Do you all think the Unerring Eye feature (see below) would indicate that a polymorphed creature is in a different form? I am assuming that shapechangers refers to a creature's tag, but I am hard pressed to make an argument that polymorph isn't "designed to deceive the senses".
Unerring Eye: Beginning at 13th level, your senses are almost impossible to foil. As an action, you sense the presence of illusions, shapechangers not in their original form, and other magic designed to deceive the senses within 30 feet of you, provided you aren’t blinded or deafened. You sense that an effect is attempting to trick you, but you gain no insight into what is hidden or into its true nature.
I think I have to resign myself to the fact that any hag subterfuge will likely be short lived, but wanted to get other opinions.
Polymorph isn't designed to trick the senses - it's to literally turn one thing into another. Would the unerring eye person see caterpilalrs floating around instead of butterflies?
I would agree that a polymorphed creature is transformed into a new creature, not the same creature in a different shape or disguised in some way.
A deception might be from the school of illusion. Changing lead into gold might be a good example of transmutation at work.
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Unerring eye says it detects any effect that would trick your sense which implies only illusions but it also explicitly includes shape changers which which I find hard to distinguish from spells like alter self and polymorph because the category of shape changers includes the near identical effects of werewolves and changelings. Now as per the ability you really don't need to say anything beyond "something feels off to you" or "they seem dodgey". If you want to sneak something past that just use deceptions where they expect that result from a high insight or arcana check. Such has having the hag pretend to be a snake oil salesman, they would see the product is fake and assume that's the deception when actually its a hag.
I would agree that a polymorphed creature is transformed into a new creature, not the same creature in a different shape or disguised in some way.
A deception might be from the school of illusion. Changing lead into gold might be a good example of transmutation at work.
What the heck is "the same creature in a different shape" though? That sounds like transmutation as well.
A polymorphed creature "retains its alignment and personality." What does that mean exactly and how is that different from a shapechanger in behavioral terms? I'd argue that a bear with the "personality" of a bard would be noticeably off to an archetype defined by its insights.
A shapechanger is a creature with the shapechanger tag. It is a special game term and has impacts as such - polymorph doesn't work on shapechangers so the spell specifically details that the two are different.
Unerring Eye has no affect on polymorphed creatures, at least not those changed by the spell anyway.
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I'm with Pantagruel666, i'd consider any polymorph effects, illusion or magic that deceive the senses for the purpose of Unerring Eye sense.
The Shapechanger trait specifically refer to polymorph
Shapechanger: The wererat can use its action to polymorph into a rat-humanoid hybrid or into a Giant Rat, or back into its true form, which is Humanoid. Its Statistics, other than its size, are the same in each form. Any Equipment it is wearing or carrying isn't transformed. It reverts to its true form if it dies.
Polymorph isn't designed to trick the senses - it's to literally turn one thing into another. Would the unerring eye person see caterpilalrs floating around instead of butterflies?
Do butterflies turn back into caterpillars once they drop to 0HP?
A shapechanger is a creature with the shapechanger tag. It is a special game term and has impacts as such - polymorph doesn't work on shapechangers so the spell specifically details that the two are different.
I'm not disputing that, I'm proposing that polymorph may fall into the "other magic designed to deceive the senses" clause. Firstly, because it implies that shapeshifting is magic designed to deceive the senses which opens up transmutation effects, and secondly because polymorphed creatures still contain aspects of the base creature, so the appearance they put on is deceiving in the same way shapeshifting is (albeit to a lesser degree).
Update: It turned out to be somewhat moot, as another member of the party decided to cast True Seeing, which gave the character True Sight, which blatantly spells out that a polymorphed creature's true form will be revealed (red bolding added by me).
Truesight
A monster with truesight can, out to a specific range, see in normal and magical darkness, see invisible creatures and objects, automatically detect visual illusions and succeed on saving throws against them, and perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic. Furthermore, the monster can see into the Ethereal Plane within the same range.
Regardless, I am firmly in the camp that a polymorphed/shape-changed creature meets the criteria for magic designed to deceive the senses.
Ooh, yeah .... True sight is much nastier than unerring eye. Though I believe that amulet of proof against detection and non detection blocks the true sight spell but not other sources of true sight. Its an option if it becomes known the party often uses such spells or if you have a powerful spell caster who frequently hides their appearance and location.
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Do you all think the Unerring Eye feature (see below) would indicate that a polymorphed creature is in a different form? I am assuming that shapechangers refers to a creature's tag, but I am hard pressed to make an argument that polymorph isn't "designed to deceive the senses".
Unerring Eye: Beginning at 13th level, your senses are almost impossible to foil. As an action, you sense the presence of illusions, shapechangers not in their original form, and other magic designed to deceive the senses within 30 feet of you, provided you aren’t blinded or deafened. You sense that an effect is attempting to trick you, but you gain no insight into what is hidden or into its true nature.
I think I have to resign myself to the fact that any hag subterfuge will likely be short lived, but wanted to get other opinions.
Thanks,
Matt
Polymorph isn't designed to trick the senses - it's to literally turn one thing into another. Would the unerring eye person see caterpilalrs floating around instead of butterflies?
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I would classify creatures using polymorph effects (including polymorph and druid Wild Shape) as shapechangers not in their original form.
Polymorphed creatures are an unusual category- however, there are no hidden rules in 5e, and polymorph does not make creatures into shapechangers.
I would agree that a polymorphed creature is transformed into a new creature, not the same creature in a different shape or disguised in some way.
A deception might be from the school of illusion. Changing lead into gold might be a good example of transmutation at work.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Unerring eye says it detects any effect that would trick your sense which implies only illusions but it also explicitly includes shape changers which which I find hard to distinguish from spells like alter self and polymorph because the category of shape changers includes the near identical effects of werewolves and changelings. Now as per the ability you really don't need to say anything beyond "something feels off to you" or "they seem dodgey". If you want to sneak something past that just use deceptions where they expect that result from a high insight or arcana check. Such has having the hag pretend to be a snake oil salesman, they would see the product is fake and assume that's the deception when actually its a hag.
What the heck is "the same creature in a different shape" though? That sounds like transmutation as well.
A polymorphed creature "retains its alignment and personality." What does that mean exactly and how is that different from a shapechanger in behavioral terms? I'd argue that a bear with the "personality" of a bard would be noticeably off to an archetype defined by its insights.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
A shapechanger is a creature with the shapechanger tag. It is a special game term and has impacts as such - polymorph doesn't work on shapechangers so the spell specifically details that the two are different.
Unerring Eye has no affect on polymorphed creatures, at least not those changed by the spell anyway.
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I'm with Pantagruel666, i'd consider any polymorph effects, illusion or magic that deceive the senses for the purpose of Unerring Eye sense.
The Shapechanger trait specifically refer to polymorph
Do butterflies turn back into caterpillars once they drop to 0HP?
I'm not disputing that, I'm proposing that polymorph may fall into the "other magic designed to deceive the senses" clause. Firstly, because it implies that shapeshifting is magic designed to deceive the senses which opens up transmutation effects, and secondly because polymorphed creatures still contain aspects of the base creature, so the appearance they put on is deceiving in the same way shapeshifting is (albeit to a lesser degree).
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Are you kidding? The game is filled with hidden rules, that's why there's so many disputes about what rules mean.
Update: It turned out to be somewhat moot, as another member of the party decided to cast True Seeing, which gave the character True Sight, which blatantly spells out that a polymorphed creature's true form will be revealed (red bolding added by me).
Truesight
A monster with truesight can, out to a specific range, see in normal and magical darkness, see invisible creatures and objects, automatically detect visual illusions and succeed on saving throws against them, and perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic. Furthermore, the monster can see into the Ethereal Plane within the same range.
Regardless, I am firmly in the camp that a polymorphed/shape-changed creature meets the criteria for magic designed to deceive the senses.
Ooh, yeah ....
True sight is much nastier than unerring eye. Though I believe that amulet of proof against detection and non detection blocks the true sight spell but not other sources of true sight. Its an option if it becomes known the party often uses such spells or if you have a powerful spell caster who frequently hides their appearance and location.