So I'm running a campaign of storm king's thunder and the party is nog 4 players of level 7, traveling alongside Harshnag a powerful sidekick as well.
The party is playing the encounters very strategicly and are well aligned amongst eachother, meaning that most deadly encounters are bested without any of them falling unconscious. So I have been boosting encounters with nice extra's, reinforcements and by adding in some monsters from the ice wind dale sourcebook.
Now they are traveling towards the Eye of the Allfather I would like to reintroduce the Crag Cats as I think the location is very well suited for it. But looking at the encounter builder I'm going to need a pack of them to make this even remotely interesting. But I'd rather, and also, would like to give them a real pack advantage in the snow to make things interesting.
So what I was thinking is making the following modifications: - 1 Pack leader Crag Cat (double hp, multiattack)
- All Crag cats gain the "Pack tactics feat"
Do you think this is still well balanced? I was thinking to make the pack 10-12 big.
If not I would like to hear your tips how to modify stat blocks :)
If you have too many monsters, it can makes fights drag on forever (like longer than BBEG fights, IME), and not be super fun. But you do you, you may have lots of fun.
Balancing "encounters" can be more helpful than balancing statblocks. Expect every combat to swing too far in one direction or the other and have a contingency plan to correct for it.
For example, if the party encounters a pack of zombies, there might be a hunting party already after them, which can share the work if the party starts to falter. Or, the zombie horde might be empowered by dark energy that keeps resurrecting them unless they are killed with radiant damage. The fight then becomes "find the power source", rather than a murderfest.
If the Crag Cats are too weak, toss in some environmental hazards.
12 is nominally deadly without any changes, with pack tactics I'd probably reduce that to 9 and count a leader as two monsters (so 7 plus a leader), but to make it a more interesting fight I'd be temped to have the attack occur during bad weather (disadvantage on perception); by level 7 you probably have someone with a passive perception of 17 or so, which makes life hard on critters with +7 stealth, but reducing that passive perception to 12 makes it a lot better...
10-12 is a bit much, not in terms of difficuly but just in terms of time, even if split them into groups for initiative, you still have all the rolls and all the saves when someone hits them with aoe.
If your players like strategy you might look at throwing a frost giant Everlasting One at them, along with some trolls. This will bring in some more giant lore that Harshnag can fill the party in on after the fight. Maybe look at the rules for an avalanche incase they do something to set one off.
A new enemy is going to be a lot more interesting that just a lot of the same ones they have faced from before. A frost giant mutated from eating trolls, (send to them by a troll god) because it wanted to gain more power fits in perfectly to the story, and the specific location too.
Typically crag cats are like other IRL big cats and hunt alone, or maybe as a pair when they have offspring to feed. I would only do an encounter with so many creatures if those creatures were known for running in mobs or swarms like kobolds or spiders. I try to think about the ecology and behavior of the stuff I'm throwing at the party - I think it goes a long way to make them seem like more than just stat blocks.
Personally, I'd take your Pack leader cat idea, make 2 of them and crank them up to CR 5 or so: double the HP, AC 15, claw/bite multiattack, add 2 to trained skills, attack, and pounce DC (or just add 1 - I think that's what a CR5 would actually have - but it sounds like your party might need a bit more of a challenge). Then have them act like real cats: hide in a high position and ambush with a pounce. The terrain, weather, and other aspects of the environment should all be advantageous to them - this is their domain. You could throw in 2-3 as-written crag cats, scale their size down to medium/small and describe them as cubs. If it's not just a murderhobo kind of game, the players might feel a little conflicted about killing animals just trying to feed their young.
You can also make things harder by increasing encounters per day rather than making encounters harder. Things can get pretty interesting when spells and abilities are running out, and an encounter that would have been a breeze is now much more challenging.
Make the narrative do some of the work - if they are attempting to navigate in the mountains, have the cats ambush and knock/drag one of them down the slope away from the others. Perhaps have them stalking the party, and have them be very adept stalkers, so have the party keep catching glimpses of movement behind them but never really see what it was. Perhaps have the cats attempt to herd the party to a killing ground, where others from the pack can pounce from above.
If the party has a small character, such as a dwarf or a gnome, then the cats may have a goal to grab them and drag them off into the night, turning it from a basic fight into a pursuit, having to fight through the other cats to get the gnome back. The other cats might stay to distract, and have their actions readied to dodge and dart back, giving the pack leader time to drag their prey away. This might have them discover a cave, or find some druid who is part of the pack in a cave, or some other interesting result!
I also like the idea of scatterbraind's for increasing encounters. Perhaps make a different difficult encounter which will drain their spells, then have the cats come in the night, interrupting the long rest, to try and drag off someone who's wounded. Try to build the wound into the narrative of the initial fight, meaning that player ends up with bloodsoaked clothes or something, even if the wound ends up being healed, then have the cats target them as small/weak/injured.
Thanks for all the good options! I really like the idea to buff them furter, reduce the numbers and to add some terrain advantages to pounce a character of the winding path up the snowy mountain.
I'd also like to implement the increase of encounters per day, but I struggle with that in this campaign because Storm King's Thunder requires so much travel, and they always use Leomund's Tiny hut to protect themselves. Now I know there are also ways to 'sabotage' those rests but all that I've read so far are....unlikely and not very realistic to the story or the environment. The other option of making multiple encounters, combat or otherwise, for each day to a point it drains their spells is just.....dragging the game along to long. BUT I do want them to feel that this journey is a challenge - I dislike jumping from location to location with just a narrative.
If you have any additional tips on that please let me know.
Thanks for all the good options! I really like the idea to buff them furter, reduce the numbers and to add some terrain advantages to pounce a character of the winding path up the snowy mountain.
I'd also like to implement the increase of encounters per day, but I struggle with that in this campaign because Storm King's Thunder requires so much travel, and they always use Leomund's Tiny hut to protect themselves. Now I know there are also ways to 'sabotage' those rests but all that I've read so far are....unlikely and not very realistic to the story or the environment. The other option of making multiple encounters, combat or otherwise, for each day to a point it drains their spells is just.....dragging the game along to long. BUT I do want them to feel that this journey is a challenge - I dislike jumping from location to location with just a narrative.
If you have any additional tips on that please let me know.
Note: I am not even slightly familiar with the module or your party, remember that when considering my suggestions.
A very skilled assassin is being sent after them/a thief spots them and wants their goods/something like that. It doesn't really matter, the point is that something finds a way into their Hut. It can also be a band of skilled thieves so that the party doesn't get a numeric advantage. That someone or something should be especially dangerous in close quarters. The best way to do it is control spells, probably. Maybe it's something else. The point is, you want your players to feel like they should drop the spell, else they might lose. Why won't they drop the spell? The thief's greatest friend, or friends, someone who would make great use of open spaces - maybe a group of archers - is waiting outside. The characters need to notice the threat outside, therefore forcing them to make a choice - in or out? Eventually, you don't want to actually kill the players, but it should be hard enough.
Another option: Four enemies that are perfect each at taking out one of your players. Do you have a druid with many concentration spells? Have a monk breaking their concentration constantly. A cleric with great healing spells? Even a spell like Chill Touch can negate all of it, and it's just a cantrip. A paladin with 27 AC? Take whatever save they're worst at and have an enemy utilize spells that require that save (Yes, they have that aura, but assuming they have low int, which is likely for a paladin, using Mind Sliver which, again, is just a cantrip, will help against that). A barbarian that hits for 40 dmg every second turn but has low wisdom? A spell like Slow might help. I could go on but I believe you're getting the point.
Thanks for your reply, just for you info my party consists out of a Divination Wizard, A school of creation Bard, a Hunter using the revised Hunter conclave and a Cleric with nature domain.
I struggle with the first suggestion how the rules actually allow a assassin or thief to enter the hut. It specifically says you cannot extend through or cast through the dome, so I would assume you can't simply dimension door inside. The only spell I see as effective is dispel magic or a effect that isn't an object, nor magical like a dragon's breath or a charming gaze.
The second suggestion I will definately take on for future reference, I feel if I would introduce this kind of enemies right now it will become the main 'thing' instead of progressing through the story. But very good idea nonetheless!
The problem of the five minute workday is something D&D has struggled with since first edition; if it had an easy solution it would already be solved. In general you either need unnatural adventure flow, severe restrictions on when a long rest is possible, or game system changes to reduce the relevance of long rests. Though undoing the changes to Leomund's Tiny Hut in 5th edition would be a good start (in previous editions, all it stopped was weather, monsters could just walk in and eat you).
It is of course possible to beat on PCs in a hut -- it's an immobile object that is guaranteed to contain something of value (since it ends if the caster leaves), so if a monster scout finds one it's reasonable to round up a spellcaster with Dispel Magic and a brute squad and come whack it.
Thanks for introducing this terminlogy of the five minute workday, I didn't hear it before and it makes more clear what I'm struggling with (and it helps in finding more tips on it).
I'm not going to give up trying to lure them out though, meanwhile your thoughts and observations have sparked some interesting idea's so great thanks for that. I'm going to:
- Have the random encounters attack Harshnag (he cannot sleep inside the hut due to his size, and is their ticket towards the temple they are bound to protect him) Hostile Frost Giant/Adult Young dragon - I am going to modify some spell lists for creatures to have Dispel Magic as a spell within the random encounters I created for them Band of ravaging orcs + add a spellcaster / Band of Barbarians + add a spellcaster/young dragon wyrmling - I came up with the Avalanche idea before reading it in Tasha's and will probably use one to cover the hut in a 30 feet layer of snow (hihi) - The other random encounters can wait outside the hut until they show themselves, or they go back to get some back-up to open the dome: a spellcaster with dispel magic or a trained dragon wyrmling that can breathe through the hut
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So I'm running a campaign of storm king's thunder and the party is nog 4 players of level 7, traveling alongside Harshnag a powerful sidekick as well.
The party is playing the encounters very strategicly and are well aligned amongst eachother, meaning that most deadly encounters are bested without any of them falling unconscious. So I have been boosting encounters with nice extra's, reinforcements and by adding in some monsters from the ice wind dale sourcebook.
Now they are traveling towards the Eye of the Allfather I would like to reintroduce the Crag Cats as I think the location is very well suited for it. But looking at the encounter builder I'm going to need a pack of them to make this even remotely interesting. But I'd rather, and also, would like to give them a real pack advantage in the snow to make things interesting.
So what I was thinking is making the following modifications:
- 1 Pack leader Crag Cat (double hp, multiattack)
- All Crag cats gain the "Pack tactics feat"
Do you think this is still well balanced? I was thinking to make the pack 10-12 big.
If not I would like to hear your tips how to modify stat blocks :)
Kr,
Rob.
Balanced: probably
Fun: possibly
If you have too many monsters, it can makes fights drag on forever (like longer than BBEG fights, IME), and not be super fun. But you do you, you may have lots of fun.
I am an average mathematics enjoyer.
>Extended Signature<
Balancing "encounters" can be more helpful than balancing statblocks. Expect every combat to swing too far in one direction or the other and have a contingency plan to correct for it.
For example, if the party encounters a pack of zombies, there might be a hunting party already after them, which can share the work if the party starts to falter. Or, the zombie horde might be empowered by dark energy that keeps resurrecting them unless they are killed with radiant damage. The fight then becomes "find the power source", rather than a murderfest.
If the Crag Cats are too weak, toss in some environmental hazards.
12 is nominally deadly without any changes, with pack tactics I'd probably reduce that to 9 and count a leader as two monsters (so 7 plus a leader), but to make it a more interesting fight I'd be temped to have the attack occur during bad weather (disadvantage on perception); by level 7 you probably have someone with a passive perception of 17 or so, which makes life hard on critters with +7 stealth, but reducing that passive perception to 12 makes it a lot better...
10-12 is a bit much, not in terms of difficuly but just in terms of time, even if split them into groups for initiative, you still have all the rolls and all the saves when someone hits them with aoe.
If your players like strategy you might look at throwing a frost giant Everlasting One at them, along with some trolls. This will bring in some more giant lore that Harshnag can fill the party in on after the fight. Maybe look at the rules for an avalanche incase they do something to set one off.
A new enemy is going to be a lot more interesting that just a lot of the same ones they have faced from before. A frost giant mutated from eating trolls, (send to them by a troll god) because it wanted to gain more power fits in perfectly to the story, and the specific location too.
Typically crag cats are like other IRL big cats and hunt alone, or maybe as a pair when they have offspring to feed. I would only do an encounter with so many creatures if those creatures were known for running in mobs or swarms like kobolds or spiders. I try to think about the ecology and behavior of the stuff I'm throwing at the party - I think it goes a long way to make them seem like more than just stat blocks.
Personally, I'd take your Pack leader cat idea, make 2 of them and crank them up to CR 5 or so: double the HP, AC 15, claw/bite multiattack, add 2 to trained skills, attack, and pounce DC (or just add 1 - I think that's what a CR5 would actually have - but it sounds like your party might need a bit more of a challenge). Then have them act like real cats: hide in a high position and ambush with a pounce. The terrain, weather, and other aspects of the environment should all be advantageous to them - this is their domain. You could throw in 2-3 as-written crag cats, scale their size down to medium/small and describe them as cubs. If it's not just a murderhobo kind of game, the players might feel a little conflicted about killing animals just trying to feed their young.
You can also make things harder by increasing encounters per day rather than making encounters harder. Things can get pretty interesting when spells and abilities are running out, and an encounter that would have been a breeze is now much more challenging.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Make the narrative do some of the work - if they are attempting to navigate in the mountains, have the cats ambush and knock/drag one of them down the slope away from the others. Perhaps have them stalking the party, and have them be very adept stalkers, so have the party keep catching glimpses of movement behind them but never really see what it was. Perhaps have the cats attempt to herd the party to a killing ground, where others from the pack can pounce from above.
If the party has a small character, such as a dwarf or a gnome, then the cats may have a goal to grab them and drag them off into the night, turning it from a basic fight into a pursuit, having to fight through the other cats to get the gnome back. The other cats might stay to distract, and have their actions readied to dodge and dart back, giving the pack leader time to drag their prey away. This might have them discover a cave, or find some druid who is part of the pack in a cave, or some other interesting result!
I also like the idea of scatterbraind's for increasing encounters. Perhaps make a different difficult encounter which will drain their spells, then have the cats come in the night, interrupting the long rest, to try and drag off someone who's wounded. Try to build the wound into the narrative of the initial fight, meaning that player ends up with bloodsoaked clothes or something, even if the wound ends up being healed, then have the cats target them as small/weak/injured.
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
Thanks for all the good options! I really like the idea to buff them furter, reduce the numbers and to add some terrain advantages to pounce a character of the winding path up the snowy mountain.
I'd also like to implement the increase of encounters per day, but I struggle with that in this campaign because Storm King's Thunder requires so much travel, and they always use Leomund's Tiny hut to protect themselves. Now I know there are also ways to 'sabotage' those rests but all that I've read so far are....unlikely and not very realistic to the story or the environment. The other option of making multiple encounters, combat or otherwise, for each day to a point it drains their spells is just.....dragging the game along to long. BUT I do want them to feel that this journey is a challenge - I dislike jumping from location to location with just a narrative.
If you have any additional tips on that please let me know.
Note: I am not even slightly familiar with the module or your party, remember that when considering my suggestions.
A very skilled assassin is being sent after them/a thief spots them and wants their goods/something like that. It doesn't really matter, the point is that something finds a way into their Hut. It can also be a band of skilled thieves so that the party doesn't get a numeric advantage. That someone or something should be especially dangerous in close quarters. The best way to do it is control spells, probably. Maybe it's something else. The point is, you want your players to feel like they should drop the spell, else they might lose. Why won't they drop the spell? The thief's greatest friend, or friends, someone who would make great use of open spaces - maybe a group of archers - is waiting outside. The characters need to notice the threat outside, therefore forcing them to make a choice - in or out? Eventually, you don't want to actually kill the players, but it should be hard enough.
Another option: Four enemies that are perfect each at taking out one of your players. Do you have a druid with many concentration spells? Have a monk breaking their concentration constantly. A cleric with great healing spells? Even a spell like Chill Touch can negate all of it, and it's just a cantrip. A paladin with 27 AC? Take whatever save they're worst at and have an enemy utilize spells that require that save (Yes, they have that aura, but assuming they have low int, which is likely for a paladin, using Mind Sliver which, again, is just a cantrip, will help against that). A barbarian that hits for 40 dmg every second turn but has low wisdom? A spell like Slow might help. I could go on but I believe you're getting the point.
Varielky
Hi FireCat,
Thanks for your reply, just for you info my party consists out of a Divination Wizard, A school of creation Bard, a Hunter using the revised Hunter conclave and a Cleric with nature domain.
I struggle with the first suggestion how the rules actually allow a assassin or thief to enter the hut. It specifically says you cannot extend through or cast through the dome, so I would assume you can't simply dimension door inside. The only spell I see as effective is dispel magic or a effect that isn't an object, nor magical like a dragon's breath or a charming gaze.
The second suggestion I will definately take on for future reference, I feel if I would introduce this kind of enemies right now it will become the main 'thing' instead of progressing through the story. But very good idea nonetheless!
Thanks,
Rob.
The problem of the five minute workday is something D&D has struggled with since first edition; if it had an easy solution it would already be solved. In general you either need unnatural adventure flow, severe restrictions on when a long rest is possible, or game system changes to reduce the relevance of long rests. Though undoing the changes to Leomund's Tiny Hut in 5th edition would be a good start (in previous editions, all it stopped was weather, monsters could just walk in and eat you).
It is of course possible to beat on PCs in a hut -- it's an immobile object that is guaranteed to contain something of value (since it ends if the caster leaves), so if a monster scout finds one it's reasonable to round up a spellcaster with Dispel Magic and a brute squad and come whack it.
Thanks for introducing this terminlogy of the five minute workday, I didn't hear it before and it makes more clear what I'm struggling with (and it helps in finding more tips on it).
I'm not going to give up trying to lure them out though, meanwhile your thoughts and observations have sparked some interesting idea's so great thanks for that. I'm going to:
- Have the random encounters attack Harshnag (he cannot sleep inside the hut due to his size, and is their ticket towards the temple they are bound to protect him)
Hostile Frost Giant/Adult Young dragon
- I am going to modify some spell lists for creatures to have Dispel Magic as a spell within the random encounters I created for them
Band of ravaging orcs + add a spellcaster / Band of Barbarians + add a spellcaster/young dragon wyrmling
- I came up with the Avalanche idea before reading it in Tasha's and will probably use one to cover the hut in a 30 feet layer of snow (hihi)
- The other random encounters can wait outside the hut until they show themselves, or they go back to get some back-up to open the dome: a spellcaster with dispel magic or a trained dragon wyrmling that can breathe through the hut