat :)
Homebrew races: ~Otterfolk! Play as a otter!~ Playable Dryad! (Literally just the monster sheet ported to player race)
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There is no such thing as a “bad” ritual spell if you’re a Wiz.
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I‘m thinking of adding Proficiency Bonus to the number of prepared spells for Wizards and other prepared casters in my next homebrew. Gotta have to run the numbers and find out how to tie that to spontanous casters too though.
#OpenDnD
My recommendation is don't. Wizards really, really don't need a boost like that (for one thing, that means that a 1st level wizard with an 18 intelligence could prepare more spells than they have in their spellbook) and it just makes sorcerers even worse compared to wizards.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Why? Slots per day are equal for instance a wizard vs sorcerer at lvl 3 both have 4 first lvl and 2 second lvl slots, the difference is a wizard knows 10 spells and a sorcerer knows 4. Your suggestion is that the wizard ontop of already having a larger pool to pull from also needs need more spells prepped for those slots? come on now.. Lvl 3 Wizard with standard array can prep 6 spells a day, that's already more than the FOUR a sorcerer knows, they don't need even more. There will never be a point where the wizard has less spells prepped than the sorcerer knows in their progression
(this doesn't also take into consideration that wizards get arcane recovery, ritual casting or their arcane tradition for further oompf, while the sorcerer can either get spell slots OR use meta magic)