Had this come up in the middle of combat in our session and I nixed it in favor of moving the flow of combat forward rather than opening up a debate about rules and interpretation. I'm interested in the various tactics of other DMs to get other opinions.
Scenario: Wizard is using Arcane Eye to scoot the "eye" sensor under the gap of a closed door in order to scope out the next room and sees a creature. Wizard wants to target the creature and cast Suggestion but he's only within 30ft (range of suggestion) if we're counting range as a straight line through a wall.
Reasons I'd rule the above doesn't work:
The wizard caster is the point of origin to determine range of suggestion, not the sensor for arcane eye. So the wizard was outside of the needed range here and can't cast through an obstruction to make that range work.
The wall and closed door are obstructions the suggestion spell can't travel through from how I'm interpreting the targeting & clear path rules.
Arcane eye has manifested a mobile sensor which can move through spaces as small as 1 inch in diameter. The fact that the arcane eye can get through a gap doesn't change that a closed door is an obstruction to targeting.
Most obvious, the target has to hear and understand the caster of suggestion in order for the spell to work. I'd say that's not a true possibility behind a wall and closed door.
The way in which I'm thinking about letting this succeed:
I do think the "visual information" received via Arcane Eye counts as the criteria of being able to "see" a target just to establish that.
The door gets opened, removing it as an obstruction and making it so the target can hear the caster as per the spell requirement.
The caster (as the point of origin) moves closer so that they can be within range of the target by counting out the 30 ft between them and the target as if they were walking to the target. In other words, the clear path is between caster & target same as a clear path of movement would indicate and does not need to be a straight line unless specifically stated by the spell description. (we use a grid so counting squares makes this easy)
So this sums up as they can see the target through the arcane eye and they can cast suggestion which has a "clear path" around the wall, through the door, into the room to get to the target since the target can hear their voice through the open door.
Now comes the trickier part, how this applies to other spell combinations. Great example, Fireball. Nothing in the fireball spell states it travels a straight line, just that the bead travels from your finger to a point you designate within range. If you can see a point around a corner through a magical sensor, can you curve the fireball around a corner to reach that point? How about curving it through multiple open doors in a building to get there if its still within range?
Thoughts from other DMs on the above or ways you've handled this in your games? I wanted to see how others have handled this considering this seems to open up a well of unintended consequences that kind of have similar applications based on scrying sensors helping as a sight component and spells not needing a straight path as long as it's a clear path.
To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover.
If you place an area of effect at a point that you can't see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of that obstruction.
A wall like you describe grants total cover, so they would not have a clear path between the spellcaster and the target.
Edit: this is not necessarily true, I think it depends on the spell, see later post.
As Houligan pointed out you need a direct line between you and the target. By this a creature with total cover (closed doors count) cannot be targeted. So any spell that targets another creature cannot be cast, like Suggestion.
Misty Step would work though: since the target is actually "you" not the desired space and you can see that space through the Arcane Eye (or Clairvoyance, or Scrying or Find Familiar...).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
So the clear path = a straight line between caster and target and not just any clear path as long as it doesn't violate the range?
That's really the issue here, the caster can see the point or target around the obstruction using their arcane eye spell but the clear path to the point/target is not a straight line. I don't see anything RAW that denotes a straight line in the targeting text or really anywhere else (except specific spell descriptions) but I can definitely see how it could be RAI.
Is there anything else I'm missing here as far as the RAW go? This is the debate my player has brought up so I'm just trying to explore the angles and see what others have done before I make a ruling.
That could make for an interesting homebrew metamagic. Hook your spells around corners and cover. All other spell requirements (see the target, range, etc) would still apply of course.
Meandering Spell: The caster does not require a linear path to the target as long as the caster is aware of an unobstructed path.
@Houligan - Okay, so this is getting into the areas of effect section of the PHB text then. I don't know that I applied this to anything other than specific damage dealing spells that have these clearly stated effects but in reading it again, this stuck part stuck out - "spell's effect expands in straight lines from the point of origin." Suggestion doesn't exactly specify anything other than seeing target creature and target creature hearing you but realistically the default assumption would seem to be a line with a description like that and the caster as point of origin.
"A spell's description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere. Every area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the spell's energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how you position its point of origin. Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.
A spell's effect expands in straight lines from the point of origin. If no unblocked straight line extends from the point of origin to a location within the area of effect, that location isn't included in the spell's area. To block one of these imaginary lines, an obstruction must provide total cover, as explained in chapter 9."
Thanks! I wouldn't have read that and applied it more broadly than I had without the nudges.
Actually, the more I read / think about it, I'm not as sure. I am mainly going by what I have been able to find elsewhere. here and here
For the general case of "I have magic scrying active, does that count as seeing a creature?" I think the answer is it depends on if they count as having total cover.
A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect. A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle.
If they do not have total cover, you can Arcane Eye and then Sacred Flame a creature. Something like Scorching Ray probably also works, though they probably count as having half or three-quarters cover. I have to think more on Fireball.
If they do have total cover, then you cannot target them.
I think I would handle it as having the player make an Arcana check against their own spell save DC. If they pass, the target does not have total cover, and instead has 1/2 (behind a wall) or 3/4 (behind a door) cover.
For your specific case of Arcane Eye and Suggestion there is a second thing which hasn't been brought up yet. that I just realized, which results in an unambiguous NO.
Arcane Eye and Suggestion are both concentration spells. So the order of events would be:
Cast Arcane Eye, fly it around the corner to see the dude
Cast Suggestion. The caster's concentration ends at the START of casting the spell.
Since the caster can no longer see the target because Arcane Eye has ended, he can't target that creature with Suggestion
Personally, it would depend on both the nature of the spell, and the nature of whatever is in the way. It's one of those situations where there is no effective blanket statement that can cover the myriad possible combinations of things that can produce unique situations that deviate from the established rules.
In the situation you described in the OP: Arcane Eye has moved under a door to reveal the interior of the room, and the caster now wants to use Suggestion on a creature in the room.
[edit] Just re-read the text for Fireball after posting this, and it does describe it as a projectile emanating from the caster to reach the target point, so that changes the context. I was figuring it simply erupted at the target point, which would not require a clear path. So anywhere you see I wrote Fireball, exchange it for Minor Illusion or Cure Wounds, or whatever other spell you know that simply occurs at the point without any sort of projectile or travel time. This is a concept question, and my answer is concept based. [/edit]
The complication here is Suggestion. The target must be able to hear you, in order to fall victim to the magical effect assaulting their will. Perhaps this is possible through the closed door, perhaps not. It would depend on how solid the door is, how close the creature is to the door, and how good the creature's hearing is. The caster would likely have to be shouting, which might provoke perception checks from other monsters, and the target creature itself would likely be making a perception check to see if it can even hear the spell.
Now if you were to replace Suggestion with Fireball, I would see that working just fine. Fireball targets a point you can see. Technically you are not seeing it, the Arcane Eye is seeing it. But you, the caster of the Eye, have perception of everything the Eye can see. So you, then, would have line of sight to the point you are casting. You'll probably also destroy the Eye in the process, along with most objects in the room... but hey, you chose to cast Fireball.
Other types of spells, like rays or bolts, I would say are a flat out no-go with a door in the way. The fact is that the Arcane Eye is not casting the spell, you are. You're just getting targeting information from it. Ray and bolt type spells, like Ray of Frost or Magic Missile or Eldritch Blast require a clear path to the target just like any physical projectile would. So they'd impact the door despite you using the Eye to target creatures on the other side.
Line and cone spells are a little trickier. You could certainly target a creature on the other side of the door, attempting to break it down and attack at the same time. But the caster's location relative to the door and the target on the other side would affect the shape of the affected area, since presumably the wall the door is built into would be of sturdy enough stuff that, say, Cone of Cold would be unable to effectively damage it. But if you're not standing right on top of the door, you'd be creating a second, smaller cone on the other side of the door, reducing the area of effect of the spell. A line spell like Lightning Bolt would also require more intricate positioning to get through the door, hit the target, and hopefully something else beyond.
Now, if it was only a wall with no ceiling, and the caster is just on the other side of it, that changes some of the situations. First of all, without an opening in the wall to cast through, the Line and Cone spells are simply not applicable anymore. Again, the Arcane Eye is not casting the spell, the caster is. As such, the wall blocks those spells. I would also say that Ray type spells would also be ineligible, since the implication is that they fly in a straight line. Magic Missile I'd allow, though, since it doesn't need a direct path, but rather line of sight. Imagine it being like a miniature guided missile, able to redirect it's own flight path to navigate around obstacles to reach the target. And in this case, point target AoEs are again unaffected, since you need sight of the target, which you have courtesy of the Eye. Going back to things like Suggestion or Vicious Mockery, it again depends on whether or not the target can hear the caster, but with no ceiling in the way I'd say it would be more likely to succeed on the perception DC. But it's not a sure thing.
The scenario shifts again if the caster can reach up to or over the top of the wall. Cones, Lines, and Rays are now viable, since the barrier between the caster and the target can be overcome (though a check may be necessary depending on how much reaching is involved to clear the wall). Auditory spells would again be easier, and would likely no longer require a check.
These are the lines along which I'd handle a scenario like that. Hope that's helpful.
Had this come up in the middle of combat in our session and I nixed it in favor of moving the flow of combat forward rather than opening up a debate about rules and interpretation. I'm interested in the various tactics of other DMs to get other opinions.
Scenario: Wizard is using Arcane Eye to scoot the "eye" sensor under the gap of a closed door in order to scope out the next room and sees a creature. Wizard wants to target the creature and cast Suggestion but he's only within 30ft (range of suggestion) if we're counting range as a straight line through a wall.
Reasons I'd rule the above doesn't work:
The way in which I'm thinking about letting this succeed:
Targeting & Clear Path reference from DnD Beyond PHB content: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/spellcasting#Targets
Now comes the trickier part, how this applies to other spell combinations. Great example, Fireball. Nothing in the fireball spell states it travels a straight line, just that the bead travels from your finger to a point you designate within range. If you can see a point around a corner through a magical sensor, can you curve the fireball around a corner to reach that point? How about curving it through multiple open doors in a building to get there if its still within range?
Thoughts from other DMs on the above or ways you've handled this in your games? I wanted to see how others have handled this considering this seems to open up a well of unintended consequences that kind of have similar applications based on scrying sensors helping as a sight component and spells not needing a straight path as long as it's a clear path.
Thanks in advance for any advice.
In that Targets section:A wall like you describe grants total cover, so they would not have a clear path between the spellcaster and the target.Edit: this is not necessarily true, I think it depends on the spell, see later post.
Site Info: Wizard's ToS | Fan Content Policy | Forum Rules | Physical Books | Content Not Working | Contact Support
How To: Homebrew Rules | Create Homebrew | Snippet Codes | Tool Tips (Custom) | Rollables (Generator)
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Feats | Spells | Magic Items
Other: Beyond20 | Page References | Other Guides | Entitlements | Dice Randomization | Images Fix | FAQ
As Houligan pointed out you need a direct line between you and the target. By this a creature with total cover (closed doors count) cannot be targeted. So any spell that targets another creature cannot be cast, like Suggestion.
Misty Step would work though: since the target is actually "you" not the desired space and you can see that space through the Arcane Eye (or Clairvoyance, or Scrying or Find Familiar...).
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
So the clear path = a straight line between caster and target and not just any clear path as long as it doesn't violate the range?
That's really the issue here, the caster can see the point or target around the obstruction using their arcane eye spell but the clear path to the point/target is not a straight line. I don't see anything RAW that denotes a straight line in the targeting text or really anywhere else (except specific spell descriptions) but I can definitely see how it could be RAI.
Is there anything else I'm missing here as far as the RAW go? This is the debate my player has brought up so I'm just trying to explore the angles and see what others have done before I make a ruling.
The clear path is a clear Line of Effect. You need to be able to draw a straight line between the caster and the target.Edit: this is not necessarily true, I think it depends on the spell, see later post.
Site Info: Wizard's ToS | Fan Content Policy | Forum Rules | Physical Books | Content Not Working | Contact Support
How To: Homebrew Rules | Create Homebrew | Snippet Codes | Tool Tips (Custom) | Rollables (Generator)
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Feats | Spells | Magic Items
Other: Beyond20 | Page References | Other Guides | Entitlements | Dice Randomization | Images Fix | FAQ
That could make for an interesting homebrew metamagic. Hook your spells around corners and cover. All other spell requirements (see the target, range, etc) would still apply of course.
Meandering Spell: The caster does not require a linear path to the target as long as the caster is aware of an unobstructed path.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
@Houligan - Okay, so this is getting into the areas of effect section of the PHB text then. I don't know that I applied this to anything other than specific damage dealing spells that have these clearly stated effects but in reading it again, this stuck part stuck out - "spell's effect expands in straight lines from the point of origin." Suggestion doesn't exactly specify anything other than seeing target creature and target creature hearing you but realistically the default assumption would seem to be a line with a description like that and the caster as point of origin.
"A spell's description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere. Every area of effect has a point of origin, a location from which the spell's energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how you position its point of origin. Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.
A spell's effect expands in straight lines from the point of origin. If no unblocked straight line extends from the point of origin to a location within the area of effect, that location isn't included in the spell's area. To block one of these imaginary lines, an obstruction must provide total cover, as explained in chapter 9."
Thanks! I wouldn't have read that and applied it more broadly than I had without the nudges.
Actually, the more I read / think about it, I'm not as sure. I am mainly going by what I have been able to find elsewhere. here and here
For the general case of "I have magic scrying active, does that count as seeing a creature?" I think the answer is it depends on if they count as having total cover.
If they do not have total cover, you can Arcane Eye and then Sacred Flame a creature. Something like Scorching Ray probably also works, though they probably count as having half or three-quarters cover. I have to think more on Fireball.
If they do have total cover, then you cannot target them.
I think I would handle it as having the player make an Arcana check against their own spell save DC. If they pass, the target does not have total cover, and instead has 1/2 (behind a wall) or 3/4 (behind a door) cover.
For your specific case of Arcane Eye and Suggestion there is a second thing which hasn't been brought up yet. that I just realized, which results in an unambiguous NO.
Arcane Eye and Suggestion are both concentration spells. So the order of events would be:
Site Info: Wizard's ToS | Fan Content Policy | Forum Rules | Physical Books | Content Not Working | Contact Support
How To: Homebrew Rules | Create Homebrew | Snippet Codes | Tool Tips (Custom) | Rollables (Generator)
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Feats | Spells | Magic Items
Other: Beyond20 | Page References | Other Guides | Entitlements | Dice Randomization | Images Fix | FAQ
Personally, it would depend on both the nature of the spell, and the nature of whatever is in the way. It's one of those situations where there is no effective blanket statement that can cover the myriad possible combinations of things that can produce unique situations that deviate from the established rules.
In the situation you described in the OP: Arcane Eye has moved under a door to reveal the interior of the room, and the caster now wants to use Suggestion on a creature in the room.
[edit] Just re-read the text for Fireball after posting this, and it does describe it as a projectile emanating from the caster to reach the target point, so that changes the context. I was figuring it simply erupted at the target point, which would not require a clear path. So anywhere you see I wrote Fireball, exchange it for Minor Illusion or Cure Wounds, or whatever other spell you know that simply occurs at the point without any sort of projectile or travel time. This is a concept question, and my answer is concept based. [/edit]
The complication here is Suggestion. The target must be able to hear you, in order to fall victim to the magical effect assaulting their will. Perhaps this is possible through the closed door, perhaps not. It would depend on how solid the door is, how close the creature is to the door, and how good the creature's hearing is. The caster would likely have to be shouting, which might provoke perception checks from other monsters, and the target creature itself would likely be making a perception check to see if it can even hear the spell.
Now if you were to replace Suggestion with Fireball, I would see that working just fine. Fireball targets a point you can see. Technically you are not seeing it, the Arcane Eye is seeing it. But you, the caster of the Eye, have perception of everything the Eye can see. So you, then, would have line of sight to the point you are casting. You'll probably also destroy the Eye in the process, along with most objects in the room... but hey, you chose to cast Fireball.
Other types of spells, like rays or bolts, I would say are a flat out no-go with a door in the way. The fact is that the Arcane Eye is not casting the spell, you are. You're just getting targeting information from it. Ray and bolt type spells, like Ray of Frost or Magic Missile or Eldritch Blast require a clear path to the target just like any physical projectile would. So they'd impact the door despite you using the Eye to target creatures on the other side.
Line and cone spells are a little trickier. You could certainly target a creature on the other side of the door, attempting to break it down and attack at the same time. But the caster's location relative to the door and the target on the other side would affect the shape of the affected area, since presumably the wall the door is built into would be of sturdy enough stuff that, say, Cone of Cold would be unable to effectively damage it. But if you're not standing right on top of the door, you'd be creating a second, smaller cone on the other side of the door, reducing the area of effect of the spell. A line spell like Lightning Bolt would also require more intricate positioning to get through the door, hit the target, and hopefully something else beyond.
Now, if it was only a wall with no ceiling, and the caster is just on the other side of it, that changes some of the situations. First of all, without an opening in the wall to cast through, the Line and Cone spells are simply not applicable anymore. Again, the Arcane Eye is not casting the spell, the caster is. As such, the wall blocks those spells. I would also say that Ray type spells would also be ineligible, since the implication is that they fly in a straight line. Magic Missile I'd allow, though, since it doesn't need a direct path, but rather line of sight. Imagine it being like a miniature guided missile, able to redirect it's own flight path to navigate around obstacles to reach the target. And in this case, point target AoEs are again unaffected, since you need sight of the target, which you have courtesy of the Eye. Going back to things like Suggestion or Vicious Mockery, it again depends on whether or not the target can hear the caster, but with no ceiling in the way I'd say it would be more likely to succeed on the perception DC. But it's not a sure thing.
The scenario shifts again if the caster can reach up to or over the top of the wall. Cones, Lines, and Rays are now viable, since the barrier between the caster and the target can be overcome (though a check may be necessary depending on how much reaching is involved to clear the wall). Auditory spells would again be easier, and would likely no longer require a check.
These are the lines along which I'd handle a scenario like that. Hope that's helpful.