So I've been playing since about 1983ish... Dm'ing since about 1989... in all those years I've never really had a "Problem Player" We've all seen the meme... dude with the serious expression on Splash Mountain... "The guy trying to Win at DnD"... Well I have one of those. Every session he tries to take center stage, be the "Hero" pouts if he doesn't get the killing shot in on anything. His character has died a few times... and a couple players have completely derailed the campaign to bring him back. His actions have almost caused party wipes a dozen times, and he's caused one player to "retire" their character and not play anymore. The guy has zero original thought... all of his characters have been modeled after either anime characters or Wish versions of the characters on Critical Role.
Part of me wants to have him walk into a room and come face to face with a death Knight, or something equally terrifying, but I know that won't do a damned thing. we've tried every approach; talking to him, had his paladin stripped of their powers, everything, and it works for about a session or two, but then he's back to his usual antics.
So my question... How do you all handle problem players? Short of kicking him from the game.
Is it in person or online? Do you know the person in real life? Is he mentally insane and knows where you live?
He's causing players to quit, that means you have a negative player who will cause other players to quit, you don't correct the guy, you boot him before he chases away your other players and its just you and him playing in hell. Do you want to be doomed to play D&D with that guy for eternity? I think not. If a guy is such a problem players quit, get rid of him man.
IF you like your players but the guy, you could talk to the players individually, explain how you feel and that you aren't having fun with the guy and its at the point where its either you fold the campaign or he leaves, what do they want? For those players who want to stay, you can form a new group, its doubtful they will want the guy to stay. But if they do wan the guy to stay, maybe record your session and play it back and watch objectively, possibly you are the problem and he's awesome, just saying. More than likely, he's the problem.
If you chose to kick him out, you can either tell him directly in chat, that you are folding the campaign and that its time to part ways. If he whines etc, you already gave him the cut, put him on mute and MOVE ON. The other way is you could say the campaign has ended "it hasn't", form a new discord if its online and continue playing without him having a way in.
By talking communicating and being honest with them... but "he's caused one player to "retire" their character and not play anymore." that's well past the point were I think I would be enjoying this anymore... are you still enjoying the sessions?
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
From the description that you offer, there is no solution but to kick the player in question. I might suggest that you're a "retired" character too late. I've not seen an instance of using in-game antics to solve out-of-game issues actually work. I'll concede that someone here may have experienced it, but I haven't.
Additionally, at the point where you've already stated that you've tried talking to him, you already know what comes next.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I've not seen an instance of using in-game antics to solve out-of-game issues actually work. I'll concede that someone here may have experienced it, but I haven't.
I doubt if anyone has, the distinction between IC and OOC exists because it is real.
... So my question... How do you all handle problem players? ...
I think that a potential goal might be getting them to engage in handling themselves.
This might seem laughable at this stage as, by the sound of things, the guy doesn't seem to be making any personal effort to curb his behaviour and my presumption is that he doesn't see it.
I really respect that you are bringing this up looking for a way forward. Clearly, you have no obligation to do anything. It's not your problem.
Having said that his problems going on in the game are probably affecting him in life elsewhere and, if he can deal with problems here, it may really help out throughout his life.
Speak to him about both his problem behaviour as well as parts of his play, if any, that fitted in. Outline the issues and put the ball in his court. If this is the situation what can you read, think about, do ... to help you develop insight into the situation and behaviours that will help all of you have great sessions together.
... His actions have almost caused party wipes a dozen times, ....
Maybe give him some homework, xxxx number words on why he thinks this or that happened and what the implications were on other characters/players and what could have been done ahead of time to lead towards a more positive (non-dying...) route of progression. There was that point of decision when their character made that move. Get them to focus on what brought things to that point and to write up their understandings of the situation. Perhaps get them to initiate related questions with the other players involved. They may possibly have one or two things to say.
By doing something like this you would be helping him to become a better player and, for you, a potentially viable player. Why should you do all the video watching and article reading? Highlight the problems that you want him to understand and deal with and let him, hopefully, put the effort into finding solutions. Get him to work on lists of things that other people might be looking for in a game. Maybe something will click.
Perhaps something like this could work but, if things don't, perhaps call time out. You will have listed the issues, bad and good, in his behaviour and he can try some online games if he can get in any. He can come back for the occasional one-shot.
It’s a sad day when someone has to kick a player, but the needs of the many. If you have tried talking to them before without success and other players are quitting, that is too much.
If one player's behaviour is causing other players to quit the game, you deliver this ultimatum:
This behaviour is upsetting the others at the table. I can't tolerate that at my table - do you think that you can stop doing those things? If you can't, then you'll have to leave the game. The only options are that you stop doing [issue], or you leave the game.
I've had to do this before. The player said she couldn't amend her behaviour (which was that she hated another player, and constantly WhatsApp'd the other players trying to get them to do things that would kill the player's character, and trying to sabotage the player's character in game) and so she would leave. I said that was fine. The weird thing was the player she hated was her former housemate and she'd been the one to bring him to the table.
In terms of the player's poor character design - are they just young, or lack originality/creativity? If you think that a character is based heavily on Anime or a CR character, just tell the player exactly how you feel and then work with them to make the character significantly different. Let's say that they want to base their character on Caleb from CR season 2: ask the player how they can keep the core idea of a wizard haunted by some attrocity that they committed, and then let's change them up! Switch the character's gender; instead of being ragged looking, they are borderline vain about their appearance as a way of distracting themselves from the thing that they did; secretly they enjoyed murdering their parents, and that makes them even more haunted, and so on.
In terms of the player trying to 'win' at D&D, if you can handle the other aspects and the player stays, tell them the following at the start of a session:
D&D is a collaborative game, where I set you challenges that I think you can probably just about overcome, but where the dice ultimately settle outcomes. It's important to understand that you cannot win at D&D, and you cannot 'beat' me as DM. At any time in the game, I can tell you that a rock has fallen from the sky, and you are not only dead, but your soul has been utterly annihilated, and all memory of your character existing has been wiped from the multiverse. In fact, if I want to, I can say that someone just travelled back in time, and prevented your character from even being born and existing in the first place. But with that power as DM, my role is never to be in opposition to your characters, and I want to see you succeed in the challenges I set you, but I am also going to set you those challenges in order for us all to tell a great story together. So try to lead your characters to success, but never ever think that beating those challenges involves beating me as the DM. It's like setting your house on fire so that by staring into the blaze you can't see the light of the sun. But the sun is still there, the fire you made is irrelevant, and now you don't have a house.
Thank you all for the advice. I've talked it over with my other players and they have collectively decided that they can wrangle him. Our "retired" player has expressed a desire to come back once we progress to a new campaign. I've never had to boot a player before and was not looking forward to having to do it.
I'm a disabled combat vet with serious PTSD, and running DnD has become the best therapy I have ever experienced. A part of me sees his actions as a failure as a DM. I know that's not true, that I can't control how the individual player acts, but yeah... sometimes PTSD brain makes zero sense.
well I've also found D&D very therapeutic but it is not a focused therapy which particularly when dealing with PTSD will be very tough, but Therapists and patients like DM's and players also need to fit each other... So if things really aren't working out looking somewhere else can be the right choice
I am glad you feel you have some support from the other players going forward, would be great if you gave us a follow up / update on how things pan out I know I'd be very interested to hear from you again how things are going
Wishing you all the best
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“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
Update --- After a very long talk with the player, he seems to have changed his entire approach to the sessions. He has been quiet, respectful, actually contributing to the campaign, no longer trying to make himself the focal point of every encounter.
Thanks for the update @RangerBoy1974 super glad on this turn of events
wishing you all the best
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“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
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So I've been playing since about 1983ish... Dm'ing since about 1989... in all those years I've never really had a "Problem Player" We've all seen the meme... dude with the serious expression on Splash Mountain... "The guy trying to Win at DnD"... Well I have one of those. Every session he tries to take center stage, be the "Hero" pouts if he doesn't get the killing shot in on anything. His character has died a few times... and a couple players have completely derailed the campaign to bring him back. His actions have almost caused party wipes a dozen times, and he's caused one player to "retire" their character and not play anymore. The guy has zero original thought... all of his characters have been modeled after either anime characters or Wish versions of the characters on Critical Role.
Part of me wants to have him walk into a room and come face to face with a death Knight, or something equally terrifying, but I know that won't do a damned thing. we've tried every approach; talking to him, had his paladin stripped of their powers, everything, and it works for about a session or two, but then he's back to his usual antics.
So my question... How do you all handle problem players? Short of kicking him from the game.
Is it in person or online? Do you know the person in real life? Is he mentally insane and knows where you live?
He's causing players to quit, that means you have a negative player who will cause other players to quit, you don't correct the guy, you boot him before he chases away your other players and its just you and him playing in hell. Do you want to be doomed to play D&D with that guy for eternity? I think not. If a guy is such a problem players quit, get rid of him man.
IF you like your players but the guy, you could talk to the players individually, explain how you feel and that you aren't having fun with the guy and its at the point where its either you fold the campaign or he leaves, what do they want? For those players who want to stay, you can form a new group, its doubtful they will want the guy to stay. But if they do wan the guy to stay, maybe record your session and play it back and watch objectively, possibly you are the problem and he's awesome, just saying. More than likely, he's the problem.
If you chose to kick him out, you can either tell him directly in chat, that you are folding the campaign and that its time to part ways. If he whines etc, you already gave him the cut, put him on mute and MOVE ON. The other way is you could say the campaign has ended "it hasn't", form a new discord if its online and continue playing without him having a way in.
By talking communicating and being honest with them... but "he's caused one player to "retire" their character and not play anymore." that's well past the point were I think I would be enjoying this anymore... are you still enjoying the sessions?
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
I echo the advice to talk to them sincerely in private.
In addition, this might help:
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^------- +1 to what Sposta posted
From the description that you offer, there is no solution but to kick the player in question. I might suggest that you're a "retired" character too late. I've not seen an instance of using in-game antics to solve out-of-game issues actually work. I'll concede that someone here may have experienced it, but I haven't.
Additionally, at the point where you've already stated that you've tried talking to him, you already know what comes next.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I doubt if anyone has, the distinction between IC and OOC exists because it is real.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I think that a potential goal might be getting them to engage in handling themselves.
This might seem laughable at this stage as, by the sound of things, the guy doesn't seem to be making any personal effort to curb his behaviour and my presumption is that he doesn't see it.
I really respect that you are bringing this up looking for a way forward. Clearly, you have no obligation to do anything. It's not your problem.
Having said that his problems going on in the game are probably affecting him in life elsewhere and, if he can deal with problems here, it may really help out throughout his life.
Speak to him about both his problem behaviour as well as parts of his play, if any, that fitted in. Outline the issues and put the ball in his court. If this is the situation what can you read, think about, do ... to help you develop insight into the situation and behaviours that will help all of you have great sessions together.
Maybe give him some homework, xxxx number words on why he thinks this or that happened and what the implications were on other characters/players and what could have been done ahead of time to lead towards a more positive (non-dying...) route of progression. There was that point of decision when their character made that move. Get them to focus on what brought things to that point and to write up their understandings of the situation. Perhaps get them to initiate related questions with the other players involved. They may possibly have one or two things to say.
By doing something like this you would be helping him to become a better player and, for you, a potentially viable player. Why should you do all the video watching and article reading? Highlight the problems that you want him to understand and deal with and let him, hopefully, put the effort into finding solutions. Get him to work on lists of things that other people might be looking for in a game. Maybe something will click.
Perhaps something like this could work but, if things don't, perhaps call time out. You will have listed the issues, bad and good, in his behaviour and he can try some online games if he can get in any. He can come back for the occasional one-shot.
It’s a sad day when someone has to kick a player, but the needs of the many. If you have tried talking to them before without success and other players are quitting, that is too much.
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If one player's behaviour is causing other players to quit the game, you deliver this ultimatum:
This behaviour is upsetting the others at the table. I can't tolerate that at my table - do you think that you can stop doing those things? If you can't, then you'll have to leave the game. The only options are that you stop doing [issue], or you leave the game.
I've had to do this before. The player said she couldn't amend her behaviour (which was that she hated another player, and constantly WhatsApp'd the other players trying to get them to do things that would kill the player's character, and trying to sabotage the player's character in game) and so she would leave. I said that was fine. The weird thing was the player she hated was her former housemate and she'd been the one to bring him to the table.
In terms of the player's poor character design - are they just young, or lack originality/creativity? If you think that a character is based heavily on Anime or a CR character, just tell the player exactly how you feel and then work with them to make the character significantly different. Let's say that they want to base their character on Caleb from CR season 2: ask the player how they can keep the core idea of a wizard haunted by some attrocity that they committed, and then let's change them up! Switch the character's gender; instead of being ragged looking, they are borderline vain about their appearance as a way of distracting themselves from the thing that they did; secretly they enjoyed murdering their parents, and that makes them even more haunted, and so on.
In terms of the player trying to 'win' at D&D, if you can handle the other aspects and the player stays, tell them the following at the start of a session:
D&D is a collaborative game, where I set you challenges that I think you can probably just about overcome, but where the dice ultimately settle outcomes. It's important to understand that you cannot win at D&D, and you cannot 'beat' me as DM. At any time in the game, I can tell you that a rock has fallen from the sky, and you are not only dead, but your soul has been utterly annihilated, and all memory of your character existing has been wiped from the multiverse. In fact, if I want to, I can say that someone just travelled back in time, and prevented your character from even being born and existing in the first place. But with that power as DM, my role is never to be in opposition to your characters, and I want to see you succeed in the challenges I set you, but I am also going to set you those challenges in order for us all to tell a great story together. So try to lead your characters to success, but never ever think that beating those challenges involves beating me as the DM. It's like setting your house on fire so that by staring into the blaze you can't see the light of the sun. But the sun is still there, the fire you made is irrelevant, and now you don't have a house.
Thank you all for the advice. I've talked it over with my other players and they have collectively decided that they can wrangle him. Our "retired" player has expressed a desire to come back once we progress to a new campaign. I've never had to boot a player before and was not looking forward to having to do it.
I'm a disabled combat vet with serious PTSD, and running DnD has become the best therapy I have ever experienced. A part of me sees his actions as a failure as a DM. I know that's not true, that I can't control how the individual player acts, but yeah... sometimes PTSD brain makes zero sense.
Again, I thank you all.
well I've also found D&D very therapeutic but it is not a focused therapy which particularly when dealing with PTSD will be very tough, but Therapists and patients like DM's and players also need to fit each other... So if things really aren't working out looking somewhere else can be the right choice
I am glad you feel you have some support from the other players going forward, would be great if you gave us a follow up / update on how things pan out I know I'd be very interested to hear from you again how things are going
Wishing you all the best
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
Update --- After a very long talk with the player, he seems to have changed his entire approach to the sessions. He has been quiet, respectful, actually contributing to the campaign, no longer trying to make himself the focal point of every encounter.
Nudge of Self Awareness sometimes has quite magical effects. Followed this thread, glad the outcome was positive.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Thanks for the update @RangerBoy1974 super glad on this turn of events
wishing you all the best
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again