Hello all, the obvios problem with Dual Wield in 5e is disturbing me a long time. I will not write why DW is so bad, there are a plenty of posts explaining that.
I want to share and hear your feed back about two different ways of homebrew, adressed to make DW fun and viable to play.
Firstly, the main problem with DW is a bonus action. Both my HB rules get rid of that. No more dps and utility waste! Secondly. Both of ways dont count Two-weapon fightning style. I get rid of it completly, it needs full remake for every method, so forget about it for now. Thirdly, Dual Wielder feat is still working. Fourthly, i did some math is dps calc and will prove it below.
Rule N1. So, the first method is simple, this changes Two-Weapon Fighting rule: Every time you make an Attack action, you can make additional attack with a weapon in a second hand. You use all modifiers as usuall. If you havent used that feature, you can make one melee attack with a bonus action.
So, this is simple, one additional attack every time you used Attack action. Moreover, to not waste your dps, when you cant make Attack action, but doing melee attack (Booming blade), you can still make one attack via bonus action. You CANT make Attack action with DW attack and with DW bonus action.
Rule N2. Second is more flavorful and realy makes you feeling like youre slashing your foes with every hand you have:
When you wielding two weapons, and making Attack action, you can make two attacks separate attack for each weapons. You are using your DMG modifier only once. If you havent used Attack action that turn, you can make one melee attack with a bonus action and you cant use Attack action afterwards.
So, now you make multiple attacks each rounds. Extra attack will double that attacks. So at 5lvl you doing 4 attacks (but add dmg modifier only to two of them).
Now for some dps numbers. I will take some basic examples. +7 to hit, +5 to dmg, enemy AC is 15. Firstly, basic dps with 2H Greatsword 2d6+5.
2 attacks (extra attack)
16.3
-5+10
18.3
3 attacks (for fighter only)
24.45
-5+10
27,45
Dual Wield 1 (DW1) N main attack + 1 DW attack.
2 attacks, 1d6
17.1
2 attacks, 1d8
19.2
3 attacks, 1d6
22.8
3 attacks, 1d8
27.45
Dual Wield 2 (DW2) 2 main attacks (1d6+5+1d6 at lvl1). With extra attack you a doing 4 attacks per round.
2 attacks, 1d6 (extra attack feature)
16.3
2 attacks, 1d8
19.1
3 attacks, 1d6
24.45
3 attacks, 1d8
28.65
So, the numbers are basicaly close to each other. Pros of 2H - you have nice dmg, you can 1 hand free, you can do grapples, need only 1 weapon, you can still stuck PAM, BA from GWM, etc.. Pros of DW1 - more attacks, slightly more dmg. 1 BA attack if you spent you Action on something else. Cons - no hands free Pros of DW2 - more attacks, more dmg. Both DW1 and DW2 benefits more from effects per attack (like Hex, Hunter's Mark). Both needs x2 more weapons, that means more attunement etc..
Conclusion. This is my two ways of fixing Dual Wielding without hurting the balance of the game. I didnt count all dps for every scenario, but for me it seems now, you can use DW, have almoust as much of ulitily as 2H and dont lose DPS so dramatically as you did before. Want to head you opinion guys, what do you think needs balance\adjustments, do you like the idea at all?
I like a more simple version of N1 personally, just rolling the BA attack into the Attack action. I'd hesitate to just allow the BA attacks along with non-Attack actions, I think that could be pretty strong and enables a lot of play that doesn't have a lot to do with TWF, like charging. Other combos like cantrip + attack is intentionally reserved for EKs and Bladesingers and I don't think anyone should just be able to do it by wielding two weapons.
N2 gets a little out of hand when you add Hunter's Mark or Hex or anything else that adds damage per hit.
I like a more simple version of N1 personally, just rolling the BA attack into the Attack action. I'd hesitate to just allow the BA attacks along with non-Attack actions, I think that could be pretty strong and enables a lot of play that doesn't have a lot to do with TWF, like charging. Other combos like cantrip + attack is intentionally reserved for EKs and Bladesingers and I don't think anyone should just be able to do it by wielding two weapons.
N2 gets a little out of hand when you add Hunter's Mark or Hex or anything else that adds damage per hit.
Yeah, may be you are right. I should consider BA attacks along with non-Attack actions as Two-Weapon fightning style, or separate feat
I have a fix of my own that carves out a slightly different niche for TWF, rather than just being a DPR style.
Two-Weapon Fighting
When wielding a one-handed weapon, you can equip a parrying blade / main gauche in your offhand. Any time you make a weapon attack, you can make an attack with the parrying blade as part of your action. The number of attacks scale with how many attacks you have.
Parrying Blades (Light, Finesse, Thrown)
1d4 piercing damage, +1 AC
Weapon enchantments makes the damage count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunities, but do not increase the damage. Enchantment bonuses increases the AC value of the parrying blade, as well as the chance to hit.
Example:
Parrying blade +1
1d4 magical piercing damage, +2 AC, +1 to hit
Two-Weapon Fighting Style
When wielding a parrying blade, you can use your reaction to impose disadvantage on a melee attack against you.
I don't like the parrying blade option bc it's dictating to the player how their character attacks and what weapons they need to use even moreso than what the rules dictates... no light axes, hammers, etc. And since it's a d4 weapon it's even weaker than the d6 options, where the problem is that two weapon fighting doesn't scale well. And negates using non-light weapons with the feat...
I don't like the parrying blade option bc it's dictating to the player how their character attacks and what weapons they need to use even moreso than what the rules dictates... no light axes, hammers, etc. And since it's a d4 weapon it's even weaker than the d6 options, where the problem is that two weapon fighting doesn't scale well. And negates using non-light weapons with the feat...
The idea is that TWF shouldn't compete directly with 2handed as a damage dealing option, because it generally loses out on that exchange due to action economy issues and being dependent on the fighting style. I'm also a proponent of making rapier+dagger the default dual wielding option because that's the style that seems to have been actually used at some point.
It is meant to be a balance between offense and defense that still generally scale the best with classes like Ranger and Rogue. Ranger due to more triggers for Hunter's Mark (at lvl 5 that's potentially 4d6 extra damage per turn) and Rogues for the 2 chances to trigger Sneak Attack. Neither would infringe on their action economy either, since the off-hand attack in my system is not tied to your bonus action. It is just a free addition to any melee weapon attack you make, including with blade cantrips. So they'd still get to use bonus actions for other things, like putting up Hunter's Mark or Cunning Action.
Of course, it doesn't work with the current Dual Wielder feat, but it wasn't meant to.
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Hello all, the obvios problem with Dual Wield in 5e is disturbing me a long time. I will not write why DW is so bad, there are a plenty of posts explaining that.
I want to share and hear your feed back about two different ways of homebrew, adressed to make DW fun and viable to play.
Firstly, the main problem with DW is a bonus action. Both my HB rules get rid of that. No more dps and utility waste! Secondly. Both of ways dont count Two-weapon fightning style. I get rid of it completly, it needs full remake for every method, so forget about it for now. Thirdly, Dual Wielder feat is still working. Fourthly, i did some math is dps calc and will prove it below.
Rule N1. So, the first method is simple, this changes Two-Weapon Fighting rule:
Every time you make an Attack action, you can make additional attack with a weapon in a second hand. You use all modifiers as usuall. If you havent used that feature, you can make one melee attack with a bonus action.
So, this is simple, one additional attack every time you used Attack action. Moreover, to not waste your dps, when you cant make Attack action, but doing melee attack (Booming blade), you can still make one attack via bonus action. You CANT make Attack action with DW attack and with DW bonus action.
Rule N2. Second is more flavorful and realy makes you feeling like youre slashing your foes with every hand you have:
When you wielding two weapons, and making Attack action, you can make two attacks separate attack for each weapons. You are using your DMG modifier only once. If you havent used Attack action that turn, you can make one melee attack with a bonus action and you cant use Attack action afterwards.
So, now you make multiple attacks each rounds. Extra attack will double that attacks. So at 5lvl you doing 4 attacks (but add dmg modifier only to two of them).
Now for some dps numbers. I will take some basic examples. +7 to hit, +5 to dmg, enemy AC is 15.
Firstly, basic dps with 2H Greatsword 2d6+5.
Dual Wield 1 (DW1) N main attack + 1 DW attack.
Dual Wield 2 (DW2) 2 main attacks (1d6+5+1d6 at lvl1). With extra attack you a doing 4 attacks per round.
So, the numbers are basicaly close to each other. Pros of 2H - you have nice dmg, you can 1 hand free, you can do grapples, need only 1 weapon, you can still stuck PAM, BA from GWM, etc..
Pros of DW1 - more attacks, slightly more dmg. 1 BA attack if you spent you Action on something else. Cons - no hands free
Pros of DW2 - more attacks, more dmg. Both DW1 and DW2 benefits more from effects per attack (like Hex, Hunter's Mark). Both needs x2 more weapons, that means more attunement etc..
Conclusion. This is my two ways of fixing Dual Wielding without hurting the balance of the game. I didnt count all dps for every scenario, but for me it seems now, you can use DW, have almoust as much of ulitily as 2H and dont lose DPS so dramatically as you did before. Want to head you opinion guys, what do you think needs balance\adjustments, do you like the idea at all?
I like a more simple version of N1 personally, just rolling the BA attack into the Attack action. I'd hesitate to just allow the BA attacks along with non-Attack actions, I think that could be pretty strong and enables a lot of play that doesn't have a lot to do with TWF, like charging. Other combos like cantrip + attack is intentionally reserved for EKs and Bladesingers and I don't think anyone should just be able to do it by wielding two weapons.
N2 gets a little out of hand when you add Hunter's Mark or Hex or anything else that adds damage per hit.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I agree. N1 is probably more agreeable.
My only good homebrews: Races, Subclasses.
An aspiring DM and Homebrewer. Ask me if you need anything.
Yeah, may be you are right. I should consider BA attacks along with non-Attack actions as Two-Weapon fightning style, or separate feat
I have a fix of my own that carves out a slightly different niche for TWF, rather than just being a DPR style.
Two-Weapon Fighting
When wielding a one-handed weapon, you can equip a parrying blade / main gauche in your offhand. Any time you make a weapon attack, you can make an attack with the parrying blade as part of your action. The number of attacks scale with how many attacks you have.
Parrying Blades (Light, Finesse, Thrown)
1d4 piercing damage, +1 AC
Weapon enchantments makes the damage count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunities, but do not increase the damage. Enchantment bonuses increases the AC value of the parrying blade, as well as the chance to hit.
Example:
Parrying blade +1
1d4 magical piercing damage, +2 AC, +1 to hit
Two-Weapon Fighting Style
When wielding a parrying blade, you can use your reaction to impose disadvantage on a melee attack against you.
I don't like the parrying blade option bc it's dictating to the player how their character attacks and what weapons they need to use even moreso than what the rules dictates... no light axes, hammers, etc. And since it's a d4 weapon it's even weaker than the d6 options, where the problem is that two weapon fighting doesn't scale well. And negates using non-light weapons with the feat...
The idea is that TWF shouldn't compete directly with 2handed as a damage dealing option, because it generally loses out on that exchange due to action economy issues and being dependent on the fighting style. I'm also a proponent of making rapier+dagger the default dual wielding option because that's the style that seems to have been actually used at some point.
It is meant to be a balance between offense and defense that still generally scale the best with classes like Ranger and Rogue. Ranger due to more triggers for Hunter's Mark (at lvl 5 that's potentially 4d6 extra damage per turn) and Rogues for the 2 chances to trigger Sneak Attack. Neither would infringe on their action economy either, since the off-hand attack in my system is not tied to your bonus action. It is just a free addition to any melee weapon attack you make, including with blade cantrips. So they'd still get to use bonus actions for other things, like putting up Hunter's Mark or Cunning Action.
Of course, it doesn't work with the current Dual Wielder feat, but it wasn't meant to.