Okay, the general term could be Omen or something like that. Jinxes will be the Black Magic version of it, Charms for Grey Magic, and Blessings for White Magic. That could work.
(I also was thinking of giving them an ability like Pact Boons, but I'm not sure how to properly differentiate it from the Pact Boon. One could allow them to get other classes' spells in their Grimoire, and similar benefits like this.)
I wouldn’t. I would let the “omens” be that for this class. And actually I would not call it “omens” because that’s a way cooler name for some sort of Divination class feature for this class.
What would be another neutral term to use then? Incantation maybe, or chant?
I second Third's challenge. Kotath, Lizard, Templar, all the rest.
You're so absolutely, eternally convinced that no new classes are required every and literally everything can be done with either a reflavor or a tweak of an existing subclass? Prove it.
Show me how fill these design spaces. Show me how an Eldritch Knight can fluidly weave arcane and martial power into a single action. Show me how the god-botherers can become a completely godless practitioner of the Old Arts. We've put out a ton of design and concept work for new class options; y'all have just been giving us the sass. Put your time where your mouth is and put in some effort y'own damn selves, hm?
EDIT: Catch up after work interruption. Templar's on board. Your turns, Lizard/Kotath.
I think I understand what BigLizard is saying now and agree. I think we're just coming at the same problem from the opposite directions.
The thing is asking for more classes is a symptom of the overall problem. And it doesn't matter how we rephrase the question to mean something a bit different, 5e as a whole is incapable of delivering that, and no amount of new books, classes, subclasses, etc will fix its core issues. It's not flexible, and now the result is both a ton of content and little content at the same time.
It's why at this point I'm just hoping for a 5.5e or a 6e, but those would require WotC to understand the problem, which it shows no signs of doing so.
It's why at this point I'm just hoping for a 5.5e or a 6e, but those would require WotC to understand the problem, which it shows no signs of doing so.
Plus they already promised that new editions from now on would be backwards compatible with 5e.
Okay, the general term could be Omen or something like that. Jinxes will be the Black Magic version of it, Charms for Grey Magic, and Blessings for White Magic. That could work.
(I also was thinking of giving them an ability like Pact Boons, but I'm not sure how to properly differentiate it from the Pact Boon. One could allow them to get other classes' spells in their Grimoire, and similar benefits like this.)
I wouldn’t. I would let the “omens” be that for this class. And actually I would not call it “omens” because that’s a way cooler name for some sort of Divination class feature for this class.
What would be another neutral term to use then? Incantation maybe, or chant?
Sure, or Rite maybe.
They should be called invocations because the more he works on the class, the more it becomes what the Warlock should have been.
This debate is over whether new classes should be created or just new subclasses, but what is actually being discussed is the problem with the design of the existing classes.
BigLizard is asking for every single specific individual DM to do eighty percent of their own game design.
At that point, why not do the first twenty percent too and then not bother paying Wizards of the Coast hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars?
I've been playing freeform games for north of twenty years. I don't need rules. I don't need dice. I don't need somebody else's ideas. If I'm paying for somebody else's ideas, those ideas had best be compelling and a great deal of fun for me to run, and furthermore had best be developed enough for me to play out of the box. To say nothing of people who are simply not capable of doing that much of their own heavy lifting game design, ne?
I second Third's challenge. Kotath, Lizard, Templar, all the rest.
You're so absolutely, eternally convinced that no new classes are required every and literally everything can be done with either a reflavor or a tweak of an existing subclass? Prove it.
I'm not convinced of anything of the sort. I just see this discussion falling down the rat hole which results in there being hundreds of super-specialized prestige classes in 3e, because "existing class X isn't quite what I want". The 'witch/occultist' is a perfect example: it's not bad per se, it just doesn't actually add anything significant to the game.
If you want to be able to represent exactly the character concept you want, that's what point build systems are for. Creating hundreds of classes just results in a mess.
I won't deny that 5e is a great game. Especially the core gameplay rules themselves. They're both easy to learn, and in depth enough to do most things players want well.
It's just everything character related I have issues with, and the fact that it's designed in such a way to be inflexible rather than a chassis which people can change easily.
To me, a 5e game system with a 100% redone species/background/feat/class/subclass section would be an ideal system.
BigLizard is asking for every single specific individual DM to do eighty percent of their own game design.
At that point, why not do the first twenty percent too and then not bother paying Wizards of the Coast hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars?
I've been playing freeform games for north of twenty years. I don't need rules. I don't need dice. I don't need somebody else's ideas. If I'm paying for somebody else's ideas, those ideas had best be compelling and a great deal of fun for me to run, and furthermore had best be developed enough for me to play out of the box. To say nothing of people who are simply not capable of doing that much of their own heavy lifting game design, ne?
No I'm not. Your still not getting. Having a good core mechanic that is easy to expand, to develop against does not mean every GM needs to go out and do their own design work. Wizards of the Coast designers, 3rd parties, creative GM's, everyone will benefit from a flexible, stable infrastructure working in a core architecture designed for de-construction is how you get quality content quickly.
Having a poor infrastructure is how you get 100 shitty splat books like we had with 3rd edition, which is exactly what would happen if Wizards opened the flood gates with 5e. The system is not stable enough for them to create balanced expansion and they know it, that's why they don't do it. They understand that if they started creating class and expansion books they will not be able to sell them, because they will be unbalanced crap, as was the case with 3rd edition.
The core mechanic is not designed for expansion. They tested the adhoc system they created thoroughly and it works, that's why people love 5e, but they did not create a mechanic on which they can build a stable flow of content like your demanding and I promise you, in 5e you will never see it.
sorry...but why is this? I really dont understand. If they dont expand they will die.... and 5e is the most popular edition ever.
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
BigLizard is asking for every single specific individual DM to do eighty percent of their own game design.
At that point, why not do the first twenty percent too and then not bother paying Wizards of the Coast hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars?
I've been playing freeform games for north of twenty years. I don't need rules. I don't need dice. I don't need somebody else's ideas. If I'm paying for somebody else's ideas, those ideas had best be compelling and a great deal of fun for me to run, and furthermore had best be developed enough for me to play out of the box. To say nothing of people who are simply not capable of doing that much of their own heavy lifting game design, ne?
No I'm not. Your still not getting. Having a good core mechanic that is easy to expand, to develop against does not mean every GM needs to go out and do their own design work. Wizards of the Coast designers, 3rd parties, creative GM's, everyone will benefit from a flexible, stable infrastructure working in a core architecture designed for de-construction is how you get quality content quickly.
Having a poor infrastructure is how you get 100 shitty splat books like we had with 3rd edition, which is exactly what would happen if Wizards opened the flood gates with 5e. The system is not stable enough for them to create balanced expansion and they know it, that's why they don't do it. They understand that if they started creating class and expansion books they will not be able to sell them, because they will be unbalanced crap, as was the case with 3rd edition.
The core mechanic is not designed for expansion. They tested the adhoc system they created thoroughly and it works, that's why people love 5e, but they did not create a mechanic on which they can build a stable flow of content like your demanding and I promise you, in 5e you will never see it.
A lot of this I agree with, the exception of "not designed for expansion".
Every edition of D&D was designed to be expanded on, but the thing is the expansions have limits. Anything you add to the game in an official capacity has the ability to potentially "break" in some way and in the end, it's just not "fun" as a fan of the hobby to be expected to buy 5 books every month to stay current with official content. The realm of homebrew exists that if a table wants to do something different they can, and in the specific setting of that table whatever they do is their business. Wizards has to worry about creating a system that will work at EVERY table before random homebrew is applied. It has to be easy to grasp, fun to grasp and widely approachable. I think in that sense, 5th is a huge success. It's brought more people to the hobby, they are addressing social issues while keeping game balance in mind and trying to stay within the constructs of their current system.
To me, a 5e game system with a 100% redone species/background/feat/class/subclass section would be an ideal system.
So you want a 6th edition then. To completely redo species, backgrounds, feats, classes and subclasses means designing every item of the system from the ground up.
Why would a new edition be "backwards compatible"? It's a new edition. The whole reason for a new edition is to change the rules.
Not really, a new edition is published to sell books first and foremast at the scale WotC operates at. Backwards compatibility makes sense still in this regard as a way to maintain fan loyalty among those who "bought in" (time and money) into an earlier system. My guess is some of the market research finds frustration among the game community having to shell out $150+ to play the current version of the game you were happy playing in prior to the revision. For some, especially younger fans, that's a steep entry (a different form of gate keeping). Backwards compatibility allows players to stay current with the hobby without feeling abandoned or unsupported because it may take them a bit longer to acquire the new "core".
Despite the energy in this and other threads critical or at least "meta contemplative" of the rules, the by and large base of D&D is pretty content with the game they got. (And I'll say the evangelization of those who want people to think of the game more radically need to work more on their evangelical skills). At my table, I'm the only one in my group who really looks at the limits and boundaries of the game and has curiosity about pushing them. Maybe it's why I tend to DM because I like working in the system's messy spots. But I'm 1 in 7 players. And other groups or clubs I've been involved in I'd say that's about right for the ratio. That content lot is protected by backward compatibility.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The problem I think you're seeing, Jenkens, is that character creation for any given game lands at some point on a spectrum between two points - On-Rails Class Archetypes and Point Build. GURPS is the ultimate expression of a Point Build game, and honestly? 5e is pretty close to an On-Rails Class Archetype game.
The latter is extremely frustrating for game experts and people who're long-time, experienced gamers, of whichever variety, as it badly chokes creativity and demands that players avoid any sort of desire to play their own ideas, instead of the ideas the game oh-so-graciously gives them. The former - that is, Point Build - is exceptionally daunting for people who don't speak Gaming and who've never had experience with that sort of granular assembly system before. Point-build games are generally considered much more difficult for people to break into, and much harder to sell brand new not-gamers on.
Because they're harder to sell, a lot of game developers avoid them like the plague and try to force on-rails class archetype games down our throats instead. The problem is that it's vastly more difficult to expand and update an On-Rails game than a Point Build game. Point builders can release a new book or minibook with a passel of new things to spend your points on easy as pie; a well-done point builder is also one players can add their own stuff to almost as easily. They're very easy to expand and enrich once a player's bought in, but because that buy-in takes a lot more effort, many "Game Designers" who are not actually game designers, but instead corporate ass bandits who're fishing for every last dirty penny they can get, go with what nets them a bunch of up-front profit no matter how hard it'll be to support that game in five years.
Wizards wanted those sweet, sweet fresh newbie meat dollars for 5e, but they're also the longest-lived bastion of Experienced Gamer there is in this medium. They decided to go for on-rails character building to make it easy for new people, and tried to mollify the experienced gamers who wanted more granular and flexible construction with the promise of a steady stream of new classes, subclasses, and advanced character options and rules.
We've all seen where THAT promise went, didn't we?
I second Third's challenge. Kotath, Lizard, Templar, all the rest.
You're so absolutely, eternally convinced that no new classes are required every and literally everything can be done with either a reflavor or a tweak of an existing subclass? Prove it.
Show me how fill these design spaces. Show me how an Eldritch Knight can fluidly weave arcane and martial power into a single action. Show me how the god-botherers can become a completely godless practitioner of the Old Arts. We've put out a ton of design and concept work for new class options; y'all have just been giving us the sass. Put your time where your mouth is and put in some effort y'own damn selves, hm?
EDIT: Catch up after work interruption. Templar's on board. Your turns, Lizard/Kotath.
I third Third's challenge.
Sorry, had to say that. But I am still trying to work on a Warlord class, and would be willing to collaborate with GoodBovine, considering that they had similar ideas.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
D&D has always been a archetype system and it always will be, this is as quintessential to the game as Hit Points, Armor Class and Vancian Magic. They simply cannot stray from that, the one time they did the community almost unanimously rejected it. Which is kind of what I'm saying when I say, some people are just playing the wrong game. D&D is D&D, its a pretty specific thing, if that thing is something that doesn't fit you, its not the only game on the market. But if you have some sort of illusion that Wizards of the Coast can fundamentally change D&D and still be successful, you are fooling yourself. D&D will not change, no matter how hard people try to push it to. The core audience, D&D fans, don't want a different game, they want D&D.
so......what is DnD? you keep saying that ' true fans want dnd' but never explain what that is
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
I second Third's challenge. Kotath, Lizard, Templar, all the rest.
You're so absolutely, eternally convinced that no new classes are required every and literally everything can be done with either a reflavor or a tweak of an existing subclass? Prove it.
Show me how fill these design spaces. Show me how an Eldritch Knight can fluidly weave arcane and martial power into a single action. Show me how the god-botherers can become a completely godless practitioner of the Old Arts. We've put out a ton of design and concept work for new class options; y'all have just been giving us the sass. Put your time where your mouth is and put in some effort y'own damn selves, hm?
EDIT: Catch up after work interruption. Templar's on board. Your turns, Lizard/Kotath.
I third Third's challenge.
Sorry, had to say that. But I am still trying to work on a Warlord class, and would be willing to collaborate with GoodBovine, considering that they had similar ideas.
I am still thinking honestly. I think a core mechanic should be some sort of battle call......
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
GoodBovine, here is what I have so far. The class would Intelligence focused, with strength or dexterity second. They would gain abilities called "tactics," which would provide buffs to themselves and allies. You use tactics by buying them with Command Points, a resource sorta like sorcery points. I have an idea for the subclasses and other features, but their barley skeletons yet. The whole thing is rougher than sandpaper.
A Warlord is a warrior who focuses on fighting intelligently, maximizing position and terrain. They coordinate attacks with their allies, allowing them to take down much greater threats.
Building a Warlord: Warlords focus around Strength or Dexterity and Intelligence. When building a Warlord, put your top score in one of those and your second highest into another.
Hit Dice: Warlords use a d10 for dit dice.
Proficiencies: Light and Medium armour, all weapons.
Tools: Choose one from Cartographers, Calligraphers, and Leatherworkers.
Saving Throws: Dexterity, Intelligence.
Skills: tbd
1st level: Warlords gain a fighting style from the fighter list, as well as another feature: Know Thy Enemy. This feature allows you to use an action to use one of these features:
Evaluate defense: you learn the targets AC, and the next attack you or a friendly creature makes against it has advantage.
Experimental parry: the next time the target attacks you, the attack has disadvantage and you learn the target's health.
Feint: The next attack you make against the target has disadvantage. The target must target you with it’s next attacks.
2nd Level: At second level, you gain access to your core feature:Command Points and Tactics. Command Points are the fuel you use to activate Tactics, which are buffs that affect other players around you. You gain a number of commands points equal to your level*your intelligence modifier. (Yes, this is a lot of points. Having a large number lets you make things more specific.) You can choose up to your intelligence modifier plus your proficiency bonus Tactics. Here are some examples:
Overpower: As an action, select a target within 60 feet of you. Until the start of your next turn, creatures gain a bonus to their attack roles against that target equal to the number of creatures that have previously attacked it. For example, if a Warlord targetes a troll with overpower, the next creature to attack it gains no bonus. The second creature gets +1, the third +2, and so on and so forth. Cost [2]
Steady Position: As a bonus action, activate this Tactic. Friendly creatures within 10*your intelligence modifier adds your intelligence modifier to attack rolls if they did not move this turn. Cost[7]
3rd Level: At 3rd level, Warlords gain their subclass, called a Discipline. There are three Disciplines: The Discipline of the Wing focuses on one quick, decisive attack, The Discipline of the Hammer focuses on brute force, and the Discipline of the Shield focuses on defense. Each discipline also gives you exclusive tactics, which you can choose to select.
Tactic: Strike from Above (Available to Discipline of the Wing or Discipline of the Hammer) You may choose to activate this tactic as a bonus action on your turn. Until the start of your next turn, whenever you or a friendly creature within 10*your intelligence modifier feet attacks a creature at a lower elevation than it, they gain a bonus their attack roll equal to your intelligence modifier. Cost [5]
Tactic: Total Annihilation (Available to Discipline of the Hammer) You may activate this tactic as a bonus action on your turn. The next time you take the attack action, you may make an extra attack. If all of your attacks hit, an ally within five feet of you may make an attack targeting the same target. [3]
Tactic: Iron Wall (Available to Discipline of the Shield.) Activate this tactic as an action. Until the start of your next turn, friendly creatures within 10*int mod feet gain advantage on opportunity attacks. [1]
Tactic: Swift Retreat (Available to Discipline of the Wing) Activate this tactic as a bonus action. Until the start of your next turn, friendly creatures within 10*int mod feet can take the dash or disengage action as a bonus action until the start of your next turn. [2]
The fifth level feature would be something like this: Parry and Counter: As a reaction when you are being attacked, you can attempt to counter a melee attack. You do this by making an attack roll, and if you total if greater than the targets roll, the attack misses. If the attack misses, you may immediately make a weapon attack against the target.
That's my very rough first draft of a Warlord.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
I know I am no 'Homebrew' expert. I will try.......don't know how long it will take me as I have never done it before. It will be a Cleric subclass that I do know.
If after I do this and take my lumps from the Experts those same Experts need to help me build a new class that I now have running through my head......Deal? What can I say except that all of you have inspired me! :D
Edit to add: no need for the comment: just shut up and do it! Last I checked everyone is entitled to have and voice their opinions!
Don't worry about being an expert. NONE of us are experts, we don't get paid to do this kind of thing. What a lot of us are is homebrew afficionados, and as such one thing I can tell you is that the design process is messy as ****!!! You are going to get your hands dirty, and in all likelyhood your first attempt at homebrew will be a complete mess; don't worry about it or get discouraged, we have all been there.
Clearly, Benevolent Steer, 'real D&D' is simply playing the story of the Fellowship of the Ring. Over and over and over and over and over...
and over and overand over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over ...
Until such time as the sun burns out and consumes the Earth.
Because Tolkien's work is the only possible 'Fantasy' anyone could ever want to play, ne?
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Sure, or Rite maybe.
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I second Third's challenge. Kotath, Lizard, Templar, all the rest.
You're so absolutely, eternally convinced that no new classes are required every and literally everything can be done with either a reflavor or a tweak of an existing subclass? Prove it.
Show me how fill these design spaces. Show me how an Eldritch Knight can fluidly weave arcane and martial power into a single action. Show me how the god-botherers can become a completely godless practitioner of the Old Arts. We've put out a ton of design and concept work for new class options; y'all have just been giving us the sass. Put your time where your mouth is and put in some effort y'own damn selves, hm?
EDIT: Catch up after work interruption. Templar's on board. Your turns, Lizard/Kotath.
Please do not contact or message me.
I think I understand what BigLizard is saying now and agree. I think we're just coming at the same problem from the opposite directions.
The thing is asking for more classes is a symptom of the overall problem. And it doesn't matter how we rephrase the question to mean something a bit different, 5e as a whole is incapable of delivering that, and no amount of new books, classes, subclasses, etc will fix its core issues. It's not flexible, and now the result is both a ton of content and little content at the same time.
It's why at this point I'm just hoping for a 5.5e or a 6e, but those would require WotC to understand the problem, which it shows no signs of doing so.
Plus they already promised that new editions from now on would be backwards compatible with 5e.
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They should be called invocations because the more he works on the class, the more it becomes what the Warlock should have been.
This debate is over whether new classes should be created or just new subclasses, but what is actually being discussed is the problem with the design of the existing classes.
BigLizard is asking for every single specific individual DM to do eighty percent of their own game design.
At that point, why not do the first twenty percent too and then not bother paying Wizards of the Coast hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars?
I've been playing freeform games for north of twenty years. I don't need rules. I don't need dice. I don't need somebody else's ideas. If I'm paying for somebody else's ideas, those ideas had best be compelling and a great deal of fun for me to run, and furthermore had best be developed enough for me to play out of the box. To say nothing of people who are simply not capable of doing that much of their own heavy lifting game design, ne?
Please do not contact or message me.
I'm not convinced of anything of the sort. I just see this discussion falling down the rat hole which results in there being hundreds of super-specialized prestige classes in 3e, because "existing class X isn't quite what I want". The 'witch/occultist' is a perfect example: it's not bad per se, it just doesn't actually add anything significant to the game.
If you want to be able to represent exactly the character concept you want, that's what point build systems are for. Creating hundreds of classes just results in a mess.
Why would a new edition be "backwards compatible"? It's a new edition. The whole reason for a new edition is to change the rules.
I won't deny that 5e is a great game. Especially the core gameplay rules themselves. They're both easy to learn, and in depth enough to do most things players want well.
It's just everything character related I have issues with, and the fact that it's designed in such a way to be inflexible rather than a chassis which people can change easily.
To me, a 5e game system with a 100% redone species/background/feat/class/subclass section would be an ideal system.
sorry...but why is this? I really dont understand. If they dont expand they will die.... and 5e is the most popular edition ever.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
A lot of this I agree with, the exception of "not designed for expansion".
Every edition of D&D was designed to be expanded on, but the thing is the expansions have limits. Anything you add to the game in an official capacity has the ability to potentially "break" in some way and in the end, it's just not "fun" as a fan of the hobby to be expected to buy 5 books every month to stay current with official content. The realm of homebrew exists that if a table wants to do something different they can, and in the specific setting of that table whatever they do is their business. Wizards has to worry about creating a system that will work at EVERY table before random homebrew is applied. It has to be easy to grasp, fun to grasp and widely approachable. I think in that sense, 5th is a huge success. It's brought more people to the hobby, they are addressing social issues while keeping game balance in mind and trying to stay within the constructs of their current system.
So you want a 6th edition then. To completely redo species, backgrounds, feats, classes and subclasses means designing every item of the system from the ground up.
Not really, a new edition is published to sell books first and foremast at the scale WotC operates at. Backwards compatibility makes sense still in this regard as a way to maintain fan loyalty among those who "bought in" (time and money) into an earlier system. My guess is some of the market research finds frustration among the game community having to shell out $150+ to play the current version of the game you were happy playing in prior to the revision. For some, especially younger fans, that's a steep entry (a different form of gate keeping). Backwards compatibility allows players to stay current with the hobby without feeling abandoned or unsupported because it may take them a bit longer to acquire the new "core".
Despite the energy in this and other threads critical or at least "meta contemplative" of the rules, the by and large base of D&D is pretty content with the game they got. (And I'll say the evangelization of those who want people to think of the game more radically need to work more on their evangelical skills). At my table, I'm the only one in my group who really looks at the limits and boundaries of the game and has curiosity about pushing them. Maybe it's why I tend to DM because I like working in the system's messy spots. But I'm 1 in 7 players. And other groups or clubs I've been involved in I'd say that's about right for the ratio. That content lot is protected by backward compatibility.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The problem I think you're seeing, Jenkens, is that character creation for any given game lands at some point on a spectrum between two points - On-Rails Class Archetypes and Point Build. GURPS is the ultimate expression of a Point Build game, and honestly? 5e is pretty close to an On-Rails Class Archetype game.
The latter is extremely frustrating for game experts and people who're long-time, experienced gamers, of whichever variety, as it badly chokes creativity and demands that players avoid any sort of desire to play their own ideas, instead of the ideas the game oh-so-graciously gives them. The former - that is, Point Build - is exceptionally daunting for people who don't speak Gaming and who've never had experience with that sort of granular assembly system before. Point-build games are generally considered much more difficult for people to break into, and much harder to sell brand new not-gamers on.
Because they're harder to sell, a lot of game developers avoid them like the plague and try to force on-rails class archetype games down our throats instead. The problem is that it's vastly more difficult to expand and update an On-Rails game than a Point Build game. Point builders can release a new book or minibook with a passel of new things to spend your points on easy as pie; a well-done point builder is also one players can add their own stuff to almost as easily. They're very easy to expand and enrich once a player's bought in, but because that buy-in takes a lot more effort, many "Game Designers" who are not actually game designers, but instead corporate ass bandits who're fishing for every last dirty penny they can get, go with what nets them a bunch of up-front profit no matter how hard it'll be to support that game in five years.
Wizards wanted those sweet, sweet fresh newbie meat dollars for 5e, but they're also the longest-lived bastion of Experienced Gamer there is in this medium. They decided to go for on-rails character building to make it easy for new people, and tried to mollify the experienced gamers who wanted more granular and flexible construction with the promise of a steady stream of new classes, subclasses, and advanced character options and rules.
We've all seen where THAT promise went, didn't we?
Please do not contact or message me.
I'm personally betting on 5e lasting until the late 2020's.
And wow, it will be a mess by then.
I third Third's challenge.
Sorry, had to say that. But I am still trying to work on a Warlord class, and would be willing to collaborate with GoodBovine, considering that they had similar ideas.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
so......what is DnD? you keep saying that ' true fans want dnd' but never explain what that is
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
I am still thinking honestly. I think a core mechanic should be some sort of battle call......
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
GoodBovine, here is what I have so far. The class would Intelligence focused, with strength or dexterity second. They would gain abilities called "tactics," which would provide buffs to themselves and allies. You use tactics by buying them with Command Points, a resource sorta like sorcery points. I have an idea for the subclasses and other features, but their barley skeletons yet. The whole thing is rougher than sandpaper.
A Warlord is a warrior who focuses on fighting intelligently, maximizing position and terrain. They coordinate attacks with their allies, allowing them to take down much greater threats.
Building a Warlord: Warlords focus around Strength or Dexterity and Intelligence. When building a Warlord, put your top score in one of those and your second highest into another.
Hit Dice: Warlords use a d10 for dit dice.
Proficiencies: Light and Medium armour, all weapons.
Tools: Choose one from Cartographers, Calligraphers, and Leatherworkers.
Saving Throws: Dexterity, Intelligence.
Skills: tbd
1st level: Warlords gain a fighting style from the fighter list, as well as another feature: Know Thy Enemy. This feature allows you to use an action to use one of these features:
Evaluate defense: you learn the targets AC, and the next attack you or a friendly creature makes against it has advantage.
Experimental parry: the next time the target attacks you, the attack has disadvantage and you learn the target's health.
Feint: The next attack you make against the target has disadvantage. The target must target you with it’s next attacks.
2nd Level: At second level, you gain access to your core feature:Command Points and Tactics. Command Points are the fuel you use to activate Tactics, which are buffs that affect other players around you. You gain a number of commands points equal to your level*your intelligence modifier. (Yes, this is a lot of points. Having a large number lets you make things more specific.) You can choose up to your intelligence modifier plus your proficiency bonus Tactics. Here are some examples:
Overpower: As an action, select a target within 60 feet of you. Until the start of your next turn, creatures gain a bonus to their attack roles against that target equal to the number of creatures that have previously attacked it. For example, if a Warlord targetes a troll with overpower, the next creature to attack it gains no bonus. The second creature gets +1, the third +2, and so on and so forth. Cost [2]
Steady Position: As a bonus action, activate this Tactic. Friendly creatures within 10*your intelligence modifier adds your intelligence modifier to attack rolls if they did not move this turn. Cost[7]
3rd Level: At 3rd level, Warlords gain their subclass, called a Discipline. There are three Disciplines: The Discipline of the Wing focuses on one quick, decisive attack, The Discipline of the Hammer focuses on brute force, and the Discipline of the Shield focuses on defense. Each discipline also gives you exclusive tactics, which you can choose to select.
Tactic: Strike from Above (Available to Discipline of the Wing or Discipline of the Hammer) You may choose to activate this tactic as a bonus action on your turn. Until the start of your next turn, whenever you or a friendly creature within 10*your intelligence modifier feet attacks a creature at a lower elevation than it, they gain a bonus their attack roll equal to your intelligence modifier. Cost [5]
Tactic: Total Annihilation (Available to Discipline of the Hammer) You may activate this tactic as a bonus action on your turn. The next time you take the attack action, you may make an extra attack. If all of your attacks hit, an ally within five feet of you may make an attack targeting the same target. [3]
Tactic: Iron Wall (Available to Discipline of the Shield.) Activate this tactic as an action. Until the start of your next turn, friendly creatures within 10*int mod feet gain advantage on opportunity attacks. [1]
Tactic: Swift Retreat (Available to Discipline of the Wing) Activate this tactic as a bonus action. Until the start of your next turn, friendly creatures within 10*int mod feet can take the dash or disengage action as a bonus action until the start of your next turn. [2]
The fifth level feature would be something like this: Parry and Counter: As a reaction when you are being attacked, you can attempt to counter a melee attack. You do this by making an attack roll, and if you total if greater than the targets roll, the attack misses. If the attack misses, you may immediately make a weapon attack against the target.
That's my very rough first draft of a Warlord.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Don't worry about being an expert. NONE of us are experts, we don't get paid to do this kind of thing. What a lot of us are is homebrew afficionados, and as such one thing I can tell you is that the design process is messy as ****!!! You are going to get your hands dirty, and in all likelyhood your first attempt at homebrew will be a complete mess; don't worry about it or get discouraged, we have all been there.
Good luck, and have fun!
Clearly, Benevolent Steer, 'real D&D' is simply playing the story of the Fellowship of the Ring. Over and over and over and over and over...
and over and overand over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over ...
Until such time as the sun burns out and consumes the Earth.
Because Tolkien's work is the only possible 'Fantasy' anyone could ever want to play, ne?
Please do not contact or message me.