Yes, a typical commoner makes less than 500gp/yr based on my model. A commoner living on a farm receives his room and board for free while he is there, so an income of 300gp/yr is equal to a comfortable living. This is consistent with history because farmers were the upper level of society until the Industrial Revolution.
Manor Lords don't do a whole lot better, but they only work a few months out of the year in service to the king. Presiding over the Manor provides them their income.
Baron's appear to make a killing, but I'm far away from having a good handle on that. It is clear the Baron's collect a "king's ransom" in taxes and stuff, but they also have staggering expenses to pay the cost of government with their gross revenues. Also, a smart Baron is going to sock away a big portion of his earnings until he has quite a nest egg. If he has a bad year, he still has to send his money up to the Count, who send it on to the Duke...
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I'm just working this out because I like the idea of the setting making sense. For example, I am annoyed if monsters are rampaging throughout the countryside. Monsters can be going crazy in the frontiers, but within the kingdom it doesn't make any sense because the farmers have to do their thing to feed the people.
Typically, farms are in rural, less populated areas that don't have much of a security presence, save for the farmer themselves. How does it not make sense that this would be a good place for "monsters" to harass the farmer? Coyotes, opossums, hawks and foxes play havok on a chicken coop if not properly guarded. Lack of security and policing presence might tend towards an opportunity for bandits to make some money "protecting" the farmers.
None of this is precise, but it is at least an order of magnitude better than the model hidden in the D&D ruleset.
There isn't a model economy in the D&D ruleset. There is a suggestion on how to allow a PC to use their gold and treasure during their downtime, and to account for the daily maintenance and repair of their equipment. Which, in my mind, is optional gameplay. Purely up to the table and DM. This mention in the PHB has absolutly nothing to do with what it would cost a commoner to live for a day. Creating a model economy and saying it's better than one that doesn't exist is the closest thing to fixing the engine on a bicycle that I've heard of. I might suggest that the removal of the cost of creating and running a stronghold or desmene from the ruleset happened for a reason. Perhaps not enough people were using it to justify the effort it takes to print it?
To me, simulations and realism are a bit of a moot point when we are playing a game about make-believe elves and dragons. If all of your granular reasearch (sorry for the pun) is what is fun at your table, then by all means, go for it.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Honestly, balancing the D&D economy is impossible using any rules as written.
I think the easiest way (and I am using this term lightly, since it will still be a ton of work, is to basically use real world economy and change your curreny to gold. Like for examlye make 1 Gold equal 1$, 1 Silver are 10c, 1 Copper is 1c, and then go based of real world values for income and prices.
This is still alot of work, but at least you have a baseline of realistic economy to work with.
Typically, farms are in rural, less populated areas that don't have much of a security presence, save for the farmer themselves. How does it not make sense that this would be a good place for "monsters" to harass the farmer?
Any serious 'monster' presence will result in there not being farmers.
Typically, farms are in rural, less populated areas that don't have much of a security presence, save for the farmer themselves. How does it not make sense that this would be a good place for "monsters" to harass the farmer?
Any serious 'monster' presence will result in there not being farmers.
Yeah. It sure does.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Honestly, balancing the D&D economy is impossible using any rules as written.
I think the easiest way (and I am using this term lightly, since it will still be a ton of work, is to basically use real world economy and change your curreny to gold. Like for examlye make 1 Gold equal 1$, 1 Silver are 10c, 1 Copper is 1c, and then go based of real world values for income and prices.
This is still alot of work, but at least you have a baseline of realistic economy to work with.
You'll get generally better result setting $1 to somewhere between 1 cp and 1 sp, though you'll still get very large anomalies. For example, looking at trade goods (all prices at the time of writing)
Wheat: real-world price is about $200/ton or $0.1/lb ($1 = 10cp)
Flour: real-world price is about $25 for a 50 lb bag or $0.5/lb ($1 = 4cp)
Chicken: real-world price is about $6 ($1 = 1/3 cp)
Salt: real-world price for 50 lb of food-grade salt is about $20 ($1 = 2 cp). Bulk salt is $58/ton ($1 = 170 cp).
Iron: real-world bulk iron price is about $133 per ton ($1 = 150 cp)
D&D Economy is a mess. Yes, you can say that Silver is the $, that means you can only go in 0.10 steps.
But if you really want to make a functional economy, step 1 is to throw out every single price that is in the PHB. They make no sense and its pretty clear that noone spend any thoughts on balancing it.
D&D Economy is a mess. Yes, you can say that Silver is the $, that means you can only go in 0.10 steps.
But if you really want to make a functional economy, step 1 is to throw out every single price that is in the PHB. They make no sense and its pretty clear that noone spend any thoughts on balancing it.
The trade goods table was always intended for "You found a pile of bulky loot, what is it worth" rather than realism, and I don't think it's changed significantly over the editions. Lifestyle costs imply around $50 to the gold, though the ratio of 'poor' (2sp) to 'modest' (1gp) is rather suspect.
D&D Economy is a mess. Yes, you can say that Silver is the $, that means you can only go in 0.10 steps.
But if you really want to make a functional economy, step 1 is to throw out every single price that is in the PHB. They make no sense and its pretty clear that noone spend any thoughts on balancing it.
There isn't an economy in D&D. There are suggestions for what your PCs can spend gold on, or an idea of what loot might be worth should they get, say a cask of grain, or a barrel of fish.
If you want to create an economy because that's the absolute only bestest way to D&D the right way, go ahead. But you will absolutely have to homebrew the entire thing, and balancing it to your world is a self-imposed problem.
Expecting there to be a method of balancing something that isn't there will only lead to being disappointed. Much like expecting a shopping mall Santa to know your name and what you want for Christmas.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
D&D Economy is a mess. Yes, you can say that Silver is the $, that means you can only go in 0.10 steps.
But if you really want to make a functional economy, step 1 is to throw out every single price that is in the PHB. They make no sense and its pretty clear that noone spend any thoughts on balancing it.
Expecting there to be a method of balancing something that isn't there will only lead to being disappointed. Much like expecting a shopping mall Santa to know your name and what you want for Christmas.
Couldnt have said it any better.
If OP really wants a functional economy in his game, and not spend weeks and months figuring out trading prices, he should just take a real life economy as an example. I mean, our world is filled with economies from those of wealth and abundance, to those of poverty and need.
That would still be alot of work to find corresponding prices for ingame items, but in the end, its (at least in my eyes) the only way to create a realistic economy.
So we have an idea of how many folks could be employed in farming and how many people their farming would support. I want to look at the next economic element in the pyramid, The Hamlet.
A Hamlet is the smallest grouping of homes in a non-farming settlement. There would still be some measure of farming around a Hamlet, but it would not be the focus of their economy as happens in a Manor. The average Hamlet for this examination is assumed to have 40 homes and a few other structures, with 40 families (and an average of 4 children per family) and another 40 unmarried adults. This results in 80 adults that are employed in labor outside the home and another 40 adults employed inside the home. The total population of this theorized settlement is 280 persons.
The Hamlet will include a farm cluster of four homes in a similar fashion to the Manor. There will also be shepherds tending flocks of sheep that produce both wool and meat. A small number of goats are part of the typical sheep herd. Another group of laborers will be woodsmen that harvest trees and possibly saw them into useful sizes. A smaller group will be teamsters that haul the logs to the Hamlet, and goods from the Hamlet to the nearest higher settlement. The Hamlet will have a blacksmith to make and maintain tools and other hardware. The woodsmen will be employed during the harvest at the Manor along with other adults that can take time away from the main employment. There will be draft animals on hand so a Stable Master will work at the Hamlet to care for the animals. He will be assisted by some of the boys too young to assist in shepherding.
The production from a Hamlet will include Grains, Wool, Timber, Meat, Cheese, Eggs, Chickens, Vegetables and other specialty goods. A leader, called a Reeve, and the local Sheriff, are accountable to the Baron (and the nearest Manor Lord) to make sure certain laws are followed regarding the harvesting of trees, hunting game and collecting taxes. There will also be a local religious figure, a friar, a deacon or a druid, to help see to the spiritual health of the community.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I am wondering how large, in gold pieces, my homebrew kingdom's economy should be. My players have reached a level where they are ready to interact on a national level and I find myself wanting to build a kingdom level budget from which the crown can allocate funds to player projects.
RAW, each pouch can only hold up to 6 lbs. and 300 coins. This means each coin is 0.2 ounces, or 9 grams, regardless of denomination. But since different materials have different mass and weight, the coins will vary in size.
For a point of reference, each solidus was only 4.5 grams. (A solidus was pure gold coin from the late Roman and Byzantine empires and saw use through at least the Carolingian empire.) During the reign of Charlemagne, the price of a spata (sword, descended from the Roman spatha) was fixed at 7 solidi; the in-game equivalent of 3 gold and 5 silver. Meaning a longsword costs four times as much as one of these bad boys. Which was still expensive, btw. Only cavalry were expected to own and wield them.
As for how big the actual economy should be, it would be absolutely massive. We're talking millions of gold. Just looking at the Downtime Activities in the DMG, a castle is worth a legendary magic item. A rare one is worth a small business. And that's just constructing them. Maintenance and upkeep are another matter. The same castle requires 400 gp/day to run smoothly. That's 146,000 gp for a 365-day calendar, like in the Forgotten Realms.
If you want an idea as to how much money should be allocated to different parts of the economy, brush up on urban planning. You need to cover public works, infrastructure, education, law enforcement, and so on. And remember all that is just a drop in the bucket, since they're funded by taxes paid by businesses and citizens.
Trying to come up with a D&D economy might be fun for some but it is pretty much pointless until the DM decides what the demographics are. In particular, the ability to utilize magic of any sort in daily activities will break any economic model you try to come up with unless the magic users are so scarce as to have no impact.
However, from the sounds of it, the world being created is intended to have so many druids available that field enrichment is a common use of their time. Given that, the DM needs to decide the impact of other magic spells on the world before they can even remotely develop some sort of guesswork economy that satisfies their world building urge.
Here are some examples off the top ...
- prestidigitation
-> entertainment - people with the cantrip can earn money performing unless everyone has it
-> lighting things - no need for any tools to light or extinguish fires/light sources
-> restaurants - the best restaurants will have someone casting prestidigitation on every meal - instant MSG with no side effects
-> cleaning - clothes become trivial to wash - no need for cleaners
- healing and resurrection
-> customs surrounding death - do people retain part of their deceased loved one in case they have the funds to get them resurrected? Raise Dead only costs 500gp and a commoner is suggested to make 300gp/yr - so it should be well within reach to resurrect any family member who doesn't die of old age - great way to deal with child mortality issues. Do they burn the rest of the body to get rid of the bones so that a necromancer can't change uncle Bob to a zombie or skeleton? Why would anyone bury relatives if they know that makes them vulnerable to becoming undead and never being resurrected? Not likely.
-> Speaking of mortality - lesser restoration cures diseases/poisons/blind or deaf - the population will be extremely healthy - and before you go saying that well magic isn't that common - consider that there are enough druids around casting the 3rd level plant growth they can easily cast more lesser restorations than plant growth.
-> healing - most healing spells will bring any commoner to full health. Spare the dying cantrip will prevent them from dying unless they are instantly killed.
- teleportation circle
This is admittedly a higher level spell (5th level but it only requires a caster and 50gp). Apparently temples, guilds and other important places have permanent ones. However, this would likely extend to many businesses.
-> Teleportation circles have no range limit - instantaneous travel from one location to another with no risk to valuable cargo. The ultimate in merchant trade - no ships, wagons or other conveyances needed for these merchants - transfer their goods instantly from production warehouse to distribution warehouse. Businesses using these will succeed where ones that suffer losses on their ships that cost thousands of gp each lose out.
-> Sending - instantaneous communications over long distances - assess market conditions, respond to drought and other factors so that your goods are delivered to those most willing to pay as quickly as possible.
Businesses will TRAIN people to cast just teleportation circle. There will be colleges where folks study day and night for this since the position is safe and well paid. Anyone who can cast a magic spell WILL do so because there is far too much money to be made even from prestidigitation never mind Teleportation circle.
Charm person
-> Charm spells exist - everyone knows it - how do you stop unscrupulous folks from taking advantage of it when robbing a shop? The shop keeper just hands over some gold to their best friend for safe keeping.
Unseen Servant
-> menial labor bot - can replace some of the more basic jobs but limited because it can only lift 30 pounds at a time. Also since it is 1/wizard probably not cost effective.
Wall of Stone/Mold Earth/Shape Water
-> Incredible applications in construction - you would never need folks to quarry stone for walls or homes with the ability to cast wall of stone and form buildings. Mold Earth allows the moving of incredible amounts of earth/soil. Dig huge foundations (in the proper conditions) within minutes. No need to hire laborers. Combine Mold Earth and Shape Water for making dams or other structures that interact with water. Lots of applications and significant economic impact since the world of magic would not operate on the same rules as ours.
Continual Flame
-> replaces all light sources with burning materials - why produce oil except for cooking - you don't need it for light, just pick up a continual light candle at the local shop - never breaks, never wears out, put a cloth over it if you want darkness. Much safer too.
Purify Food and Drink
-> Eliminate all food and water borne pathogens - goes along with lesser restoration in preventing sickness. If magic is common enough to get plants to grow in everyone's fields - then they will be pretty healthy folks.
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This is also only an abbreviated list of the relatively few "utility" spells in the PHB. Logically, the development of utility spells should far exceed combat spells since in most applications in society they would see far more use. This is another aspect of world building a DM should consider.
Anyway, the point of all this, until a DM decides on demographics and the impact of magic, it is challenging if not impossible to develop any "economic" description of a D&D world. Many folks just assume a medieval Earth setting with so little magic that it would not affect the economy while at the same time populating the world with so many magic using creatures that the assumption of a small impact is impossible to justify .. so if you want to have an idea of what a D&D economy might look like .. start with magic, demographics and the societal norms that will differ from medieval Earth type societies.
I had thought about Prestidigitation being used in the manner you suggested, and I actually do it with my PCs when they have the spell. But ...
There is no money to be made using Prestidigitation because it is ubiquitous enough to be available to any tavern that can afford to pay a bard to play in the evenings. They use it so often that it is a dime a dozen to them. This is how Bards get free rooms.
As for the rest of it, I was thinking about Teleportation Circles as well. This would be the way to get your crops to market, and anything else. I first thought about it when I realized that a Manor would probably produce a small number of eggs per day they didn't have to use, but getting them to market wouldn't work because they might spoil by the time you had enough to matter. Well, then I thought about Teleportation to get crops to market, but that would be expensive. But Teleportation Circle would possibly get the economics of it where it could happen. I haven't analyzed it enough to see if it is a ubiquitous solution, but there are other security issues.
Wall of Stone doesn't work because it lasts only ten minutes. whoops! My bad. If you maintain concentration it becomes permanent. Good to know.
If you have more economic spells, help me make a list. If I ever get my first cut of the model done, I'd like to consider to what extent magic would change it all up.
This is why I think adventurers are rare and really why casters are even rarer in a D&D world setting.
Both adventurers and casters are rare in my setting. I unleash about 40 new adventurers into my setting each year. Most of those retire around level 5 because they had one really good score and one very bad near death experience, and they knew there was worse out there waiting for them. So they say, "yup, NOPE." They often become some sort of official in the government because, well, they aren't going to become a farmer or a baker, so they do something in the government that pays relatively well.
The nobles in my world are mostly Paladins, but a few of them are from another class. The highest ranking Bards either just become wanderers chasing their dream of learning the best stories, or they become members of the diplomatic corps where in service to the king they continue to advance their skills (and levels). Swords bards often retire to a quiet place and become a Sheriff, usually the High Sheriff. They find that their charisma skill is put to use and appreciated by the local nobles who just want someone to collect taxes and settle disputes quietly.
Clerics find a place in the church hierarchy after leaving adventuring. Their talent for healing is put to good use there. Fighters often become leaders in the army where they continue to practice their skills but advance much more slowly. Barbarians often can't find a real place in society but find employment as trouble shooters, putting down bandits and other local trouble. Druids will retire to be among other druids and seek a life of solitude in the wilderness. Rogues retire from adventuring and then just get into trouble. Occasionally one finds his way to an honest living making quality locks and safes. Wizards, Sorcerers and Warlocks just find a new band to adventure with until they can afford to retire from working in a 'regular job' at all.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
So we have an idea of how many folks could be employed in farming and how many people their farming would support. I want to look at the next economic element in the pyramid, The Hamlet.
A Hamlet is the smallest grouping of homes in a non-farming settlement. There would still be some measure of farming around a Hamlet, but it would not be the focus of their economy as happens in a Manor. The average Hamlet for this examination is assumed to have 40 homes and a few other structures, with 40 families (and an average of 4 children per family) and another 40 unmarried adults. This results in 80 adults that are employed in labor outside the home and another 40 adults employed inside the home. The total population of this theorized settlement is 280 persons.
The Hamlet will include a farm cluster of four homes in a similar fashion to the Manor. There will also be shepherds tending flocks of sheep that produce both wool and meat. A small number of goats are part of the typical sheep herd. Another group of laborers will be woodsmen that harvest trees and possibly saw them into useful sizes. A smaller group will be teamsters that haul the logs to the Hamlet, and goods from the Hamlet to the nearest higher settlement. The Hamlet will have a blacksmith to make and maintain tools and other hardware. The woodsmen will be employed during the harvest at the Manor along with other adults that can take time away from the main employment. There will be draft animals on hand so a Stable Master will work at the Hamlet to care for the animals. He will be assisted by some of the boys too young to assist in shepherding.
The production from a Hamlet will include Grains, Wool, Timber, Meat, Cheese, Eggs, Chickens, Vegetables and other specialty goods. A leader, called a Reeve, and the local Sheriff, are accountable to the Baron (and the nearest Manor Lord) to make sure certain laws are followed regarding the harvesting of trees, hunting game and collecting taxes. There will also be a local religious figure, a friar, a deacon or a druid, to help see to the spiritual health of the community.
This would only work within the confines of a well-patrolled country.
A lot of wilderness (especially Forgotten Realms) is not well-patrolled, and so the above description would need to support some sort of local militia or standing squad of troops who are strong enough to protect the hamlet and all the surrounding farmland from the usual rampaging monsters that are common in fantasy worlds.
I had thought about Prestidigitation being used in the manner you suggested, and I actually do it with my PCs when they have the spell. But ...
There is no money to be made using Prestidigitation because it is ubiquitous enough to be available to any tavern that can afford to pay a bard to play in the evenings. They use it so often that it is a dime a dozen to them. This is how Bards get free rooms.
As for the rest of it, I was thinking about Teleportation Circles as well. This would be the way to get your crops to market, and anything else. I first thought about it when I realized that a Manor would probably produce a small number of eggs per day they didn't have to use, but getting them to market wouldn't work because they might spoil by the time you had enough to matter. Well, then I thought about Teleportation to get crops to market, but that would be expensive. But Teleportation Circle would possibly get the economics of it where it could happen. I haven't analyzed it enough to see if it is a ubiquitous solution, but there are other security issues.
Wall of Stone doesn't work because it lasts only ten minutes. whoops! My bad. If you maintain concentration it becomes permanent. Good to know.
If you have more economic spells, help me make a list. If I ever get my first cut of the model done, I'd like to consider to what extent magic would change it all up.
If your manors don't produce excess what happens to cities? The development of technology (or magic) leads to the concentration of citizens with specialized abilities into cities where it is more feasible for them to interact productively. The customers who can afford their products are also in cities. Not every region can produce the same things - food is the least common denominator - the real products of the civilization are metals, stone, valuable gems, other forms of resource based wealth - these raw materials are used to produce more desirable and valuable products that are either produced where they are purchased or are shipped. One city may have the local resources to become a specialist in dyes and textiles, they might have a school to pass along the techniques to locals wanting to learn the trade and go to work for one of the local textile mills. Other cities might specialize in producing pots, knives, and other metal implements. A third might have the clay resources to produce ceramics.
Each manor might produce food but the rest of the resources are not evenly distributed and it is more efficient to centralize production of finished goods so you will have cities that will require agricultural products. These trade their manufactured goods for raw materials and food usually through the use of some form of currency (barter is extremely inefficient and impossible to standardize).
Teleportation might be used for food but is far more likely to be used to move valuable raw materials efficiently as well as shipping valuable manufactured goods and weapons/armor to where they can obtain the best prices. The basic pots can be relegated to bulk shipping ... the valuable stuff goes by teleport.
However, this leads to the formation of a wealthy merchant class in competition with the traditional landed gentry or other inherited titles. Trade though is a valuable source of wealth for the kingdom since manufactured goods are worth far more than a bushel of wheat - so tax revenues are both significant and more focused. You need fewer tax collectors backed up by some sort of military force to collect taxes in a town with a high population than across a country side. Oversight in a town is also easier likely reducing corruption to some extent.
Anyway, all of these (and more! :) ) are considerations that need to be factored into developing some idea of how a D&D economy might really work. Concentration of wealth, personal vs state interests, economic efficiency etc. Some idealized model of an economy with manors with farms producing food, all the same, neatly structured - just isn't realistic assuming that these are typically chaotic self-motivated but also occasionally altruistic and group-motivated humans or any similar type of creature.
This is why I think adventurers are rare and really why casters are even rarer in a D&D world setting.
This strikes to the heart of why a lot people's advice is "don't bother trying to make it realistic." When you really get into it, it starts dictating major aspects of your setting. Heck, let's go maximum realism and have no casters at all! That sounds like true D&D, right?
I don't doubt that for some people, this is what they want. But for others, it's a trap where every world they can imagine is eventually forced into the same peasant-centric, low-magic, "gritty" type of setting. It's important to realize that world building is a fun game in its own right - but worlds that are fun to build aren't necessarily worlds that are fun to play D&D in. I think a DM has an obligation to prioritize the player experience and broad narrative concepts over "I really want peasant wages to make sense in comparison both to the cost of a sack of grain and the cost of plate mail."
It's important to remember that a properly functioning realistic society doesn't rely on adventurers to solve problems, so if you have adventurers about at all, either the society is broken, or it's unrealistic, and in either case realistic economies for a functional state don't apply.
Yes, a typical commoner makes less than 500gp/yr based on my model. A commoner living on a farm receives his room and board for free while he is there, so an income of 300gp/yr is equal to a comfortable living. This is consistent with history because farmers were the upper level of society until the Industrial Revolution.
Manor Lords don't do a whole lot better, but they only work a few months out of the year in service to the king. Presiding over the Manor provides them their income.
Baron's appear to make a killing, but I'm far away from having a good handle on that. It is clear the Baron's collect a "king's ransom" in taxes and stuff, but they also have staggering expenses to pay the cost of government with their gross revenues. Also, a smart Baron is going to sock away a big portion of his earnings until he has quite a nest egg. If he has a bad year, he still has to send his money up to the Count, who send it on to the Duke...
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Typically, farms are in rural, less populated areas that don't have much of a security presence, save for the farmer themselves. How does it not make sense that this would be a good place for "monsters" to harass the farmer? Coyotes, opossums, hawks and foxes play havok on a chicken coop if not properly guarded. Lack of security and policing presence might tend towards an opportunity for bandits to make some money "protecting" the farmers.
There isn't a model economy in the D&D ruleset. There is a suggestion on how to allow a PC to use their gold and treasure during their downtime, and to account for the daily maintenance and repair of their equipment. Which, in my mind, is optional gameplay. Purely up to the table and DM. This mention in the PHB has absolutly nothing to do with what it would cost a commoner to live for a day. Creating a model economy and saying it's better than one that doesn't exist is the closest thing to fixing the engine on a bicycle that I've heard of. I might suggest that the removal of the cost of creating and running a stronghold or desmene from the ruleset happened for a reason. Perhaps not enough people were using it to justify the effort it takes to print it?
To me, simulations and realism are a bit of a moot point when we are playing a game about make-believe elves and dragons. If all of your granular reasearch (sorry for the pun) is what is fun at your table, then by all means, go for it.
Best of luck in your journeys!
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Honestly, balancing the D&D economy is impossible using any rules as written.
I think the easiest way (and I am using this term lightly, since it will still be a ton of work, is to basically use real world economy and change your curreny to gold. Like for examlye make 1 Gold equal 1$, 1 Silver are 10c, 1 Copper is 1c, and then go based of real world values for income and prices.
This is still alot of work, but at least you have a baseline of realistic economy to work with.
Any serious 'monster' presence will result in there not being farmers.
Yeah. It sure does.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
You'll get generally better result setting $1 to somewhere between 1 cp and 1 sp, though you'll still get very large anomalies. For example, looking at trade goods (all prices at the time of writing)
D&D Economy is a mess. Yes, you can say that Silver is the $, that means you can only go in 0.10 steps.
But if you really want to make a functional economy, step 1 is to throw out every single price that is in the PHB. They make no sense and its pretty clear that noone spend any thoughts on balancing it.
The trade goods table was always intended for "You found a pile of bulky loot, what is it worth" rather than realism, and I don't think it's changed significantly over the editions. Lifestyle costs imply around $50 to the gold, though the ratio of 'poor' (2sp) to 'modest' (1gp) is rather suspect.
There isn't an economy in D&D. There are suggestions for what your PCs can spend gold on, or an idea of what loot might be worth should they get, say a cask of grain, or a barrel of fish.
If you want to create an economy because that's the absolute only bestest way to D&D the right way, go ahead. But you will absolutely have to homebrew the entire thing, and balancing it to your world is a self-imposed problem.
Expecting there to be a method of balancing something that isn't there will only lead to being disappointed. Much like expecting a shopping mall Santa to know your name and what you want for Christmas.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Couldnt have said it any better.
If OP really wants a functional economy in his game, and not spend weeks and months figuring out trading prices, he should just take a real life economy as an example.
I mean, our world is filled with economies from those of wealth and abundance, to those of poverty and need.
That would still be alot of work to find corresponding prices for ingame items, but in the end, its (at least in my eyes) the only way to create a realistic economy.
So we have an idea of how many folks could be employed in farming and how many people their farming would support. I want to look at the next economic element in the pyramid, The Hamlet.
A Hamlet is the smallest grouping of homes in a non-farming settlement. There would still be some measure of farming around a Hamlet, but it would not be the focus of their economy as happens in a Manor. The average Hamlet for this examination is assumed to have 40 homes and a few other structures, with 40 families (and an average of 4 children per family) and another 40 unmarried adults. This results in 80 adults that are employed in labor outside the home and another 40 adults employed inside the home. The total population of this theorized settlement is 280 persons.
The Hamlet will include a farm cluster of four homes in a similar fashion to the Manor. There will also be shepherds tending flocks of sheep that produce both wool and meat. A small number of goats are part of the typical sheep herd. Another group of laborers will be woodsmen that harvest trees and possibly saw them into useful sizes. A smaller group will be teamsters that haul the logs to the Hamlet, and goods from the Hamlet to the nearest higher settlement. The Hamlet will have a blacksmith to make and maintain tools and other hardware. The woodsmen will be employed during the harvest at the Manor along with other adults that can take time away from the main employment. There will be draft animals on hand so a Stable Master will work at the Hamlet to care for the animals. He will be assisted by some of the boys too young to assist in shepherding.
The production from a Hamlet will include Grains, Wool, Timber, Meat, Cheese, Eggs, Chickens, Vegetables and other specialty goods. A leader, called a Reeve, and the local Sheriff, are accountable to the Baron (and the nearest Manor Lord) to make sure certain laws are followed regarding the harvesting of trees, hunting game and collecting taxes. There will also be a local religious figure, a friar, a deacon or a druid, to help see to the spiritual health of the community.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
RAW, each pouch can only hold up to 6 lbs. and 300 coins. This means each coin is 0.2 ounces, or 9 grams, regardless of denomination. But since different materials have different mass and weight, the coins will vary in size.
For a point of reference, each solidus was only 4.5 grams. (A solidus was pure gold coin from the late Roman and Byzantine empires and saw use through at least the Carolingian empire.) During the reign of Charlemagne, the price of a spata (sword, descended from the Roman spatha) was fixed at 7 solidi; the in-game equivalent of 3 gold and 5 silver. Meaning a longsword costs four times as much as one of these bad boys. Which was still expensive, btw. Only cavalry were expected to own and wield them.
As for how big the actual economy should be, it would be absolutely massive. We're talking millions of gold. Just looking at the Downtime Activities in the DMG, a castle is worth a legendary magic item. A rare one is worth a small business. And that's just constructing them. Maintenance and upkeep are another matter. The same castle requires 400 gp/day to run smoothly. That's 146,000 gp for a 365-day calendar, like in the Forgotten Realms.
If you want an idea as to how much money should be allocated to different parts of the economy, brush up on urban planning. You need to cover public works, infrastructure, education, law enforcement, and so on. And remember all that is just a drop in the bucket, since they're funded by taxes paid by businesses and citizens.
Trying to come up with a D&D economy might be fun for some but it is pretty much pointless until the DM decides what the demographics are. In particular, the ability to utilize magic of any sort in daily activities will break any economic model you try to come up with unless the magic users are so scarce as to have no impact.
However, from the sounds of it, the world being created is intended to have so many druids available that field enrichment is a common use of their time. Given that, the DM needs to decide the impact of other magic spells on the world before they can even remotely develop some sort of guesswork economy that satisfies their world building urge.
Here are some examples off the top ...
- prestidigitation
-> entertainment - people with the cantrip can earn money performing unless everyone has it
-> lighting things - no need for any tools to light or extinguish fires/light sources
-> restaurants - the best restaurants will have someone casting prestidigitation on every meal - instant MSG with no side effects
-> cleaning - clothes become trivial to wash - no need for cleaners
- healing and resurrection
-> customs surrounding death - do people retain part of their deceased loved one in case they have the funds to get them resurrected? Raise Dead only costs 500gp and a commoner is suggested to make 300gp/yr - so it should be well within reach to resurrect any family member who doesn't die of old age - great way to deal with child mortality issues. Do they burn the rest of the body to get rid of the bones so that a necromancer can't change uncle Bob to a zombie or skeleton? Why would anyone bury relatives if they know that makes them vulnerable to becoming undead and never being resurrected? Not likely.
-> Speaking of mortality - lesser restoration cures diseases/poisons/blind or deaf - the population will be extremely healthy - and before you go saying that well magic isn't that common - consider that there are enough druids around casting the 3rd level plant growth they can easily cast more lesser restorations than plant growth.
-> healing - most healing spells will bring any commoner to full health. Spare the dying cantrip will prevent them from dying unless they are instantly killed.
- teleportation circle
This is admittedly a higher level spell (5th level but it only requires a caster and 50gp). Apparently temples, guilds and other important places have permanent ones. However, this would likely extend to many businesses.
-> Teleportation circles have no range limit - instantaneous travel from one location to another with no risk to valuable cargo. The ultimate in merchant trade - no ships, wagons or other conveyances needed for these merchants - transfer their goods instantly from production warehouse to distribution warehouse. Businesses using these will succeed where ones that suffer losses on their ships that cost thousands of gp each lose out.
-> Sending - instantaneous communications over long distances - assess market conditions, respond to drought and other factors so that your goods are delivered to those most willing to pay as quickly as possible.
Businesses will TRAIN people to cast just teleportation circle. There will be colleges where folks study day and night for this since the position is safe and well paid. Anyone who can cast a magic spell WILL do so because there is far too much money to be made even from prestidigitation never mind Teleportation circle.
Charm person
-> Charm spells exist - everyone knows it - how do you stop unscrupulous folks from taking advantage of it when robbing a shop? The shop keeper just hands over some gold to their best friend for safe keeping.
Unseen Servant
-> menial labor bot - can replace some of the more basic jobs but limited because it can only lift 30 pounds at a time. Also since it is 1/wizard probably not cost effective.
Wall of Stone/Mold Earth/Shape Water
-> Incredible applications in construction - you would never need folks to quarry stone for walls or homes with the ability to cast wall of stone and form buildings. Mold Earth allows the moving of incredible amounts of earth/soil. Dig huge foundations (in the proper conditions) within minutes. No need to hire laborers. Combine Mold Earth and Shape Water for making dams or other structures that interact with water. Lots of applications and significant economic impact since the world of magic would not operate on the same rules as ours.
Continual Flame
-> replaces all light sources with burning materials - why produce oil except for cooking - you don't need it for light, just pick up a continual light candle at the local shop - never breaks, never wears out, put a cloth over it if you want darkness. Much safer too.
Purify Food and Drink
-> Eliminate all food and water borne pathogens - goes along with lesser restoration in preventing sickness. If magic is common enough to get plants to grow in everyone's fields - then they will be pretty healthy folks.
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This is also only an abbreviated list of the relatively few "utility" spells in the PHB. Logically, the development of utility spells should far exceed combat spells since in most applications in society they would see far more use. This is another aspect of world building a DM should consider.
Anyway, the point of all this, until a DM decides on demographics and the impact of magic, it is challenging if not impossible to develop any "economic" description of a D&D world. Many folks just assume a medieval Earth setting with so little magic that it would not affect the economy while at the same time populating the world with so many magic using creatures that the assumption of a small impact is impossible to justify .. so if you want to have an idea of what a D&D economy might look like .. start with magic, demographics and the societal norms that will differ from medieval Earth type societies.
David42,
I had thought about Prestidigitation being used in the manner you suggested, and I actually do it with my PCs when they have the spell. But ...
There is no money to be made using Prestidigitation because it is ubiquitous enough to be available to any tavern that can afford to pay a bard to play in the evenings. They use it so often that it is a dime a dozen to them. This is how Bards get free rooms.
As for the rest of it, I was thinking about Teleportation Circles as well. This would be the way to get your crops to market, and anything else. I first thought about it when I realized that a Manor would probably produce a small number of eggs per day they didn't have to use, but getting them to market wouldn't work because they might spoil by the time you had enough to matter. Well, then I thought about Teleportation to get crops to market, but that would be expensive. But Teleportation Circle would possibly get the economics of it where it could happen. I haven't analyzed it enough to see if it is a ubiquitous solution, but there are other security issues.
Wall of Stone doesn't work because it lasts only ten minutes. whoops! My bad. If you maintain concentration it becomes permanent. Good to know.
If you have more economic spells, help me make a list. If I ever get my first cut of the model done, I'd like to consider to what extent magic would change it all up.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
This is why I think adventurers are rare and really why casters are even rarer in a D&D world setting.
Both adventurers and casters are rare in my setting. I unleash about 40 new adventurers into my setting each year. Most of those retire around level 5 because they had one really good score and one very bad near death experience, and they knew there was worse out there waiting for them. So they say, "yup, NOPE." They often become some sort of official in the government because, well, they aren't going to become a farmer or a baker, so they do something in the government that pays relatively well.
The nobles in my world are mostly Paladins, but a few of them are from another class. The highest ranking Bards either just become wanderers chasing their dream of learning the best stories, or they become members of the diplomatic corps where in service to the king they continue to advance their skills (and levels). Swords bards often retire to a quiet place and become a Sheriff, usually the High Sheriff. They find that their charisma skill is put to use and appreciated by the local nobles who just want someone to collect taxes and settle disputes quietly.
Clerics find a place in the church hierarchy after leaving adventuring. Their talent for healing is put to good use there. Fighters often become leaders in the army where they continue to practice their skills but advance much more slowly. Barbarians often can't find a real place in society but find employment as trouble shooters, putting down bandits and other local trouble. Druids will retire to be among other druids and seek a life of solitude in the wilderness. Rogues retire from adventuring and then just get into trouble. Occasionally one finds his way to an honest living making quality locks and safes. Wizards, Sorcerers and Warlocks just find a new band to adventure with until they can afford to retire from working in a 'regular job' at all.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
This would only work within the confines of a well-patrolled country.
A lot of wilderness (especially Forgotten Realms) is not well-patrolled, and so the above description would need to support some sort of local militia or standing squad of troops who are strong enough to protect the hamlet and all the surrounding farmland from the usual rampaging monsters that are common in fantasy worlds.
If your manors don't produce excess what happens to cities? The development of technology (or magic) leads to the concentration of citizens with specialized abilities into cities where it is more feasible for them to interact productively. The customers who can afford their products are also in cities. Not every region can produce the same things - food is the least common denominator - the real products of the civilization are metals, stone, valuable gems, other forms of resource based wealth - these raw materials are used to produce more desirable and valuable products that are either produced where they are purchased or are shipped. One city may have the local resources to become a specialist in dyes and textiles, they might have a school to pass along the techniques to locals wanting to learn the trade and go to work for one of the local textile mills. Other cities might specialize in producing pots, knives, and other metal implements. A third might have the clay resources to produce ceramics.
Each manor might produce food but the rest of the resources are not evenly distributed and it is more efficient to centralize production of finished goods so you will have cities that will require agricultural products. These trade their manufactured goods for raw materials and food usually through the use of some form of currency (barter is extremely inefficient and impossible to standardize).
Teleportation might be used for food but is far more likely to be used to move valuable raw materials efficiently as well as shipping valuable manufactured goods and weapons/armor to where they can obtain the best prices. The basic pots can be relegated to bulk shipping ... the valuable stuff goes by teleport.
However, this leads to the formation of a wealthy merchant class in competition with the traditional landed gentry or other inherited titles. Trade though is a valuable source of wealth for the kingdom since manufactured goods are worth far more than a bushel of wheat - so tax revenues are both significant and more focused. You need fewer tax collectors backed up by some sort of military force to collect taxes in a town with a high population than across a country side. Oversight in a town is also easier likely reducing corruption to some extent.
Anyway, all of these (and more! :) ) are considerations that need to be factored into developing some idea of how a D&D economy might really work. Concentration of wealth, personal vs state interests, economic efficiency etc. Some idealized model of an economy with manors with farms producing food, all the same, neatly structured - just isn't realistic assuming that these are typically chaotic self-motivated but also occasionally altruistic and group-motivated humans or any similar type of creature.
This strikes to the heart of why a lot people's advice is "don't bother trying to make it realistic." When you really get into it, it starts dictating major aspects of your setting. Heck, let's go maximum realism and have no casters at all! That sounds like true D&D, right?
I don't doubt that for some people, this is what they want. But for others, it's a trap where every world they can imagine is eventually forced into the same peasant-centric, low-magic, "gritty" type of setting. It's important to realize that world building is a fun game in its own right - but worlds that are fun to build aren't necessarily worlds that are fun to play D&D in. I think a DM has an obligation to prioritize the player experience and broad narrative concepts over "I really want peasant wages to make sense in comparison both to the cost of a sack of grain and the cost of plate mail."
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
It's important to remember that a properly functioning realistic society doesn't rely on adventurers to solve problems, so if you have adventurers about at all, either the society is broken, or it's unrealistic, and in either case realistic economies for a functional state don't apply.