It's rough, but a quick class/subclass layout which I think would have offered a lot more freedom when combined with the 5e rules. It would allow fewer classes and subclasses, while also providing a greater variety of gameplay and mechanics/themes. A swordmage and a death knight could both fall under paladin, but there is enough flexibility to drop the core class baggage while keeping paladin itself with as much flavor as it always had.
so......what is DnD? you keep saying that ' true fans want dnd' but never explain what that is
D&D is hit points, armor class, six ability scores, vancian magic, its rolling a d20 for attacks, its making saving throws, its the sleep, magic missiles and cure light wound spells, its Orcs, Goblins, Ogres and Dragons, its adventure modules, its dungeons, its disarming traps and moving silently, its a Long Sword doe 1d8 damage + 1 rings of protection, Its Paladins Lay on Hands, Wizard spell books, potions of invisibility and deck of many things.
Your a fan when you know what all those things are, they make you smile and you wish you were with your friends right now playing the game.
hmm, I know what all of those are, but I also know divine smite, and Pole Arm Master, and a greatsword doing 2d6 damage. I know about Spontaneous casting, and Unearthed arcana (Not the art book). Does this make me not a fan, or just a bigger one? 🧐
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
so......what is DnD? you keep saying that ' true fans want dnd' but never explain what that is
D&D is hit points, armor class, six ability scores, vancian magic, its rolling a d20 for attacks, its making saving throws, its the sleep, magic missiles and cure light wound spells, its Orcs, Goblins, Ogres and Dragons, its adventure modules, its dungeons, its disarming traps and moving silently, its a Long Sword doe 1d8 damage + 1 rings of protection, Its Paladins Lay on Hands, Wizard spell books, potions of invisibility and deck of many things.
Your a fan when you know what all those things are, they make you smile and you wish you were with your friends right now playing the game.
As far as I’m concerned 5e is the least “Vancian” D&D has ever been and that’s a good thing. There was a time that people would have put THAC0 on that list and everyone is happier since that went away.
“Wherever we want to go, we go. That’s what a ship is, you know. It’s not just a keel and hull and a deck and sails. That’s what a ship needs. But what a ship is… what the Black Pearl really is… is freedom.” —Captain Jack Sparrow
“Wherever we want to go, we go. That’s what D&D is, you know. It’s not just Spell Slots, and AC and d20 Rolls. That’s what D&D needs. But what D&D is... what it really is... is imagination.” —IamSposta
As far as I’m concerned 5e is the least “Vancian” D&D has ever been and that’s a good thing. There was a time that people would have put THAC0 on that list and everyone is happier since that went away.
THAC0 was vastly superior to "Attacks as an X level <class>", which is what it replaced.
As far as I’m concerned 5e is the least “Vancian” D&D has ever been and that’s a good thing. There was a time that people would have put THAC0 on that list and everyone is happier since that went away.
THAC0 was vastly superior to "Attacks as an X level <class>", which is what it replaced.
Why is it better? I've never played with it, and it makes sense, but I don't see why it is superior to rolling against a high AC.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
As far as I’m concerned 5e is the least “Vancian” D&D has ever been and that’s a good thing. There was a time that people would have put THAC0 on that list and everyone is happier since that went away.
THAC0 was vastly superior to "Attacks as an X level <class>", which is what it replaced.
THAC0 was bass ackwards. It made sense mathematically but I never liked it. The current system is way cleaner. It’s the same thing only inverted and therefore easier to explain.
As far as I’m concerned 5e is the least “Vancian” D&D has ever been and that’s a good thing. There was a time that people would have put THAC0 on that list and everyone is happier since that went away.
THAC0 was vastly superior to "Attacks as an X level <class>", which is what it replaced.
Why is it better? I've never played with it, and it makes sense, but I don't see why it is superior to rolling against a high AC.
Prior to THAC0, you were using table lookup against a table that mapped AC vs level and class. Which was in fact almost completely identical to THAC0, it just required rather large tables instead of a single number.
As far as I’m concerned 5e is the least “Vancian” D&D has ever been and that’s a good thing. There was a time that people would have put THAC0 on that list and everyone is happier since that went away.
THAC0 was vastly superior to "Attacks as an X level <class>", which is what it replaced.
Why is it better? I've never played with it, and it makes sense, but I don't see why it is superior to rolling against a high AC.
Prior to THAC0, you were using table lookup against a table that mapped AC vs level and class. Which was in fact almost completely identical to THAC0, it just required rather large tables instead of a single number.
And how is any of that better than rolling against a high AC?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
As far as I’m concerned 5e is the least “Vancian” D&D has ever been and that’s a good thing. There was a time that people would have put THAC0 on that list and everyone is happier since that went away.
THAC0 was vastly superior to "Attacks as an X level <class>", which is what it replaced.
Why is it better? I've never played with it, and it makes sense, but I don't see why it is superior to rolling against a high AC.
Prior to THAC0, you were using table lookup against a table that mapped AC vs level and class. Which was in fact almost completely identical to THAC0, it just required rather large tables instead of a single number.
And how is any of that better than rolling against a high AC?
THAC0 seems like it is over complicated compared to bounded accuracy that we have in 5e.
I think Matt Colville said it best that there are far too many people playing D&D that want it to be something its not and they should be playing a different game rather then trying to force this one to their will. He is right about that.
I agree with this. There are a bunch of games out there that will cater to what just about anybody here wants.
1 - They're too lazy or not interested in trying something new. Which is a huge shame. Go out and try something new!
2 - They just want it in their D&D. Nothing wrong with this, but sometimes a different game might fit the bill better.
It is a fact that many many GMs will not allow things in their game unless it is official D&D. I think the primary reason is Munchkin Players. GMs really really don't want to be surprised by when player sits at their table with made up shit to ruin their game.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
THAC0 was bass ackwards. It made sense mathematically but I never liked it. The current system is way cleaner. It’s the same thing only inverted and therefore easier to explain.
I liked the charts.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
It's also an issue of many DMs being unable to convince their groups to play anything but 5e. Or, less commonly but still a thing, groups unable to find a DM willing to run anything but 5e.
Doesn't help that no other game I know of has any sort of digital tool system worth a snot. When you can't play in person, availability of digital tools becomes much more friggin' important.
if you have some sort of illusion that Wizards of the Coast can fundamentally change D&D and still be successful, you are fooling yourself. D&D will not change, no matter how hard people try to push it to. The core audience, D&D fans, don't want a different game, they want D&D.
It might be possible for them to change the game wholesale. Look at what they did to Battletech. They turned a semi detailed crunchy war game into a CMWG. Not sure if it's still successful.
Oh shit, I said it. D&D 6e is going to turn into a CCG/CMWG/CRPG with your character being a random pull with a clicky base!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I loved the MechWarrior clix game. Sadly, it is not still running. WizKids terminated it. Them killing that game is sixty percent of where my absolute seething hatred of Wizards-the-company came from.
It's rough, but a quick class/subclass layout which I think would have offered a lot more freedom when combined with the 5e rules. It would allow fewer classes and subclasses, while also providing a greater variety of gameplay and mechanics/themes. A swordmage and a death knight could both fall under paladin, but there is enough flexibility to drop the core class baggage while keeping paladin itself with as much flavor as it always had.
Yes it's probably full of flaws.
hmm, I know what all of those are, but I also know divine smite, and Pole Arm Master, and a greatsword doing 2d6 damage. I know about Spontaneous casting, and Unearthed arcana (Not the art book). Does this make me not a fan, or just a bigger one? 🧐
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
As far as I’m concerned 5e is the least “Vancian” D&D has ever been and that’s a good thing. There was a time that people would have put THAC0 on that list and everyone is happier since that went away.
“Wherever we want to go, we go. That’s what a ship is, you know. It’s not just a keel and hull and a deck and sails. That’s what a ship needs. But what a ship is… what the Black Pearl really is… is freedom.” —Captain Jack Sparrow
“Wherever we want to go, we go. That’s what D&D is, you know. It’s not just Spell Slots, and AC and d20 Rolls. That’s what D&D needs. But what D&D is... what it really is... is imagination.” —IamSposta
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
THAC0 was vastly superior to "Attacks as an X level <class>", which is what it replaced.
Why is it better? I've never played with it, and it makes sense, but I don't see why it is superior to rolling against a high AC.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
THAC0 was bass ackwards. It made sense mathematically but I never liked it. The current system is way cleaner. It’s the same thing only inverted and therefore easier to explain.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Prior to THAC0, you were using table lookup against a table that mapped AC vs level and class. Which was in fact almost completely identical to THAC0, it just required rather large tables instead of a single number.
And how is any of that better than rolling against a high AC?
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
It isn't? I wasn't saying THAC0 was good, I was saying it was an improvement over what came before it.
Ah, okay. Nevermind.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
And my original point was that things like THAC0 come and go as they get replaced with something better, or something else gets added.
Much like new classes.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
THAC0 seems like it is over complicated compared to bounded accuracy that we have in 5e.
I agree with this. There are a bunch of games out there that will cater to what just about anybody here wants.
1 - They're too lazy or not interested in trying something new. Which is a huge shame. Go out and try something new!
2 - They just want it in their D&D. Nothing wrong with this, but sometimes a different game might fit the bill better.
It is a fact that many many GMs will not allow things in their game unless it is official D&D. I think the primary reason is Munchkin Players. GMs really really don't want to be surprised by when player sits at their table with made up shit to ruin their game.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I liked the charts.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
It's also an issue of many DMs being unable to convince their groups to play anything but 5e. Or, less commonly but still a thing, groups unable to find a DM willing to run anything but 5e.
Doesn't help that no other game I know of has any sort of digital tool system worth a snot. When you can't play in person, availability of digital tools becomes much more friggin' important.
Please do not contact or message me.
It might be possible for them to change the game wholesale. Look at what they did to Battletech. They turned a semi detailed crunchy war game into a CMWG. Not sure if it's still successful.
Oh shit, I said it. D&D 6e is going to turn into a CCG/CMWG/CRPG with your character being a random pull with a clicky base!
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I loved the MechWarrior clix game. Sadly, it is not still running. WizKids terminated it. Them killing that game is sixty percent of where my absolute seething hatred of Wizards-the-company came from.
Please do not contact or message me.
Based on 4th edition, no, it isn't.
I’m probably part of a dying breed who actually had fun with that edition. 😂
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
I didn't say it would be a popular or successful change.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale