I'm working on an Eberron campaign and I want to have my characters start in The Last War. They would be an over the top elite military unit like The Expendables for the first session (After session 0). I'd like to do this at level 12 and throw some titans and other fun stuff at them. After that I want to "fast forward" a few years. The characters would choose something that caused their character to regress like alcoholism, PTSD, gambling, Injury ETC. I think this opens up great RP opportunities and allows the players to test a high level build to see if they like it. This may be a dumb idea, but it sounds fun to me. They would start at level 3 after the "Last War" Session. I hope this helps add depth to their characters. Does something like this sound like it will work? Is losing the level something that is in the rules? Didn't find anything in the DMG. Are subjects like PTSD, addiction, etc too deep? Sorry for rambling and thanks in advance!
There are no rules for losing levels. Previous editions of D&D had rules for that, but they're not remembered very fondly.
You're free to do whatever you like in your own games including adding, changing or removing rules and exploring specific themes. Just make sure it's something your players want to do.
Personally I don't think leveling down is a great narrative fit for this because people rarely forget skills they had previously mastered, they just get rusty. I think dropping their HP, proficiency bonus and/or ability scores is more believable than telling players they've lost access to features they used to have.
There are no rules for losing levels. Previous editions of D&D had rules for that, but they're not remembered very fondly.
You're free to do whatever you like in your own games including adding, changing or removing rules and exploring specific themes. Just make sure it's something your players want to do.
Personally I don't think leveling down is a great narrative fit for this because people rarely forget skills they had previously mastered, they just get rusty. I think dropping their HP, proficiency bonus and/or ability scores is more believable than telling players they've lost access to features they used to have.
on top of this....
it sets up the weird situation of what if when they re-level they go a different route than how they were previously at level 12. Or are they railroaded and forced to go the same route? it opens that scenario of weirdness, that requires further discussion as well between dm and players.
overall. I wouldn’t recommend it, but it can be done, just make sure you plan for all kinds of bizarre situations... that are Meta’d but not meta, since you gave them all Pandora’s boxes to open.
If the players are on board, you can do it. Mild spoilery stuff for Critical Role ahead: The character of Caleb was a higher level in his backstory than he began as when the campaign streaming began. We don't know exactly what caused the regression but we know it occurred during the 11 or so years he was in the sanatorium after his emotional/mental breaking moment in his backstory. There is one monster in the MM that I'm aware of that can sap a single level. You could also have the Mourning be the cause of the regression (which could easily hand-wave away the character deviations that occur after session 0.)
I'd check with the players to see if they want to RP/play the high level stuff and then start over with their characters at 1 or 3 or whatever level you have them at after the fast forward. If they don't want to play that part, just build it into their backstory and if they don't want their characters to remember the before, that can be a plot/adventure hook for you and gives them autonomy over their character choices.
A bit uninspiring, but it works... What you could do is in the final battle take place in some lost laboratory where a bad guy comes across some kind of magic scroll or lost technology and in his effort to escape uses the item to "sap the power" of the heroes, after which the object or scroll used is destroyed in the process. This returns them to an earlier level and is the source of why they suffer from the various maladies you anticipate (alcoholism, PTSD, etc).
Back in AD&D the ghost in the monster manual would drain levels from your character. No reason you could not have a reason to do the same. I personally like the idea of of it. Just try to give the players some in-game clues to it. This way you dont end up draining them down to nothing.
If you want to let them play a prologue battle as a younger, stronger version of their character, I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility to give them a one time ASI of +4 to STR and DEX and do multiple attacks (like they’ll get at higher levels) for a single encounter. At the same time, I think you should drop them 4 wisdom and intelligence for the same encounter. But I wouldn’t throw titans at them. Just let them cut through low level CRs like butter. Casters would have it harder in this battle. But I think it can be overcome with tweaking based on your actual group. Then fast forward 20 years. “Your strength and dexterity aren’t what they used to be. You’re not as fast as you were. But with age has come wisdom. People say your time has passed. That you should leave adventuring to the post-war generation. You aren’t convinced your best days are behind you. This is your chance to prove it.”
but the easier way would be to just narrate the group’s elite history, or establish at session 0 the understanding that they used to be elite in the days of the Last War, and let them start with the stats they rolled in the present day. Or if you really want to play up their being out of shape, give them -4 STR and DEX at lvl 1, back it off to -2 at lvl 2, and by lvl 3 they are fully back in shape.
I don’t think PTSD and alcoholism are off limits or too deep. Just know your group. Those flaws will give these characters individuality. It’ll make trips to the tavern more interesting. It’ll give them something personal to overcome while the group works other stuff as a team.
sounds fun. I hope you hit on something that works for your group.
I do apply XP losses on my game if the characters had a major defeat or retreat. I then award the XP to the monster or NPC that defeated the PCs, so next time the PCs want to face again such monster, it has more HDs or tricks to add to the new encounter.
Hardcore old-school DMs also make their PCs lose XP when they act against their alignment, creed or their deities values or faith.
The point of losing is XP: you are signalling your PCs that defeat is also a part of the game, not only mechanically, but also psychologically.
If your PCs play D&D only for the victories, then they are not going to ever succeed, in real life and in D&D, as there are valuable lessons to be extracted from your defeat.
Lessons that the PCs will not learn if they keep ever winning, or if they can't ever devolve.
I also like the idea of PC's devolving when they fall from grace. Making them losing levels can be a creative idea for keep playing with characters that reached level 20.
The point of losing is XP: you are signalling your PCs that defeat is also a part of the game, not only mechanically, but also psychologically.
If your PCs play D&D only for the victories, then they are not going to ever succeed, in real life and in D&D, as there are valuable lessons to be extracted from your defeat.
But do you need the XP mechanic to reflect that? There should be plenty of story consequences to defeat that are plenty discouraging. The town is overrun. The necromancer recovers the final item they needed to complete their doomsday ritual. The King is angered that you failed his quest and banishes you from the kingdom. These things mean a lot more than XP numbers on your sheet.
Reread that second sentence I quoted and see if you can detect the irony. You are correct that there are valuable lessons that can be extracted from defeat, but you are representing that by having the characters learn nothing from defeat. Or rather literally unlearning from defeat. So the lesson you are teaching about defeat is that defeat teaches nothing.
XP loss on defeat implies that you only learn from success, which is completely backwards to me. Hell if we want to bestow valuable lessons from real life you should learn more from failure.
As for OP's idea, keep in mind that class levels and features are just a small part of who your character is. I wouldn't run OP's scenario by deleveling the PCs, I'd just have them write up 12th level characters and 3rd level characters. Obviously someone isn't going to go from a 12th level druid to a 3rd level rogue, but I'd allow for some deviations from the old character if they had compelling reasons for the change.
This is a similair approach to some computer games, you start out the first level with all the skills and then lose them and spend the rest of the game regaining them.
I would say that if these are new players your first sessions will go a lot slower as they learn to play the game with a plethora of skills and abilities and spells they have no idea how to use so while it may sound cool it might be counter productive.
I'm working on an Eberron campaign and I want to have my characters start in The Last War. They would be an over the top elite military unit like The Expendables for the first session (After session 0). I'd like to do this at level 12 and throw some titans and other fun stuff at them. After that I want to "fast forward" a few years. The characters would choose something that caused their character to regress like alcoholism, PTSD, gambling, Injury ETC. I think this opens up great RP opportunities and allows the players to test a high level build to see if they like it. This may be a dumb idea, but it sounds fun to me. They would start at level 3 after the "Last War" Session. I hope this helps add depth to their characters. Does something like this sound like it will work? Is losing the level something that is in the rules? Didn't find anything in the DMG. Are subjects like PTSD, addiction, etc too deep? Sorry for rambling and thanks in advance!
I think this is a nice idea with a lot of potentials. I would talk with your players extensively to make sure everyone is ok with it and on the same table. Other than that, it makes for some downright excellent setup. The heroes are washed up, shadows of their former selves. They have to pick themselves up and work hard to regain their prowess.
Just what I always didn't want to do. Sit down for a game in which I had a character I liked and got to play for a while, then enjoy the retched refuse as I treat serious and painful real life issues in a fun and light-hearted manner. If that doesn't drive me to drink, I don't know what would.
So I have a 12th level character. I've done all the work to get it just right, picked out ability score increases, or feats, made my decisions about background and personality, and then I put that off to the side, make a new character with the same name and race at 3rd level and resume play. I suppose I could try to follow the path that I went through in my mind to make my 12th level character, but what fun is there in that? I already know how that story ends. So this time I'm going to do something entirely different.
If I am going to climb for the heights, tumbling back down off of them and breaking things on the way isn't my idea of a good time.
So what's wrong with wanting to kill things and take their stuff? I enjoy that. I confine myself to killing Evil things. Taking stuff away from others I'll try other methods than killing first and it is up to the DM how they want me to handle it. I'm perfectly happy to sit there and roleplay without rolling any dice for entire sessions so long as everyone is having fun. It has a game, however, and I want there to be points where rolling the dice become important. Otherwise I might as well read a book.
The Original Post is about making a character that you like at level 12. Then making the same character again at level 3 and playing. It talks about justifying the drop in levels by giving the 12th level characters crippling problems that are quite horrible in the real world, and then trying to have fun going back to what you once were.
If I have created at 12th level character, played them, and had fun doing it, then I am not going to want to play their post crippling remnant. That's a story already told, and the ending was sad. I have to get all the way back to 12th again and hope that this time I can continue to have fun. What was the point of going back? So my preference is to make a brand new character and play something fresh. I'll keep the name alive as a memento of the fun I had before.
If they want me to go to a place creatively where my precious 12th level character will never take me, then they can just take me there! Why futz with all those previous levels? It adds nothing to the story for me. I can make a note in my Background information about how something bad happened to me in the past and how I long to return to what I once was without having to actually play through it, spending however many hours to do it, when I have a character right in front of me and ready to go.
I'd really rather start at first level and go from there. I don't mind starting at third. I can have my mind on what I'd like to be at 12th. The whole long climb up is the fun stuff. If the DM wants to start at level 12 and have us actually see level 20, which is something few ever do without making the character at level 20 to being with, that's great!
Losing things that you once had is something I have had plenty of in real life. I had a daughter. I don't know where she is, what she's doing, what she calls herself now... she knows how to reach me if she wants to.
When I sit down to play a game, online or not, I want to leave behind the real word and enjoy myself. I don't find loss, or pain, or tragic things from the past fun at all.
Yep! You can totally do this and it sounds awesome. Just make sure your players are down with it beforehand.
In my game our vengeance paladin player joined late so I weaved in a bunch of back story vignettes, one for each level, to bring him up to the level of the party, and then one further (he was lv 3, the rest lv 2).
In his very first assignment after leaving the temple (after saying vow at lv 3) he found the guy who killed his father, the guy he had dedicated his life to hunting down, and... killed him. After that he went a little crazy and became a drunk in a small village inn for months until the rest of the characters found him. In this time he had lost his way and dropped back to lvl 2 (same lv as rest of the party).
The player then had the choice of what happened next. He could stay a drunk and multicass to rogue or fighter, become a different type of paladin, or reconcile, grow and become a true vengeance paladin- one motivated by justice rather than selfish goals (think the difference between Batman and The Punnisher).
He chose the latter and it has been awesome.
I recommend having a mix for your party - some old heroes who are reclaiming their strengths, and some newbies who need their help. Sounds like a compelling story to me.
I feel regression works well mechanically for starting a new campaign I.e. 200 years later your Elven Wizard has slacked off, been trapped in a sarcophagus in the underworld or otherwise MIA and much of his knowledge and skill forgotten. It's a great way to have established pcs interact with new pc without a huge level disparity imo. This works for any class really as your character is relearning his skills and can recount past events.
I think the idea can be great if the entire table gets behind it (DM and players)!
I don't think level loss is the pathway to fun as it's referencing a mechanic that's not in the current game. I try to find my answers within the existing rule structure first, and I think that you can find a win with that here via the Exhaustion rules. Every time they finish a Long Rest the players could make a roll for the characters and gain a level of Exhaustion if they don't hit the DC you apply.
This could be situational vs, daily and apply when events merit it. Events and happenings that remind them of the war, etc.
It's not going to peel away 9 levels of power (going from 12th to 3rd), but it would suggest they have something to overcome in the story while the mechanic supports it.
I'm working on an Eberron campaign and I want to have my characters start in The Last War. They would be an over the top elite military unit like The Expendables for the first session (After session 0). I'd like to do this at level 12 and throw some titans and other fun stuff at them. After that I want to "fast forward" a few years. The characters would choose something that caused their character to regress like alcoholism, PTSD, gambling, Injury ETC. I think this opens up great RP opportunities and allows the players to test a high level build to see if they like it. This may be a dumb idea, but it sounds fun to me. They would start at level 3 after the "Last War" Session. I hope this helps add depth to their characters. Does something like this sound like it will work? Is losing the level something that is in the rules? Didn't find anything in the DMG. Are subjects like PTSD, addiction, etc too deep? Sorry for rambling and thanks in advance!
There are no rules for losing levels. Previous editions of D&D had rules for that, but they're not remembered very fondly.
You're free to do whatever you like in your own games including adding, changing or removing rules and exploring specific themes. Just make sure it's something your players want to do.
Personally I don't think leveling down is a great narrative fit for this because people rarely forget skills they had previously mastered, they just get rusty. I think dropping their HP, proficiency bonus and/or ability scores is more believable than telling players they've lost access to features they used to have.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
on top of this....
it sets up the weird situation of what if when they re-level they go a different route than how they were previously at level 12. Or are they railroaded and forced to go the same route?
it opens that scenario of weirdness, that requires further discussion as well between dm and players.
overall. I wouldn’t recommend it, but it can be done, just make sure you plan for all kinds of bizarre situations... that are Meta’d but not meta, since you gave them all Pandora’s boxes to open.
If the players are on board, you can do it. Mild spoilery stuff for Critical Role ahead: The character of Caleb was a higher level in his backstory than he began as when the campaign streaming began. We don't know exactly what caused the regression but we know it occurred during the 11 or so years he was in the sanatorium after his emotional/mental breaking moment in his backstory. There is one monster in the MM that I'm aware of that can sap a single level. You could also have the Mourning be the cause of the regression (which could easily hand-wave away the character deviations that occur after session 0.)
I'd check with the players to see if they want to RP/play the high level stuff and then start over with their characters at 1 or 3 or whatever level you have them at after the fast forward. If they don't want to play that part, just build it into their backstory and if they don't want their characters to remember the before, that can be a plot/adventure hook for you and gives them autonomy over their character choices.
My Homebrew Backgrounds | Feats | Magic Items | Monsters | Races | Subclasses
"A wizard did it"
A bit uninspiring, but it works... What you could do is in the final battle take place in some lost laboratory where a bad guy comes across some kind of magic scroll or lost technology and in his effort to escape uses the item to "sap the power" of the heroes, after which the object or scroll used is destroyed in the process. This returns them to an earlier level and is the source of why they suffer from the various maladies you anticipate (alcoholism, PTSD, etc).
Back in AD&D the ghost in the monster manual would drain levels from your character. No reason you could not have a reason to do the same. I personally like the idea of of it. Just try to give the players some in-game clues to it. This way you dont end up draining them down to nothing.
If you want to let them play a prologue battle as a younger, stronger version of their character, I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility to give them a one time ASI of +4 to STR and DEX and do multiple attacks (like they’ll get at higher levels) for a single encounter. At the same time, I think you should drop them 4 wisdom and intelligence for the same encounter. But I wouldn’t throw titans at them. Just let them cut through low level CRs like butter. Casters would have it harder in this battle. But I think it can be overcome with tweaking based on your actual group. Then fast forward 20 years. “Your strength and dexterity aren’t what they used to be. You’re not as fast as you were. But with age has come wisdom. People say your time has passed. That you should leave adventuring to the post-war generation. You aren’t convinced your best days are behind you. This is your chance to prove it.”
but the easier way would be to just narrate the group’s elite history, or establish at session 0 the understanding that they used to be elite in the days of the Last War, and let them start with the stats they rolled in the present day. Or if you really want to play up their being out of shape, give them -4 STR and DEX at lvl 1, back it off to -2 at lvl 2, and by lvl 3 they are fully back in shape.
I don’t think PTSD and alcoholism are off limits or too deep. Just know your group. Those flaws will give these characters individuality. It’ll make trips to the tavern more interesting. It’ll give them something personal to overcome while the group works other stuff as a team.
sounds fun. I hope you hit on something that works for your group.
I do apply XP losses on my game if the characters had a major defeat or retreat. I then award the XP to the monster or NPC that defeated the PCs, so next time the PCs want to face again such monster, it has more HDs or tricks to add to the new encounter.
Hardcore old-school DMs also make their PCs lose XP when they act against their alignment, creed or their deities values or faith.
The point of losing is XP: you are signalling your PCs that defeat is also a part of the game, not only mechanically, but also psychologically.
If your PCs play D&D only for the victories, then they are not going to ever succeed, in real life and in D&D, as there are valuable lessons to be extracted from your defeat.
Lessons that the PCs will not learn if they keep ever winning, or if they can't ever devolve.
I also like the idea of PC's devolving when they fall from grace. Making them losing levels can be a creative idea for keep playing with characters that reached level 20.
But do you need the XP mechanic to reflect that? There should be plenty of story consequences to defeat that are plenty discouraging. The town is overrun. The necromancer recovers the final item they needed to complete their doomsday ritual. The King is angered that you failed his quest and banishes you from the kingdom. These things mean a lot more than XP numbers on your sheet.
Reread that second sentence I quoted and see if you can detect the irony. You are correct that there are valuable lessons that can be extracted from defeat, but you are representing that by having the characters learn nothing from defeat. Or rather literally unlearning from defeat. So the lesson you are teaching about defeat is that defeat teaches nothing.
XP loss on defeat implies that you only learn from success, which is completely backwards to me. Hell if we want to bestow valuable lessons from real life you should learn more from failure.
As for OP's idea, keep in mind that class levels and features are just a small part of who your character is. I wouldn't run OP's scenario by deleveling the PCs, I'd just have them write up 12th level characters and 3rd level characters. Obviously someone isn't going to go from a 12th level druid to a 3rd level rogue, but I'd allow for some deviations from the old character if they had compelling reasons for the change.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
This is a similair approach to some computer games, you start out the first level with all the skills and then lose them and spend the rest of the game regaining them.
I would say that if these are new players your first sessions will go a lot slower as they learn to play the game with a plethora of skills and abilities and spells they have no idea how to use so while it may sound cool it might be counter productive.
IRL, I loose about 1 level every 2 years.
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
I think this is a nice idea with a lot of potentials. I would talk with your players extensively to make sure everyone is ok with it and on the same table. Other than that, it makes for some downright excellent setup. The heroes are washed up, shadows of their former selves. They have to pick themselves up and work hard to regain their prowess.
Just what I always didn't want to do. Sit down for a game in which I had a character I liked and got to play for a while, then enjoy the retched refuse as I treat serious and painful real life issues in a fun and light-hearted manner. If that doesn't drive me to drink, I don't know what would.
So I have a 12th level character. I've done all the work to get it just right, picked out ability score increases, or feats, made my decisions about background and personality, and then I put that off to the side, make a new character with the same name and race at 3rd level and resume play. I suppose I could try to follow the path that I went through in my mind to make my 12th level character, but what fun is there in that? I already know how that story ends. So this time I'm going to do something entirely different.
If I am going to climb for the heights, tumbling back down off of them and breaking things on the way isn't my idea of a good time.
Have fun in your games.
<Insert clever signature here>
So what's wrong with wanting to kill things and take their stuff? I enjoy that. I confine myself to killing Evil things. Taking stuff away from others I'll try other methods than killing first and it is up to the DM how they want me to handle it. I'm perfectly happy to sit there and roleplay without rolling any dice for entire sessions so long as everyone is having fun. It has a game, however, and I want there to be points where rolling the dice become important. Otherwise I might as well read a book.
The Original Post is about making a character that you like at level 12. Then making the same character again at level 3 and playing. It talks about justifying the drop in levels by giving the 12th level characters crippling problems that are quite horrible in the real world, and then trying to have fun going back to what you once were.
If I have created at 12th level character, played them, and had fun doing it, then I am not going to want to play their post crippling remnant. That's a story already told, and the ending was sad. I have to get all the way back to 12th again and hope that this time I can continue to have fun. What was the point of going back? So my preference is to make a brand new character and play something fresh. I'll keep the name alive as a memento of the fun I had before.
<Insert clever signature here>
If they want me to go to a place creatively where my precious 12th level character will never take me, then they can just take me there! Why futz with all those previous levels? It adds nothing to the story for me. I can make a note in my Background information about how something bad happened to me in the past and how I long to return to what I once was without having to actually play through it, spending however many hours to do it, when I have a character right in front of me and ready to go.
I'd really rather start at first level and go from there. I don't mind starting at third. I can have my mind on what I'd like to be at 12th. The whole long climb up is the fun stuff. If the DM wants to start at level 12 and have us actually see level 20, which is something few ever do without making the character at level 20 to being with, that's great!
Losing things that you once had is something I have had plenty of in real life. I had a daughter. I don't know where she is, what she's doing, what she calls herself now... she knows how to reach me if she wants to.
When I sit down to play a game, online or not, I want to leave behind the real word and enjoy myself. I don't find loss, or pain, or tragic things from the past fun at all.
<Insert clever signature here>
Yep! You can totally do this and it sounds awesome. Just make sure your players are down with it beforehand.
In my game our vengeance paladin player joined late so I weaved in a bunch of back story vignettes, one for each level, to bring him up to the level of the party, and then one further (he was lv 3, the rest lv 2).
In his very first assignment after leaving the temple (after saying vow at lv 3) he found the guy who killed his father, the guy he had dedicated his life to hunting down, and... killed him. After that he went a little crazy and became a drunk in a small village inn for months until the rest of the characters found him. In this time he had lost his way and dropped back to lvl 2 (same lv as rest of the party).
The player then had the choice of what happened next. He could stay a drunk and multicass to rogue or fighter, become a different type of paladin, or reconcile, grow and become a true vengeance paladin- one motivated by justice rather than selfish goals (think the difference between Batman and The Punnisher).
He chose the latter and it has been awesome.
I recommend having a mix for your party - some old heroes who are reclaiming their strengths, and some newbies who need their help. Sounds like a compelling story to me.
I feel regression works well mechanically for starting a new campaign I.e. 200 years later your Elven Wizard has slacked off, been trapped in a sarcophagus in the underworld or otherwise MIA and much of his knowledge and skill forgotten. It's a great way to have established pcs interact with new pc without a huge level disparity imo. This works for any class really as your character is relearning his skills and can recount past events.
With warmest sympathies and most cutting words.
Talk to your players to see if they want to do this first
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
I think the idea can be great if the entire table gets behind it (DM and players)!
I don't think level loss is the pathway to fun as it's referencing a mechanic that's not in the current game. I try to find my answers within the existing rule structure first, and I think that you can find a win with that here via the Exhaustion rules. Every time they finish a Long Rest the players could make a roll for the characters and gain a level of Exhaustion if they don't hit the DC you apply.
This could be situational vs, daily and apply when events merit it. Events and happenings that remind them of the war, etc.
It's not going to peel away 9 levels of power (going from 12th to 3rd), but it would suggest they have something to overcome in the story while the mechanic supports it.
Unless you intentionally built an entire game about starting at 20th level and ending as 1st level, I would not attempt to do this.
As others have stated, losing levels has a very bad reputation from earlier editions of D&D.