So in my last session, a player new to DnD joined my 5e campaign and he's playing an illusion-focused wizard. I don't have a lot of experience DMing (most of it comes from listening to DnD podcasts for years) but I want to always reward creativity. So when he tried using minor illusion during combat to make it seem that someone is attacking the monster from behind to get a monster to turn around I was a bit unsure what to do. I told him that there is no real benefit when an enemy is not facing you in combat (something I find slightly stupid) and that he might want to use a different spell. I could tell that that was really disappointing to him, and he started choosing another spell with a lot of drag in his voice. I suggested implementing a homebrew rule for when an enemy is facing away from you (we have some homebrew rules we all agreed on and work well), so I said maybe we can agree that if you use a specific action to make them turn their back to you that attacks from behind get advantage. Now we used that for that specific fight (everyone was tired and we wanted to end the session) but we never really agreed if we're adding the rule or not.
I want to let him use illusion magic not necessarily meant for combat during combat, even minor illusion, but I don't find it balanced to have an at will that can give advantage from a distance with no rolls. Any ideas on what I could do to integrate his illusions during combat?
Sounds like you need to research the optional flanking rules. But to be nice, I would allow them to cast minor illusion in combat which gives advantage to the next person attacking that monster. But only the next PC, not the whole group. As to his "drag in voice" I never let puppy dog eyes affect my calling. As you are both learning, make a call and let it stand until both sides understand the rules better.
Doesn't seem so overpowered to just run it like you did, effectively it being the "help" action. True Strike is lauded as the worst cantrip in the game but that's essentially what this is. He is effectively using his Action to give another person advantage on their next attack.
Equally after being done once or twice in combat I'd give the enemies (the intelligent ones at least) a check to see if they wise up. If I got faked out several times I'd at least attempt to wise up.
Option 1) Use Minor Illusion as flavor for the Help action.
Option 2) Use Minor Illusion to create a opaque barrier to block line of sight. (Grants "unseen attacker" benefits until examined. Subsequent uses should probably have a lower DC)
Option 3) Be flexible. Let the target and the caster roll contested checks to see what happens. Since it's only a cantrip, you can give the target a bonus to resist the effect. Basically treat it like a "mental grapple". If the player beats the target, they get some minor benefit for the round. Just because the spell doesn't include a saving throw doesn't mean you can't ask for one as part of expanding it's functionality.
Minor Illusion creates the illusion of an object. It can't move. So it would be immediately apparent that the 'flanker' was inanimate. What you need for that is Silent Image at the least.
Keep in mind that Help has a 5ft range, so allowing MI to grant that benefit at range is more than just reflavoring. But I'd consider it for someone who really felt like the base Illusionist class features were lacking. As written it can be useful to provide cover, but the action economy of that is often going to be not great.
The School of Illusion's Improved Minor Illusion feature allows Minor Illusion to produce both audio and visual components, and an "object" technically includes a creature's very fresh corpse, so the resulting product could be moderately convincing. If the caster chooses something like a crossbow wielder, then the stillness might be chalked up to careful aiming.
However, for balance, it's also worth comparing this use of the spell against the standard Wizard trick of using an owl familiar to harry an enemy, which makes the 5ft range limitation less relevant. Familiars are prone to being shot out of the air, but act independently. Illusions are prone to being ignored entirely, burn an action, and have very limited utility.
Option 1) Use Minor Illusion as flavor for the Help action.
Additionally, it is the Help Action at range.
If a character is standing next to a foe, they can take the Help Action to give advantage on the next attack vs that foe. Using minor illusion (the Cast a Spell Action), they can do this from 30 feet away.
Option 1) Use Minor Illusion as flavor for the Help action.
Additionally, it is the Help Action at range.
If a character is standing next to a foe, they can take the Help Action to give advantage on the next attack vs that foe. Using minor illusion (the Cast a Spell Action), they can do this from 30 feet away.
I'd balance that out by allowing an immediate Wisdom save.
Creativity in combat is fun. Most players only look at their list of actions, and keep going back to one or two go-to options in combat. Hex, then Eldritch blast. Attack with sword, Smite if we're in a hurry or it's a crit. Hunter's Mark, shoot arrow. One save-or-suck spell, then Fire Bolt to save spell slots for the bigger fight later. That's not all the time, but it is most of the time unless the DM incentivizes breaking out of that rut. So any time a player says his character will try to draw a monster's attention, or parkour off two walls and a table to try and gain a tactical advantage, or swing a boiling cauldron of soup towards an enemy, or wants to do anything else that isn't the same attack they go with nine times out of ten I'm going to do my very best to let them try and let it have a meaningful effect. Not a better one than their staple actions that are spelled out in the books, but something and preferably something close.
The Help action in combat isn't exactly overpowered, to make an understatement. Using an action to provide advantage to an attack (and only an attack, not a save or anything like that) is almost always subpar in terms of the party's action economy. I say let them have it, throw in an extra limitation for good measure but let them have it.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Option 1) Use Minor Illusion as flavor for the Help action.
Additionally, it is the Help Action at range.
If a character is standing next to a foe, they can take the Help Action to give advantage on the next attack vs that foe. Using minor illusion (the Cast a Spell Action), they can do this from 30 feet away.
I'd balance that out by allowing an immediate Wisdom save.
Creativity in combat is fun. Most players only look at their list of actions, and keep going back to one or two go-to options in combat. Hex, then Eldritch blast. Attack with sword, Smite if we're in a hurry or it's a crit. Hunter's Mark, shoot arrow. One save-or-suck spell, then Fire Bolt to save spell slots for the bigger fight later. That's not all the time, but it is most of the time unless the DM incentivizes breaking out of that rut. So any time a player says his character will try to draw a monster's attention, or parkour off two walls and a table to try and gain a tactical advantage, or swing a boiling cauldron of soup towards an enemy, or wants to do anything else that isn't the same attack they go with nine times out of ten I'm going to do my very best to let them try and let it have a meaningful effect. Not a better one than their staple actions that are spelled out in the books, but something and preferably something close.
The Help action in combat isn't exactly overpowered, to make an understatement. Using an action to provide advantage to an attack (and only an attack, not a save or anything like that) is almost always subpar in terms of the party's action economy. I say let them have it, throw in an extra limitation for good measure but let them have it.
I like the idea, I'll take the idea to my players, thanks!
I'd give the target a save (probably an INT save rather than WIS, since it is deducing whether something is real or fake). Failure will give advantage for one turn. But this would work once per individual target -- once you do it, they realize it's an illusion, and next time they just ignore it/disbelieve.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I'd give the target a save (probably an INT save rather than WIS, since it is deducing whether something is real or fake). Failure will give advantage for one turn. But this would work once per individual target -- once you do it, they realize it's an illusion, and next time they just ignore it/disbelieve.
That totally works too. I just went for a slightly different approach. I figure the save would be to avoid being distracted by the illusion, not to realize it's not real. To determine it's not real would still require an Intelligence (Investigation) check as per normal, including spending an action to interact with the illusion. I prefer it like that because it keeps changes to the spell minimal (an extra use for it, while everything else stays as is), and because Int saves tend to have a relatively low chance of success so a Wis save is arguably more meaningful. Otherwise I agree an Int save is more in line with how the spell normally works.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Let your player know that creating illusionary creatures is something they can look forward to in the future. Because they are low level yet, their illusions are limited to single sense - sound or visual. In addition, the visual illusions don't move.
This does not make them useless, it just means they have to be creative about it.
They can create the sound of shouting or footsteps from a different direction. They can create the illusion of a wall, box, tapestry, pit in the ground or pool of mud.
It may, or may not work but at least they know the limits of the spell.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Minor illusion says create an image of an OBJECT not another creature attacking.
An object like a dancing sword or a trap about to be sprung?
A lovely dancing sword, frozen in mid dance.
I don't think Minor image specifies it has to be still, though that's likely the intention. However, personally I'd say it doesn't really matter. The idea is just to provide a momentary distraction. The illusion could be a taxidermied dog posed to be lunging towards the enemy, if we want to quibble about the spell limitations, and it's a homebrew rule regardless.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
There are a variety of ways you can go about this. I suggest taking a look at the optional Flanking rules, and think about the idea of targets. If the enemy your player faced was targeting someone else in the party at any point in that round and hasn't switched targets, then the enemy if "facing" them. A wat you can have your player implement his illusions then would be by taking the Help action and saying he is doing so with Minor Illusion as part of that action, forcing the creature to make the Investigation check on his illusion with disadvantage because the enemy's target is not the illusion-focused wizard, otherwise the enemy would make the check as normal. On a failure, he is cannot discern the illusion from reality and thus his Help action procs with the benefits of the Help action (When you take the Help action, the creature you aid gains advantage on the next ability check it makes to perform the task you are helping with, provided that it makes the check before the start of your next turn. Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint, distract the target, or in some other way team up to make your ally’s Attack more effective. If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first Attack roll is made with advantage.)
With other illusions, be sure to read them over to see if they have any written features such as Minor Illusion's Investigation check, so as to implement them in the same way. If they do not, simply have it to where the illusions are not compelling enough to require any check and can be easily discerned by anyone. However, by having your friend express his use of illusions in this way through the Help action, he is more than capable of doing such a thing with the official rules.
I big bear trap might also cause a shift in movement. Even if the target saw you cast it, they wouldn't necessarily know you can't create a trap with magic.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
One cool thing you could do is create a 5x5 object and the player can hide inside, allowing for a player to hide so long the enemy doesn't realize what you did. It's all about imagination. Don't forget minor illusion works for sounds and smells too! Make a dragon roar in the distance to scare away a foe, or make it smell like a hill giant is on the way. Whatever you or the player can think of, just roll with it!
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So in my last session, a player new to DnD joined my 5e campaign and he's playing an illusion-focused wizard. I don't have a lot of experience DMing (most of it comes from listening to DnD podcasts for years) but I want to always reward creativity. So when he tried using minor illusion during combat to make it seem that someone is attacking the monster from behind to get a monster to turn around I was a bit unsure what to do. I told him that there is no real benefit when an enemy is not facing you in combat (something I find slightly stupid) and that he might want to use a different spell. I could tell that that was really disappointing to him, and he started choosing another spell with a lot of drag in his voice. I suggested implementing a homebrew rule for when an enemy is facing away from you (we have some homebrew rules we all agreed on and work well), so I said maybe we can agree that if you use a specific action to make them turn their back to you that attacks from behind get advantage. Now we used that for that specific fight (everyone was tired and we wanted to end the session) but we never really agreed if we're adding the rule or not.
I want to let him use illusion magic not necessarily meant for combat during combat, even minor illusion, but I don't find it balanced to have an at will that can give advantage from a distance with no rolls. Any ideas on what I could do to integrate his illusions during combat?
Sounds like you need to research the optional flanking rules. But to be nice, I would allow them to cast minor illusion in combat which gives advantage to the next person attacking that monster. But only the next PC, not the whole group. As to his "drag in voice" I never let puppy dog eyes affect my calling. As you are both learning, make a call and let it stand until both sides understand the rules better.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
Doesn't seem so overpowered to just run it like you did, effectively it being the "help" action. True Strike is lauded as the worst cantrip in the game but that's essentially what this is. He is effectively using his Action to give another person advantage on their next attack.
Equally after being done once or twice in combat I'd give the enemies (the intelligent ones at least) a check to see if they wise up. If I got faked out several times I'd at least attempt to wise up.
Option 1) Use Minor Illusion as flavor for the Help action.
Option 2) Use Minor Illusion to create a opaque barrier to block line of sight. (Grants "unseen attacker" benefits until examined. Subsequent uses should probably have a lower DC)
Option 3) Be flexible. Let the target and the caster roll contested checks to see what happens. Since it's only a cantrip, you can give the target a bonus to resist the effect. Basically treat it like a "mental grapple". If the player beats the target, they get some minor benefit for the round. Just because the spell doesn't include a saving throw doesn't mean you can't ask for one as part of expanding it's functionality.
Minor Illusion creates the illusion of an object. It can't move. So it would be immediately apparent that the 'flanker' was inanimate. What you need for that is Silent Image at the least.
Keep in mind that Help has a 5ft range, so allowing MI to grant that benefit at range is more than just reflavoring. But I'd consider it for someone who really felt like the base Illusionist class features were lacking. As written it can be useful to provide cover, but the action economy of that is often going to be not great.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
The School of Illusion's Improved Minor Illusion feature allows Minor Illusion to produce both audio and visual components, and an "object" technically includes a creature's very fresh corpse, so the resulting product could be moderately convincing. If the caster chooses something like a crossbow wielder, then the stillness might be chalked up to careful aiming.
However, for balance, it's also worth comparing this use of the spell against the standard Wizard trick of using an owl familiar to harry an enemy, which makes the 5ft range limitation less relevant. Familiars are prone to being shot out of the air, but act independently. Illusions are prone to being ignored entirely, burn an action, and have very limited utility.
Additionally, it is the Help Action at range.
If a character is standing next to a foe, they can take the Help Action to give advantage on the next attack vs that foe. Using minor illusion (the Cast a Spell Action), they can do this from 30 feet away.
I'd balance that out by allowing an immediate Wisdom save.
Creativity in combat is fun. Most players only look at their list of actions, and keep going back to one or two go-to options in combat. Hex, then Eldritch blast. Attack with sword, Smite if we're in a hurry or it's a crit. Hunter's Mark, shoot arrow. One save-or-suck spell, then Fire Bolt to save spell slots for the bigger fight later. That's not all the time, but it is most of the time unless the DM incentivizes breaking out of that rut. So any time a player says his character will try to draw a monster's attention, or parkour off two walls and a table to try and gain a tactical advantage, or swing a boiling cauldron of soup towards an enemy, or wants to do anything else that isn't the same attack they go with nine times out of ten I'm going to do my very best to let them try and let it have a meaningful effect. Not a better one than their staple actions that are spelled out in the books, but something and preferably something close.
The Help action in combat isn't exactly overpowered, to make an understatement. Using an action to provide advantage to an attack (and only an attack, not a save or anything like that) is almost always subpar in terms of the party's action economy. I say let them have it, throw in an extra limitation for good measure but let them have it.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I like the idea, I'll take the idea to my players, thanks!
I'd give the target a save (probably an INT save rather than WIS, since it is deducing whether something is real or fake). Failure will give advantage for one turn. But this would work once per individual target -- once you do it, they realize it's an illusion, and next time they just ignore it/disbelieve.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
That totally works too. I just went for a slightly different approach. I figure the save would be to avoid being distracted by the illusion, not to realize it's not real. To determine it's not real would still require an Intelligence (Investigation) check as per normal, including spending an action to interact with the illusion. I prefer it like that because it keeps changes to the spell minimal (an extra use for it, while everything else stays as is), and because Int saves tend to have a relatively low chance of success so a Wis save is arguably more meaningful. Otherwise I agree an Int save is more in line with how the spell normally works.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Let your player know that creating illusionary creatures is something they can look forward to in the future. Because they are low level yet, their illusions are limited to single sense - sound or visual. In addition, the visual illusions don't move.
This does not make them useless, it just means they have to be creative about it.
They can create the sound of shouting or footsteps from a different direction. They can create the illusion of a wall, box, tapestry, pit in the ground or pool of mud.
It may, or may not work but at least they know the limits of the spell.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Minor illusion says create an image of an OBJECT not another creature attacking.
An object like a dancing sword or a trap about to be sprung?
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
A lovely dancing sword, frozen in mid dance.
I don't think Minor image specifies it has to be still, though that's likely the intention. However, personally I'd say it doesn't really matter. The idea is just to provide a momentary distraction. The illusion could be a taxidermied dog posed to be lunging towards the enemy, if we want to quibble about the spell limitations, and it's a homebrew rule regardless.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
There are a variety of ways you can go about this. I suggest taking a look at the optional Flanking rules, and think about the idea of targets. If the enemy your player faced was targeting someone else in the party at any point in that round and hasn't switched targets, then the enemy if "facing" them. A wat you can have your player implement his illusions then would be by taking the Help action and saying he is doing so with Minor Illusion as part of that action, forcing the creature to make the Investigation check on his illusion with disadvantage because the enemy's target is not the illusion-focused wizard, otherwise the enemy would make the check as normal. On a failure, he is cannot discern the illusion from reality and thus his Help action procs with the benefits of the Help action (When you take the Help action, the creature you aid gains advantage on the next ability check it makes to perform the task you are helping with, provided that it makes the check before the start of your next turn. Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint, distract the target, or in some other way team up to make your ally’s Attack more effective. If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first Attack roll is made with advantage.)
With other illusions, be sure to read them over to see if they have any written features such as Minor Illusion's Investigation check, so as to implement them in the same way. If they do not, simply have it to where the illusions are not compelling enough to require any check and can be easily discerned by anyone. However, by having your friend express his use of illusions in this way through the Help action, he is more than capable of doing such a thing with the official rules.
I big bear trap might also cause a shift in movement. Even if the target saw you cast it, they wouldn't necessarily know you can't create a trap with magic.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
One cool thing you could do is create a 5x5 object and the player can hide inside, allowing for a player to hide so long the enemy doesn't realize what you did. It's all about imagination. Don't forget minor illusion works for sounds and smells too! Make a dragon roar in the distance to scare away a foe, or make it smell like a hill giant is on the way. Whatever you or the player can think of, just roll with it!