I'm going to say something thing before this thread devolves into a dumpster fire.
F@#! science. Seriously. This is a game where the Material Planes are floating inside a giant gemstone and giant spaceships float between visiting different gemstones. Stars are facets on said gemstones. Strong possibility of the world being flat. Scientifically, dragon's can't fly. Halflings all possess touches of luck magic as a genetic quality.
Science does not exist in DnD. * Arguments based on science hold no weight.
* I mean the laws of science as understood by real world scholars, not the scientific process.
I'm going to say something thing before this thread devolves into a dumpster fire.
F@#! science. Seriously. This is a game where the Material Planes are floating inside a giant gemstone and giant spaceships float between visiting different gemstones. Stars are facets on said gemstones. Strong possibility of the world being flat. Scientifically, dragon's can't fly. Halflings all possess touches of luck magic as a genetic quality.
Science does not exist in DnD. * Arguments based on science hold no weight.
* I mean the laws of science as understood by real world scholars, not the scientific process.
It is fiction and as all good fiction, requires a willing suspension of disbelief, but that suspension only works if the creator of said fiction comes halfway.
Suspension of disbelief doesn't work by expecting the participant to belief whatever you say (or, rather, don't say). Try having all your PCs instantly turn into X at your next GMing session and see how well it works when you never provide ANY explanation for why it happened. See how well that works.
I'm going to say something thing before this thread devolves into a dumpster fire.
F@#! science. Seriously. This is a game where the Material Planes are floating inside a giant gemstone and giant spaceships float between visiting different gemstones. Stars are facets on said gemstones. Strong possibility of the world being flat. Scientifically, dragon's can't fly. Halflings all possess touches of luck magic as a genetic quality.
Science does not exist in DnD. * Arguments based on science hold no weight.
* I mean the laws of science as understood by real world scholars, not the scientific process.
Oh well, guess we better throw out anything with science involved in the game then. Anything with a weight attached to it, or distances, or movement speed. You cannot pick and choose only the parts that you like.
It's not like the game actually takes into account physics, chemistry, biology, biomechanics, thermodynamics...trying to explain basically any mechanic in D&D in terms of real-world logic is a shell game.
It's magic. It's fantasy. "A wizard did it." If people stressed as much about, say, carry limits as they do "race" mechanics, no one would bother playing. In the grand scheme of things, ST 20 halflings and CHA 20 half-orcs aren't going to ruin anything.
It's not like the game actually takes into account physics, chemistry, biology, biomechanics, thermodynamics...trying to explain basically any mechanic in D&D in terms of real-world logic is a shell game.
It's magic. It's fantasy. "A wizard did it." If people stressed as much about, say, carry limits as they do "race" mechanics, no one would bother playing. In the grand scheme of things, ST 20 halflings and CHA 20 half-orcs aren't going to ruin anything.
It's not like the game actually takes into account physics, chemistry, biology, biomechanics, thermodynamics...trying to explain basically any mechanic in D&D in terms of real-world logic is a shell game.
It's magic. It's fantasy. "A wizard did it." If people stressed as much about, say, carry limits as they do "race" mechanics, no one would bother playing. In the grand scheme of things, ST 20 halflings and CHA 20 half-orcs aren't going to ruin anything.
Sure, I mean, while we’re at it, let’s make 1/2 Orcs 3ft tall, living pastoral lives, loving to cook and eat, having great dental hygiene, civilized, and neighborly. Why not? It is all just fantasy anyway.
Oh well, guess we better throw out anything with science involved in the game then. Anything with a weight attached to it, or distances, or movement speed. You cannot pick and choose only the parts that you like.
Well... you can, but it leads the game down the road of a particular style of play -- sort of the Bugs Bunny cartoon route, where you can paint a tunnel on the side of a mountain and run into it, but when Coyote tries to run into it he either smashes into a solid mountainside, or else a train comes out of it and runs it over. Or where the Coyote can run through a cloud of smoke over a cliff and out into thin air and not drop because he doesn't realize he's in mid-air, but when the smoke clears and he looks down, as soon as he realizes gravity should be affecting him, bingo, it does.
These sorts of silly cartoon examples are not D&D, of course... but they are examples of what happens when you decide that in the game you're playing, none of the physical laws we know and have experience with apply if you don't want them to, or if they are inconvenient. And I love a good Looney Toons episode as much as the next guy (maybe more -- I'm a big fan of Wile E. Coyote...), but I don't necessarily want my D&D game to feel like that. Nor my Champions game.
There is a reason nobody was ever allowed to play Mighty Mouse in our Champions group -- and it wasn't because the rules didn't allow it. Or that nobody liked Mighty Mouse. It's because a 4" tall supermouse that could pick up trains and throw them at towering villains or Atomic Monsters that have broken out of the lab just takes the campaign into a level of ridiculousness that nobody in my group was willing to engage in.
And sure, they're not 4" tall, but the 24 STR halfling Barbarian beating the snot out of hill giants is almost the same exact visual as a Mighty Mouse cartoon.... If that's what you want in your D&D campaign, go for it. To each their own.
But I think it is important to recognize what one is doing to the fictional world's tone and tenor, when one decides to just throw all the normal physical laws out the window.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
It's not like the game actually takes into account physics, chemistry, biology, biomechanics, thermodynamics...trying to explain basically any mechanic in D&D in terms of real-world logic is a shell game.
It's magic. It's fantasy. "A wizard did it." If people stressed as much about, say, carry limits as they do "race" mechanics, no one would bother playing. In the grand scheme of things, ST 20 halflings and CHA 20 half-orcs aren't going to ruin anything.
Sure, I mean, while we’re at it, let’s make 1/2 Orcs 3ft tall, living pastoral lives, loving to cook and eat, having great dental hygiene, civilized, and neighborly. Why not? It is all just fantasy anyway.
(I mean, if you want to go all reductio ad absurdum with this...)
Actually, I don't think even that would break anything. Someone wants to play "small" but call themselves an orc, I see no problem.
It's not like the game actually takes into account physics, chemistry, biology, biomechanics, thermodynamics...trying to explain basically any mechanic in D&D in terms of real-world logic is a shell game.
It's magic. It's fantasy. "A wizard did it." If people stressed as much about, say, carry limits as they do "race" mechanics, no one would bother playing. In the grand scheme of things, ST 20 halflings and CHA 20 half-orcs aren't going to ruin anything.
Falling damage seems to account for Newton and gravity.
Specific examples aside, all D&D worlds are rooted in real-world logic and physics. Magic and suspension of disbelief allow us to make sense of why things are possible in a D&D world that are utterly fantastical in the real world, but for that to work they are described in the ruleset so everybody can know what isn't the same as in our world, and how and why that is. Everything else is presumed to be the same - the aforementioned gravity, seasons being caused by distance to the sun, snow being frozen precipitation and rain being non-frozen precipitation, babies being made as the result of sex and not of storks making deliveries, and so on.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
However, I also understand and expect science to hold true except when a reason is given. Ability Score Adjustments for species should exist. A 1/2 Orc has an undeniable physical advantage over a 1/2ling in terms of strength. Sheer mass makes it so.
stop trying to argue that I shouldn't be able to include it in my game.
I never argued that you shouldn’t be able to include whatever you want in your game.
I shouldn’t have to give you my permission to play your game however you want, but if you need that kind of affirmation, then know that I support you including whatever you want, no matter how ridiculous it is - gelatinous cubes as PCs, races not getting ability score adjustments, Mind Flayers hosting Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, etc.
Can't help but notice you cut out the part of my post where I illustrate that there are other significant mechanical differences between halflings and half orcs that serve to illustrate the disparity in their size. 2 STR is +1 to hit and damage and 2 feet farther when you jump. The penalties for being small make a bigger difference than that.
Your Strength stat is an abstract quality that affects the way you interact with the world in a few very specific ways. The reality is that a halfling is still objectively worse at, for example being a barbarian due to the limitations of their size. There's your verisimilitude. It's right there if you just tear your eyes from that STR stat for 2 seconds.
Falling damage seems to account for Newton and gravity.
Every level (hit die) you gain is another 10ft (or more) you can survive, give or take. That's not very newtonian.
The damage part is fairly newtonian (though not scientifically the same). I didn't say anything about how resilient characters may or may not be.
Regardless, that's hardly the point. The point is that D&D worlds have gravity, and that gravity causes characters to fall down, and that if they fall hard enough that hurts - unless the rules for the world specify that in this particukar setting, gravity works differently (or not at all). The basic assumption is always that D&D worlds behave like our world unless exceptions are specifically made.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
However, I also understand and expect science to hold true except when a reason is given. Ability Score Adjustments for species should exist. A 1/2 Orc has an undeniable physical advantage over a 1/2ling in terms of strength. Sheer mass makes it so.
stop trying to argue that I shouldn't be able to include it in my game.
I never argued that you shouldn’t be able to include whatever you want in your game.
I shouldn’t have to give you my permission to play your game however you want, but if you need that kind of affirmation, then know that I support you including whatever you want, no matter how ridiculous it is - gelatinous cubes as PCs, races not getting ability score adjustments, Mind Flayers hosting Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, etc.
Can't help but notice you cut out the part of my post where I illustrate that there are other significant mechanical differences between halflings and half orcs that serve to illustrate the disparity in their size. 2 STR is +1 to hit and damage and 2 feet farther when you jump. The penalties for being small make a bigger difference than that.
Your Strength stat is an abstract quality that affects the way you interact with the world in a few very specific ways. The reality is that a halfling is still objectively worse at, for example being a barbarian due to the limitations of their size. There's your verisimilitude. It's right there if you just tear your eyes from that STR stat for 2 seconds.
The reality is that the new rules make PC 1/2lings as objectively strong as PC 1/2 Orcs. That’s what I’m complaining about, not issues such as size differences.
It's not like the game actually takes into account physics, chemistry, biology, biomechanics, thermodynamics...trying to explain basically any mechanic in D&D in terms of real-world logic is a shell game.
It's magic. It's fantasy. "A wizard did it." If people stressed as much about, say, carry limits as they do "race" mechanics, no one would bother playing. In the grand scheme of things, ST 20 halflings and CHA 20 half-orcs aren't going to ruin anything.
Sure, I mean, while we’re at it, let’s make 1/2 Orcs 3ft tall, living pastoral lives, loving to cook and eat, having great dental hygiene, civilized, and neighborly. Why not? It is all just fantasy anyway.
(I mean, if you want to go all reductio ad absurdum with this...)
Actually, I don't think even that would break anything. Someone wants to play "small" but call themselves an orc, I see no problem.
We can keep going. Every PC can have all the same options. We can do a pure point buy of everything, like Hero Games. I mean, why not?
It's not like the game actually takes into account physics, chemistry, biology, biomechanics, thermodynamics...trying to explain basically any mechanic in D&D in terms of real-world logic is a shell game.
It's magic. It's fantasy. "A wizard did it." If people stressed as much about, say, carry limits as they do "race" mechanics, no one would bother playing. In the grand scheme of things, ST 20 halflings and CHA 20 half-orcs aren't going to ruin anything.
Sure, I mean, while we’re at it, let’s make 1/2 Orcs 3ft tall, living pastoral lives, loving to cook and eat, having great dental hygiene, civilized, and neighborly. Why not? It is all just fantasy anyway.
(I mean, if you want to go all reductio ad absurdum with this...)
Actually, I don't think even that would break anything. Someone wants to play "small" but call themselves an orc, I see no problem.
We can keep going. Every PC can have all the same options. We can do a pure point buy of everything, like Hero Games. I mean, why not?
Unfortunately, that is precisely where the "new. enlightened, woke D&D" is going. There are no species. Every char is a blob that you can then bolt stuff onto from a buffet of feats, innate abilities, and backgrounds. The people stamping their feet screaming for this have no interest in playing D&D. They want something else, that I assume is not available in the gaming market.
It's not like the game actually takes into account physics, chemistry, biology, biomechanics, thermodynamics...trying to explain basically any mechanic in D&D in terms of real-world logic is a shell game.
It's magic. It's fantasy. "A wizard did it." If people stressed as much about, say, carry limits as they do "race" mechanics, no one would bother playing. In the grand scheme of things, ST 20 halflings and CHA 20 half-orcs aren't going to ruin anything.
Sure, I mean, while we’re at it, let’s make 1/2 Orcs 3ft tall, living pastoral lives, loving to cook and eat, having great dental hygiene, civilized, and neighborly. Why not? It is all just fantasy anyway.
(I mean, if you want to go all reductio ad absurdum with this...)
Actually, I don't think even that would break anything. Someone wants to play "small" but call themselves an orc, I see no problem.
We can keep going. Every PC can have all the same options. We can do a pure point buy of everything, like Hero Games. I mean, why not?
Unfortunately, that is precisely where the "new. enlightened, woke D&D" is going. There are no species. Every char is a blob that you can then bolt stuff onto from a buffet of feats, innate abilities, and backgrounds. The people stamping their feet screaming for this have no interest in playing D&D. They want something else, that I assume is not available in the gaming market.
We saw this “people want something different” thing in defense of 4e when it came out. Which makes this a repeat of a bad idea.
It's not like the game actually takes into account physics, chemistry, biology, biomechanics, thermodynamics...trying to explain basically any mechanic in D&D in terms of real-world logic is a shell game.
It's magic. It's fantasy. "A wizard did it." If people stressed as much about, say, carry limits as they do "race" mechanics, no one would bother playing. In the grand scheme of things, ST 20 halflings and CHA 20 half-orcs aren't going to ruin anything.
Sure, I mean, while we’re at it, let’s make 1/2 Orcs 3ft tall, living pastoral lives, loving to cook and eat, having great dental hygiene, civilized, and neighborly. Why not? It is all just fantasy anyway.
(I mean, if you want to go all reductio ad absurdum with this...)
Actually, I don't think even that would break anything. Someone wants to play "small" but call themselves an orc, I see no problem.
We can keep going. Every PC can have all the same options. We can do a pure point buy of everything, like Hero Games. I mean, why not?
Unfortunately, that is precisely where the "new. enlightened, woke D&D" is going. There are no species. Every char is a blob that you can then bolt stuff onto from a buffet of feats, innate abilities, and backgrounds. The people stamping their feet screaming for this have no interest in playing D&D. They want something else, that I assume is not available in the gaming market.
We saw this “people want something different” thing in defense of 4e when it came out. Which makes this a repeat of a bad idea.
I mean, that's just nonsense.
Change is what keeps anything, even and especially a table-top game competing for space and attention in an increasing stuffed media landscape, alive and thriving. Not every change will be for the better but that doesn't mean that they stop trying. Or just following the money, whichever you prefer.
We can keep going. Every PC can have all the same options. We can do a pure point buy of everything, like Hero Games. I mean, why not?
Well, _I_ would be ecstatic about that. But WOTC isn't doing it. They've just let people shift their racial ASIs and are introducing a new "lineage" concept, of which we've only gotten a tiny UA preview.
And it looks like they're commiting to that (small) change, regardless of how many people "stamp their feet and scream" against it...
It's not like the game actually takes into account physics, chemistry, biology, biomechanics, thermodynamics...trying to explain basically any mechanic in D&D in terms of real-world logic is a shell game.
It's magic. It's fantasy. "A wizard did it." If people stressed as much about, say, carry limits as they do "race" mechanics, no one would bother playing. In the grand scheme of things, ST 20 halflings and CHA 20 half-orcs aren't going to ruin anything.
Sure, I mean, while we’re at it, let’s make 1/2 Orcs 3ft tall, living pastoral lives, loving to cook and eat, having great dental hygiene, civilized, and neighborly. Why not? It is all just fantasy anyway.
(I mean, if you want to go all reductio ad absurdum with this...)
Actually, I don't think even that would break anything. Someone wants to play "small" but call themselves an orc, I see no problem.
We can keep going. Every PC can have all the same options. We can do a pure point buy of everything, like Hero Games. I mean, why not?
Unfortunately, that is precisely where the "new. enlightened, woke D&D" is going. There are no species. Every char is a blob that you can then bolt stuff onto from a buffet of feats, innate abilities, and backgrounds. The people stamping their feet screaming for this have no interest in playing D&D. They want something else, that I assume is not available in the gaming market.
We saw this “people want something different” thing in defense of 4e when it came out. Which makes this a repeat of a bad idea.
I mean, that's just nonsense.
Change is what keeps anything, even and especially a table-top game competing for space and attention in an increasing stuffed media landscape, alive and thriving. Not every change will be for the better but that doesn't mean that they stop trying. Or just following the money, whichever you prefer.
Not every change is good and I believe getting rid of those things which make DND a brand is a bad change.
Whether YOU think doing so is important is irrelevant to me.
We can keep going. Every PC can have all the same options. We can do a pure point buy of everything, like Hero Games. I mean, why not?
Well, _I_ would be ecstatic about that. But WOTC isn't doing it. They've just let people shift their racial ASIs and are introducing a new "lineage" concept, of which we've only gotten a tiny UA preview.
And it looks like they're commiting to that (small) change, regardless of how many people "stamp their feet and scream" against it...
Yeah, pretty sure you were a little too young to experience the "New Coke" phenomenon. I am sure there were many in the board room of Coke saying the same thing.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'm going to say something thing before this thread devolves into a dumpster fire.
F@#! science. Seriously. This is a game where the Material Planes are floating inside a giant gemstone and giant spaceships float between visiting different gemstones. Stars are facets on said gemstones. Strong possibility of the world being flat. Scientifically, dragon's can't fly. Halflings all possess touches of luck magic as a genetic quality.
Science does not exist in DnD. * Arguments based on science hold no weight.
* I mean the laws of science as understood by real world scholars, not the scientific process.
It is fiction and as all good fiction, requires a willing suspension of disbelief, but that suspension only works if the creator of said fiction comes halfway.
Suspension of disbelief doesn't work by expecting the participant to belief whatever you say (or, rather, don't say). Try having all your PCs instantly turn into X at your next GMing session and see how well it works when you never provide ANY explanation for why it happened. See how well that works.
Oh well, guess we better throw out anything with science involved in the game then. Anything with a weight attached to it, or distances, or movement speed. You cannot pick and choose only the parts that you like.
It's not like the game actually takes into account physics, chemistry, biology, biomechanics, thermodynamics...trying to explain basically any mechanic in D&D in terms of real-world logic is a shell game.
It's magic. It's fantasy. "A wizard did it." If people stressed as much about, say, carry limits as they do "race" mechanics, no one would bother playing. In the grand scheme of things, ST 20 halflings and CHA 20 half-orcs aren't going to ruin anything.
Sure, I mean, while we’re at it, let’s make 1/2 Orcs 3ft tall, living pastoral lives, loving to cook and eat, having great dental hygiene, civilized, and neighborly. Why not? It is all just fantasy anyway.
Well... you can, but it leads the game down the road of a particular style of play -- sort of the Bugs Bunny cartoon route, where you can paint a tunnel on the side of a mountain and run into it, but when Coyote tries to run into it he either smashes into a solid mountainside, or else a train comes out of it and runs it over. Or where the Coyote can run through a cloud of smoke over a cliff and out into thin air and not drop because he doesn't realize he's in mid-air, but when the smoke clears and he looks down, as soon as he realizes gravity should be affecting him, bingo, it does.
These sorts of silly cartoon examples are not D&D, of course... but they are examples of what happens when you decide that in the game you're playing, none of the physical laws we know and have experience with apply if you don't want them to, or if they are inconvenient. And I love a good Looney Toons episode as much as the next guy (maybe more -- I'm a big fan of Wile E. Coyote...), but I don't necessarily want my D&D game to feel like that. Nor my Champions game.
There is a reason nobody was ever allowed to play Mighty Mouse in our Champions group -- and it wasn't because the rules didn't allow it. Or that nobody liked Mighty Mouse. It's because a 4" tall supermouse that could pick up trains and throw them at towering villains or Atomic Monsters that have broken out of the lab just takes the campaign into a level of ridiculousness that nobody in my group was willing to engage in.
And sure, they're not 4" tall, but the 24 STR halfling Barbarian beating the snot out of hill giants is almost the same exact visual as a Mighty Mouse cartoon.... If that's what you want in your D&D campaign, go for it. To each their own.
But I think it is important to recognize what one is doing to the fictional world's tone and tenor, when one decides to just throw all the normal physical laws out the window.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
(I mean, if you want to go all reductio ad absurdum with this...)
Actually, I don't think even that would break anything. Someone wants to play "small" but call themselves an orc, I see no problem.
Falling damage seems to account for Newton and gravity.
Specific examples aside, all D&D worlds are rooted in real-world logic and physics. Magic and suspension of disbelief allow us to make sense of why things are possible in a D&D world that are utterly fantastical in the real world, but for that to work they are described in the ruleset so everybody can know what isn't the same as in our world, and how and why that is. Everything else is presumed to be the same - the aforementioned gravity, seasons being caused by distance to the sun, snow being frozen precipitation and rain being non-frozen precipitation, babies being made as the result of sex and not of storks making deliveries, and so on.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Can't help but notice you cut out the part of my post where I illustrate that there are other significant mechanical differences between halflings and half orcs that serve to illustrate the disparity in their size. 2 STR is +1 to hit and damage and 2 feet farther when you jump. The penalties for being small make a bigger difference than that.
Your Strength stat is an abstract quality that affects the way you interact with the world in a few very specific ways. The reality is that a halfling is still objectively worse at, for example being a barbarian due to the limitations of their size. There's your verisimilitude. It's right there if you just tear your eyes from that STR stat for 2 seconds.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Every level (hit die) you gain is another 10ft (or more) you can survive, give or take. That's not very newtonian.
The damage part is fairly newtonian (though not scientifically the same). I didn't say anything about how resilient characters may or may not be.
Regardless, that's hardly the point. The point is that D&D worlds have gravity, and that gravity causes characters to fall down, and that if they fall hard enough that hurts - unless the rules for the world specify that in this particukar setting, gravity works differently (or not at all). The basic assumption is always that D&D worlds behave like our world unless exceptions are specifically made.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
The reality is that the new rules make PC 1/2lings as objectively strong as PC 1/2 Orcs. That’s what I’m complaining about, not issues such as size differences.
We can keep going. Every PC can have all the same options. We can do a pure point buy of everything, like Hero Games. I mean, why not?
Unfortunately, that is precisely where the "new. enlightened, woke D&D" is going. There are no species. Every char is a blob that you can then bolt stuff onto from a buffet of feats, innate abilities, and backgrounds. The people stamping their feet screaming for this have no interest in playing D&D. They want something else, that I assume is not available in the gaming market.
We saw this “people want something different” thing in defense of 4e when it came out. Which makes this a repeat of a bad idea.
I mean, that's just nonsense.
Change is what keeps anything, even and especially a table-top game competing for space and attention in an increasing stuffed media landscape, alive and thriving. Not every change will be for the better but that doesn't mean that they stop trying. Or just following the money, whichever you prefer.
Well, _I_ would be ecstatic about that. But WOTC isn't doing it. They've just let people shift their racial ASIs and are introducing a new "lineage" concept, of which we've only gotten a tiny UA preview.
And it looks like they're commiting to that (small) change, regardless of how many people "stamp their feet and scream" against it...
I left this thread for eight hours, and it has reached flame war status. This has been debated to death, so I'm out.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Not every change is good and I believe getting rid of those things which make DND a brand is a bad change.
Whether YOU think doing so is important is irrelevant to me.
Yeah, pretty sure you were a little too young to experience the "New Coke" phenomenon. I am sure there were many in the board room of Coke saying the same thing.