Myself and others feel that psionic powers should not be represented by Spellcasting or spell slots. To me, Yurei, Third, Mezz, and many others, having Psionics as separate from Spellcasting is quintessential to our enjoyment of it as a concept.
Every time you dismiss that as unimportant, you’re telling us our fun is wrong.
That hurts our feelings, please stop.
I don't think spellcasting should be represented by spell slots, and in general D&D doesn't do a good job of encouraging or supporting themed spellcasters. Psi behaves like spellcasting, and if holy miracles and arcane spells can both use the same system, so can psi.
But Psi shouldn’t behave like spellcasting, that’s the point. It may be able to do many of the same things, but it shouldn’t do them the same ways.
Nope, nada.
The game is built around rolling dice, particularly a D20. There are exceptions (Invocations being one), but they are all part of a classes that depends on rolling those dice. If you want to create a class that is not based around rolling dice, as spellcasting is, then you go right ahead and create your game. If you want to create a entirely brand new game mechanic, independent of how every other non martial class works, knock yourself out.
Just don't call it D&D.
Ummm...literally nobody said any new mechanics shouldn't roll dice. Besides which, not all mechanics in the game are reliant on rolling dice anyways, there are plenty of spells and other features that are one-and-done, cross off your spell slot/whatever other resource you have and don't worry about it any more, but that's beside the point. I'm not sure what it is you're arguing against.
Also, Sposta's been around since THAC0. He has a pretty good idea for what D&D is and isn't.
To say that Psionics should be a reskin of Spellcasting, is to say that Spellcasting should be a reskin of weapon attacks.
Um....they kind of are.
For many spells you have your attack stat, and you roll a d20 against AC. That's exactly like a weapon attack.
Well yes, but actually no. Many spells do use a spell attack, but then there's many, *many* more that don't and 1) use saving throws, 2) are dependent on your current number of hit points, and 3) don't have any limitations and just work, period. If magic was just a bunch of fighters going, "I shoot my crossbow and call it Magic Missile!" I think most people would recognize that is super lame.
Myself and others feel that psionic powers should not be represented by Spellcasting or spell slots. To me, Yurei, Third, Mezz, and many others, having Psionics as separate from Spellcasting is quintessential to our enjoyment of it as a concept.
Every time you dismiss that as unimportant, you’re telling us our fun is wrong.
That hurts our feelings, please stop.
I don't think spellcasting should be represented by spell slots, and in general D&D doesn't do a good job of encouraging or supporting themed spellcasters. Psi behaves like spellcasting, and if holy miracles and arcane spells can both use the same system, so can psi.
But Psi shouldn’t behave like spellcasting, that’s the point. It may be able to do many of the same things, but it shouldn’t do them the same ways.
Nope, nada.
The game is built around rolling dice, particularly a D20. There are exceptions (Invocations being one), but they are all part of a classes that depends on rolling those dice. If you want to create a class that is not based around rolling dice, as spellcasting is, then you go right ahead and create your game. If you want to create a entirely brand new game mechanic, independent of how every other non martial class works, knock yourself out.
Just don't call it D&D.
Who said anything about not rolling dice?!? Certainly not I. I just said not using spells or spell slots. Much like this list of “magic but not spellcasting” features that already exist in D&D in this current edition:
But Psi shouldn’t behave like spellcasting, that’s the point. It may be able to do many of the same things, but it shouldn’t do them the same ways.
Bardsong shouldn't behave anything like divine magic shouldn't behave anything like sorcery. They do, because creating a new subsystem for each character type is a hassle, hard to balance, and isn't really worth the trouble. Psi is the same. If you don't like spell slots, try using the spell points variant, but I recommend using it for all casters if you use it at all.
Why should psychic characters have absolutely no edge over a character with absolutely no psychic abilities, but who gets to cherry-pick all the "Good' psychic spells (because of course psychic abilities are spells in this godawful messed-up system) whilst ALSO having the benefit of all the rest of their respective parent class' spell list and various subclass features?
How is that remotely fair or balanced to people who were so hopeful for useful, interesting, and unique psychic characters?
Why should psychic characters have absolutely no edge over a character with absolutely no psychic abilities, but who gets to cherry-pick all the "Good' psychic spells (because of course psychic abilities are spells in this godawful messed-up system) whilst ALSO having the benefit of all the rest of their respective parent class' spell list and various subclass features?
See my point about how D&D doesn't do a good job encouraging themed casters. You're in no different a position than the player who decides to create any other themed spellcaster (for example, the sorcerer in my current game has decided to be lightning themed, and thus wound up with godawful spells like witch bolt). There should probably be a mechanic for encouraging themed casters, but it's nothing unique to psi.
I realize saying it now doesn't make a difference, but some things just shouldn't have been made spells in the first place. "Psionic" spells should not have been made spells. Hunter's Mark should not have been made a spell. Smite spells should have probably been rolled in as a Paladin feature instead of spells. Eldritch Blast makes sense as a spell, but let's be honest, so many Warlock features assume that you have it, it probably should have just been a part of the core class instead. Hell, there's probably more that I'm not even thinking of...
Why should psychic characters have absolutely no edge over a character with absolutely no psychic abilities, but who gets to cherry-pick all the "Good' psychic spells (because of course psychic abilities are spells in this godawful messed-up system) whilst ALSO having the benefit of all the rest of their respective parent class' spell list and various subclass features?
See my point about how D&D doesn't do a good job encouraging themed casters. You're in no different a position than the player who decides to create any other themed spellcaster (for example, the sorcerer in my current game has decided to be lightning themed, and thus wound up with godawful spells like witch bolt). There should probably be a mechanic for encouraging themed casters, but it's nothing unique to psi.
Then why force something to be a themed caster, if you know that this system handles anything but Fire Guy badly? If the problem has been identified, why actively desire and push for its persistence? Especially when elemental casters are frequently permitted the great good fortune of simply reassigning the damage of already existing spells - a lightning caster can create an Arc Bolt cantrip or otherwise create minor modifications to existing damage spells, and frankly many such casters only need a few signature spells to sell their theme. A blue dragon sorcerer with a serviceable lightning cantrip - of which they have their pick of millions in the DDB homebrew library if they don't want to bother making their own - a tendency towards the lightning variation of Dragon's Breath, and the actual Lightning Bolt spell at fifth level is basically set.
Saying other folks have it bad isn't really a solution, it's simply evidence the problem is widespread enough that an actual solution is even more strongly merited. Because again - what reason does anyone have to play a so-called "Psychic" sorcerer when the dragon sorcerer does literally ****off EVERYTHING the "psychic" sorcerer does, save with a much broader spell selection and a bunch of helpful class features?
Why should psychic characters have absolutely no edge over a character with absolutely no psychic abilities, but who gets to cherry-pick all the "Good' psychic spells (because of course psychic abilities are spells in this godawful messed-up system) whilst ALSO having the benefit of all the rest of their respective parent class' spell list and various subclass features?
See my point about how D&D doesn't do a good job encouraging themed casters. You're in no different a position than the player who decides to create any other themed spellcaster (for example, the sorcerer in my current game has decided to be lightning themed, and thus wound up with godawful spells like witch bolt). There should probably be a mechanic for encouraging themed casters, but it's nothing unique to psi.
The easiest way to fix the themed spell caster issue is to create a ton of new spells, varied across multiple different elements. But you know that already, seeing as you (loosely and kinda unenthusiastically) agreed with me on the subject when I made a thread about it. I have a list for many of the underrepresented elements, but most of them are probably imbalanced, and I feel like my well of creativity has dried up on the subject.
But now you're changing the subject. Psionics is a fundamentally different beast than spellcasting, even if the end result is similar. How you should be looking at psionics is that the psychic spells are non-psionic spell casters attempting to duplicate with magic the abilities of people who are psionic. A mid to high level psionic character should be treated as though they had an always on Telepathic Bond if they are a telepath.
Myself and others feel that psionic powers should not be represented by Spellcasting or spell slots. To me, Yurei, Third, Mezz, and many others, having Psionics as separate from Spellcasting is quintessential to our enjoyment of it as a concept.
Every time you dismiss that as unimportant, you’re telling us our fun is wrong.
That hurts our feelings, please stop.
I don't think spellcasting should be represented by spell slots, and in general D&D doesn't do a good job of encouraging or supporting themed spellcasters. Psi behaves like spellcasting, and if holy miracles and arcane spells can both use the same system, so can psi.
But Psi shouldn’t behave like spellcasting, that’s the point. It may be able to do many of the same things, but it shouldn’t do them the same ways.
Nope, nada.
The game is built around rolling dice, particularly a D20. There are exceptions (Invocations being one), but they are all part of a classes that depends on rolling those dice. If you want to create a class that is not based around rolling dice, as spellcasting is, then you go right ahead and create your game. If you want to create a entirely brand new game mechanic, independent of how every other non martial class works, knock yourself out.
Just don't call it D&D.
...I really do have to ask what thread you're reading, because in all 46 pages here, or in the combined 60 some pages of the other 2 (recent) threads on the subject, not a single person has suggested anything even remotely similar to "lol psionics doesn't roll dice".
C'mon Pantegruel. That's a bad faith argument if ever I've seen one. You can do better than that.
Sorry, I forgot my names of AD&D psi powers, it's actually molecular agitation (though you'd actually use detonate). There's actually plenty of psi powers, in all editions of D&D, capable blowing up constructs and the like.
First edition psionics were hilariously stupidly broken (because first level characters should be casting disintegrate....) and belong in the dumpster fire of bad concepts. As for feats, that's what Magic Initiate is for.
1e psionics didn't have disintegrate.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
To be honest, I haven't seen my AD&D books for thirty years, so while I remember psi being potentially stupidly dangerous at very low level, I don't remember why. In any case, my general point was that you can justify quite a lot as psi powers, so it's not actually all that limiting to call your sorcerer a psi.
Myself and others feel that psionic powers should not be represented by Spellcasting or spell slots. To me, Yurei, Third, Mezz, and many others, having Psionics as separate from Spellcasting is quintessential to our enjoyment of it as a concept.
Every time you dismiss that as unimportant, you’re telling us our fun is wrong.
That hurts our feelings, please stop.
I don't think spellcasting should be represented by spell slots, and in general D&D doesn't do a good job of encouraging or supporting themed spellcasters. Psi behaves like spellcasting, and if holy miracles and arcane spells can both use the same system, so can psi.
But Psi shouldn’t behave like spellcasting, that’s the point. It may be able to do many of the same things, but it shouldn’t do them the same ways.
Nope, nada.
The game is built around rolling dice, particularly a D20. There are exceptions (Invocations being one), but they are all part of a classes that depends on rolling those dice. If you want to create a class that is not based around rolling dice, as spellcasting is, then you go right ahead and create your game. If you want to create a entirely brand new game mechanic, independent of how every other non martial class works, knock yourself out.
Just don't call it D&D.
Ah yes. To be playing D&D you have to always be rolling a d20.
Why should psychic characters have absolutely no edge over a character with absolutely no psychic abilities, but who gets to cherry-pick all the "Good' psychic spells (because of course psychic abilities are spells in this godawful messed-up system) whilst ALSO having the benefit of all the rest of their respective parent class' spell list and various subclass features?
See my point about how D&D doesn't do a good job encouraging themed casters. You're in no different a position than the player who decides to create any other themed spellcaster (for example, the sorcerer in my current game has decided to be lightning themed, and thus wound up with godawful spells like witch bolt). There should probably be a mechanic for encouraging themed casters, but it's nothing unique to psi.
Except for one key thing, Psionicists shouldn’t be “spellcasters” at all.
Eh, basically everything a psion can do is on the sorcerer spell list. Just take a sorcerer, take subtle spell as one of your metamagics, and choose your spells to match a tk theme.
And what should a Psion be able to do that a sorcerer cannot? And should sorcerers be nerfed just to make room for psions?
What do you see as a viable solution?
Why should Sorcerers get nerfed to make room for another class?!? That makes no sense whatsoever.
A spellcaster, but with less focus on spells, but instead creates magical effects like the "Cloak of Flies" invocation, or adds abilities to themselves the "starry form" variant of wild shape, or a barbarian's rage.
You basically just described a Psionicist the way I have been describing the whole time. A “Magic User” that creates magical effects and/or adds abilities to themselves instead of casting spells.
Tada!
The only difference between that and a sorcerer is the hand waiving and components. And even psychic powers are on occasion described as using foci (crystal ball, healing crystal, usually some crystal something or other). Not that much difference there. Sorcerer power is similarly innate, just needing demonstrative actions to evoke.
And again, just watch any screen depiction of psychics, big or small screen. They are usually depicted making a lot of hand gestures that one would think unnecessary...
But that isn’t the difference. The difference is that Psionicists don’t cast spells. This argument is like saying the Weapon Attacks should just be Spellcasting too.
I played with psionics in 1E/2E. As I recall, a lot of it had to do with psionic based combat between two psionic characters (id insinuation, tower of iron will, etc), although "psionic blast" could effect non psionic characters.
A big part of the issue is that WOTC is trying to keep psionics within the framework of the games current mechanics, and it was (originally) intended to be its own mechanic.
Why should psychic characters have absolutely no edge over a character with absolutely no psychic abilities, but who gets to cherry-pick all the "Good' psychic spells (because of course psychic abilities are spells in this godawful messed-up system) whilst ALSO having the benefit of all the rest of their respective parent class' spell list and various subclass features?
See my point about how D&D doesn't do a good job encouraging themed casters. You're in no different a position than the player who decides to create any other themed spellcaster (for example, the sorcerer in my current game has decided to be lightning themed, and thus wound up with godawful spells like witch bolt). There should probably be a mechanic for encouraging themed casters, but it's nothing unique to psi.
Except for one key thing, Psionicists shouldn’t be “spellcasters” at all.
Two things:
1. You gave a list of spells/ features that are not dice roll based. I said in my original comment "there are exceptions". And yes, for every one you find that is non roll based, I can list 10 that are.
2. If this new class is not a spell caster, and not a martial class, then it is something entirely different to D&D, and a new mechanic, and my statement of "don't call this D&D anymore" stands. And yeah, I was around for the original Psionics, which was quickly cast aside, even though there were rules for it, because it was so utterly and irretrievably broken. The latest UA had Mystic, the most recent attempt at Psionics. We saw how quickly that died. There is a reason for that. It simply does not fit in the D&D setting, just like the 1st, and every attempt at creating a class/ mechanic for it.
Just let it be.
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Ummm...literally nobody said any new mechanics shouldn't roll dice. Besides which, not all mechanics in the game are reliant on rolling dice anyways, there are plenty of spells and other features that are one-and-done, cross off your spell slot/whatever other resource you have and don't worry about it any more, but that's beside the point. I'm not sure what it is you're arguing against.
Also, Sposta's been around since THAC0. He has a pretty good idea for what D&D is and isn't.
Well yes, but actually no. Many spells do use a spell attack, but then there's many, *many* more that don't and 1) use saving throws, 2) are dependent on your current number of hit points, and 3) don't have any limitations and just work, period. If magic was just a bunch of fighters going, "I shoot my crossbow and call it Magic Missile!" I think most people would recognize that is super lame.
Who said anything about not rolling dice?!? Certainly not I. I just said not using spells or spell slots. Much like this list of “magic but not spellcasting” features that already exist in D&D in this current edition:
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Bardsong shouldn't behave anything like divine magic shouldn't behave anything like sorcery. They do, because creating a new subsystem for each character type is a hassle, hard to balance, and isn't really worth the trouble. Psi is the same. If you don't like spell slots, try using the spell points variant, but I recommend using it for all casters if you use it at all.
Again, I challenge you on that one, Pantagruel.
Why should psychic characters have absolutely no edge over a character with absolutely no psychic abilities, but who gets to cherry-pick all the "Good' psychic spells (because of course psychic abilities are spells in this godawful messed-up system) whilst ALSO having the benefit of all the rest of their respective parent class' spell list and various subclass features?
How is that remotely fair or balanced to people who were so hopeful for useful, interesting, and unique psychic characters?
Please do not contact or message me.
See my point about how D&D doesn't do a good job encouraging themed casters. You're in no different a position than the player who decides to create any other themed spellcaster (for example, the sorcerer in my current game has decided to be lightning themed, and thus wound up with godawful spells like witch bolt). There should probably be a mechanic for encouraging themed casters, but it's nothing unique to psi.
I realize saying it now doesn't make a difference, but some things just shouldn't have been made spells in the first place. "Psionic" spells should not have been made spells. Hunter's Mark should not have been made a spell. Smite spells should have probably been rolled in as a Paladin feature instead of spells. Eldritch Blast makes sense as a spell, but let's be honest, so many Warlock features assume that you have it, it probably should have just been a part of the core class instead. Hell, there's probably more that I'm not even thinking of...
Then why force something to be a themed caster, if you know that this system handles anything but Fire Guy badly? If the problem has been identified, why actively desire and push for its persistence? Especially when elemental casters are frequently permitted the great good fortune of simply reassigning the damage of already existing spells - a lightning caster can create an Arc Bolt cantrip or otherwise create minor modifications to existing damage spells, and frankly many such casters only need a few signature spells to sell their theme. A blue dragon sorcerer with a serviceable lightning cantrip - of which they have their pick of millions in the DDB homebrew library if they don't want to bother making their own - a tendency towards the lightning variation of Dragon's Breath, and the actual Lightning Bolt spell at fifth level is basically set.
Saying other folks have it bad isn't really a solution, it's simply evidence the problem is widespread enough that an actual solution is even more strongly merited. Because again - what reason does anyone have to play a so-called "Psychic" sorcerer when the dragon sorcerer does literally ****off EVERYTHING the "psychic" sorcerer does, save with a much broader spell selection and a bunch of helpful class features?
Please do not contact or message me.
The easiest way to fix the themed spell caster issue is to create a ton of new spells, varied across multiple different elements. But you know that already, seeing as you (loosely and kinda unenthusiastically) agreed with me on the subject when I made a thread about it. I have a list for many of the underrepresented elements, but most of them are probably imbalanced, and I feel like my well of creativity has dried up on the subject.
But now you're changing the subject. Psionics is a fundamentally different beast than spellcasting, even if the end result is similar. How you should be looking at psionics is that the psychic spells are non-psionic spell casters attempting to duplicate with magic the abilities of people who are psionic. A mid to high level psionic character should be treated as though they had an always on Telepathic Bond if they are a telepath.
...I really do have to ask what thread you're reading, because in all 46 pages here, or in the combined 60 some pages of the other 2 (recent) threads on the subject, not a single person has suggested anything even remotely similar to "lol psionics doesn't roll dice".
I'm not. You're perfectly free to take Fireball and call it Molecular Excitation.
C'mon Pantegruel. That's a bad faith argument if ever I've seen one. You can do better than that.
Sorry, I forgot my names of AD&D psi powers, it's actually molecular agitation (though you'd actually use detonate). There's actually plenty of psi powers, in all editions of D&D, capable blowing up constructs and the like.
1e psionics didn't have disintegrate.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
1 hp damage cumulative per round. WOW that's dangerous. And that's AFTER a 10 round start up.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
To be honest, I haven't seen my AD&D books for thirty years, so while I remember psi being potentially stupidly dangerous at very low level, I don't remember why. In any case, my general point was that you can justify quite a lot as psi powers, so it's not actually all that limiting to call your sorcerer a psi.
Ah yes. To be playing D&D you have to always be rolling a d20.
Aid
Alarm
Alter Self
Animal Friendship
Animal Messenger
Antimagic Field
Beacon of Hope
Blur
Catnap
Ceremony
Clairvoyance
Clone
Comprehend Languages
Contingency
Do I need to list more? Spells don't have to roll dice.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Except for one key thing, Psionicists shouldn’t be “spellcasters” at all.
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But that isn’t the difference. The difference is that Psionicists don’t cast spells. This argument is like saying the Weapon Attacks should just be Spellcasting too.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
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I played with psionics in 1E/2E. As I recall, a lot of it had to do with psionic based combat between two psionic characters (id insinuation, tower of iron will, etc), although "psionic blast" could effect non psionic characters.
A big part of the issue is that WOTC is trying to keep psionics within the framework of the games current mechanics, and it was (originally) intended to be its own mechanic.
Two things:
1. You gave a list of spells/ features that are not dice roll based. I said in my original comment "there are exceptions". And yes, for every one you find that is non roll based, I can list 10 that are.
2. If this new class is not a spell caster, and not a martial class, then it is something entirely different to D&D, and a new mechanic, and my statement of "don't call this D&D anymore" stands. And yeah, I was around for the original Psionics, which was quickly cast aside, even though there were rules for it, because it was so utterly and irretrievably broken. The latest UA had Mystic, the most recent attempt at Psionics. We saw how quickly that died. There is a reason for that. It simply does not fit in the D&D setting, just like the 1st, and every attempt at creating a class/ mechanic for it.
Just let it be.