I think the best way to do this is to have a homebrew world where the undead are not similar to how they are in traditional fantasy worlds. Just to spitball for a bit, maybe an undead is allowed to accomplish tasks for the departed soul without the departed soul having to experience the pain, or feeling unmotivated thus allowing the soul to continue to have a positive impact on the world and getting a better place in the afterlife. Perhaps undead have an on/off switch in your world, and the departed soul can choose to stay connected or not. Perhaps upon death, the soul can choose to sit in the afterlife or wait to be re-incarnated. If it chooses to be re-incarnated, than the body cannot be used for unread. If it chooses to sit in the afterlife, then the necromancer can communicate with the soul of the bodies that are used. As long as the players at the table are OK with this, have fun.
Try Kelemvor, the god of death and the dead from the Forgotten Realms.
Followup question: is it EVER ethical/morally right to intentionally create an intelligent undead creature like a spectre or a vampire?
I suppose if you had consent it would be okay.
Okay. I guess creating a non-evil ghost or vampire (or ancient dead, or lich) wouldn’t necessarily be an evil act.
The creation of a ghost is usually some tragic event, but binding a spirit to the world is certainly evil. A vampire is created via the blood of another vampire, but could be ethical if consent is given. The creation of a lich is almost certainly evil because the ritual requires sacrifices. There is a good variant of lich that may get around this, but that's not the usual case.
Try Kelemvor, the god of death and the dead from the Forgotten Realms.
Followup question: is it EVER ethical/morally right to intentionally create an intelligent undead creature like a spectre or a vampire?
I suppose if you had consent it would be okay.
Okay. I guess creating a non-evil ghost or vampire (or ancient dead, or lich) wouldn’t necessarily be an evil act.
The creation of a ghost is usually some tragic event, but binding a spirit to the world is certainly evil. A vampire is created via the blood of another vampire, but could be ethical if consent is given. The creation of a lich is almost certainly evil because the ritual requires sacrifices. There is a good variant of lich that may get around this, but that's not the usual case.
Any L/G Hexblade can make a specter starting at 6th level.
Try Kelemvor, the god of death and the dead from the Forgotten Realms.
Followup question: is it EVER ethical/morally right to intentionally create an intelligent undead creature like a spectre or a vampire?
Kelemvor is the God I chose for my Grave Cleric. That would be the least accepting God when it comes to Undead. See the SCAG for details. Ethical Necromancy is purely subjective. Some religions, kingdoms, individuals will never see Necromancy in the form suggested as acceptable. On that note, look up Blood of Vol in E:RftLW for the opposite view.
Try Kelemvor, the god of death and the dead from the Forgotten Realms.
Followup question: is it EVER ethical/morally right to intentionally create an intelligent undead creature like a spectre or a vampire?
Kelemvor is the God I chose for my Grave Cleric. That would be the least accepting God when it comes to Undead. See the SCAG for details. Ethical Necromancy is purely subjective. Some religions, kingdoms, individuals will never see Necromancy in the form suggested as acceptable. On that note, look up Blood of Vol in E:RftLW for the opposite view.
Okay. Idk that about Kelemvor. I thought he was the patron of non-evil undead.
Try Kelemvor, the god of death and the dead from the Forgotten Realms.
Followup question: is it EVER ethical/morally right to intentionally create an intelligent undead creature like a spectre or a vampire?
I suppose if you had consent it would be okay.
Okay. I guess creating a non-evil ghost or vampire (or ancient dead, or lich) wouldn’t necessarily be an evil act.
The creation of a ghost is usually some tragic event, but binding a spirit to the world is certainly evil. A vampire is created via the blood of another vampire, but could be ethical if consent is given. The creation of a lich is almost certainly evil because the ritual requires sacrifices. There is a good variant of lich that may get around this, but that's not the usual case.
Any L/G Hexblade can make a specter starting at 6th level.
Can. But should? I don't think an enemy would ever consent to being turned into a walking corpse or having their spirit stolen from the afterlife.
Try Kelemvor, the god of death and the dead from the Forgotten Realms.
Followup question: is it EVER ethical/morally right to intentionally create an intelligent undead creature like a spectre or a vampire?
I suppose if you had consent it would be okay.
Okay. I guess creating a non-evil ghost or vampire (or ancient dead, or lich) wouldn’t necessarily be an evil act.
The creation of a ghost is usually some tragic event, but binding a spirit to the world is certainly evil. A vampire is created via the blood of another vampire, but could be ethical if consent is given. The creation of a lich is almost certainly evil because the ritual requires sacrifices. There is a good variant of lich that may get around this, but that's not the usual case.
Any L/G Hexblade can make a specter starting at 6th level.
Can. But should? I don't think an enemy would ever consent to being turned into a walking corpse or having their spirit stolen from the afterlife.
Well if they wanted to have a say they shouldn’t have attacked a L/G PC. Clearly they must be evil, and their penance shall be one day in service to those they would prey upon.
Try Kelemvor, the god of death and the dead from the Forgotten Realms.
Followup question: is it EVER ethical/morally right to intentionally create an intelligent undead creature like a spectre or a vampire?
I suppose if you had consent it would be okay.
Okay. I guess creating a non-evil ghost or vampire (or ancient dead, or lich) wouldn’t necessarily be an evil act.
The creation of a ghost is usually some tragic event, but binding a spirit to the world is certainly evil. A vampire is created via the blood of another vampire, but could be ethical if consent is given. The creation of a lich is almost certainly evil because the ritual requires sacrifices. There is a good variant of lich that may get around this, but that's not the usual case.
Any L/G Hexblade can make a specter starting at 6th level.
Can. But should? I don't think an enemy would ever consent to being turned into a walking corpse or having their spirit stolen from the afterlife.
Well if they wanted to have a say they shouldn’t have attacked a L/G PC. Clearly they must be evil, and their penance shall be one day in service to those they would prey upon.
I totally agree with you. This is one case where creating an intelligent undead is defo not an evil act (provided it’s only for one day).
Try Kelemvor, the god of death and the dead from the Forgotten Realms.
Followup question: is it EVER ethical/morally right to intentionally create an intelligent undead creature like a spectre or a vampire?
I suppose if you had consent it would be okay.
Okay. I guess creating a non-evil ghost or vampire (or ancient dead, or lich) wouldn’t necessarily be an evil act.
The creation of a ghost is usually some tragic event, but binding a spirit to the world is certainly evil. A vampire is created via the blood of another vampire, but could be ethical if consent is given. The creation of a lich is almost certainly evil because the ritual requires sacrifices. There is a good variant of lich that may get around this, but that's not the usual case.
Any L/G Hexblade can make a specter starting at 6th level.
Can. But should? I don't think an enemy would ever consent to being turned into a walking corpse or having their spirit stolen from the afterlife.
Well if they wanted to have a say they shouldn’t have attacked a L/G PC. Clearly they must be evil, and their penance shall be one day in service to those they would prey upon.
Exactly. It's self defense, and then a bit of minor, temporary soul stealing.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Starting at 6th level, you can curse the soul of a person you slay, temporarily binding it to your service. When you slay a humanoid, you can cause its spirit to rise from its corpse as a specter, the statistics for which are in the Monster Manual. When the specter appears, it gains temporary hit points equal to half your warlock level. Roll initiative for the specter, which has its own turns. It obeys your verbal commands, and it gains a special bonus to its attack rolls equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum of +0).
The specter remains in your service until the end of your next long rest, at which point it vanishes to the afterlife.
Once you bind a specter with this feature, you can’t use the feature again until you finish a long rest.
Starting at 6th level, you can curse the soul of a person you slay, temporarily binding it to your service. When you slay a humanoid, you can cause its spirit to rise from its corpse as a specter, the statistics for which are in the Monster Manual. When the specter appears, it gains temporary hit points equal to half your warlock level. Roll initiative for the specter, which has its own turns. It obeys your verbal commands, and it gains a special bonus to its attack rolls equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum of +0).
The specter remains in your service until the end of your next long rest, at which point it vanishes to the afterlife.
Once you bind a specter with this feature, you can’t use the feature again until you finish a long rest.
Awesome. Yeah, I could see a good character being able to use this feature without suffering an alignment penalty.
Exactly. It's self defense, and then a bit of minor, temporary soul stealing.
Yes, a very minor, very temporary bit of soul... not even stealing really. More like when the teacher took your yo-yo and wouldn’t give it back until the end of the day in 3rd grade.
Exactly. It's self defense, and then a bit of minor, temporary soul stealing.
Yes, a very minor, very temporary bit of soul... not even stealing really. More like when the teacher took your yo-yo and wouldn’t give it back until the end of the day in 3rd grade.
Okay, so Spirit Forfeiture, basically.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Exactly. It's self defense, and then a bit of minor, temporary soul stealing.
Yes, a very minor, very temporary bit of soul... not even stealing really. More like when the teacher took your yo-yo and wouldn’t give it back until the end of the day in 3rd grade.
There's a game out there where a group of necromancers were once part of the culture. That race believes that everyone of their people are supposed to go to their version of a heaven, but evildoers in life could not journey there until they paid the penance.
Necromancers were to give the spirits a chance to pay penance in temporary servitude, sometimes bodily and something bodiless depending on the appointed path... or be bound forever to the world and, in the case of the most unrepentant and dangerous, bound to a place to never roam free until the spirit relents. Once paid, the necromancers would help the spirit let go of their guilt to allow them passage into the afterlife.
In that story, one powerful necromancer strayed far from the path and desired to rule over life and death in direct contradiction to the religious beliefs. That one person destroyed the entire religion by raising an army into servitude before becoming undead, forever branding necromancy as evil, and even gaining so much power as to create a personal hell pocket dimension for refuge - which the few remaining necromancer managed to use to trap the person before fading into obscurity.
In the game, the bonds blocking the pocket hell are weakening and the dead are rising, toiling to free the necromancer. The player teams up with a necromancer of the old ways - the ones who were to guide the dead to the afterlife - to stop the trapped necromancer... and acquired the help of a tortured spirit of guilt who is redeemed... along with the trapped necromancer in a big twist - redemption even for the damned - something that the former necromancers failed to do when they gave into fear against such a powerful force.
The player learns that the original necromancers' increasing fear of that one necromancer is what turned the person further and further away from the people's goddess of the afterlife until the necromancer was blind with righteousness and hate.
Still, the ancient damage was done and the NPCs in the game never learn to trust necromancers even if the player does. There are far too many active, high-profile evil necromancers out there while the ones like the old ways necromancer mentioned above must hide their abilities from others. (In the game if the player chose to be a necromancer, the player cannot use certain abilities in view of city NPCs without being marked a criminal.)
EDIT: So... can there be a scenario of ethical necromancy? Yes. Will people accept it? Too much damage has been done by the bad ones and the bad ones are still out there causing enough mayhem to keep people from thinking differently about the art. I can see a very small few having their opinions swayed, but the overwhelming majority will never accept it.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Try Kelemvor, the god of death and the dead from the Forgotten Realms.
Followup question: is it EVER ethical/morally right to intentionally create an intelligent undead creature like a spectre or a vampire?
I suppose if you had consent it would be okay.
Okay. I guess creating a non-evil ghost or vampire (or ancient dead, or lich) wouldn’t necessarily be an evil act.
The creation of a ghost is usually some tragic event, but binding a spirit to the world is certainly evil. A vampire is created via the blood of another vampire, but could be ethical if consent is given. The creation of a lich is almost certainly evil because the ritual requires sacrifices. There is a good variant of lich that may get around this, but that's not the usual case.
Any L/G Hexblade can make a specter starting at 6th level.
Can. But should? I don't think an enemy would ever consent to being turned into a walking corpse or having their spirit stolen from the afterlife.
Well if they wanted to have a say they shouldn’t have attacked a L/G PC. Clearly they must be evil, and their penance shall be one day in service to those they would prey upon.
Sounds pretty evil to me. Remember, this is the universe in which freeing an evil soul from a soul coin is a good act. It stands to reason that enslaving an evil soul is still evil. Also, the vast majority of enemies aren't going to be true evil. Hexblades are right at home in murder hobo parties.
A necromancer could be a force of justice for the evildoers who are unable to pass on to a righteous afterlife (versus ending up in the Hells or, worse, the Abyss). They could be tasked to getting the dead evildoers to right their wrongs, but the means is just as important as the ends. This is the tricky bit, especially since the weight of being judge, jury, and executor (not executioner) is a heavy and easily corrupted responsibility.
How does such a necromancer become useful to an adventuring party? It seems to me that it is an occupation that doesn't lend itself to "adventuring" - meaning going into someone's residence, killing them, and taking all their stuff because someone said it was the right thing to do.
I feel that encountering an ethical necromancer NPC is more possible (as slim as it already is) than finding one in an adventuring party.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
@LeviRocks I don’t like murder hoboing. Do you think that creating an intelligent undead could ever be a non-evil act?
I think it could. Wights are intelligent, and can be created by upcasting Create Undead. The spell and rules don't say that creating undead (intelligent or otherwise) is a strictly evil act.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I think the best way to do this is to have a homebrew world where the undead are not similar to how they are in traditional fantasy worlds. Just to spitball for a bit, maybe an undead is allowed to accomplish tasks for the departed soul without the departed soul having to experience the pain, or feeling unmotivated thus allowing the soul to continue to have a positive impact on the world and getting a better place in the afterlife. Perhaps undead have an on/off switch in your world, and the departed soul can choose to stay connected or not. Perhaps upon death, the soul can choose to sit in the afterlife or wait to be re-incarnated. If it chooses to be re-incarnated, than the body cannot be used for unread. If it chooses to sit in the afterlife, then the necromancer can communicate with the soul of the bodies that are used. As long as the players at the table are OK with this, have fun.
The creation of a ghost is usually some tragic event, but binding a spirit to the world is certainly evil. A vampire is created via the blood of another vampire, but could be ethical if consent is given. The creation of a lich is almost certainly evil because the ritual requires sacrifices. There is a good variant of lich that may get around this, but that's not the usual case.
Any L/G Hexblade can make a specter starting at 6th level.
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Kelemvor is the God I chose for my Grave Cleric. That would be the least accepting God when it comes to Undead. See the SCAG for details. Ethical Necromancy is purely subjective. Some religions, kingdoms, individuals will never see Necromancy in the form suggested as acceptable. On that note, look up Blood of Vol in E:RftLW for the opposite view.
Okay. Idk that about Kelemvor. I thought he was the patron of non-evil undead.
And by ancient dead I meant mummies.
Can. But should? I don't think an enemy would ever consent to being turned into a walking corpse or having their spirit stolen from the afterlife.
Well if they wanted to have a say they shouldn’t have attacked a L/G PC. Clearly they must be evil, and their penance shall be one day in service to those they would prey upon.
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I totally agree with you. This is one case where creating an intelligent undead is defo not an evil act (provided it’s only for one day).
Exactly. It's self defense, and then a bit of minor, temporary soul stealing.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
The Hexblade
Accursed Specter
Starting at 6th level, you can curse the soul of a person you slay, temporarily binding it to your service. When you slay a humanoid, you can cause its spirit to rise from its corpse as a specter, the statistics for which are in the Monster Manual. When the specter appears, it gains temporary hit points equal to half your warlock level. Roll initiative for the specter, which has its own turns. It obeys your verbal commands, and it gains a special bonus to its attack rolls equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum of +0).
The specter remains in your service until the end of your next long rest, at which point it vanishes to the afterlife.
Once you bind a specter with this feature, you can’t use the feature again until you finish a long rest.
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Awesome. Yeah, I could see a good character being able to use this feature without suffering an alignment penalty.
Yes, a very minor, very temporary bit of soul... not even stealing really. More like when the teacher took your yo-yo and wouldn’t give it back until the end of the day in 3rd grade.
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Okay, so Spirit Forfeiture, basically.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Very temporary forfeiture.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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There's a game out there where a group of necromancers were once part of the culture. That race believes that everyone of their people are supposed to go to their version of a heaven, but evildoers in life could not journey there until they paid the penance.
Necromancers were to give the spirits a chance to pay penance in temporary servitude, sometimes bodily and something bodiless depending on the appointed path... or be bound forever to the world and, in the case of the most unrepentant and dangerous, bound to a place to never roam free until the spirit relents. Once paid, the necromancers would help the spirit let go of their guilt to allow them passage into the afterlife.
In that story, one powerful necromancer strayed far from the path and desired to rule over life and death in direct contradiction to the religious beliefs. That one person destroyed the entire religion by raising an army into servitude before becoming undead, forever branding necromancy as evil, and even gaining so much power as to create a personal hell pocket dimension for refuge - which the few remaining necromancer managed to use to trap the person before fading into obscurity.
In the game, the bonds blocking the pocket hell are weakening and the dead are rising, toiling to free the necromancer. The player teams up with a necromancer of the old ways - the ones who were to guide the dead to the afterlife - to stop the trapped necromancer... and acquired the help of a tortured spirit of guilt who is redeemed... along with the trapped necromancer in a big twist - redemption even for the damned - something that the former necromancers failed to do when they gave into fear against such a powerful force.
The player learns that the original necromancers' increasing fear of that one necromancer is what turned the person further and further away from the people's goddess of the afterlife until the necromancer was blind with righteousness and hate.
Still, the ancient damage was done and the NPCs in the game never learn to trust necromancers even if the player does. There are far too many active, high-profile evil necromancers out there while the ones like the old ways necromancer mentioned above must hide their abilities from others. (In the game if the player chose to be a necromancer, the player cannot use certain abilities in view of city NPCs without being marked a criminal.)
EDIT: So... can there be a scenario of ethical necromancy? Yes. Will people accept it? Too much damage has been done by the bad ones and the bad ones are still out there causing enough mayhem to keep people from thinking differently about the art. I can see a very small few having their opinions swayed, but the overwhelming majority will never accept it.
The game is The Elder Scrolls Online: Elsweyr.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Sounds pretty evil to me. Remember, this is the universe in which freeing an evil soul from a soul coin is a good act. It stands to reason that enslaving an evil soul is still evil. Also, the vast majority of enemies aren't going to be true evil. Hexblades are right at home in murder hobo parties.
A necromancer could be a force of justice for the evildoers who are unable to pass on to a righteous afterlife (versus ending up in the Hells or, worse, the Abyss). They could be tasked to getting the dead evildoers to right their wrongs, but the means is just as important as the ends. This is the tricky bit, especially since the weight of being judge, jury, and executor (not executioner) is a heavy and easily corrupted responsibility.
How does such a necromancer become useful to an adventuring party? It seems to me that it is an occupation that doesn't lend itself to "adventuring" - meaning going into someone's residence, killing them, and taking all their stuff because someone said it was the right thing to do.
I feel that encountering an ethical necromancer NPC is more possible (as slim as it already is) than finding one in an adventuring party.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
@LeviRocks I don’t like murder hoboing. Do you think that creating an intelligent undead could ever be a non-evil act?
I think it could. Wights are intelligent, and can be created by upcasting Create Undead. The spell and rules don't say that creating undead (intelligent or otherwise) is a strictly evil act.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
It largely boils down to whether or not undead are forced to be evil.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.