I am in a bit of a GM pickle and seeking advice on the matter of my game. PCs have adventured the land, and with each town or group they helped out have made several friends loyal to the PCs. Now, the PCs are going against an adult dragon.
They want to have each town or group send an army as their payment for helping the towns and groups out - they have a gnome kingdom, the Lord's Alliance, the Zhents, wererats, a lodge of hunters, a tribe of goblins, myconids, a Chimera, Owlbear, and giant goat.
D&D is horrible and does not have rules for large-scale combat - and the dragon is one foe with the PCs wanting to mobilize an army against it. The problem is how do I stop this? I told them D&D is not really an army game and taking the dragon on is the job of their party.
In response, the players protested, "so everything we did was for nothing?" They went on to list the number of reasons they should have an army - something like Dragon Age. But that is not D&D, it's a video game.
Without taking away their player agency, how can I let the PC's "army" take on the dragon designed for adventurers, or let the army get involved in the combat? I don't want this to be, "The DM said so!" type of situation. Players want their ideas to happen, but I just don't know how to run something like this in D&D.
How can I run something that makes them happy, involves their "army" in the dragon battle, and make it reasonable for the PCs to partake in? The only thing I can think of is narrate the whole thing - an army takes down an adult dragon. You win, move on to next campaign. yay...(very disappointed DM)
BTW - I *hate* current video games, and have never played anything since Okami with the PS2. So I don't know everything about Dragon Age, just watched YouTube videos on it. I guess an army fights the dragon with you.
As the armies approach the dragon's lair, the dragon can easily fly up high and just strafe the army with it's breath. There will no longer be an army, and the morale of the survivors will be massively reduced - some fleeing in terror.
Any member of a town militia probably won't be too happy if they are asked to face a dragon - dragons are really scary!
If the army does get close, how are they going to resist against the adult dragon's frightful presence?
If armies worked against dragons, there would be no dragons left in the world.
All the NPCs will most likely have heard stories of the more recent dragon attacks that have occurred by various different dragons.
The way 5th edition is structured, a normal dragon can't really beat an army in an up-front battle (a shadow dragon might...), so it has to rely on lairs that are hard to find and/or reach ("Most chromatic dragon lairs are hidden in dangerous and remote locations to prevent all but the most audacious mortals from reaching them"), and the regional effects of a lair will make naturally difficult terrain even worse. Natural obstacles (cliffs, etc) that barely slow down a high level party are going to be nearly impassible for an army.
That said, you may have already established where the dragon is, and if it's somewhere accessible, the PCs taking an army there seems reasonable enough. However, bear in mind that a dragon put a lair somewhere accessible probably had a reason to think it was safe, such as a friendly army protecting the location, and there's no realistic way for an army to sneak up on a dragon; the dragon's going to avoid the army and probably just go around and lay waste to their homes.
However, if your players really want to use an army, the easiest way to give them what they want without it being a boring 'and then the army shoots the dragon and it dies' scenario is to give a dragon an army of its own. A party of PCs can reasonably sneak past all that stuff, maybe getting into a couple skirmishes with patrols, but an army is going to get everything at once. Then just handwave army vs army while you run PCs vs dragon.
There is a scene in episode 2 where a dragon decimates an army. This is what you should be aiming for.
The PCs are making a terrible mistake, and it will cost them greatly. I don't know what level the PCs are, but since it's an adult dragon its CR will be around 13-17 and so I'm guessing the PCs are somewhere between level 9 and level 12. These allies needed the PCs help before: they don't have hundreds of warriors at their beck and call who can go off leaving their own lands unprotected. So let's say that they can send 20 warriors each? If the PCs argue they should get more, then they can just be told No. But I'll deal with that later on.
Let's assume an Adult Green Dragon (CR15, with an Intelligence of 18). The dragon swoops down towards the army while its travelling, or maybe bursts up from the water around its lair (sub in whatever terrain type the dragon favors so it surprises them) and unleashes its breath weapon attack. That's 56 (16d6) damage on everything within a 60 foot cone. Everything that the PCs have brought with them that's in that area dies. Goblins, 7hp. Human knights and their noble leader, dead. The owlbear has 59hp but will die on a marginally better than average roll. Wererats, myconids, hunters, they're all going to die. These creatures simply cannot provide useful help because they're all dead.
After the first breath weapon, the dragon uses the rest of its movement to dive under water, fly into a cave, or otherwise escape line of sight so that it can't be peppered with arrows or even attacked by the PCs. Ensure that it attacks at night, so that it has Darkvision and many enemies don't. Better yet, kill them off while they're sleeping. Even with sentries, there is no real way for them to detect a dragon dive bombing them from a cloudy, pitch black sky in the wilderness. The dragon will Surprise the army, deal massive damage...
And then the rest of the army run for it. The army are not under the PCs direct control. Seeing the absolute devastation and impossibility of surviving a hit, PCs would run; so too will the NPCs. One or two good breath weapon attack passes, and the army is going to scatter to the wind. Whatever debt they feel they owed, short of being threatened with death, they are not charging into that. No freaking chance.
The dragon is Intelligence 18. It will hit and run. Moreover, armies are slow. An army moves 8 to 10 miles per day. It needs a substantial train of wagons carrying all the food, tents, and other gear that they need. The dragon can hit the wagons first if you like, leading to the army having no food resources and growing weak. That's what I'd do as a dragon faced with an army.
Moreover, the dragon is very fast. Faced with an army approaching, why not have it go and gather aid? Dragons are territorial, but what if it enlists that tribe of Stone Giants who will also feel threatened by this little army? Does the dragon already have a cult of lizardfolk who worship it as a god?
How else can the super smart dragon use terrain to its advantage? Start an avalanche when they're on a mountain trail. Lure them into a quagmire. The army is slow, ponderous and obvious. The dragon is fast, cunning and ruthless. It has all the tools it needs to destroy them while they're on the move.
Let the players build their army, and then show them exactly why armies of low level creatures do not mess with a dragon.
Oh, and double/triple its hit points if it's supposed to be a boss - DnD5e monsters all have shockingly low hit points. I do that for most monster of CR6 and higher as a matter of course just so that fights aren't over in 1-2 turns.
Logistics of assembling then moving an army, plus attacks of attrition (heck have the attacks start before the army is even "united" ... some units never show up because they got cooked, Dragon has nothing but time while the PC play big war map), not to mention the boondoggle of trying to maneuver an army (and this actually isn't a "combined arms" force, but coalition that has never fought in this fashion before, they'll be tripping over each other) up to the dragon's lair. It's going to be largely a slaughter and route till the PCs realize what they really need is a small team of highly skilled ... oh wait, that was them.
And let's not even start with the recrimination and general enmity and ill-will the PCs have now built among their former allied powers after the party's grand army misadventure destabilizes regional security for maybe a generation ... the hoard's largely going to go to reparations, and the party may still be exiled in disgrace.
There are two approaches you can take with the party.
First explain the mechanics of D&D 5E, how critical hits work and explain to them that if they have 100 archers in each of the 5 humanoid type armies, that's 500 bows, of which 5 percent will hit as critical hits meaning the dragon will take 25 critical hits per turn before it gets into fear range. So, lets say they are all Dex 10, so (2d8) * 25 * .5 = 200 damage done on average in the first turn, not counting 19's that will kill the dragon in one turn. If it is an adult red dragon, it would have 56 hit points. Now ask the party, if the dragon knew that was coming, as old as it was, would it simply stand up to let you players roll the critical hits and die or would he simply flee and you'll never get to fight him with your army in the first place? Furthermore, is that how you want to go for the final battle? If the players say yes they want that, I'd give them exactly this fight they win, I'd say thank you for them playing and drop them. I truly hate players who behave like this frankly, they don't want to play the game they want to have no chance at death, they just want to win no matter what. They could also try sneaking in, poisoning the dragon or stealing something of worth rather than throwing overwhelming numbers.
Second explain to compensate for this vastly overwhelming force, the dragons lair will be quite upgraded. He will have a decent size defense force and a very good chance of winning, otherwise if he saw that force, he'd collapse his lair and fly off and choose not to fight. Explain to the players each one will have to roll for each 100 and keep track of their rolls. You expect them to pay attention during the session and deal with the 10 to 15 minute turns until the army is worn down. They want that mess, explain how its going to play out. If you want to reduce it down to smaller numbers you can do that as well, but if its large town, they are going to balk from the sounds of the players you have now. Even then, it doesn't matter the town owes them, its highly unlikely that CR 0 humanoids will go into a dragons lair to fight, they aren't heroes. The party is heroes, heroes go out and slays dragons, not a conscript with a chain shirt, a mace and a light crossbow. I always set up dragon fights to be minimum a Hard fight by CR if the party has went through the lair with the daily XP budget taken into account. So if they are a CR 80 group with that many men, they'll be fighting a CR 100 with his allies.
Frankly no town would risk pissing off an adult red dragon and have it be traced back to them. At best give them maybe one representative from each village and give the dragon a good chance of recognizing what village they are from. If the dragon can escape, have the dragon attack the town it recognized and lay waste. Perhaps the players are in town to help or they realized what would happen. Dragons have escape plans, especially adult dragons, they don't grow that old if they are stupid.
The dragon also doesn't have to be alone either. The dragon could be a female red with about 5 adult red male dragons fighting to mate with her as the army approaches. If they have 500 archers, its now a fair fight with the males going suicidal to prove they are the strongest to mate with her. Now they have to figure out how to deal with the horde of horny red dragons and an Army that will most likely be in rout plus the female red dragon will know the party tried to kill her and the audacity while she was in her mating cycle, something must be done about the party now.
Give the dragon an army of its own. The PC’s friends have to fight that army as a distraction while the party goes to fight the dragon. They maybe have to pick through some smaller monsters on the way.
Occasionally, you narrate what’s happening in the big battle.
dragons are extremely powerful creatures will AOE attacks. if you dont want them to have an army for the fight, have the dragon decimate a large amount of their army with its breath weapon and make the rest run away in terror. then they have an angry dragon stating at their command tent. good luck running or reorganizing.
When I ran Storm King's a few years ago my party failed to stop Imyrith at the kingdom of the storm giant's and so had to pursue Imyrith to her lair to slay her there. We are talking about a named legendary dragon, in her own lair. As the DM, I gave the party a choice: They could rally their previous favors and faction connections to create a strike force or try to sucker punch the dragon as fast as possible. If they chose to rally their forces, the dragon would have an equal time to prepare for their approach. On my end the encounter didn't change at all, just the mode of approach. If the party had arrived alone, I would have described them fighting through the terrain effects until arriving at the lairs entrance. Because the party chose to rally an army, when they arrived at the patch of desert holding the dragon's lair there were hordes of enemies lying in wait hidden in the sandstorm. I described how the advancing force arranged themselves, gave each faction/group a specific role to play in the battle, and then described how the army was able to carve a path to the dungeon entrance. The party made a few fluff rolls to help inspire/conduct their friends, but once they arrived at the dragon's lair the encounter was exactly the same as written in the book. The only difference was the din of battle outside, which helped serve as a reminder of the stakes.
tl;dr Let them have their army, ham it up and describe an epic battle, but don't bother trying to simulate it with dice. Your goal is to help them feel like their choices helped shape the story, but the actual fight with the dragon can go as originally planned.
Let the army help the PCs with mundane things. Let it eliminate some or all of the resource-draining encounters on the way to the dragon.
They encounter a ravine? A group of soldiers shop down some trees and build a bridge. Now the PCs can cross without having to use spell slots or item charges on things like flying.
They stop to camp. One group of soldiers pitches tents and another cooks food. The PCs can spend all their energy preparing to fight. Perhaps the good food and quiet sleep gives them an inspiration to use the next day?
The dragons minions swarm the camp. The soldiers deal with the atack, sparing the PCs from spending more spell slots or item charges.
But when its time to face the dragon, the soldiers make it clear. "We got you this far, heroes, but its your journey and your journey alone from here. May the blessings of the gods go with you. We'll be here when you return.
Let the army help the PCs with mundane things. Let it eliminate some or all of the resource-draining encounters on the way to the dragon.
They encounter a ravine? A group of soldiers shop down some trees and build a bridge. Now the PCs can cross without having to use spell slots or item charges on things like flying.
They stop to camp. One group of soldiers pitches tents and another cooks food. The PCs can spend all their energy preparing to fight. Perhaps the good food and quiet sleep gives them an inspiration to use the next day?
The dragons minions swarm the camp. The soldiers deal with the atack, sparing the PCs from spending more spell slots or item charges.
But when its time to face the dragon, the soldiers make it clear. "We got you this far, heroes, but its your journey and your journey alone from here. May the blessings of the gods go with you. We'll be here when you return.
The problem with 5E is if the players has even a 1/3rd of their resources a hard encounter is a guaranteed win. They have to be drained enough that a hard encounter is actually a hard encounter. The encounter would have to be set up to drain their resources down to at least be at the third.
The problem with 5E is if the players has even a 1/3rd of their resources a hard encounter is a guaranteed win. They have to be drained enough that a hard encounter is actually a hard encounter. The encounter would have to be set up to drain their resources down to at least be at the third.
That's mostly just a problem with terminology. Players aren't supposed to know that the DMG calls a given encounter 'hard', so if you just relabeled the columns to provide less confusing DM advice it would solve things.
You could have the pcs and a few other members of the army get into the lair, then something blocks the way for the rest to get in, and the dragon confronts the players, giving them no option except to fight it without the army then maybe if the battle seems lost/almost won the army finds a way in to help finish the fight.
or some variation of that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Hollow unbreakable arrows are the most OP common magic item, and my current method of coming up with insane combat shenanigans.
if you make a steel pipe with one end closed and a nozzle on the other, you can enlarge it, fill with any liquid, and then drop concentration, creating a high pressure squirt gun. (or a pipe bomb, depending if it holds)
What was the dragon doing while the party was creating alliances, just sleeping on its hoard?
As Xalthu said, the dragon should have an army of its own. Dragons are powerful, influential, manipulative. They gather cults and other followers around them and they gather information. The dragon should know all about the gathering army and be forming a force to meet it. The PC's army is the price of admission to even get to the dragon.
Armies are not designed to fight dragons without casualties. While an army could, by D&D rules, eventually defeat a dragon if it was prevented from flying, it would be unlikely that an army would meaningfully contribute to a dragon fighting optimally. Let's break it down by faction:
Gnomes: Gnomes have some spellcasters, who might be able to contribute a bit. However, gnomes, being small creatures, can only use non-heavy weapons, which basically limits them to shortbows. Unless they have creatures who ignore range increments, they'd be rolling at disadvantage, and against a dragon, low CR gnomes would have pretty abysmal chances to hit. Assuming that the gnomes send a handful of fighters, and ten percent can use cantrips or first level spells and forty percent are proficient archers, you only have maybe a few that could even damage the dragon before it gets into fear aura range. They might save against the fear effect, but without ranged options that reach the dragon from outside its fear aura without disadvantage on the roll, they will score a few scarce hits and do not a lot of damage. Again, consider this: the scale of what the heroes did must justify risking that all the people they send end up dead, since they are not particularly good at dragon slaying because of their small size and restricted range.
The Lord's Alliance/Zhents: Humans fare a bit better because of longbows. Their extreme range actually gives them several turns, even with disadvantage, before they come into the dragon's range and they can even, at maximum range, hit the dragon before being affected by its fear effect. However, not all humans are proficient in longbows, the Zhents and the Lord's Alliance do not get along well, and neither side is willing to send troops into a meat grinder- a dragon will inflict heavy casualties on even knights and soldiers. The Zhents might be able to provide some indirect assistance with recon and support, and the Lord's Alliance can similarly provide a few specialists, but I would expect that it would be far from an army.
Wererats: Ineffective against a dragon at range, though actually surprisingly effective up close (until the dragon's breath comes into play, that is). They might be able to strike the dragon while it's in its lair and wound it, but I wouldn't expect them to commit particularly hard- unless you've reflavored them, wererats are pretty skittish and wouldn't fight a dragon without an unfair advantage.
Myconids: No ranged options, probably poor synergy with other allied forces, can't maneuver or fight effectively in sunlight. Unless they happen to have a tunnel into the dragon's lair, they're next to worthless here. Even their strongest option, their spores, are too weak to affect an adult or ancient dragon with its high constitution saves.
Goblins: Unless you've reflavored them, goblins are not known for great combat morale or organization. They might be, at least for the more reckless ones, willing to attack a dragon, but they'd likely fight ineffectively, since they don't have great ranged options to deal with a dragon and rely on trickery and ambushes to defeat larger creatures, something which dragons usually outwit or avoid.
Hunters: Actually probably the best bet that they have, because archers with longbows are the optimal way for low CR creatures to fight dragons. However, most hunting lodges could only spare a few experienced hunters to fight a dragon, unless they specialize in hunting monsters.
Chimera: This list of things they've helped that they can call a favor in from is getting a bit... eclectic. At least they're not murder hobos, right? The chimera might actually be a good addition, though admittedly it will likely get killed off. It's breath weapon is not likely to really bother the dragon, but it can fly and make several attacks, so it can at least help. That would be more manageable on your end, too- one chimera is less disruptive to the flow of the session than a human army.
Owlbear/Giant Goat: Not really going to do much. Unless serving as a steed for a party member, their contribution would be getting cheesed by flight.
The Dragon: I think it's worth reflecting on this, because it explains why the party won't get as much assistance as they might feel entitled to. Depending on the type of dragon you're running, they have various ways of dealing with threats. They can use their lairs as chokepoints, scything down swarms of small, low durability creatures with their breath weapons and limiting the number of attackers to their advantage, then withdraw and recover when they become overwhelmed. They can strafe maneuvering forces approaching their lair from the air, destroying with impunity any forces without ranged protection (so all your gnomes would be dead on the way there, most likely). Any creature without ranged options is likely to find itself completely worthless in the open, and a full army can't move stealthily enough (even with amazing rolls) to sneak up on an actively patrolling dragon- you have to try pretty hard to get concealment from every angle, especially while moving. A dragon whose lair hasn't been discovered can maneuver unexpectedly, using mountaintops and other inaccessible areas to rest without having the risk of being ambushed by traditional armies. If the dragon is willing to abandon its lair, it can simply fly elsewhere for a bit and return later- none of the creatures listed above besides the chimera, which is not close to a match to a dragon, have reliable flight across their forces. Obviously, the party is welcome to call in favors, but no one is going to be rushing to send an army on what is mostly a suicide mission. There are certainly factions and groups that are reasonably equipped to fight dragons, but none of them are the ones your party has attempted to recruit.
If the party insists, cashing in favors and forcing the hands of their connections, it would be easy for the dragon to fight strategically- these groups are likely going to coordinate poorly, and they'll get picked off, suffer morale failures, and withdraw unless the party themselves directly intervene. A good way to play this out would be an attack on an army camp at night- depending on the dragon's breath weapon type, it could easily fly in, strafe several tents and destroying, setting ablaze, melting, freezing, killing etc. the contents, and then fly away. The army maneuvers to the dragon's lair, only for it to have set a trap using the surrounding terrain (and, if applicable, its lair features) to inflict heavy damage and escape to wage more war. If the party's objective is to kill the dragon (and not drive it off or loot its lair), the dragon could simply fight a war of attrition- they're intelligent creatures, and while I wouldn't encourage you to ignore the flaws of dragons (especially their pride) they are also cunning, devious, and malevolent. Even a proud dragon might find more joy in harassing a retreating column of troops than in honest battle.
Finally, if the party really insists on having the climactic battle having allies with them, and they manage to address the concerns somehow, you can simply use a stronger dragon statblock, or modify it with more crowd control, to inflict heavy casualties on their allies. If there are any NPCs who might be involved that the party would like to protect, this would be a good time to get them involved- they might be fine sending an army of faceless minions to their deaths, but when the friendly hunter that the party worked with in the past gets hit with 18d6 fire damage, that's a very different story. Do be careful with balance here- you're not trying to punish your players for wanting an army, just demonstrating the consequences of having combatants who aren't really prepared for the threat get involved. You might not need to tweak anything at all- myconids, for example, just get destroyed by dragons. Finally, if the party just sends their army to do the fighting, have the dragon use its tricks and escape after inflicting heavy casualties. If the party had a strong army to begin with, having heavy loses and crushed morale will make all but the most stalwart allies (ones you could work into a climactic battle) retreat.
It's also worth asking if this is the *end* of the campaign or just part of a continuing campaign. If the party ever intends to cash in favors with these factions again, sending hundreds of their troops to die fighting a dragon is going to be a real sticking point in future negotiations.
The one thing I would absolutely encourage against is just saying no entirely (though you can certainly say that they only receive a few specialists from each faction instead of a full army, bonus points for sending NPCs they already know) or hand-waving away the army entirely once they have it. They should be able to call on their allies if they want, but you should convey in your response that an army is ill suited to fight a dragon, and that the people they're asking for assistance know this. Also make sure that the dragon reacts to their decisions instead of just waiting until they reach their lair. A night time attack on the army's camp is an almost certain way to both raise the emotional stakes and investment in killing the dragon, but also justify why you might have factions not send a full army- because it's exactly what they would be afraid of and expect. If there are ways to have these factions assist without sending troops, that could also be another way- perhaps a group of goblins provide a distraction, luring the dragon away from its lair so the party can set an ambush, or the Lord's Alliance provides some scouting to let the party know what the dragon is up to while they approach. There are plenty of options, shy of sending entire armies, that the party can call in past favors *without* resulting in tossing a thousand miniatures on a map against one big dragon and you can reward them for their past endeavors without ruining the cinematic encounter you have planned.
With an army you would also likely use the Handling Mobs rules, which removes the concept of criticals in order to simplify the damage that a large mob will inflict.
A bit more context may help us provide more precise answers. What type of dragon is it and is it male or female? Is this dragon the big bad of your campaign or just one more threat and how urgent is dealing with it? How big is your party and what level are they? How strong are the bonds that tie their potential allies to them?
The dragons type and gender tells us how s/he's likely would deal with the threat of the allies. Reds are more likely to attack directly(possibly the city's, towns, villages, while they're still preparing) while a green will likely be sneakier(sowing distrust among factions, poisoning water supplies, even trying to lure the potential allies to the dragon's side). A female could very well have a mate (or mates) that react poorly to an army coming to kill them. (A male could also have a female mate, perhaps even one with eggs to protect)
The threat of urgency plays a big role in things to. Is this the final battle or will those allies be better held in reserve? Is this dragon chilling in its lair or is it actively attacking things? What did it do to attract your party's ire? This will determine how appropriate it is to wait the months it would take to probably raise the army or if they would be better off with a strike team.
The party size and strength are next. Are they a 3 or 4 man band that fear a dragon would mean a high risk of death? Are they 5 or 6 in which case why are they needing an army at all? I assume they're decently leveled with all the allies they've managed to gain so this seems more of a style request than a challenge one.
How close are they to these allies? Saving a town or village is all well and good, but those allies may be reluctant to suddenly have all those people the adventures saved killed fighting a dragon. Also is an Owlbear, Chimera, and Giant Goat even willing to fight an adult dragon? They all have about an intelligence of 3 so they might follow the party to its lair but the moment a freaking dragon comes bursting out at them I would bet money on survival instincts telling them to run.
I would also explain the logistics nightmare that your players are asking of you. They brought up dragon age but I would mention to them at no point in any dragon age game did an army actually meaningfully help against a boss. At best they held of enemy mooks in a generic fight scene while the heroes fought the boss, or sent a couple specialists to help draw its attention. Which you can do. Have a few named people that feel truly indebted to them fight along side them (but explain to them that there is no plot armor, these friends of their's can and probably will lose their lives to square the debt). Another good way to still get assistance, without an army, is to think smaller. Some provide recon so your adventuresknow what to expect. Some provide basic supplies like food, water, etc. Others may give potions to bolster or heal the adventures in their time of need. Some could lure the dragon out of its lair so it doesn't have lair actions. And one could launch an ambush, potentially knocking the dragon prone for a round with a trap like a net or boulders before fleeing. Also like I mentioned earlier in having those particularly indebted to them join for support. This would still give them the grand epic battle, let them see old friends, and show them that actions mattered without the clunky messiness of an army mucking up the narrative.
Maybe the dragon has spies/traitors in the player's army of "allies". One Raistlan can ruin your whole day.
Perhaps gods/fiends notice and intervene. Perhaps the very fabric of time and space are torn asunder, landing the party in a strange and hostile realm. Possibly without a favored item or two that sadly was destroyed in transit.....
One suggestion, have the dragon infuse the area with its magic, make the dragons regional area now treated as it’s lair then have it run and hide in the several miles of play area every 6 seconds downing one of the army members… or even just allow the regional effects to rain example a red dragon creates rifts to the elemental plane of fire, a green dragon controls all the birds, rodents, a black dragon has poisoned the water sources ect
Hello-
I am in a bit of a GM pickle and seeking advice on the matter of my game. PCs have adventured the land, and with each town or group they helped out have made several friends loyal to the PCs. Now, the PCs are going against an adult dragon.
They want to have each town or group send an army as their payment for helping the towns and groups out - they have a gnome kingdom, the Lord's Alliance, the Zhents, wererats, a lodge of hunters, a tribe of goblins, myconids, a Chimera, Owlbear, and giant goat.
D&D is horrible and does not have rules for large-scale combat - and the dragon is one foe with the PCs wanting to mobilize an army against it. The problem is how do I stop this? I told them D&D is not really an army game and taking the dragon on is the job of their party.
In response, the players protested, "so everything we did was for nothing?" They went on to list the number of reasons they should have an army - something like Dragon Age. But that is not D&D, it's a video game.
Without taking away their player agency, how can I let the PC's "army" take on the dragon designed for adventurers, or let the army get involved in the combat? I don't want this to be, "The DM said so!" type of situation. Players want their ideas to happen, but I just don't know how to run something like this in D&D.
How can I run something that makes them happy, involves their "army" in the dragon battle, and make it reasonable for the PCs to partake in? The only thing I can think of is narrate the whole thing - an army takes down an adult dragon. You win, move on to next campaign. yay...(very disappointed DM)
BTW - I *hate* current video games, and have never played anything since Okami with the PS2. So I don't know everything about Dragon Age, just watched YouTube videos on it. I guess an army fights the dragon with you.
As the armies approach the dragon's lair, the dragon can easily fly up high and just strafe the army with it's breath. There will no longer be an army, and the morale of the survivors will be massively reduced - some fleeing in terror.
Any member of a town militia probably won't be too happy if they are asked to face a dragon - dragons are really scary!
If the army does get close, how are they going to resist against the adult dragon's frightful presence?
If armies worked against dragons, there would be no dragons left in the world.
All the NPCs will most likely have heard stories of the more recent dragon attacks that have occurred by various different dragons.
The way 5th edition is structured, a normal dragon can't really beat an army in an up-front battle (a shadow dragon might...), so it has to rely on lairs that are hard to find and/or reach ("Most chromatic dragon lairs are hidden in dangerous and remote locations to prevent all but the most audacious mortals from reaching them"), and the regional effects of a lair will make naturally difficult terrain even worse. Natural obstacles (cliffs, etc) that barely slow down a high level party are going to be nearly impassible for an army.
That said, you may have already established where the dragon is, and if it's somewhere accessible, the PCs taking an army there seems reasonable enough. However, bear in mind that a dragon put a lair somewhere accessible probably had a reason to think it was safe, such as a friendly army protecting the location, and there's no realistic way for an army to sneak up on a dragon; the dragon's going to avoid the army and probably just go around and lay waste to their homes.
However, if your players really want to use an army, the easiest way to give them what they want without it being a boring 'and then the army shoots the dragon and it dies' scenario is to give a dragon an army of its own. A party of PCs can reasonably sneak past all that stuff, maybe getting into a couple skirmishes with patrols, but an army is going to get everything at once. Then just handwave army vs army while you run PCs vs dragon.
Have you watched The Legend of Vox Machina?
There is a scene in episode 2 where a dragon decimates an army. This is what you should be aiming for.
The PCs are making a terrible mistake, and it will cost them greatly. I don't know what level the PCs are, but since it's an adult dragon its CR will be around 13-17 and so I'm guessing the PCs are somewhere between level 9 and level 12. These allies needed the PCs help before: they don't have hundreds of warriors at their beck and call who can go off leaving their own lands unprotected. So let's say that they can send 20 warriors each? If the PCs argue they should get more, then they can just be told No. But I'll deal with that later on.
Let's assume an Adult Green Dragon (CR15, with an Intelligence of 18). The dragon swoops down towards the army while its travelling, or maybe bursts up from the water around its lair (sub in whatever terrain type the dragon favors so it surprises them) and unleashes its breath weapon attack. That's 56 (16d6) damage on everything within a 60 foot cone. Everything that the PCs have brought with them that's in that area dies. Goblins, 7hp. Human knights and their noble leader, dead. The owlbear has 59hp but will die on a marginally better than average roll. Wererats, myconids, hunters, they're all going to die. These creatures simply cannot provide useful help because they're all dead.
After the first breath weapon, the dragon uses the rest of its movement to dive under water, fly into a cave, or otherwise escape line of sight so that it can't be peppered with arrows or even attacked by the PCs. Ensure that it attacks at night, so that it has Darkvision and many enemies don't. Better yet, kill them off while they're sleeping. Even with sentries, there is no real way for them to detect a dragon dive bombing them from a cloudy, pitch black sky in the wilderness. The dragon will Surprise the army, deal massive damage...
And then the rest of the army run for it. The army are not under the PCs direct control. Seeing the absolute devastation and impossibility of surviving a hit, PCs would run; so too will the NPCs. One or two good breath weapon attack passes, and the army is going to scatter to the wind. Whatever debt they feel they owed, short of being threatened with death, they are not charging into that. No freaking chance.
The dragon is Intelligence 18. It will hit and run. Moreover, armies are slow. An army moves 8 to 10 miles per day. It needs a substantial train of wagons carrying all the food, tents, and other gear that they need. The dragon can hit the wagons first if you like, leading to the army having no food resources and growing weak. That's what I'd do as a dragon faced with an army.
Moreover, the dragon is very fast. Faced with an army approaching, why not have it go and gather aid? Dragons are territorial, but what if it enlists that tribe of Stone Giants who will also feel threatened by this little army? Does the dragon already have a cult of lizardfolk who worship it as a god?
How else can the super smart dragon use terrain to its advantage? Start an avalanche when they're on a mountain trail. Lure them into a quagmire. The army is slow, ponderous and obvious. The dragon is fast, cunning and ruthless. It has all the tools it needs to destroy them while they're on the move.
Let the players build their army, and then show them exactly why armies of low level creatures do not mess with a dragon.
Oh, and double/triple its hit points if it's supposed to be a boss - DnD5e monsters all have shockingly low hit points. I do that for most monster of CR6 and higher as a matter of course just so that fights aren't over in 1-2 turns.
Riffing off Sanvael:
Logistics of assembling then moving an army, plus attacks of attrition (heck have the attacks start before the army is even "united" ... some units never show up because they got cooked, Dragon has nothing but time while the PC play big war map), not to mention the boondoggle of trying to maneuver an army (and this actually isn't a "combined arms" force, but coalition that has never fought in this fashion before, they'll be tripping over each other) up to the dragon's lair. It's going to be largely a slaughter and route till the PCs realize what they really need is a small team of highly skilled ... oh wait, that was them.
And let's not even start with the recrimination and general enmity and ill-will the PCs have now built among their former allied powers after the party's grand army misadventure destabilizes regional security for maybe a generation ... the hoard's largely going to go to reparations, and the party may still be exiled in disgrace.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
There are two approaches you can take with the party.
First explain the mechanics of D&D 5E, how critical hits work and explain to them that if they have 100 archers in each of the 5 humanoid type armies, that's 500 bows, of which 5 percent will hit as critical hits meaning the dragon will take 25 critical hits per turn before it gets into fear range. So, lets say they are all Dex 10, so (2d8) * 25 * .5 = 200 damage done on average in the first turn, not counting 19's that will kill the dragon in one turn. If it is an adult red dragon, it would have 56 hit points. Now ask the party, if the dragon knew that was coming, as old as it was, would it simply stand up to let you players roll the critical hits and die or would he simply flee and you'll never get to fight him with your army in the first place? Furthermore, is that how you want to go for the final battle? If the players say yes they want that, I'd give them exactly this fight they win, I'd say thank you for them playing and drop them. I truly hate players who behave like this frankly, they don't want to play the game they want to have no chance at death, they just want to win no matter what. They could also try sneaking in, poisoning the dragon or stealing something of worth rather than throwing overwhelming numbers.
Second explain to compensate for this vastly overwhelming force, the dragons lair will be quite upgraded. He will have a decent size defense force and a very good chance of winning, otherwise if he saw that force, he'd collapse his lair and fly off and choose not to fight. Explain to the players each one will have to roll for each 100 and keep track of their rolls. You expect them to pay attention during the session and deal with the 10 to 15 minute turns until the army is worn down. They want that mess, explain how its going to play out. If you want to reduce it down to smaller numbers you can do that as well, but if its large town, they are going to balk from the sounds of the players you have now. Even then, it doesn't matter the town owes them, its highly unlikely that CR 0 humanoids will go into a dragons lair to fight, they aren't heroes. The party is heroes, heroes go out and slays dragons, not a conscript with a chain shirt, a mace and a light crossbow. I always set up dragon fights to be minimum a Hard fight by CR if the party has went through the lair with the daily XP budget taken into account. So if they are a CR 80 group with that many men, they'll be fighting a CR 100 with his allies.
Frankly no town would risk pissing off an adult red dragon and have it be traced back to them. At best give them maybe one representative from each village and give the dragon a good chance of recognizing what village they are from. If the dragon can escape, have the dragon attack the town it recognized and lay waste. Perhaps the players are in town to help or they realized what would happen. Dragons have escape plans, especially adult dragons, they don't grow that old if they are stupid.
The dragon also doesn't have to be alone either. The dragon could be a female red with about 5 adult red male dragons fighting to mate with her as the army approaches. If they have 500 archers, its now a fair fight with the males going suicidal to prove they are the strongest to mate with her. Now they have to figure out how to deal with the horde of horny red dragons and an Army that will most likely be in rout plus the female red dragon will know the party tried to kill her and the audacity while she was in her mating cycle, something must be done about the party now.
Give the dragon an army of its own. The PC’s friends have to fight that army as a distraction while the party goes to fight the dragon. They maybe have to pick through some smaller monsters on the way.
Occasionally, you narrate what’s happening in the big battle.
dragons are extremely powerful creatures will AOE attacks. if you dont want them to have an army for the fight, have the dragon decimate a large amount of their army with its breath weapon and make the rest run away in terror. then they have an angry dragon stating at their command tent. good luck running or reorganizing.
Storm Kings Thunder Spoilers ahead
When I ran Storm King's a few years ago my party failed to stop Imyrith at the kingdom of the storm giant's and so had to pursue Imyrith to her lair to slay her there. We are talking about a named legendary dragon, in her own lair. As the DM, I gave the party a choice: They could rally their previous favors and faction connections to create a strike force or try to sucker punch the dragon as fast as possible. If they chose to rally their forces, the dragon would have an equal time to prepare for their approach. On my end the encounter didn't change at all, just the mode of approach. If the party had arrived alone, I would have described them fighting through the terrain effects until arriving at the lairs entrance. Because the party chose to rally an army, when they arrived at the patch of desert holding the dragon's lair there were hordes of enemies lying in wait hidden in the sandstorm. I described how the advancing force arranged themselves, gave each faction/group a specific role to play in the battle, and then described how the army was able to carve a path to the dungeon entrance. The party made a few fluff rolls to help inspire/conduct their friends, but once they arrived at the dragon's lair the encounter was exactly the same as written in the book. The only difference was the din of battle outside, which helped serve as a reminder of the stakes.
tl;dr Let them have their army, ham it up and describe an epic battle, but don't bother trying to simulate it with dice. Your goal is to help them feel like their choices helped shape the story, but the actual fight with the dragon can go as originally planned.
Let the army help the PCs with mundane things. Let it eliminate some or all of the resource-draining encounters on the way to the dragon.
They encounter a ravine? A group of soldiers shop down some trees and build a bridge. Now the PCs can cross without having to use spell slots or item charges on things like flying.
They stop to camp. One group of soldiers pitches tents and another cooks food. The PCs can spend all their energy preparing to fight. Perhaps the good food and quiet sleep gives them an inspiration to use the next day?
The dragons minions swarm the camp. The soldiers deal with the atack, sparing the PCs from spending more spell slots or item charges.
But when its time to face the dragon, the soldiers make it clear. "We got you this far, heroes, but its your journey and your journey alone from here. May the blessings of the gods go with you. We'll be here when you return.
The problem with 5E is if the players has even a 1/3rd of their resources a hard encounter is a guaranteed win. They have to be drained enough that a hard encounter is actually a hard encounter. The encounter would have to be set up to drain their resources down to at least be at the third.
That's mostly just a problem with terminology. Players aren't supposed to know that the DMG calls a given encounter 'hard', so if you just relabeled the columns to provide less confusing DM advice it would solve things.
You could have the pcs and a few other members of the army get into the lair, then something blocks the way for the rest to get in, and the dragon confronts the players, giving them no option except to fight it without the army then maybe if the battle seems lost/almost won the army finds a way in to help finish the fight.
or some variation of that.
Hollow unbreakable arrows are the most OP common magic item, and my current method of coming up with insane combat shenanigans.
if you make a steel pipe with one end closed and a nozzle on the other, you can enlarge it, fill with any liquid, and then drop concentration, creating a high pressure squirt gun. (or a pipe bomb, depending if it holds)
What was the dragon doing while the party was creating alliances, just sleeping on its hoard?
As Xalthu said, the dragon should have an army of its own. Dragons are powerful, influential, manipulative. They gather cults and other followers around them and they gather information. The dragon should know all about the gathering army and be forming a force to meet it. The PC's army is the price of admission to even get to the dragon.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Armies are not designed to fight dragons without casualties. While an army could, by D&D rules, eventually defeat a dragon if it was prevented from flying, it would be unlikely that an army would meaningfully contribute to a dragon fighting optimally. Let's break it down by faction:
Gnomes: Gnomes have some spellcasters, who might be able to contribute a bit. However, gnomes, being small creatures, can only use non-heavy weapons, which basically limits them to shortbows. Unless they have creatures who ignore range increments, they'd be rolling at disadvantage, and against a dragon, low CR gnomes would have pretty abysmal chances to hit. Assuming that the gnomes send a handful of fighters, and ten percent can use cantrips or first level spells and forty percent are proficient archers, you only have maybe a few that could even damage the dragon before it gets into fear aura range. They might save against the fear effect, but without ranged options that reach the dragon from outside its fear aura without disadvantage on the roll, they will score a few scarce hits and do not a lot of damage. Again, consider this: the scale of what the heroes did must justify risking that all the people they send end up dead, since they are not particularly good at dragon slaying because of their small size and restricted range.
The Lord's Alliance/Zhents: Humans fare a bit better because of longbows. Their extreme range actually gives them several turns, even with disadvantage, before they come into the dragon's range and they can even, at maximum range, hit the dragon before being affected by its fear effect. However, not all humans are proficient in longbows, the Zhents and the Lord's Alliance do not get along well, and neither side is willing to send troops into a meat grinder- a dragon will inflict heavy casualties on even knights and soldiers. The Zhents might be able to provide some indirect assistance with recon and support, and the Lord's Alliance can similarly provide a few specialists, but I would expect that it would be far from an army.
Wererats: Ineffective against a dragon at range, though actually surprisingly effective up close (until the dragon's breath comes into play, that is). They might be able to strike the dragon while it's in its lair and wound it, but I wouldn't expect them to commit particularly hard- unless you've reflavored them, wererats are pretty skittish and wouldn't fight a dragon without an unfair advantage.
Myconids: No ranged options, probably poor synergy with other allied forces, can't maneuver or fight effectively in sunlight. Unless they happen to have a tunnel into the dragon's lair, they're next to worthless here. Even their strongest option, their spores, are too weak to affect an adult or ancient dragon with its high constitution saves.
Goblins: Unless you've reflavored them, goblins are not known for great combat morale or organization. They might be, at least for the more reckless ones, willing to attack a dragon, but they'd likely fight ineffectively, since they don't have great ranged options to deal with a dragon and rely on trickery and ambushes to defeat larger creatures, something which dragons usually outwit or avoid.
Hunters: Actually probably the best bet that they have, because archers with longbows are the optimal way for low CR creatures to fight dragons. However, most hunting lodges could only spare a few experienced hunters to fight a dragon, unless they specialize in hunting monsters.
Chimera: This list of things they've helped that they can call a favor in from is getting a bit... eclectic. At least they're not murder hobos, right? The chimera might actually be a good addition, though admittedly it will likely get killed off. It's breath weapon is not likely to really bother the dragon, but it can fly and make several attacks, so it can at least help. That would be more manageable on your end, too- one chimera is less disruptive to the flow of the session than a human army.
Owlbear/Giant Goat: Not really going to do much. Unless serving as a steed for a party member, their contribution would be getting cheesed by flight.
The Dragon: I think it's worth reflecting on this, because it explains why the party won't get as much assistance as they might feel entitled to. Depending on the type of dragon you're running, they have various ways of dealing with threats. They can use their lairs as chokepoints, scything down swarms of small, low durability creatures with their breath weapons and limiting the number of attackers to their advantage, then withdraw and recover when they become overwhelmed. They can strafe maneuvering forces approaching their lair from the air, destroying with impunity any forces without ranged protection (so all your gnomes would be dead on the way there, most likely). Any creature without ranged options is likely to find itself completely worthless in the open, and a full army can't move stealthily enough (even with amazing rolls) to sneak up on an actively patrolling dragon- you have to try pretty hard to get concealment from every angle, especially while moving. A dragon whose lair hasn't been discovered can maneuver unexpectedly, using mountaintops and other inaccessible areas to rest without having the risk of being ambushed by traditional armies. If the dragon is willing to abandon its lair, it can simply fly elsewhere for a bit and return later- none of the creatures listed above besides the chimera, which is not close to a match to a dragon, have reliable flight across their forces. Obviously, the party is welcome to call in favors, but no one is going to be rushing to send an army on what is mostly a suicide mission. There are certainly factions and groups that are reasonably equipped to fight dragons, but none of them are the ones your party has attempted to recruit.
If the party insists, cashing in favors and forcing the hands of their connections, it would be easy for the dragon to fight strategically- these groups are likely going to coordinate poorly, and they'll get picked off, suffer morale failures, and withdraw unless the party themselves directly intervene. A good way to play this out would be an attack on an army camp at night- depending on the dragon's breath weapon type, it could easily fly in, strafe several tents and destroying, setting ablaze, melting, freezing, killing etc. the contents, and then fly away. The army maneuvers to the dragon's lair, only for it to have set a trap using the surrounding terrain (and, if applicable, its lair features) to inflict heavy damage and escape to wage more war. If the party's objective is to kill the dragon (and not drive it off or loot its lair), the dragon could simply fight a war of attrition- they're intelligent creatures, and while I wouldn't encourage you to ignore the flaws of dragons (especially their pride) they are also cunning, devious, and malevolent. Even a proud dragon might find more joy in harassing a retreating column of troops than in honest battle.
Finally, if the party really insists on having the climactic battle having allies with them, and they manage to address the concerns somehow, you can simply use a stronger dragon statblock, or modify it with more crowd control, to inflict heavy casualties on their allies. If there are any NPCs who might be involved that the party would like to protect, this would be a good time to get them involved- they might be fine sending an army of faceless minions to their deaths, but when the friendly hunter that the party worked with in the past gets hit with 18d6 fire damage, that's a very different story. Do be careful with balance here- you're not trying to punish your players for wanting an army, just demonstrating the consequences of having combatants who aren't really prepared for the threat get involved. You might not need to tweak anything at all- myconids, for example, just get destroyed by dragons. Finally, if the party just sends their army to do the fighting, have the dragon use its tricks and escape after inflicting heavy casualties. If the party had a strong army to begin with, having heavy loses and crushed morale will make all but the most stalwart allies (ones you could work into a climactic battle) retreat.
It's also worth asking if this is the *end* of the campaign or just part of a continuing campaign. If the party ever intends to cash in favors with these factions again, sending hundreds of their troops to die fighting a dragon is going to be a real sticking point in future negotiations.
The one thing I would absolutely encourage against is just saying no entirely (though you can certainly say that they only receive a few specialists from each faction instead of a full army, bonus points for sending NPCs they already know) or hand-waving away the army entirely once they have it. They should be able to call on their allies if they want, but you should convey in your response that an army is ill suited to fight a dragon, and that the people they're asking for assistance know this. Also make sure that the dragon reacts to their decisions instead of just waiting until they reach their lair. A night time attack on the army's camp is an almost certain way to both raise the emotional stakes and investment in killing the dragon, but also justify why you might have factions not send a full army- because it's exactly what they would be afraid of and expect. If there are ways to have these factions assist without sending troops, that could also be another way- perhaps a group of goblins provide a distraction, luring the dragon away from its lair so the party can set an ambush, or the Lord's Alliance provides some scouting to let the party know what the dragon is up to while they approach. There are plenty of options, shy of sending entire armies, that the party can call in past favors *without* resulting in tossing a thousand miniatures on a map against one big dragon and you can reward them for their past endeavors without ruining the cinematic encounter you have planned.
With an army you would also likely use the Handling Mobs rules, which removes the concept of criticals in order to simplify the damage that a large mob will inflict.
A bit more context may help us provide more precise answers. What type of dragon is it and is it male or female? Is this dragon the big bad of your campaign or just one more threat and how urgent is dealing with it? How big is your party and what level are they? How strong are the bonds that tie their potential allies to them?
The dragons type and gender tells us how s/he's likely would deal with the threat of the allies. Reds are more likely to attack directly(possibly the city's, towns, villages, while they're still preparing) while a green will likely be sneakier(sowing distrust among factions, poisoning water supplies, even trying to lure the potential allies to the dragon's side). A female could very well have a mate (or mates) that react poorly to an army coming to kill them. (A male could also have a female mate, perhaps even one with eggs to protect)
The threat of urgency plays a big role in things to. Is this the final battle or will those allies be better held in reserve? Is this dragon chilling in its lair or is it actively attacking things? What did it do to attract your party's ire? This will determine how appropriate it is to wait the months it would take to probably raise the army or if they would be better off with a strike team.
The party size and strength are next. Are they a 3 or 4 man band that fear a dragon would mean a high risk of death? Are they 5 or 6 in which case why are they needing an army at all? I assume they're decently leveled with all the allies they've managed to gain so this seems more of a style request than a challenge one.
How close are they to these allies? Saving a town or village is all well and good, but those allies may be reluctant to suddenly have all those people the adventures saved killed fighting a dragon. Also is an Owlbear, Chimera, and Giant Goat even willing to fight an adult dragon? They all have about an intelligence of 3 so they might follow the party to its lair but the moment a freaking dragon comes bursting out at them I would bet money on survival instincts telling them to run.
I would also explain the logistics nightmare that your players are asking of you. They brought up dragon age but I would mention to them at no point in any dragon age game did an army actually meaningfully help against a boss. At best they held of enemy mooks in a generic fight scene while the heroes fought the boss, or sent a couple specialists to help draw its attention. Which you can do. Have a few named people that feel truly indebted to them fight along side them (but explain to them that there is no plot armor, these friends of their's can and probably will lose their lives to square the debt). Another good way to still get assistance, without an army, is to think smaller. Some provide recon so your adventuresknow what to expect. Some provide basic supplies like food, water, etc. Others may give potions to bolster or heal the adventures in their time of need. Some could lure the dragon out of its lair so it doesn't have lair actions. And one could launch an ambush, potentially knocking the dragon prone for a round with a trap like a net or boulders before fleeing. Also like I mentioned earlier in having those particularly indebted to them join for support. This would still give them the grand epic battle, let them see old friends, and show them that actions mattered without the clunky messiness of an army mucking up the narrative.
Maybe the dragon has spies/traitors in the player's army of "allies". One Raistlan can ruin your whole day.
Perhaps gods/fiends notice and intervene. Perhaps the very fabric of time and space are torn asunder, landing the party in a strange and hostile realm. Possibly without a favored item or two that sadly was destroyed in transit.....
One suggestion, have the dragon infuse the area with its magic, make the dragons regional area now treated as it’s lair then have it run and hide in the several miles of play area every 6 seconds downing one of the army members… or even just allow the regional effects to rain example a red dragon creates rifts to the elemental plane of fire, a green dragon controls all the birds, rodents, a black dragon has poisoned the water sources ect