Thanks all for your replies. It made me realise (once more) that I have been acting too arrogant. I thought/hoped that people would react with answers like 'The DM can not kick players for such a small reason.' Or 'Kicking friends should be a group decission.' Or 'I had done the same in your case.'
But most of you applaud his perserverance, and most of you think that splitting up the group has become necessary. The situation was already breaking and my actions made it unrepairable..
*Sigh* When I signed up for DnD, I never realised that the game would become so personal.
While I love MidNightPlat's idea of two fluid tables, I don't think it is really up to me anymore to decide, right? The DM doesn't respond to me. I should just wait to see what he decided next game?
I am taking MusicScout advice and just wait a few days. And thanks for all the thorough analysing answers.
Also, next time I plan a coup, I'd first get your advise..
DnD is VERY personal - one of its few flaws. Oops... Sorry, I nah socialite. I just post so people shut up... It never works. Sigh. (PS. this is a joke)
*Sigh* When I signed up for DnD, I never realised that the game would become so personal.
Oh yes.
It is always personal. You can't avoid it because the people playing the game at the table are going to have out of game interactions -- in fact, OOC interactions happen way more than IC ones, in proportion to time spent. You talk to each other in between combat rounds, or in between RP, and each person's individual personality is going to come out at the table.
And let's remember, even professional actors can have issues working with each other, and they are trained, and paid, to work together without causing trouble, or taking things personally. They do anyway... often worse than the gamers at your table.
In terms of setting up 2 games... the other DM can't really stop you from setting up another game. Nor can he stop the other players from playing in it.
BUT... this doesn't have to be an either/or situation, and you don't need to make people choose. You can just say that you want to run a game too, and pick a different night, so that you are not rivaling him, but just in addition to him. Then if some of those people want to play in your game, they can. Invite the two people who got kicked, and then see what the other players do.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Excuse me; I don't mind causal players but 2 years and not knowing the rules for your pc is too long. I have ran 8+ tables before. i would take over the group but. No story line involving the casuals. Babysitter for those who have troubles with the rules. Turn the group into a beer and pretzels game style. That is if you all legal to drink.
The counter to that is that in 2 years a good DM should also have a good idea of their players. Stop giving important information that should be shared to someone not into social interaction and if there is someone who wants more fights, occasionally play to that and give more fights.
One virtually never has 'exactly the right people' at the table for your campaign. And aspects of the story beg the question 'Do these people really need more babysitting, or does the DM simply keep trying to shove them into positions they do not enjoy?
Also, if they are using spells 'wrong' and this is found out later, that implies the DM does not know the spells any better than they do and only discovers this by looking the spells up later themselves.
There are 400+ spells in 5e, do you really expect a DM to memorize every single spell? I personally know the most common spells and what they do (ex: fireball, shocking grasp, hellish rebuke, etc.), but I still have players frequently pull out spells I don't know. That is why it is their job to know THEIR spells, not the DM's. The same goes for class features. There are almost 100 non-ua subclasses so knowing every class feature is not possible for the DM, you should know the most common ones but you can't know them all. Thus, it is up to the player to know their spells and class features because no DM can know every class feature and spell.
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call me Anna or Kerns, (she/her), usually a DM, lgbtq+ friendly
That is why it is their job to know THEIR spells, not the DM's. The same goes for class features. There are almost 100 non-ua subclasses so knowing every class feature is not possible for the DM, you should know the most common ones but you can't know them all. Thus, it is up to the player to know their spells and class features because no DM can know every class feature and spell.
This.... 100%. It is on the players to know their own spells and class features.
Now... I know quite a few of them too... and sometimes I do know individual ones better than the players. But overall, I let the players run their characters. I have enough to do with the monsters, traps, and so forth.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Thanks all for your replies. It made me realise (once more) that I have been acting too arrogant. I thought/hoped that people would react with answers like 'The DM can not kick players for such a small reason.' Or 'Kicking friends should be a group decission.' Or 'I had done the same in your case.'
But most of you applaud his perserverance, and most of you think that splitting up the group has become necessary. The situation was already breaking and my actions made it unrepairable..
*Sigh* When I signed up for DnD, I never realised that the game would become so personal.
While I love MidNightPlat's idea of two fluid tables, I don't think it is really up to me anymore to decide, right? The DM doesn't respond to me. I should just wait to see what he decided next game.
I am taking MusicScout advice and just wait a few days. And thanks for all the thorough analysing answers.
Also, next time I plan a coup, I'd first get your advise..
Just to be clear, my impression is that everyone made mistakes, but nobody did anything “wrong.” There seem to be legitimate grievances all around, and maybe there weren’t handled as well as they could have been, but that’s just called “life.” From what you explained, your actions didn’t make anything “irreparable” (sorry, I just could quote that exactly, pet peeve), they just brought an already simmering situation to a boil. Like throwing salt into the pasta water.
Hopefully, in a few days the lines of communication can reopen and you can all reaffirm your friendships with one another.
And there is absolutely no problem with multiple DMs running multiple concurrent games for the same group of friends. The only issue usually comes from scheduling if some of the players are in both games. As long as everyone is considerate of each other that can be worked out. In other words, just don’t be wangrods and it should be okay. Sometimes you’ll have to postpone/reschedule for the other DM, sometimes they will have to do it for your campaign. It is what it is.
Excuse me; I don't mind causal players but 2 years and not knowing the rules for your pc is too long. I have ran 8+ tables before. i would take over the group but. No story line involving the casuals. Babysitter for those who have troubles with the rules. Turn the group into a beer and pretzels game style. That is if you all legal to drink.
The counter to that is that in 2 years a good DM should also have a good idea of their players. Stop giving important information that should be shared to someone not into social interaction and if there is someone who wants more fights, occasionally play to that and give more fights.
One virtually never has 'exactly the right people' at the table for your campaign. And aspects of the story beg the question 'Do these people really need more babysitting, or does the DM simply keep trying to shove them into positions they do not enjoy?
Also, if they are using spells 'wrong' and this is found out later, that implies the DM does not know the spells any better than they do and only discovers this by looking the spells up later themselves.
There are 400+ spells in 5e, do you really expect a DM to memorize every single spell? I personally know the most common spells and what they do (ex: fireball, shocking grasp, hellish rebuke, etc.), but I still have players frequently pull out spells I don't know. That is why it is their job to know THEIR spells, not the DM's. The same goes for class features. There are almost 100 non-ua subclasses so knowing every class feature is not possible for the DM, you should know the most common ones but you can't know them all. Thus, it is up to the player to know their spells and class features because no DM can know every class feature and spell.
it's certainly true. The last session we played, my bardlock broke out Dissonant Whispers for the first time, and that was a rude shock for the DM when I forced opportunity attacks because Dissonant Whispers does not count as "forced movement". The DM was less than pleased, and I was left thinking "why didn't I discover this spell sooner"
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
As a DM, I don't get upset when players have their characters do something I didn't know they could do. I mean yes, it helps them beat the monsters, but I am not on the side of the monsters, so why should I care?
For example, 2nd adventure, our Light Domain cleric busted out his Radiance of the Dawn against some goblins who were lying in wait to ambush the party. He is an Aarakocra, and he flew up, saw them hiding behind some rocks, and came out of the sun and hit them with it. This was a perfect thing for a Cleric of Apollo the sun god to do. He turned them all to ashes in one shot (they all failed their saves). I didn't get annoyed... I thought it was cool. It's been one of the memorable moments of the campaign.. and it was done at level 2, a time when PCs usually can't do very much that is memorable.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
He wasn't thrilled that I was able to force a bunch of OA on his monster that he was not expecting. He was caught with his pants down with the rules on how OA and forced movement worked.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
But again... I am not on the monster's side so... unless you did something game breaking, I would not have been "less than pleased."
The only thing I would say is if you do something like that as a player and it works the way you wanted, and that makes the battle easy, don't go around complaining the encounters are too easy. As long as you're OK with the encounter that was supposed to be challenging ending up a one-and-done... fine by me. I'm the DM... I have plenty more monsters where that one came from.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
This discussion about memorizing spells reminded me of a funny moment from Campaign 1 of Critical Role where one of the players suddenly and out of nowhere cast Conjure Woodland Beings and the spell literally says:
The GM has the creatures' statistics.
To which Matt Mercer jokingly said "**** that spell":D
It's rather odd that it says "the GM" rather than "the DM." I mean.... the term "DM" is nowadays (if not originally) a subclass of the "GM class"... All DMs, Judges, Referees, etc., are Game Masters... But it is quite rare to see D&D refer to a GM these days, rather than a DM.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
It's rather odd that it says "the GM" rather than "the DM." I mean.... the term "DM" is nowadays (if not originally) a subclass of the "GM class"... All DMs, Judges, Referees, etc., are Game Masters... But it is quite rare to see D&D refer to a GM these days, rather than a DM.
The term “DM” is copywritten so for spells published for free in the SRD they used the generic version for legal reasons.
It's rather odd that it says "the GM" rather than "the DM." I mean.... the term "DM" is nowadays (if not originally) a subclass of the "GM class"... All DMs, Judges, Referees, etc., are Game Masters... But it is quite rare to see D&D refer to a GM these days, rather than a DM.
The term “DM” is copywritten so for spells published for free in the SRD they used the generic version for legal reasons.
Huh, how about that. You learn something new every day :D
Wow what a pain it must have been for them to go through every bit and byte of the SRD and basic rules and scrub them of the term "DM". swapping it for GM.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Wow what a pain it must have been for them to go through every bit and byte of the SRD and basic rules and scrub them of the term "DM". swapping it for GM.
Swapping all instances of “DM” with “GM” take seconds in Word. The bigger issue was probably scrubbing all instances of other Trademarked terms to make sure none were accidentally unnoticed. (That’s why we have two versions of some spells, because “Bigby,” etc. were also Trademarked.) Accidentally miss one of those names from the list would have been no bueno. Think of all those little examples where “Bob’s character Bruenor” (or whichever) did a thing.... Who remembered all of that? Likely no one, so it had to be checked....
As for 'Dungeon Master' it is trademarked, which is not quite the same as copyrighted. Game Master is the better term regardless, IMO, since it is relatively rare that parties are going into actual dungeons.
This may be the case but there is a value in sticking to some tradition as a legacy. Not unlike using floppy disc as an icon for saving.
Wow what a pain it must have been for them to go through every bit and byte of the SRD and basic rules and scrub them of the term "DM". swapping it for GM.
Swapping all instances of “DM” with “GM” take seconds in Word. The bigger issue was probably scrubbing all instances of other Trademarked terms to make sure none were accidentally unnoticed. (That’s why we have two versions of some spells, because “Bigby,” etc. were also Trademarked.) Accidentally miss one of those names from the list would have been no bueno. Think of all those little examples where “Bob’s character Bruenor” (or whichever) did a thing.... Who remembered all of that? Likely no one, so it had to be checked....
It's funny, I have been reading Netheril: Empire of Magic recently and those were the times where you never had a simple spell. Even those that are now known as universal like Cloudkill or Teleport used to be called Tolodine's Cloudkill and Oberon's Teleportation. Even Fireball was Noanar's Fireball.
Of course I am not talking about the system, rather the setting/time period. They had a nifty table how to convert contemporary spells into "named spells".
The Trademarked ones were the names of the PCs run by the actual players in Gary Gygax’s campaigns when he was still inventing D&D.
Plus, the spells named after the wizards who created them only keep those names as long as living people remember those wizards’ names. Presumably, every spell once carried the name of its creator until people forgot them. One imagines that eventually people in the realms will forget names like Bigby or Rory. (If they weren’t attached to the IP anyway, it’s the meta knowledge that keeps them alive.)
Wait, what?! The spells are the spells. How could they lose their name?
Just like nobody remembers who invented the spinning wheel. Someone invented it, but who remembers anymore?
Well, if 1,000 years ago someone named Westly created Westly’s Wishing Spell, and after 800 or 900 years everyone forgets who Westly was, or that he even existed. So now, folks just call it Wish. The people of the realms still remember Bigby, Rory, Tasha, Mordenkainen, Tenser, Leomund.... They’re more recent after all.
But apparently people in the realms have already started to forget that Leomund created a Tiny Hut and a Secret Chest, or that Mordenkainen was the first to summon a Faithful Hound, or that Tenser needed to cary a bunch of coins back from a dungeon and created a Floating Disk to do it, or that it was Tasha who invented a spell to inflict Hideous Laughter on someone. And they have completely forgotten that it used to be names Tasha’s Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter.
We remember because it is meta knowledge. But the fictional people of the realms don’t have that meta knowledge.
DnD is VERY personal - one of its few flaws. Oops... Sorry, I nah socialite. I just post so people shut up... It never works. Sigh. (PS. this is a joke)
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Luz Noceda would like to remind you that you're worth loving!
Oh yes.
It is always personal. You can't avoid it because the people playing the game at the table are going to have out of game interactions -- in fact, OOC interactions happen way more than IC ones, in proportion to time spent. You talk to each other in between combat rounds, or in between RP, and each person's individual personality is going to come out at the table.
And let's remember, even professional actors can have issues working with each other, and they are trained, and paid, to work together without causing trouble, or taking things personally. They do anyway... often worse than the gamers at your table.
In terms of setting up 2 games... the other DM can't really stop you from setting up another game. Nor can he stop the other players from playing in it.
BUT... this doesn't have to be an either/or situation, and you don't need to make people choose. You can just say that you want to run a game too, and pick a different night, so that you are not rivaling him, but just in addition to him. Then if some of those people want to play in your game, they can. Invite the two people who got kicked, and then see what the other players do.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
There are 400+ spells in 5e, do you really expect a DM to memorize every single spell? I personally know the most common spells and what they do (ex: fireball, shocking grasp, hellish rebuke, etc.), but I still have players frequently pull out spells I don't know. That is why it is their job to know THEIR spells, not the DM's. The same goes for class features. There are almost 100 non-ua subclasses so knowing every class feature is not possible for the DM, you should know the most common ones but you can't know them all. Thus, it is up to the player to know their spells and class features because no DM can know every class feature and spell.
call me Anna or Kerns, (she/her), usually a DM, lgbtq+ friendly
This.... 100%. It is on the players to know their own spells and class features.
Now... I know quite a few of them too... and sometimes I do know individual ones better than the players. But overall, I let the players run their characters. I have enough to do with the monsters, traps, and so forth.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Just to be clear, my impression is that everyone made mistakes, but nobody did anything “wrong.” There seem to be legitimate grievances all around, and maybe there weren’t handled as well as they could have been, but that’s just called “life.” From what you explained, your actions didn’t make anything “irreparable” (sorry, I just could quote that exactly, pet peeve), they just brought an already simmering situation to a boil. Like throwing salt into the pasta water.
Hopefully, in a few days the lines of communication can reopen and you can all reaffirm your friendships with one another.
And there is absolutely no problem with multiple DMs running multiple concurrent games for the same group of friends. The only issue usually comes from scheduling if some of the players are in both games. As long as everyone is considerate of each other that can be worked out. In other words, just don’t be wangrods and it should be okay. Sometimes you’ll have to postpone/reschedule for the other DM, sometimes they will have to do it for your campaign. It is what it is.
Good luck.
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it's certainly true. The last session we played, my bardlock broke out Dissonant Whispers for the first time, and that was a rude shock for the DM when I forced opportunity attacks because Dissonant Whispers does not count as "forced movement". The DM was less than pleased, and I was left thinking "why didn't I discover this spell sooner"
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
My question is why?
As a DM, I don't get upset when players have their characters do something I didn't know they could do. I mean yes, it helps them beat the monsters, but I am not on the side of the monsters, so why should I care?
For example, 2nd adventure, our Light Domain cleric busted out his Radiance of the Dawn against some goblins who were lying in wait to ambush the party. He is an Aarakocra, and he flew up, saw them hiding behind some rocks, and came out of the sun and hit them with it. This was a perfect thing for a Cleric of Apollo the sun god to do. He turned them all to ashes in one shot (they all failed their saves). I didn't get annoyed... I thought it was cool. It's been one of the memorable moments of the campaign.. and it was done at level 2, a time when PCs usually can't do very much that is memorable.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
He let me do it.
He wasn't thrilled that I was able to force a bunch of OA on his monster that he was not expecting. He was caught with his pants down with the rules on how OA and forced movement worked.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
But again... I am not on the monster's side so... unless you did something game breaking, I would not have been "less than pleased."
The only thing I would say is if you do something like that as a player and it works the way you wanted, and that makes the battle easy, don't go around complaining the encounters are too easy. As long as you're OK with the encounter that was supposed to be challenging ending up a one-and-done... fine by me. I'm the DM... I have plenty more monsters where that one came from.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
This discussion about memorizing spells reminded me of a funny moment from Campaign 1 of Critical Role where one of the players suddenly and out of nowhere cast Conjure Woodland Beings and the spell literally says:
The GM has the creatures' statistics.
To which Matt Mercer jokingly said "**** that spell":D
It's rather odd that it says "the GM" rather than "the DM." I mean.... the term "DM" is nowadays (if not originally) a subclass of the "GM class"... All DMs, Judges, Referees, etc., are Game Masters... But it is quite rare to see D&D refer to a GM these days, rather than a DM.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
The term “DM” is copywritten so for spells published for free in the SRD they used the generic version for legal reasons.
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Huh, how about that. You learn something new every day :D
Wow what a pain it must have been for them to go through every bit and byte of the SRD and basic rules and scrub them of the term "DM". swapping it for GM.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I meant DM as in “Dungeon Master” not the specific abbreviation. Please forgive my sloth.
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Swapping all instances of “DM” with “GM” take seconds in Word. The bigger issue was probably scrubbing all instances of other Trademarked terms to make sure none were accidentally unnoticed. (That’s why we have two versions of some spells, because “Bigby,” etc. were also Trademarked.) Accidentally miss one of those names from the list would have been no bueno. Think of all those little examples where “Bob’s character Bruenor” (or whichever) did a thing.... Who remembered all of that? Likely no one, so it had to be checked....
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This may be the case but there is a value in sticking to some tradition as a legacy. Not unlike using floppy disc as an icon for saving.
It's funny, I have been reading Netheril: Empire of Magic recently and those were the times where you never had a simple spell. Even those that are now known as universal like Cloudkill or Teleport used to be called Tolodine's Cloudkill and Oberon's Teleportation. Even Fireball was Noanar's Fireball.
Of course I am not talking about the system, rather the setting/time period. They had a nifty table how to convert contemporary spells into "named spells".
The Trademarked ones were the names of the PCs run by the actual players in Gary Gygax’s campaigns when he was still inventing D&D.
Plus, the spells named after the wizards who created them only keep those names as long as living people remember those wizards’ names. Presumably, every spell once carried the name of its creator until people forgot them. One imagines that eventually people in the realms will forget names like Bigby or Rory. (If they weren’t attached to the IP anyway, it’s the meta knowledge that keeps them alive.)
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Wait, what?! The spells are the spells. How could they lose their name?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
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"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
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Just like nobody remembers who invented the spinning wheel. Someone invented it, but who remembers anymore?
Well, if 1,000 years ago someone named Westly created Westly’s Wishing Spell, and after 800 or 900 years everyone forgets who Westly was, or that he even existed. So now, folks just call it Wish. The people of the realms still remember Bigby, Rory, Tasha, Mordenkainen, Tenser, Leomund.... They’re more recent after all.
But apparently people in the realms have already started to forget that Leomund created a Tiny Hut and a Secret Chest, or that Mordenkainen was the first to summon a Faithful Hound, or that Tenser needed to cary a bunch of coins back from a dungeon and created a Floating Disk to do it, or that it was Tasha who invented a spell to inflict Hideous Laughter on someone. And they have completely forgotten that it used to be names Tasha’s Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter.
We remember because it is meta knowledge. But the fictional people of the realms don’t have that meta knowledge.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting