Won’t the wizard just drop a fireball and take out all of the zombies and skeletons in one go? Not to mention a good note from the sword wraiths and the necromancer. Then, the next round, drop another fireball and finish the job.
If she does that, the sword wraiths will kill her. She'll have to focus her attacks on them, and continue attacking the high-threat targets.
Focusing on the sword wraiths does not reduce their damage. Just cast Shield and tank them.
If she focuses on them, they die quickly. She has low hit points, and can't tank the damage, period. If they remain for more then 2-3 rounds, she's dead.
Drop the fireball right on top of herself, then. She’s an evoker, sculpt spell. she won’t feel a thing. I may be overestimating fireball, but I find it really solves most problems in life.
How many healing potions does the party have at their disposal? Potions could keep them up for a round or two extra which can make a difference in a challenging encounter.
I haven't found these to be super useful in combat. The action economy of potions is super punishing, and if everyone drinks one it's pretty much a free round for Team Monster. If they do more damage in that round than the potions healed, you just wasted a bunch of items and are worse off for it. It's very often more efficient to use that action to stop incoming damage instead, whether through positioning or buffing/debuffing or incapacitating your foes.
Potions are best out of combat, especially between fights in cases when you can't take a short rest.
I agree that the solution to this encounter is a couple of fireballs. If it draws attention to the wizard, all the better. The person who has already expended their best resources is the one you can most afford to do without. Assuming the wraiths will turn attention elsewhere once the wizard is unconscious, it's exactly what I would want them to do if I were the party.
This is why I house rule drinking a potion is a bonus action not an action. It makes sense from a logical perspective as well.
This is why I house rule drinking a potion is a bonus action not an action. It makes sense from a logical perspective as well.
Or as a use object action. In general using your action for a heal is only useful if it brings someone up from being down (because you're trading one action of yours for one action of theirs) or if it's very large.
You've made an encounter that is half cake-walk, half deadly. Ignore 'Deadly' ratings for encounters, normally 'Deadly' means 'Easy' for a fully rested party, but in this case I think you've got trouble.
1) Action economy: The sword wraiths have only one attack per turn, and their maximum damage is 14 non-crit. The party can afford to ignore them.
2) The skeletons and zombies are kinda irrelevant
3) The Rogue and the Evocation Wizard can ranged-duel the Necromancer, which is way stronger than your wizard (double the spellcasting level!).
If your Necro casts Blight at 5th level on turn 1 of the combat, they deal 36 damage on a failed save. Do that twice on the wizard and if they fail the save twice the wizard is down. If the Necro survives to turn 3, Circle of Death and it's all over for the party. The necro has a measly 66 hit points, but unless they all get to barrage with spells or attacks, they probably won't take it out until turn 3.
The necro alone is a CR9 creature against just 3 x level 6 characters. If the necro wins initiative, I'd expect a TPK. If he loses initiatve, I expect they'll take him out in the 2nd turn and mop up adds thereafter.
The main danger for the party is if they don't realise that their enemy has access to 6th level spells.
They've learnt to assume every boss they fight in my campaign is at least 5 levels higher then them.
Then there is no way that they would focus the Sword Wraiths.
You see to disagree with most people who've responded indicating what the players ought to do, or what the monsters will do, so I think you already believe that the characters can handle this well enough.
As another poster mentions, if the wizard focuses on the Sword Wraiths 2-3 turns (I would say even for 1 turn) then the Necromancer will take down at least one character on turn 2, if they haven't already on turn 1. My math above is slightly wrong, because the average damage from a 5th level Blight is 40 points of damage, with a damage range of 9 to 88. An average wizard with +2 CON has 35 hit points at level 6, so that's unconscious on turn 1 on a failed save, possibly before she gets to take any action at all. You mention elsewhere that the wizard has low hit points. If they don't have a Counterspell ready for that first spell, then they're simply not going to survive 1-2 turns of the Necromancer's damage output, neither of the other characters can get her back up with Healing Word, and so essentially it's then an untouched 12th level spellcaster (Unless the Rogue has Steady Aim optional ability, as there's no other way to sneak attack) Necromancer still packing a level 6 spell slot against a Rogue and a Fighter, neither of whom can reach it in melee because of the zombies and skeletons who basically serve as body blockers.
What do you think Admiral Akbar?
"Our cruisers can't repel firepower of that magnitude!"
The characters can only win this scenario if the Necromancer chooses not to employ its abilities properly, chooses to stand in the open instead of casting a spell then moving into cover, and if the PCs all choose to focus attacks on it from the beginning.
UPDATE: I am so, so, sorry but I just checked my notes and realized that the party got enough XP last session to level up to level 7 :| The rogue will be taking half to no damage from all the necro's spells, the fighter has a load of new manuevers, and the wizard can just trap the necro in a wall of fire. I think they can handle this now... The question is, do I need to make it tougher now? Once again, sorry for wasting anyone's time :(
If anything you do as DM threatens the lives of your players and not just their PCs, you’re taking things a bit too seriously..
XD LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Maybe should change the title...
People conflate player and character all the time, it’s a common “problem.”
That’s why people get so butt hurt if a PC uses a skill against another PC. Folks don’t remember to distinguish the difference between what a character does from a player actually being a wangrod. (If your Rogue lies, cheats, and steals, that because it’s their nature. So if they attempt to sneak off using stealth, or pocket a little extra bling using sleight of hand, and attempt to lie about it using deception, that’s because Rogue. That doesn’t mean the player is a wangrod for legitimately acting in character. The player is being upfront and honest about what’s going on. After all, they had to declare the intentions, and make the ability checks if/when the DM calls for them. The player is a wangrod if they sail right past “a little extra bling” and start trying to pocket everything Ike a Kender. (That’s why Kender players are frequently wangrods, they chose that race.)
The question is, do I need to make it tougher now? Once again, sorry for wasting anyone's time :(
My general approach to encounter difficulty is to make them all “deadly” and just do 2-4 of them per “adventuring day” instead of 6-8. (If it turns out I made it too tough andI need to tone the combat down after it has started, I can always hotfix it. By that I mean I could chop off some HP or not use all of the monsters’ abilities to full effect.)
The question is, do I need to make it tougher now? Once again, sorry for wasting anyone's time :(
My general approach to encounter difficulty is to make them all “deadly” and just do 2-4 of them per “adventuring day” instead of 6-8. (If it turns out I made it too tough andI need to tone the combat down after it has started, I can always hotfix it. By that I mean I could chop off some HP or not use all of the monsters’ abilities to full effect.)
That’s typically what I do to, but the party just got a long rest, and this is the only encounter they will on this day, so I’m looking to make a Deadly encounter for full-strength characters. I’m playing all the monsters smart and they have terrain advantages, but will it be enough?
We had to cancel last night cause someone couldn’t make it, but we’re doing it tonight. I just checked my notes and realized that they just leveled to 7, so their survival chances have gone up considerably. I’m wondering if I will have to make the fight tougher now.
For creature hit points do you use the average or roll them bones for each type? I ask because maybe you just need to max the HP in this case. Another case maybe look at some features that have fire or type of resistance to up the challenge.
For creature hit points do you use the average or roll them bones for each type? I ask because maybe you just need to max the HP in this case. Another case maybe look at some features that have fire or type of resistance to up the challenge.
I usually use average hit points. I’ll definitely max out the necro’s , and probably let him cast a 1st level false life as a bonus action. Maybe give him misty step for better maneuvering.
If anything you do as DM threatens the lives of your players and not just their PCs, you’re taking things a bit too seriously..
XD LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Maybe should change the title...
People conflate player and character all the time, it’s a common “problem.”
That’s why people get so butt hurt if a PC uses a skill against another PC. Folks don’t remember to distinguish the difference between what a character does from a player actually being a wangrod. (If your Rogue lies, cheats, and steals, that because it’s their nature. So if they attempt to sneak off using stealth, or pocket a little extra bling using sleight of hand, and attempt to lie about it using deception, that’s because Rogue. That doesn’t mean the player is a wangrod for legitimately acting in character. The player is being upfront and honest about what’s going on. After all, they had to declare the intentions, and make the ability checks if/when the DM calls for them. The player is a wangrod if they sail right past “a little extra bling” and start trying to pocket everything Ike a Kender. (That’s why Kender players are frequently wangrods, they chose that race.)
What you describe is literally the definition of being a wangrod. "But I designed a toxic character, so it's ok for me to be toxic" is the Wangrod's battlecry. Stealing things from another PC would be considered toxic behaviour at the table by most. There may be some reasons that you don't take into account:
The stealing player more or less forces that victim PC's controller to either pretend to not know, which makes them feel like a chump, or go out of character and attack them. Nobody likes to feel that they're being taken advantage of.
The Wangrod you descibre also forces the group, if they discover the character stealing - stealing anything at all - to kick the thieving PC from the group and thereby the campaign. And they have to, don't they, because "it's what my character would do." Nobody tolerates someone who backstabs them. The Wangrod rarely thinks of this before they go down their thievery route. And then you have players effectively killing off someone's character by a group decision to excommunicate them. The players are often reluctant to do that, as it will most likely cause the Wangrod player to get upset and leave the group.
The character is no longer trustworthy in any case. This is problematic, because the player is also untrustworthy. If you choose to play a character that sabotages/screws over other characters, then the player and the character are not exclusively separate. The player makes the character's decisions. It's silly to pretend that's not the case.
If a player doesn't want to play cooperatively with the group, they are best off having a chat to the DM and finding a different type of game. D&D is a social game built around cooperation.
Here's the fight report, for BKThomson. The PCs leveled up, and we've just started the fight (we're taking a quick snack break. Leveling up is hard work.) The wizard and rogue are in melee with the sword wraiths, while the fighter has broken through them and is chopping up zombies in an effort to make it to the necro. The necro just cast cloudkill on the wizard and rogue, and the rogue is at 28 hit points (out of 52. She's taken 2 wacks from the wraiths and failed her save on cloudkill). The wizard has taken slight damage from the cloudkill, and the fighter is pretty good on hit points.
Hm. That's a fail at focus firing anything (though a usually unrecognized benefit of vision blockers -- sculpt spells only works on targets you can see, so if you're embedded in cloudkill and can't see anything, you can't use it. Though I'd say you can still exclude yourself, and fireballing a level 7 rogue is NBD).
Hm. That's a fail at focus firing anything (though a usually unrecognized benefit of vision blockers -- sculpt spells only works on targets you can see, so if you're embedded in cloudkill and can't see anything, you can't use it. Though I'd say you can still exclude yourself, and fireballing a level 7 rogue is NBD).
I think the rogue may mind getting fireballed though.
So, they survived. The fighter went down but made his death saves, and everyone ended on singel-digit hit points. The necro really put a hurt on everyone, but the swraiths went down fairly quickly. The fighter failed miserably in his attempt to charge the necro, he just got taken out by vampriric touch and blight. The rogue kept finding crazy ways to get advantage (adn Sneak Attack), and that's what turned the fight. And the wizard rolling really good on fireball (the lowest damage she did was 37).
Aaaaaaand then the dying necro sent a telepathic message to the CR 30 BBEG (Ashardalon), who turned up and threw the players into the Underdark. Mwahahahahaha!
Drop the fireball right on top of herself, then. She’s an evoker, sculpt spell. she won’t feel a thing.
I may be overestimating fireball, but I find it really solves most problems in life.
This is why I house rule drinking a potion is a bonus action not an action. It makes sense from a logical perspective as well.
Ahhhh that’s why I have to find a new group of players every few months :).
Or as a use object action. In general using your action for a heal is only useful if it brings someone up from being down (because you're trading one action of yours for one action of theirs) or if it's very large.
Then there is no way that they would focus the Sword Wraiths.
You see to disagree with most people who've responded indicating what the players ought to do, or what the monsters will do, so I think you already believe that the characters can handle this well enough.
As another poster mentions, if the wizard focuses on the Sword Wraiths 2-3 turns (I would say even for 1 turn) then the Necromancer will take down at least one character on turn 2, if they haven't already on turn 1. My math above is slightly wrong, because the average damage from a 5th level Blight is 40 points of damage, with a damage range of 9 to 88. An average wizard with +2 CON has 35 hit points at level 6, so that's unconscious on turn 1 on a failed save, possibly before she gets to take any action at all. You mention elsewhere that the wizard has low hit points. If they don't have a Counterspell ready for that first spell, then they're simply not going to survive 1-2 turns of the Necromancer's damage output, neither of the other characters can get her back up with Healing Word, and so essentially it's then an untouched 12th level spellcaster (Unless the Rogue has Steady Aim optional ability, as there's no other way to sneak attack) Necromancer still packing a level 6 spell slot against a Rogue and a Fighter, neither of whom can reach it in melee because of the zombies and skeletons who basically serve as body blockers.
What do you think Admiral Akbar?
"Our cruisers can't repel firepower of that magnitude!"
The characters can only win this scenario if the Necromancer chooses not to employ its abilities properly, chooses to stand in the open instead of casting a spell then moving into cover, and if the PCs all choose to focus attacks on it from the beginning.
XD LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Maybe should change the title...
I'm the Valar (leader and creator) of The Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit/Anything Tolkien Cult!
Member of the Cult of Cats, High Elf of the Elven Guild, and Sauce Priest & Sauce Smith of the Supreme Court of Sauce.
If you want some casual roleplay/adventures in Middle Earth, check out The Wild's Edge Tavern, a LotR/Middle Earth tavern!
JOIN TIAMAT'S CONGA LINE!
Extended Sig
UPDATE: I am so, so, sorry but I just checked my notes and realized that the party got enough XP last session to level up to level 7 :| The rogue will be taking half to no damage from all the necro's spells, the fighter has a load of new manuevers, and the wizard can just trap the necro in a wall of fire. I think they can handle this now... The question is, do I need to make it tougher now? Once again, sorry for wasting anyone's time :(
I'm the Valar (leader and creator) of The Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit/Anything Tolkien Cult!
Member of the Cult of Cats, High Elf of the Elven Guild, and Sauce Priest & Sauce Smith of the Supreme Court of Sauce.
If you want some casual roleplay/adventures in Middle Earth, check out The Wild's Edge Tavern, a LotR/Middle Earth tavern!
JOIN TIAMAT'S CONGA LINE!
Extended Sig
People conflate player and character all the time, it’s a common “problem.”
That’s why people get so butt hurt if a PC uses a skill against another PC. Folks don’t remember to distinguish the difference between what a character does from a player actually being a wangrod. (If your Rogue lies, cheats, and steals, that because it’s their nature. So if they attempt to sneak off using stealth, or pocket a little extra bling using sleight of hand, and attempt to lie about it using deception, that’s because Rogue. That doesn’t mean the player is a wangrod for legitimately acting in character. The player is being upfront and honest about what’s going on. After all, they had to declare the intentions, and make the ability checks if/when the DM calls for them. The player is a wangrod if they sail right past “a little extra bling” and start trying to pocket everything Ike a Kender. (That’s why Kender players are frequently wangrods, they chose that race.)
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
My general approach to encounter difficulty is to make them all “deadly” and just do 2-4 of them per “adventuring day” instead of 6-8. (If it turns out I made it too tough andI need to tone the combat down after it has started, I can always hotfix it. By that I mean I could chop off some HP or not use all of the monsters’ abilities to full effect.)
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
That’s typically what I do to, but the party just got a long rest, and this is the only encounter they will on this day, so I’m looking to make a Deadly encounter for full-strength characters. I’m playing all the monsters smart and they have terrain advantages, but will it be enough?
I'm the Valar (leader and creator) of The Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit/Anything Tolkien Cult!
Member of the Cult of Cats, High Elf of the Elven Guild, and Sauce Priest & Sauce Smith of the Supreme Court of Sauce.
If you want some casual roleplay/adventures in Middle Earth, check out The Wild's Edge Tavern, a LotR/Middle Earth tavern!
JOIN TIAMAT'S CONGA LINE!
Extended Sig
So are are they dead? (ambiguity on purpose.)
We had to cancel last night cause someone couldn’t make it, but we’re doing it tonight. I just checked my notes and realized that they just leveled to 7, so their survival chances have gone up considerably. I’m wondering if I will have to make the fight tougher now.
I'm the Valar (leader and creator) of The Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit/Anything Tolkien Cult!
Member of the Cult of Cats, High Elf of the Elven Guild, and Sauce Priest & Sauce Smith of the Supreme Court of Sauce.
If you want some casual roleplay/adventures in Middle Earth, check out The Wild's Edge Tavern, a LotR/Middle Earth tavern!
JOIN TIAMAT'S CONGA LINE!
Extended Sig
For creature hit points do you use the average or roll them bones for each type? I ask because maybe you just need to max the HP in this case. Another case maybe look at some features that have fire or type of resistance to up the challenge.
I usually use average hit points. I’ll definitely max out the necro’s , and probably let him cast a 1st level false life as a bonus action. Maybe give him misty step for better maneuvering.
I'm the Valar (leader and creator) of The Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit/Anything Tolkien Cult!
Member of the Cult of Cats, High Elf of the Elven Guild, and Sauce Priest & Sauce Smith of the Supreme Court of Sauce.
If you want some casual roleplay/adventures in Middle Earth, check out The Wild's Edge Tavern, a LotR/Middle Earth tavern!
JOIN TIAMAT'S CONGA LINE!
Extended Sig
What you describe is literally the definition of being a wangrod. "But I designed a toxic character, so it's ok for me to be toxic" is the Wangrod's battlecry. Stealing things from another PC would be considered toxic behaviour at the table by most. There may be some reasons that you don't take into account:
If a player doesn't want to play cooperatively with the group, they are best off having a chat to the DM and finding a different type of game. D&D is a social game built around cooperation.
I had to look up Wangrod...Thanks, Matt Colville!
Here's the fight report, for BKThomson. The PCs leveled up, and we've just started the fight (we're taking a quick snack break. Leveling up is hard work.) The wizard and rogue are in melee with the sword wraiths, while the fighter has broken through them and is chopping up zombies in an effort to make it to the necro. The necro just cast cloudkill on the wizard and rogue, and the rogue is at 28 hit points (out of 52. She's taken 2 wacks from the wraiths and failed her save on cloudkill). The wizard has taken slight damage from the cloudkill, and the fighter is pretty good on hit points.
I'm the Valar (leader and creator) of The Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit/Anything Tolkien Cult!
Member of the Cult of Cats, High Elf of the Elven Guild, and Sauce Priest & Sauce Smith of the Supreme Court of Sauce.
If you want some casual roleplay/adventures in Middle Earth, check out The Wild's Edge Tavern, a LotR/Middle Earth tavern!
JOIN TIAMAT'S CONGA LINE!
Extended Sig
Hm. That's a fail at focus firing anything (though a usually unrecognized benefit of vision blockers -- sculpt spells only works on targets you can see, so if you're embedded in cloudkill and can't see anything, you can't use it. Though I'd say you can still exclude yourself, and fireballing a level 7 rogue is NBD).
I think the rogue may mind getting fireballed though.
So, they survived. The fighter went down but made his death saves, and everyone ended on singel-digit hit points. The necro really put a hurt on everyone, but the swraiths went down fairly quickly. The fighter failed miserably in his attempt to charge the necro, he just got taken out by vampriric touch and blight. The rogue kept finding crazy ways to get advantage (adn Sneak Attack), and that's what turned the fight. And the wizard rolling really good on fireball (the lowest damage she did was 37).
Aaaaaaand then the dying necro sent a telepathic message to the CR 30 BBEG (Ashardalon), who turned up and threw the players into the Underdark. Mwahahahahaha!
I'm the Valar (leader and creator) of The Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit/Anything Tolkien Cult!
Member of the Cult of Cats, High Elf of the Elven Guild, and Sauce Priest & Sauce Smith of the Supreme Court of Sauce.
If you want some casual roleplay/adventures in Middle Earth, check out The Wild's Edge Tavern, a LotR/Middle Earth tavern!
JOIN TIAMAT'S CONGA LINE!
Extended Sig