Full disclaimer: I'm not a DM yet, but my group is talking about letting me DM sometime soon, so I wanted to ask about boss fights and when to have them. I'm going to give an example in the form of one of the bad guys I came up with called Count Majen, who I eventually decided to make level five as an early game fight. Roughly what level should four players fight him for a fair challenge? Now, I will link to his character sheet for more context, and I know this question will have no solid answer, but I felt the need to ask so I can get some ideas about game balance, as I am very much new and trying to get my basic campaign structure down. Here is his character sheet for more context, and so I can get some more informed answers on when I should have him come in as a boss: https://www.dndbeyond.com/characters/97398241.
Is your party facing Count Majen alone - or is he with a bunch of henchmen and underlings?
He's a bard, so ... well, solo he'd be pretty easy to bring down. I mean, comparatively. Even for low levels. Also, he seems primarily to be a manipulator (very high Deceive, for instance), so maybe he wouldn't welcome a direct confrontation. Btw. if he's a Count, maybe he can afford some sort of armor. AC11 isn't going to serve him very well.
Anyways, if he were my NPC, he'd be hiding behind walls of physical and especially non-physical protection. A stronghold-like villa, with armed guards, but also with active protection from the city guard, maybe some sort of 'above the law' noble shenanigans - and if ever confronted, he'd surrender immediately, knowing full well that he'd be released from jail within the hour, and that the PC's would have to give some sort of embarrasing public apology. To which he'd smugly reply that 'all is forgiven, we all make mistakes.' Then, of course, send assassins.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Very true, he probably wouldn’t be the type to get his hands dirty unless he had no other option. I’ll try and keep this in mind because your ideas are very good for him.
Ok, so I’ll probably have to bump his stats up a bit (within reason, of course), since the plan is to have the party do something for him before they realize he’s evil, so by that time they’d probably be level 2 or so. Therefore, if he HAS to fight, I’d like him to stand more of a chance. Also I’m just thinking of a basic guard stat block for his minions for simplicity’s sake. Again, this is only for if he ABSOLUTELY has to fight.
If your boss monster is a Lore Bard, you might as well bump him up to level 6. That way, you get access to Magical Secrets, meaning picking any 2 spells of 3rd level or lower from any class. Now you have somebody who can mess with the PCs during the fight and not just before the fight. I also see you picked Glyph of Warding. It's a great choice - if you expect the PCs to only fight him at his headquarters. In which case, design several traps using the Glyph. A manipulator likes to fight weakened opponents, maybe even opponents that are divided amongst themselves. A boss like this would not be caught out in the open without hefty protection of some kind in terms of bodyguards, archers, etc. and/or diplomatic immunity unless he was pretty sure he has a lot more to gain by exposing himself to attack than by being hidden.
I’ll be completely honest, I only chose bard as his class to try it out, and I’m very pleased with the results. I had no idea about Magical Secrets until your post, so thank you so much for bringing this to my attention! I’m surprised with just how many options are available with this, assuming you have the source books for them. Also, yes, the plan is to have the fight happen in his base of operations, hence the Glyph of Warding, though I will certainly make sure to have him guarded in case of a surprise attack. Honestly, my goal changed over making him to make his fight more difficult based off of how he can mess with the players, as opposed to simply having high stats. I will certainly keep your advice in mind as I bump up his level to increase the relative challenge of fighting him.
I'm kind of stunned no one has told you this yet, but D&D is not made for PvP and building PCs as enemies for a party does not typically go well and is certainly not recommended for a new DM who is learning the game.
PCs have way more options, features, and choices than a DM typically needs for something that will be played for one battle (and recurring villains can be adjusted between appearancesif its not just one battle). Their HP and defenses are also different because PCs are not designed to be able to handle 5 characters wailing on it at the same time.
There are tons of humanoid enemies available in the Monsters section. I highly recommend finding one of those at the appropriate CR and using that, or build off that basic stat bock if you want to add a few embellishments. As a bonus, you're not restricted by PC options or spell lists, so if you want him to have a cleric spell and a wizard spell, you can do that without Magical Secrets or multiclassing or any of that. Monsters can have whatever features you want them to have.
True, that could be the best course of action, as D&D typically isn't PvP. I suppose I went down this line of reason because of a tournament arc we had in one of our campaigns, which should have been a red flag because that was all 1v1. I'll take a look through the monster list I have to see if I can find anything. I'll probably have to make this homebrew instead since his battle style I'm going for is a little specific. I will probably keep the same spells for him since they worked well for how I imagine he would fight.
Is your party facing Count Majen alone - or is he with a bunch of henchmen and underlings?
He's a bard, so ... well, solo he'd be pretty easy to bring down. I mean, comparatively. Even for low levels. Also, he seems primarily to be a manipulator (very high Deceive, for instance), so maybe he wouldn't welcome a direct confrontation. Btw. if he's a Count, maybe he can afford some sort of armor. AC11 isn't going to serve him very well.
Anyways, if he were my NPC, he'd be hiding behind walls of physical and especially non-physical protection. A stronghold-like villa, with armed guards, but also with active protection from the city guard, maybe some sort of 'above the law' noble shenanigans - and if ever confronted, he'd surrender immediately, knowing full well that he'd be released from jail within the hour, and that the PC's would have to give some sort of embarrasing public apology. To which he'd smugly reply that 'all is forgiven, we all make mistakes.' Then, of course, send assassins.
he'd be easy to down even with mobs... its called focus fire and players are well known people to do it.
@SleepyTheCat
you have to understand that D&D doesn't have a aggro system, players do damn well what they want. if you want them to have a problem with him, you have to wittle their ressources first. thats the number 1 mistake everyone does. they send players with full blown capabilities against a bbeg that can't match them. so heres a few pointers to throw you into the right direction...
1) the game is designed to wittle the ressources of the players before a boss fight. so do just that, send them against minions and minions until they have about half their ressources and then send the boss. that way they will have a harder time and the boss will have an easier time. if the players absolutely want their maximum power, thats because they are afraid of losing. that is inconsequential in the end, the players will fight and they will have fun anyway.
2) strategies can blast away an encounter, plan for well known strats ! Focusing fire works both ways, if they can focus fire the bbeg, then the bbeg can focus fire on the tank and kill him. or focus on the healer and kill it. though if you are going the way of killing PCs,i suggest you have backup plans for their characters. exemple, have a demonic entity or celestial entity following them and use ressurection, but at a cost. usually a pact or something of the likes. that way players feel less cheated when they die. another well known strats is the nuclear holocaust. players blast in 1 single round their biggest spells at the bbeg to hope to down him during that first round. it leads to pretty boring boss fights fast. the way to diminish that is to give your bbeg some defensive abilities. this leads to point number 3.
3) do not hesitate to change the encounters on the fly. players don't know the extent of the bbeg or the mobs they are fighting... if they have it to easy to against AC, as long as they didn't yet figure out the AC. you can bump it up. health is one thing they surely dont know about, bump that as well. a rule for me is that boss fights usually have full health instead of median. so say my bbeg has 12d12+30 hit points... instead of going median like the book says, i usually starts him with full... so that would be... 12x12=144+30=174 hit points. the books usually go at the mid point of that. CR means nothing to strategies, so don't check them... use them as basic guidelines to know the basics of monsters fight... but don't get clogged into it.
4) CR are fine until power creeps happens... at level 3, level 5. levels where players gets powerfull abilities. i usually go with this type of equation... at level 5, players can take on about 3 levels above them. so a CR 8 monsters would be a challenge for them. lower then that depends on your play. so do not hesitate to bump AC/hp/ attack power. based on what you know of your players. use what you know instead of using an arbitrary system.
5) never plan for a boss fight bigger then 3 rounds... many people hope to get fights that last 5-10 rounds even... that wont ever happen ! players can dish out hundreds of hit points in damage in a single round so unless your boss fight has over 1000, it wont happen. nobody wants a sponge for a boss. thats boring as hell. so what can you do about this ? forget hit points entirely if need be... just decide yourself how long the fight will be, fake taking notes when they deal damage and just run the gauntlet until everyone is satisfyed. the major drawback of this is that if you fail to count correctly, you might be killing your party before the end. thats fine too though, because it might leads them onto a new adventure where they fear the bbeg more. thats an entirely good thing to do still. as long as you are prepared in case of Total Party Kill.
those are pretty much the things i watch for, my players knows im going strong against them, but they like it. if they dont always want hard fights, then send them easy minions fight once in a while and everything is fine.
DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
I'm kind of stunned no one has told you this yet, but D&D is not made for PvP and building PCs as enemies for a party does not typically go well and is certainly not recommended for a new DM who is learning the game.
PCs have way more options, features, and choices than a DM typically needs for something that will be played for one battle (and recurring villains can be adjusted between appearancesif its not just one battle). Their HP and defenses are also different because PCs are not designed to be able to handle 5 characters wailing on it at the same time.
There are tons of humanoid enemies available in the Monsters section. I highly recommend finding one of those at the appropriate CR and using that, or build off that basic stat bock if you want to add a few embellishments. As a bonus, you're not restricted by PC options or spell lists, so if you want him to have a cleric spell and a wizard spell, you can do that without Magical Secrets or multiclassing or any of that. Monsters can have whatever features you want them to have.
That's literally all I've ever done, and I've never had any issues with it.
I mean, occasionally there's a monster, too - but I'm quite serious, at least 90% of all my boss villains are humanoid characters with character sheets, full class details and so on (well, I'm not saying I necessarily flesh out the entire class, I can do a level 5 or 9 or 11 character from memory along quite well enough). And I have to say, I feel the game and the players deserve it. I feel it would be a massive let-down for me as a GM if the game ended with 'yea, and now you get to erode away at this giant hit point sponge to win the game.'
Not that I'm disparaging monsters. I use them all the time, they're just never what carries the plot. And I guess you could reasonably accuse me of always hatching plots that are in some measure political, and I guess that's not everyone's favourite cup of tea. But still, point is: You can easily use PC classed characters as villains, and I recommend it.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I have to say, I feel like keeping him as a standard character, while it would use up one of my six slots, is tempting since it would allow me to potentially flesh him out a bit more. Perhaps I'll rework the homebrew monster for the planned second form they will encounter later (long story, artifact corrupts him at some point, that kind of thing), assuming they don't just kill him outright.
Oh, I also wanted to say: I love that his 4th level spells are keyed towards escape - but I'd really recommend an AoE crowd control spell, too, either Stinking Cloud or Hypnotic Pattern.
Such spells do run the risk of winning a fight outright, if too many PC's fail their saves. But such is the life of an adventurer.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I decided to give him the former, but I'm torn about the other new spell I can give him (I bumped him up to level 12 for some higher HP). Specifically, I am torn between Eyebite for combat utility, and Guards and Wards for defensive utility.
Heh - so by now, he's more than twice the level you originally wanted? I'd personally warn against making him an HP sponge. That only makes fights less interesting. Rather, give him ways to migitate, there are some neat reaction spells (like Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs) that will work nicely to avoid damage. Also, here's what I'd do:
For the first encounter, have the players burst into his house - find a way to aggravate them enough. Also, Count Majen needs to know they're coming. Let things get to that moment just before the big fight - the villain monologue moment. And just before rolling initiative, have a large group of bribed constables (who were already waiting in the next room) burst in, blowing whistles and brandishing their symbols of office; badges and cudgels. Haul the PC's off to jail for breaking and entering.
They'll hate that, but let it be just a humiliation - not an actual jail sentence.
Next encounter, let the players succeed, but Majen escapes - with invisibility, maybe do something annoying like have the PC's witness the door to the secret escape route opening, but really Majen just opens it, then walks out the front door and hails a carriage. Of course for this to work, the PC's better not have a way to see invisible.
Finally, third encounter is the real fight.
Also, keep him level 7 or 8, so you don't have to wait forever for the PC's to level up enough that you can use him =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I'm kind of stunned no one has told you this yet, but D&D is not made for PvP and building PCs as enemies for a party does not typically go well and is certainly not recommended for a new DM who is learning the game.
PCs have way more options, features, and choices than a DM typically needs for something that will be played for one battle (and recurring villains can be adjusted between appearancesif its not just one battle). Their HP and defenses are also different because PCs are not designed to be able to handle 5 characters wailing on it at the same time.
There are tons of humanoid enemies available in the Monsters section. I highly recommend finding one of those at the appropriate CR and using that, or build off that basic stat bock if you want to add a few embellishments. As a bonus, you're not restricted by PC options or spell lists, so if you want him to have a cleric spell and a wizard spell, you can do that without Magical Secrets or multiclassing or any of that. Monsters can have whatever features you want them to have.
That's literally all I've ever done, and I've never had any issues with it.
I mean, occasionally there's a monster, too - but I'm quite serious, at least 90% of all my boss villains are humanoid characters with character sheets, full class details and so on (well, I'm not saying I necessarily flesh out the entire class, I can do a level 5 or 9 or 11 character from memory along quite well enough). And I have to say, I feel the game and the players deserve it. I feel it would be a massive let-down for me as a GM if the game ended with 'yea, and now you get to erode away at this giant hit point sponge to win the game.'
Not that I'm disparaging monsters. I use them all the time, they're just never what carries the plot. And I guess you could reasonably accuse me of always hatching plots that are in some measure political, and I guess that's not everyone's favourite cup of tea. But still, point is: You can easily use PC classed characters as villains, and I recommend it.
its not that it can't be done... it is with the fact that player characters don't have much Hit points and player charcaters can pretty much dish out 100 points of damage in a single round. there is also the fact that say, you take a mirror image of the current party, you end up being a single person controlling an entire party while the other group is 5 people controlling each individual. meaning that in strategic situations, the single person wins because it can do whatever it has in mind while the others are stuck trying to convince others to go along with their plans. i do use often PC as monsters, but everytimes i do, my characters are either gonna get easily squished, or will easily dispatch the whole group. those are the main reasons why we are against doing so.
just imagine many scenarios and you get the pictures... in your cases, "political" scenarios, it is fine because you rarely ever have them fight. its either a question of army or minions, or just talking to them. in this case yes it all works out fine... but if you were to do the same in fights, blatant fights... you'd clearly see where the limits are for a PC.
another exemple of said problems during a fight... rogue uncanny dodge... he can do it once a round. as a reaction... but he's gonna get about 10 attacks coming his way ! sorry but that uncanny dodge is going to be very very useless in that situation. you can see this plague the players already, the barbarian fighting 10 mobs at a time... even with rage he's getting pummlled to the ground very fast. the same principles happens to any PC monsters you'll set. as the players will simply single him out.
i do use PC monsters often... but i dont use them for fights more then i use them to push the story forward by adding a group member to the party or having a mole in the party. everytimes it ended in a fight... even if there was numerous monsters and minions with that character... players would single him out, take him out and then finish the rest. it never would be a long fight... 1 or 2 turns and that is it.
overall, its not the PC that are really the problem, more then the dice themselves... this game is all about random rolls and fate to those who rolls them... in my case i either roll very high or very low... so either i tpk the group out of nowhere either i get killed without doing a thing... like my beholder final boss who was insta killed in 1 single turn ! or my player who never rolls below a 15 when he's playing melee fighters. but never seem to roll anything above 6 when playing casters. or that other players who is cursed and only ever roll well on the first use of a dice she bought, after that its always under 5...
if you count those things, then yes... usinga PC as a monster is a bad idea.
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DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
its not that it can't be done... it is with the fact that player characters don't have much Hit points and player charcaters can pretty much dish out 100 points of damage in a single round.
if you count those things, then yes... usinga PC as a monster is a bad idea.
At which level would this be, though? I don't think I've ever seen that.
My view: Having PC's fight HP sponges makes combat a dreary, dull slog through endless marshes of despair and desillusion. Bad idea.
And I'm not trying to be a jerk, here - I'm trying to show that either argument works for different contexts, and I've never, ever seen a 5e character above level ... 7, maybe 8.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
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Full disclaimer: I'm not a DM yet, but my group is talking about letting me DM sometime soon, so I wanted to ask about boss fights and when to have them. I'm going to give an example in the form of one of the bad guys I came up with called Count Majen, who I eventually decided to make level five as an early game fight. Roughly what level should four players fight him for a fair challenge? Now, I will link to his character sheet for more context, and I know this question will have no solid answer, but I felt the need to ask so I can get some ideas about game balance, as I am very much new and trying to get my basic campaign structure down. Here is his character sheet for more context, and so I can get some more informed answers on when I should have him come in as a boss: https://www.dndbeyond.com/characters/97398241.
Is your party facing Count Majen alone - or is he with a bunch of henchmen and underlings?
He's a bard, so ... well, solo he'd be pretty easy to bring down. I mean, comparatively. Even for low levels. Also, he seems primarily to be a manipulator (very high Deceive, for instance), so maybe he wouldn't welcome a direct confrontation. Btw. if he's a Count, maybe he can afford some sort of armor. AC11 isn't going to serve him very well.
Anyways, if he were my NPC, he'd be hiding behind walls of physical and especially non-physical protection. A stronghold-like villa, with armed guards, but also with active protection from the city guard, maybe some sort of 'above the law' noble shenanigans - and if ever confronted, he'd surrender immediately, knowing full well that he'd be released from jail within the hour, and that the PC's would have to give some sort of embarrasing public apology. To which he'd smugly reply that 'all is forgiven, we all make mistakes.' Then, of course, send assassins.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Very true, he probably wouldn’t be the type to get his hands dirty unless he had no other option. I’ll try and keep this in mind because your ideas are very good for him.
In raw combat, he's around CR 2, so he'd be a tough fight for level 1 PCs. If he's got minions, it depends on the capabilities of his minions.
Ok, so I’ll probably have to bump his stats up a bit (within reason, of course), since the plan is to have the party do something for him before they realize he’s evil, so by that time they’d probably be level 2 or so. Therefore, if he HAS to fight, I’d like him to stand more of a chance. Also I’m just thinking of a basic guard stat block for his minions for simplicity’s sake. Again, this is only for if he ABSOLUTELY has to fight.
If your boss monster is a Lore Bard, you might as well bump him up to level 6. That way, you get access to Magical Secrets, meaning picking any 2 spells of 3rd level or lower from any class. Now you have somebody who can mess with the PCs during the fight and not just before the fight. I also see you picked Glyph of Warding. It's a great choice - if you expect the PCs to only fight him at his headquarters. In which case, design several traps using the Glyph. A manipulator likes to fight weakened opponents, maybe even opponents that are divided amongst themselves. A boss like this would not be caught out in the open without hefty protection of some kind in terms of bodyguards, archers, etc. and/or diplomatic immunity unless he was pretty sure he has a lot more to gain by exposing himself to attack than by being hidden.
I’ll be completely honest, I only chose bard as his class to try it out, and I’m very pleased with the results. I had no idea about Magical Secrets until your post, so thank you so much for bringing this to my attention! I’m surprised with just how many options are available with this, assuming you have the source books for them. Also, yes, the plan is to have the fight happen in his base of operations, hence the Glyph of Warding, though I will certainly make sure to have him guarded in case of a surprise attack. Honestly, my goal changed over making him to make his fight more difficult based off of how he can mess with the players, as opposed to simply having high stats. I will certainly keep your advice in mind as I bump up his level to increase the relative challenge of fighting him.
I'm kind of stunned no one has told you this yet, but D&D is not made for PvP and building PCs as enemies for a party does not typically go well and is certainly not recommended for a new DM who is learning the game.
PCs have way more options, features, and choices than a DM typically needs for something that will be played for one battle (and recurring villains can be adjusted between appearancesif its not just one battle). Their HP and defenses are also different because PCs are not designed to be able to handle 5 characters wailing on it at the same time.
There are tons of humanoid enemies available in the Monsters section. I highly recommend finding one of those at the appropriate CR and using that, or build off that basic stat bock if you want to add a few embellishments. As a bonus, you're not restricted by PC options or spell lists, so if you want him to have a cleric spell and a wizard spell, you can do that without Magical Secrets or multiclassing or any of that. Monsters can have whatever features you want them to have.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
True, that could be the best course of action, as D&D typically isn't PvP. I suppose I went down this line of reason because of a tournament arc we had in one of our campaigns, which should have been a red flag because that was all 1v1. I'll take a look through the monster list I have to see if I can find anything. I'll probably have to make this homebrew instead since his battle style I'm going for is a little specific. I will probably keep the same spells for him since they worked well for how I imagine he would fight.
he'd be easy to down even with mobs... its called focus fire and players are well known people to do it.
@SleepyTheCat
you have to understand that D&D doesn't have a aggro system, players do damn well what they want. if you want them to have a problem with him, you have to wittle their ressources first. thats the number 1 mistake everyone does. they send players with full blown capabilities against a bbeg that can't match them. so heres a few pointers to throw you into the right direction...
1) the game is designed to wittle the ressources of the players before a boss fight. so do just that, send them against minions and minions until they have about half their ressources and then send the boss. that way they will have a harder time and the boss will have an easier time. if the players absolutely want their maximum power, thats because they are afraid of losing. that is inconsequential in the end, the players will fight and they will have fun anyway.
2) strategies can blast away an encounter, plan for well known strats !
Focusing fire works both ways, if they can focus fire the bbeg, then the bbeg can focus fire on the tank and kill him. or focus on the healer and kill it. though if you are going the way of killing PCs,i suggest you have backup plans for their characters. exemple, have a demonic entity or celestial entity following them and use ressurection, but at a cost. usually a pact or something of the likes. that way players feel less cheated when they die. another well known strats is the nuclear holocaust. players blast in 1 single round their biggest spells at the bbeg to hope to down him during that first round. it leads to pretty boring boss fights fast. the way to diminish that is to give your bbeg some defensive abilities. this leads to point number 3.
3) do not hesitate to change the encounters on the fly. players don't know the extent of the bbeg or the mobs they are fighting... if they have it to easy to against AC, as long as they didn't yet figure out the AC. you can bump it up. health is one thing they surely dont know about, bump that as well. a rule for me is that boss fights usually have full health instead of median. so say my bbeg has 12d12+30 hit points... instead of going median like the book says, i usually starts him with full... so that would be... 12x12=144+30=174 hit points. the books usually go at the mid point of that. CR means nothing to strategies, so don't check them... use them as basic guidelines to know the basics of monsters fight... but don't get clogged into it.
4) CR are fine until power creeps happens... at level 3, level 5. levels where players gets powerfull abilities. i usually go with this type of equation... at level 5, players can take on about 3 levels above them. so a CR 8 monsters would be a challenge for them. lower then that depends on your play. so do not hesitate to bump AC/hp/ attack power. based on what you know of your players. use what you know instead of using an arbitrary system.
5) never plan for a boss fight bigger then 3 rounds... many people hope to get fights that last 5-10 rounds even... that wont ever happen ! players can dish out hundreds of hit points in damage in a single round so unless your boss fight has over 1000, it wont happen. nobody wants a sponge for a boss. thats boring as hell. so what can you do about this ? forget hit points entirely if need be... just decide yourself how long the fight will be, fake taking notes when they deal damage and just run the gauntlet until everyone is satisfyed. the major drawback of this is that if you fail to count correctly, you might be killing your party before the end. thats fine too though, because it might leads them onto a new adventure where they fear the bbeg more. thats an entirely good thing to do still. as long as you are prepared in case of Total Party Kill.
those are pretty much the things i watch for, my players knows im going strong against them, but they like it. if they dont always want hard fights, then send them easy minions fight once in a while and everything is fine.
wish you luck on your adventures !
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Solid advice! I'll try and keep that in mind while I homebrew a statblock for him (I've decided to do that instead based off of a previous comment).
So, I decided to make Majen a homebrew monster after some feedback, and I would like people to potentially take a look at it and give me some feedback on it: https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/3432844-count-majen-8th-level-bard
That's literally all I've ever done, and I've never had any issues with it.
I mean, occasionally there's a monster, too - but I'm quite serious, at least 90% of all my boss villains are humanoid characters with character sheets, full class details and so on (well, I'm not saying I necessarily flesh out the entire class, I can do a level 5 or 9 or 11 character from memory along quite well enough). And I have to say, I feel the game and the players deserve it. I feel it would be a massive let-down for me as a GM if the game ended with 'yea, and now you get to erode away at this giant hit point sponge to win the game.'
Not that I'm disparaging monsters. I use them all the time, they're just never what carries the plot. And I guess you could reasonably accuse me of always hatching plots that are in some measure political, and I guess that's not everyone's favourite cup of tea. But still, point is: You can easily use PC classed characters as villains, and I recommend it.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I have to say, I feel like keeping him as a standard character, while it would use up one of my six slots, is tempting since it would allow me to potentially flesh him out a bit more. Perhaps I'll rework the homebrew monster for the planned second form they will encounter later (long story, artifact corrupts him at some point, that kind of thing), assuming they don't just kill him outright.
Oh, I also wanted to say: I love that his 4th level spells are keyed towards escape - but I'd really recommend an AoE crowd control spell, too, either Stinking Cloud or Hypnotic Pattern.
Such spells do run the risk of winning a fight outright, if too many PC's fail their saves. But such is the life of an adventurer.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I decided to give him the former, but I'm torn about the other new spell I can give him (I bumped him up to level 12 for some higher HP). Specifically, I am torn between Eyebite for combat utility, and Guards and Wards for defensive utility.
Heh - so by now, he's more than twice the level you originally wanted? I'd personally warn against making him an HP sponge. That only makes fights less interesting. Rather, give him ways to migitate, there are some neat reaction spells (like Shield, Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs) that will work nicely to avoid damage. Also, here's what I'd do:
For the first encounter, have the players burst into his house - find a way to aggravate them enough. Also, Count Majen needs to know they're coming. Let things get to that moment just before the big fight - the villain monologue moment. And just before rolling initiative, have a large group of bribed constables (who were already waiting in the next room) burst in, blowing whistles and brandishing their symbols of office; badges and cudgels. Haul the PC's off to jail for breaking and entering.
They'll hate that, but let it be just a humiliation - not an actual jail sentence.
Next encounter, let the players succeed, but Majen escapes - with invisibility, maybe do something annoying like have the PC's witness the door to the secret escape route opening, but really Majen just opens it, then walks out the front door and hails a carriage. Of course for this to work, the PC's better not have a way to see invisible.
Finally, third encounter is the real fight.
Also, keep him level 7 or 8, so you don't have to wait forever for the PC's to level up enough that you can use him =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
That sounds like a really good progression for him. I'll keep that in mind!
its not that it can't be done... it is with the fact that player characters don't have much Hit points and player charcaters can pretty much dish out 100 points of damage in a single round.
there is also the fact that say, you take a mirror image of the current party, you end up being a single person controlling an entire party while the other group is 5 people controlling each individual. meaning that in strategic situations, the single person wins because it can do whatever it has in mind while the others are stuck trying to convince others to go along with their plans. i do use often PC as monsters, but everytimes i do, my characters are either gonna get easily squished, or will easily dispatch the whole group. those are the main reasons why we are against doing so.
just imagine many scenarios and you get the pictures...
in your cases, "political" scenarios, it is fine because you rarely ever have them fight. its either a question of army or minions, or just talking to them. in this case yes it all works out fine... but if you were to do the same in fights, blatant fights... you'd clearly see where the limits are for a PC.
another exemple of said problems during a fight...
rogue uncanny dodge... he can do it once a round. as a reaction... but he's gonna get about 10 attacks coming his way !
sorry but that uncanny dodge is going to be very very useless in that situation. you can see this plague the players already, the barbarian fighting 10 mobs at a time... even with rage he's getting pummlled to the ground very fast. the same principles happens to any PC monsters you'll set. as the players will simply single him out.
i do use PC monsters often... but i dont use them for fights more then i use them to push the story forward by adding a group member to the party or having a mole in the party. everytimes it ended in a fight... even if there was numerous monsters and minions with that character... players would single him out, take him out and then finish the rest. it never would be a long fight... 1 or 2 turns and that is it.
overall, its not the PC that are really the problem, more then the dice themselves...
this game is all about random rolls and fate to those who rolls them...
in my case i either roll very high or very low... so either i tpk the group out of nowhere either i get killed without doing a thing... like my beholder final boss who was insta killed in 1 single turn ! or my player who never rolls below a 15 when he's playing melee fighters. but never seem to roll anything above 6 when playing casters. or that other players who is cursed and only ever roll well on the first use of a dice she bought, after that its always under 5...
if you count those things, then yes... usinga PC as a monster is a bad idea.
DM of two gaming groups.
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At which level would this be, though? I don't think I've ever seen that.
My view: Having PC's fight HP sponges makes combat a dreary, dull slog through endless marshes of despair and desillusion. Bad idea.
And I'm not trying to be a jerk, here - I'm trying to show that either argument works for different contexts, and I've never, ever seen a 5e character above level ... 7, maybe 8.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.