What I stated was that in 5e, virtually all buffs are concentration based, meaning only one up at a time. Now if you want to explain how that is not a barrier to the concept of a self buffing arcane / martial hybrid class designed 50/50 arcane/martial in harmony (rather than multiclassing), please do so.
But 'you made up an argument' is not a counter to someone presenting an argument.
No, not virtually all buffs are concentration. Those are spells that buff, a lot of class based ones don't require concentration. It is not a barrier because you can either choose between buffing or damage dealing at a specific moment, or you can design in class buffs that don't require concentration.
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as for whether buff spells should ever even be non-concentration, the game is designed so that they are supposed to be concentration which you can tell by looking at spells such as fire shield.
There is no actual singing skill. It is 'performance,' which can be witty banter or dry humour, or even interpretive dance, which, frankly is not that different from conventional spellcaster thumb-twiddling, just more artistic.
I am quite certain that I mentioned this earlier in the thread but to me, the biggest barrier to the form of Gish that seems to be desired is that pretty much every buff in 5e is concentration, meaning only at most one at a time. So no stacking defenses let alone stacking defenses with offenses.
And that is a core design principal of the game, so tricky to get around.
Bards typically sing/play instruments. The 3 gish subclasses of bard are singing gishes, and aren't bladesingers supposed to sing? Also, why should a gish be limited to being a stabby bard, a stabby wizard, or a fighty magicker?
What does buffing concentration spells have to do with arcane gishes? Also, they could get buffing/shielding abilities other than concentration spells.
I just looked it up on the wiki. Apparently they have nothing to do with singing, the name comes from the whistle of their blades. That's a stupid name, then.
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RPGs are a very, very, very extremely scarlet red water.
In such a market, competitors need to distinguish themselves by being different from their competitors.
We already have a DnD with a huge number of classes. We really shouldn't strive to have another one. 5e needs to be different.
5e is different, and adding 7 more classes is not a doorway to hundreds more. Stop repeating strawmen.
7 is a class explosion
It really isn't. Previous editions with class explosions had dozens of classes.
It really is and the number of classes in previous editions is irrelevant to that fact.
What's your definition of explosion? If a halfway filled balloon increases in volume by 50ish%, that doesn't make it explode.
The game decreases in quality as more classes are added because the number of possible rule combinations increases and it becomes impossible to check them all. That will happen long before another 7 classes are added.
The game depends on being simple so that it can bring in new players. Having 20 classes is going to look overwhelming to a newbie. You might want to look at the principle of over choice.
What I stated was that in 5e, virtually all buffs are concentration based, meaning only one up at a time. Now if you want to explain how that is not a barrier to the concept of a self buffing arcane / martial hybrid class designed 50/50 arcane/martial in harmony (rather than multiclassing), please do so.
But 'you made up an argument' is not a counter to someone presenting an argument.
No, not virtually all buffs are concentration. Those are spells that buff, a lot of class based ones don't require concentration. It is not a barrier because you can either choose between buffing or damage dealing at a specific moment, or you can design in class buffs that don't require concentration.
You said you do not want OP, but you want an arcane class that ignores a primary limitation on arcane buffs (or even divine buffs for that matter) ?
Ugh, why can people not understand this?!?! It should be balanced. If they get buffs that don't require concentration (like many classes do), they would be balanced.
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The game decreases in quality as more classes are added because the number of possible rule combinations increases and it becomes impossible to check them all. That will happen long before another 7 classes are added.
The game depends on being simple so that it can bring in new players. Having 20 classes is going to look overwhelming to a newbie. You might want to look at the principle of over choice.
That's BS. If the game had one class, that would not be better than the 13 it currently has. More options =/= Destruction of D&D. Also, you don't need to introduce new characters to all 20 classes when they start. In fact, you might want to consider having them start with the Sidekick classes if you're so vehemently opposed to more options for new players.
The game can be simple with 20 options for class. There are over 80 races in the game, and I don't see new players not joining the game because of them.
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What I stated was that in 5e, virtually all buffs are concentration based, meaning only one up at a time. Now if you want to explain how that is not a barrier to the concept of a self buffing arcane / martial hybrid class designed 50/50 arcane/martial in harmony (rather than multiclassing), please do so.
But 'you made up an argument' is not a counter to someone presenting an argument.
No, not virtually all buffs are concentration. Those are spells that buff, a lot of class based ones don't require concentration. It is not a barrier because you can either choose between buffing or damage dealing at a specific moment, or you can design in class buffs that don't require concentration.
You said you do not want OP, but you want an arcane class that ignores a primary limitation on arcane buffs (or even divine buffs for that matter) ?
Ugh, why can people not understand this?!?! It should be balanced. If they get buffs that don't require concentration (like many classes do), they would be balanced.
When they can stack? Which is the primary reason for wanting no concentration requirement? And what, exactly is your trade off for this?
A fighter getting extra attacks does not require concentration.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
Ugh, why can people not understand this?!?! It should be balanced. If they get buffs that don't require concentration (like many classes do), they would be balanced.
Buffs that don't require concentration are not completely unacceptable, but they need severe restrictions (typically, they're non-stacking unique class features).
The game decreases in quality as more classes are added because the number of possible rule combinations increases and it becomes impossible to check them all. That will happen long before another 7 classes are added.
The game depends on being simple so that it can bring in new players. Having 20 classes is going to look overwhelming to a newbie. You might want to look at the principle of over choice.
That's BS. If the game had one class, that would not be better than the 13 it currently has. More options =/= Destruction of D&D. Also, you don't need to introduce new characters to all 20 classes when they start. In fact, you might want to consider having them start with the Sidekick classes if you're so vehemently opposed to more options for new players.
The game can be simple with 20 options for class. There are over 80 races in the game, and I don't see new players not joining the game because of them.
I never said the game should have one class and I certainly never said that having one class would make it easier than 13. There is a balance between too few and too many.
Kotath: I still haven't seen you suggest how one would accomplish any of the objectives set out for any of these classes. You continue to insist, billions of posts into the thread, that every last conceivable thing any player could ever want to do in the entire history and the entire future of all tabletop roleplaying can be accomplished with the existing set of classes and subclasses if one simply Flavors Harder(C). Take up the challenge already. Third and I both have asked several times that people kvetching about the whole "but new stuff would breeaaak D&D DX" and how there's absolutely no need for anything new ever again Show Their Bloody Work and present how they would solve the problem.
The Eldritch Knight is provably, objectively godawful and accomplishes precisely none of what an arcane warrior combining spell and blade should accomplish. The paladin manages to combine spell and blade within hailing distance of properly, but Smite spells are terrible and the paladin is also saddled with nearly infinite Divine Goodboi Baggage that very few badass spellblades are really looking for. The Bladesinger is an abomination and should've been slain at birth, and everybody who's ever lived hates the Hexblade for single-handedly initiating the Great Charisma Caster ******** we've all had to deal with since it dropped.
I want to strike with arcane power and martial fury in the same single, fluid motion, i.e. within the same action. Not "have a small handful of poorly-chosen spells but otherwise just be a fighter with no useful subclass features", i.e. the Eldritch Knight. Not "strike with DIVINE power and martial fury whilst also being a Lawful Stupid turdbaby delighting in driving my so-called friends insane by ruining their every plan with copious short-sighted Moral Outrages", i.e. the paladin. Not "be the worst wizard subclass ever designed and I include all the dodgy UA and the 'why does this even exist' School of Enchantment here", i.e. the Bladesinger. Not "nobody ever takes this class past level 2 except that half-orc played by Travis Willingham, the big guy on CR who actively avoids knowing what he's doing because he has more fun that way", i.e. the Hexblade.
Gimme something, Kotath. And be prepared to have your ideas picked to pieces and/or rejected out of hand the same way you've been poo-pooing and rejecting every last thing the rest of us have been saying. Because apparently now I'm angry, and it's time for Rei to start chewing faces. Congratulations: you've been volunteered.
Yurei, You don't get to tell other people who can and cannot comment.
Then say something useful. Saying "Newbies couldn't possibly get into D&D if we had more than 13 classes" is not useful. They did it before 5e culled everything, they can do it again. Tasha's Cauldron has the 'Sidekick' classes designed for people who can't be assed to learn how to play D&D but want to play with their buddies anyways. Which, hey! Technically, that's three brand new classes in Tasha's! Whelp, guess you're done now, because we're up to 16 classes and clearly that means 5e is doomed forever. Pack it up, ladies and germs. We're all done here, the game is clearly dead forever.
The game decreases in quality as more classes are added because the number of possible rule combinations increases and it becomes impossible to check them all. That will happen long before another 7 classes are added.
The game depends on being simple so that it can bring in new players. Having 20 classes is going to look overwhelming to a newbie. You might want to look at the principle of over choice.
That's BS. If the game had one class, that would not be better than the 13 it currently has. More options =/= Destruction of D&D. Also, you don't need to introduce new characters to all 20 classes when they start. In fact, you might want to consider having them start with the Sidekick classes if you're so vehemently opposed to more options for new players.
The game can be simple with 20 options for class. There are over 80 races in the game, and I don't see new players not joining the game because of them.
I never said the game should have one class and I certainly never said that having one class would make it easier than 13. There is a balance between too few and too many.
You said that more classes equals a ruined game because too many options would be impossible to keep track of. If you don't like options, just limit your players to one class, then you don't have to keep track of anything.
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Ugh, why can people not understand this?!?! It should be balanced. If they get buffs that don't require concentration (like many classes do), they would be balanced.
Buffs that don't require concentration are not completely unacceptable, but they need severe restrictions (typically, they're non-stacking unique class features).
Thanks for telling me something I already know and have already said.
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The game decreases in quality as more classes are added because the number of possible rule combinations increases and it becomes impossible to check them all. That will happen long before another 7 classes are added.
The game depends on being simple so that it can bring in new players. Having 20 classes is going to look overwhelming to a newbie. You might want to look at the principle of over choice.
That's BS. If the game had one class, that would not be better than the 13 it currently has. More options =/= Destruction of D&D. Also, you don't need to introduce new characters to all 20 classes when they start. In fact, you might want to consider having them start with the Sidekick classes if you're so vehemently opposed to more options for new players.
The game can be simple with 20 options for class. There are over 80 races in the game, and I don't see new players not joining the game because of them.
I never said the game should have one class and I certainly never said that having one class would make it easier than 13. There is a balance between too few and too many.
You said that more classes equals a ruined game because too many options would be impossible to keep track of. If you don't like options, just limit your players to one class, then you don't have to keep track of anything.
Again, I never said the game should have one class and I certainly never said that having one class would make it easier than 13. There is a balance between too few and too many.
I am so gorram done with all the deliberate obtuseness and general bottom-basement 'arguments' on this one, Joel. Absolutely nobody who's telling everyone to shut the **** up and stop asking for new options in D&D is arguing in good faith anymore. The rest of us put in a ton of effort trying to show where unused design space existed and where there's room and places for new content to give players exciting new options. The Wrens and Kotaths and such have spent sixty-seven pages now telling us to shut up, **** off, and just play bad subclasses badly with a thin, pallid veneer of Imagination(C), like we're all somehow incapable of understanding how reskinning works.
I'm sick of it, Joel. How can people be this aggressively, intractably ignorant for this long?
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It really is and the number of classes in previous editions is irrelevant to that fact.
No, not virtually all buffs are concentration. Those are spells that buff, a lot of class based ones don't require concentration. It is not a barrier because you can either choose between buffing or damage dealing at a specific moment, or you can design in class buffs that don't require concentration.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
as for whether buff spells should ever even be non-concentration, the game is designed so that they are supposed to be concentration which you can tell by looking at spells such as fire shield.
What's your definition of explosion? If a halfway filled balloon increases in volume by 50ish%, that doesn't make it explode.
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Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Technically no, they are not supposed to :)
I just looked it up on the wiki. Apparently they have nothing to do with singing, the name comes from the whistle of their blades. That's a stupid name, then.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
The game decreases in quality as more classes are added because the number of possible rule combinations increases and it becomes impossible to check them all. That will happen long before another 7 classes are added.
The game depends on being simple so that it can bring in new players. Having 20 classes is going to look overwhelming to a newbie. You might want to look at the principle of over choice.
Ugh, why can people not understand this?!?! It should be balanced. If they get buffs that don't require concentration (like many classes do), they would be balanced.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
That's BS. If the game had one class, that would not be better than the 13 it currently has. More options =/= Destruction of D&D. Also, you don't need to introduce new characters to all 20 classes when they start. In fact, you might want to consider having them start with the Sidekick classes if you're so vehemently opposed to more options for new players.
The game can be simple with 20 options for class. There are over 80 races in the game, and I don't see new players not joining the game because of them.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
A fighter getting extra attacks does not require concentration.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
If they're minor enough, sure they can stack. Paladin auras stack. Why do you need a trade-off for giving them buffs? All classes receive them.
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Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Buffs that don't require concentration are not completely unacceptable, but they need severe restrictions (typically, they're non-stacking unique class features).
I never said the game should have one class and I certainly never said that having one class would make it easier than 13. There is a balance between too few and too many.
Yurei, You don't get to tell other people who can and cannot comment.
Can everyone try to calm down and deescalate? I don't want this to become yet another locked thread.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Then say something useful. Saying "Newbies couldn't possibly get into D&D if we had more than 13 classes" is not useful. They did it before 5e culled everything, they can do it again. Tasha's Cauldron has the 'Sidekick' classes designed for people who can't be assed to learn how to play D&D but want to play with their buddies anyways. Which, hey! Technically, that's three brand new classes in Tasha's! Whelp, guess you're done now, because we're up to 16 classes and clearly that means 5e is doomed forever. Pack it up, ladies and germs. We're all done here, the game is clearly dead forever.
Please do not contact or message me.
You said that more classes equals a ruined game because too many options would be impossible to keep track of. If you don't like options, just limit your players to one class, then you don't have to keep track of anything.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Thanks for telling me something I already know and have already said.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Again, I never said the game should have one class and I certainly never said that having one class would make it easier than 13. There is a balance between too few and too many.
I am so gorram done with all the deliberate obtuseness and general bottom-basement 'arguments' on this one, Joel. Absolutely nobody who's telling everyone to shut the **** up and stop asking for new options in D&D is arguing in good faith anymore. The rest of us put in a ton of effort trying to show where unused design space existed and where there's room and places for new content to give players exciting new options. The Wrens and Kotaths and such have spent sixty-seven pages now telling us to shut up, **** off, and just play bad subclasses badly with a thin, pallid veneer of Imagination(C), like we're all somehow incapable of understanding how reskinning works.
I'm sick of it, Joel. How can people be this aggressively, intractably ignorant for this long?
Please do not contact or message me.