And we have explained so many times why those don't work. This. Seriously. Feels. Like. Banging. My. Head. Against. A. Wall.
And as we have explained so many times, this is a class-based system; you make do with imperfect matches. Could the eldritch knight be less ineptly designed? Sure. Does this mean a new class is needed? No.
And we have explained so many times why those don't work. This. Seriously. Feels. Like. Banging. My. Head. Against. A. Wall.
And as we have explained so many times, this is a class-based system; you make do with imperfect matches. Could the eldritch knight be less ineptly designed? Sure. Does this mean a new class is needed? No.
And you keep mistaking the purpose of an arcane gish class. It is not meant to replace the Eldritch Knight, but instead fill a role that is large enough to fill a class, but not.
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Tell me how to do the Arcane Warrior then, Pantagruel. Do not use the words "Eldritch Knight", because if the damned Eldritch Knight was what anyone wanted people wouldn't be having this argument, hm?
You do it with an eldritch knight, or a sword bard, or a valor bard, or a bladesinger, or a hexblade. The fact you refuse to use the tools the game gives you doesn't mean the tools don't exist.
1.) The Eldritch Knight is objectively terrible. The only method it has for mixing magic and swordplay is SCAG cantrips, and any fighter which utilizes a SCAG cantrip past level 5 is a fighter that does not know how their character works. The Eldritch Knight is not an 'Arcane Warrior', it's a fighter that decided to take Magic Initiate as its entire subclass instead of just one feat. It is extremely bad at utilizing what sparse few heavily restricted spells it's allowed to learn, and it cannot in any way combine its magic with its bladeplay. it is, in every way, inferior to a regular Battlemaster in combat and its restriction to the Evocation and Abjuration schools means its out-of-combat magical utility is almost nonexistent. The Eldritch Knight is a badly designed subclass and whoever wrote it should feel embarrassed over it.
2.) Sword bards are also actually kinda terrible. People claim the sword bard is better than the valor bard, but that's because people overvalue their own personal DPR. Blade flourishes are mostly junk and consume badly needed Bardic Inspirations elsewhere, and again - sword bards cannot utilize magic and bladeplay at the same time. They only ever get to use one or the other, and that is not any kind of 'Arcane Warrior'. Valor bards are better and I actually quite like Valor bards. But they're not 'arcane warriors' either, they cannot combine magic and swordplay. As well: why should anyone who wants to play an Arcane Warrior be required to have extensive musical talent before they can do so? That is serious horseshit, and not okay.
3.) Bladesingers are an abomination. Once again, they cannot combine magic and swordplay, and their entire subclass is built around a mechanic that is simultaneously annoyingly jank and ridiculously overpowered. Yes, Bladesingers can achieve an AC of seventy-three and a movement speed of eight hundred feet per turn. They still fight like slap nerds and are almost never justified in actually using their swords, since the "Blade" song doesn't actually impact their melee whatsoever.
4.) The Hexblade is strictly inferior to a regular warlock who takes one spell - Eldritch Blast - and one invication - Agonizing Blast. An EB spam warlock can do for free what the Hexblade has to expend every possible build resource at their disposal and every single in-game resource they accrue through the day to accomplish. At no point in a Hexblade's existence is that hexblade any better off using their blade than they are the basic tool expected of every warlock ever.
See the through-line here, Pantagruel? None of these characters can use spellcraft and swordplay anywhere neare the same time, and each of them is always better off using one or the other. There's no point in their 'lesser' half. Even the Valor bard, which I'd consider the closest option, is generally held to be better off casting spells than attacking and utilizing its martial capacity. It's not good at fighting. The Sword bard is worse at fighting, the Bladesinger is absolutely terrible at fighting, and the Hexblade has no reason to try and be good at fighting - and even when it decides to try to be good at fighting anyways, a regular-ass fighter beats it every day of the week.
None of these classes you mentioned are an effective combination of arcane power and martial might. They're primarily one with a completely pointless for-flavor splash of the other and that's infuriating.
I agree with all these except Hexblade....they can actually do more damage than an EB warlock but it costs everything...Basically they have to use all their invocations to up damage (Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker, Eldritch Smite, Improved Pact weapon...etc..)
The rest are great examples that the best gish in the game isnt a straight build....its a Scoradin (Sorcerer/Paladin) and its not even close.
I agree with all these except Hexblade....they can actually do more damage than an EB warlock but it costs everything...Basically they have to use all their invocations to up damage (Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker, Eldritch Smite, Improved Pact weapon...etc..)
The rest are great examples that the best gish in the game isnt a straight build....its a Scoradin (Sorcerer/Paladin) and its not even close.
A hexblade can be a decent gish character, but they do have to give all that they have (spell slots, invocations, feats) to be able to be good, and at that point, you're not playing a warlock, you're playing a build. But, they cannot successfully merge their spells with their martial power and be good with that. It's very frustrating (I know from personal experience, as someone who is playing a hexblade). Everyone else can have their cake and eat it too, but Hexblade's can't.
Sorcadins don't count. They're still paladins, which are divine.
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Countercharm is easy to explain. 'Because having knowledge of charms results in having knowledge of how to counter or resist them.' If anything, the question is begged why enchantment wizards do not have a countercharm ability.
Inspire others... they blend the two worlds, the mundane with the arcane. That alone is a source of inspiration for others.
Being able to cast 9th level spells or not... now we are coming back to the question of how, exactly, equality is defined. Perfect equality is something likely impossible to reach, since you are trying to equalize apples and oranges.
If you want to stretch a reskin so much, you might as well reflavor battlemasters into wizards. There's not reason why a gish should have countercharm, but there is one for bards (also, the ability sucks).
Stretching the theme of an ability is a weakass argument. Inspiration has sense being a general gish's feature.
Equal fighing, equal casting. Half caster, half fighter. It's not so hard to imagine, we already have two classes as an example of this (paladin, ranger). You can't compare apples and oranges, but fuji and granny smith are similar enough.
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WOW! Everyone hating on the hexblade. IDK about you guys, but I love it. I Also view sorcadins as a 'gish' as nothing in the description of 'gish' says they cannot be divine, but pretty much EVERYONE else I have said that to disagrees. Please dont make a new day long convo out of this.
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
So then, is the issue with a Gish character damage output after all then? Whatever happened to the 'Gandalf' or 'Warrior Mage' model, wielding sword in one hand and bolt spell in the other, for versatility, rather than maximized dpr?
Or the Stark model... focus on enchanting and build high end designer equipment to handle your 'buffed weapon and armor' needs.
Not damage output, exactly, but they have to know what they're good at and be good at that thing. Hexblades don't know if they want to be OP Eldritch Blast spammers, or hexing gishes who blow through their fuel in 2 rounds. Eldritch Knights don't know whether they want to be bad at casting or bad at fighting. Valor bards don't know if they want to be support warlord-type characters, or singing gishes. Swords bards want to be battlemasters, but not be good at it. Bladesingers don't have any coherent identity, and should be erased from D&D 5e.
It's not exactly about dealing high damage, but have to know what they want to do, and do it well. None of the current arcane gishes can do that.
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WOW! Everyone hating on the hexblade. IDK about you guys, but I love it. I Also view sorcadins as a 'gish' as nothing in the description of 'gish' says they cannot be divine, but pretty much EVERYONE else I have said that to disagrees. Please dont make a new day long convo out of this.
When I talk about a Gish class, I mean an arcane gish. Paladins are divine gishes, Rangers are primal gishes. Paladins are great gishes, and are an example of how a gish half-caster class can be done well.
Have you played a hexblade? They're good, but don't know what they want to do.
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The problem with the other gish classes is mostly that Wizards didn't pay attention to their own action economy; why would you sacrifice a fighter action for a subpar spellcasting, or a spellcaster action for a subpar fighter action. However, the fact that it's a problem with all arcane gish classes tells us that the need isn't for a new class, the need is to fix existing mechanics. Which probably means fixing it with spells and/or feats.
WOW! Everyone hating on the hexblade. IDK about you guys, but I love it. I Also view sorcadins as a 'gish' as nothing in the description of 'gish' says they cannot be divine, but pretty much EVERYONE else I have said that to disagrees. Please dont make a new day long convo out of this.
When I talk about a Gish class, I mean an arcane gish. Paladins are divine gishes, Rangers are primal gishes. Paladins are great gishes, and are an example of how a gish half-caster class can be done well.
Have you played a hexblade? They're good, but don't know what they want to do.
I have played a hexblade.....four? times, and a hexblade/pally multiclass four times. One of them is currently my second favourite character, and I loved playing all of them. Between hex, and armour of Agathys, the blade invos (I only take thirsting, smite and lifedrinker). The only problem is the action economy. You want to cast hex, use hexblades curse, and get a BA attack in if you have PAM.....it takes a few rounds to set up, but the DPR is insane.
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
The problem with the other gish classes is mostly that Wizards didn't pay attention to their own action economy; why would you sacrifice a fighter action for a subpar spellcasting, or a spellcaster action for a subpar fighter action. However, the fact that it's a problem with all arcane gish classes tells us that the need isn't for a new class, the need is to fix existing mechanics. Which probably means fixing it with spells and/or feats.
WotC has said they're not fixing subclasses, so that's not going to happen. If they're not going to fix their broken gish subclasses, the next best solution is to make a new class.
Paladins are divine gishes, but are done in a satisfactory way, and normally don't have a bunch of action economy dilemmas.
Rangers are primal gishes, and are done in a way that is a good idea, but executed poorly. With the CFV in TCoE, this problem will hopefully be fixed, and we will have a second satisfactory gish class.
We have the other 2 types of spellcasting, so we need an arcane gish class. They could be done in a satisfactory and balanced way, while still being distinct.
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I have played a hexblade.....four? times, and a hexblade/pally multiclass four times. One of them is currently my second favourite character, and I loved playing all of them. Between hex, and armour of Agathys, the blade invos (I only take thirsting, smite and lifedrinker). The only problem is the action economy. You want to cast hex, use hexblades curse, and get a BA attack in if you have PAM.....it takes a few rounds to set up, but the DPR is insane.
But you're not thinking in comparison to what you could have done if you focused on Eldritch Blast. With Hex, Hexblade's Curse, and Agonizing Blast you could be doing much more damage than you currently are, without the help of magic weapons. If the Hexblade is meant to be a gish subclass, it should be able to be better at being a gish than a caster.
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The problem with the other gish classes is mostly that Wizards didn't pay attention to their own action economy; why would you sacrifice a fighter action for a subpar spellcasting, or a spellcaster action for a subpar fighter action. However, the fact that it's a problem with all arcane gish classes tells us that the need isn't for a new class, the need is to fix existing mechanics. Which probably means fixing it with spells and/or feats.
WotC has said they're not fixing subclasses, so that's not going to happen. If they're not going to fix their broken gish subclasses, the next best solution is to make a new class.
Paladins are divine gishes, but are done in a satisfactory way, and normally don't have a bunch of action economy dilemmas.
Rangers are primal gishes, and are done in a way that is a good idea, but executed poorly. With the CFV in TCoE, this problem will hopefully be fixed, and we will have a second satisfactory gish class.
We have the other 2 types of spellcasting, so we need an arcane gish class. They could be done in a satisfactory and balanced way, while still being distinct.
Unless I am missing something, I only count one...
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Apologies if I came across harsh, GoodBovine, but I'm a gay man with lots of LGBT friends who deal being disrespected for their gender and identity on a regular basis. It's very raw for me.
The problem with the other gish classes is mostly that Wizards didn't pay attention to their own action economy; why would you sacrifice a fighter action for a subpar spellcasting, or a spellcaster action for a subpar fighter action. However, the fact that it's a problem with all arcane gish classes tells us that the need isn't for a new class, the need is to fix existing mechanics. Which probably means fixing it with spells and/or feats.
WotC has said they're not fixing subclasses, so that's not going to happen. If they're not going to fix their broken gish subclasses, the next best solution is to make a new class.
Paladins are divine gishes, but are done in a satisfactory way, and normally don't have a bunch of action economy dilemmas.
Rangers are primal gishes, and are done in a way that is a good idea, but executed poorly. With the CFV in TCoE, this problem will hopefully be fixed, and we will have a second satisfactory gish class.
We have the other 2 types of spellcasting, so we need an arcane gish class. They could be done in a satisfactory and balanced way, while still being distinct.
Unless I am missing something, I only count one...
Psionic.....?
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"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Unless I am missing something, I only count one...
Reread my post, maybe that will clarify. There's Primal, Divine, and Arcane spellcasting (some group primal and divine together, but that's BS). We have a Primal gish class, a Divine gish class, and we have space for an Arcane gish class.
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I have played a hexblade.....four? times, and a hexblade/pally multiclass four times. One of them is currently my second favourite character, and I loved playing all of them. Between hex, and armour of Agathys, the blade invos (I only take thirsting, smite and lifedrinker). The only problem is the action economy. You want to cast hex, use hexblades curse, and get a BA attack in if you have PAM.....it takes a few rounds to set up, but the DPR is insane.
But you're not thinking in comparison to what you could have done if you focused on Eldritch Blast. With Hex, Hexblade's Curse, and Agonizing Blast you could be doing much more damage than you currently are, without the help of magic weapons. If the Hexblade is meant to be a gish subclass, it should be able to be better at being a gish than a caster.
Have YOU ever played a hexblade? even if they are not as optimized as an EB warlock (Which IMO they are), they are a blast to play. Also, you do more damage, due to eldritch smite. And PAM helps with dpr. And Lifedrinker.
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
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And as we have explained so many times, this is a class-based system; you make do with imperfect matches. Could the eldritch knight be less ineptly designed? Sure. Does this mean a new class is needed? No.
And you keep mistaking the purpose of an arcane gish class. It is not meant to replace the Eldritch Knight, but instead fill a role that is large enough to fill a class, but not.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I agree with all these except Hexblade....they can actually do more damage than an EB warlock but it costs everything...Basically they have to use all their invocations to up damage (Thirsting Blade, Lifedrinker, Eldritch Smite, Improved Pact weapon...etc..)
The rest are great examples that the best gish in the game isnt a straight build....its a Scoradin (Sorcerer/Paladin) and its not even close.
A hexblade can be a decent gish character, but they do have to give all that they have (spell slots, invocations, feats) to be able to be good, and at that point, you're not playing a warlock, you're playing a build. But, they cannot successfully merge their spells with their martial power and be good with that. It's very frustrating (I know from personal experience, as someone who is playing a hexblade). Everyone else can have their cake and eat it too, but Hexblade's can't.
Sorcadins don't count. They're still paladins, which are divine.
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If you want to stretch a reskin so much, you might as well reflavor battlemasters into wizards. There's not reason why a gish should have countercharm, but there is one for bards (also, the ability sucks).
Stretching the theme of an ability is a weakass argument. Inspiration has sense being a general gish's feature.
Equal fighing, equal casting. Half caster, half fighter. It's not so hard to imagine, we already have two classes as an example of this (paladin, ranger). You can't compare apples and oranges, but fuji and granny smith are similar enough.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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WOW! Everyone hating on the hexblade. IDK about you guys, but I love it. I Also view sorcadins as a 'gish' as nothing in the description of 'gish' says they cannot be divine, but pretty much EVERYONE else I have said that to disagrees. Please dont make a new day long convo out of this.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Not damage output, exactly, but they have to know what they're good at and be good at that thing. Hexblades don't know if they want to be OP Eldritch Blast spammers, or hexing gishes who blow through their fuel in 2 rounds. Eldritch Knights don't know whether they want to be bad at casting or bad at fighting. Valor bards don't know if they want to be support warlord-type characters, or singing gishes. Swords bards want to be battlemasters, but not be good at it. Bladesingers don't have any coherent identity, and should be erased from D&D 5e.
It's not exactly about dealing high damage, but have to know what they want to do, and do it well. None of the current arcane gishes can do that.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
When I talk about a Gish class, I mean an arcane gish. Paladins are divine gishes, Rangers are primal gishes. Paladins are great gishes, and are an example of how a gish half-caster class can be done well.
Have you played a hexblade? They're good, but don't know what they want to do.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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The problem with the other gish classes is mostly that Wizards didn't pay attention to their own action economy; why would you sacrifice a fighter action for a subpar spellcasting, or a spellcaster action for a subpar fighter action. However, the fact that it's a problem with all arcane gish classes tells us that the need isn't for a new class, the need is to fix existing mechanics. Which probably means fixing it with spells and/or feats.
I have played a hexblade.....four? times, and a hexblade/pally multiclass four times. One of them is currently my second favourite character, and I loved playing all of them. Between hex, and armour of Agathys, the blade invos (I only take thirsting, smite and lifedrinker). The only problem is the action economy. You want to cast hex, use hexblades curse, and get a BA attack in if you have PAM.....it takes a few rounds to set up, but the DPR is insane.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Yurei's a woman, Wren. Don't misgender her.
It is a term, I dont think anyone is purposely trying to misgender anyone dude.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
WotC has said they're not fixing subclasses, so that's not going to happen. If they're not going to fix their broken gish subclasses, the next best solution is to make a new class.
Paladins are divine gishes, but are done in a satisfactory way, and normally don't have a bunch of action economy dilemmas.
Rangers are primal gishes, and are done in a way that is a good idea, but executed poorly. With the CFV in TCoE, this problem will hopefully be fixed, and we will have a second satisfactory gish class.
We have the other 2 types of spellcasting, so we need an arcane gish class. They could be done in a satisfactory and balanced way, while still being distinct.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
But you're not thinking in comparison to what you could have done if you focused on Eldritch Blast. With Hex, Hexblade's Curse, and Agonizing Blast you could be doing much more damage than you currently are, without the help of magic weapons. If the Hexblade is meant to be a gish subclass, it should be able to be better at being a gish than a caster.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Unless I am missing something, I only count one...
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Apologies if I came across harsh, GoodBovine, but I'm a gay man with lots of LGBT friends who deal being disrespected for their gender and identity on a regular basis. It's very raw for me.
Psionic.....?
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
Reread my post, maybe that will clarify. There's Primal, Divine, and Arcane spellcasting (some group primal and divine together, but that's BS). We have a Primal gish class, a Divine gish class, and we have space for an Arcane gish class.
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That's magic, not spellcasting (please don't start the debate again). Arcane, Divine, Primal.
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Have YOU ever played a hexblade? even if they are not as optimized as an EB warlock (Which IMO they are), they are a blast to play. Also, you do more damage, due to eldritch smite. And PAM helps with dpr. And Lifedrinker.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.