Greetings, friends! I am in the process of planning my third 5e campaign. I have learned a lot about the system, and the places where I think it doesn't work well (there are many, many places where it works incredibly well!) So far, here's my thinking--based on real play--to make it feel less like a Marvel movie and more like an OSR game:
1. Gritty realism re: hit point and spell recovery.
2. Low numbers of magic items available (consumables are fine, like potions, but not may enchanted weapons or items).
3. Slow level progression.
Coming up next:
1. No offensive cantrips
2. Limited classes and subclasses (no frigging warlocks, for example)
3. Reduced class features and traits: case by case basis
4. Limited spell choices (i.e. a few spells in a spellbook, but no access to the entire lists. Spells are gained through game play)
I have found these tweaks to make the game more balanced. As DM, I have been astonished, and a bit overwhelmed at times, by the powers the PCs have. I am hoping that continuing to press and prod and poke the rules will make the game more enjoyable for me, and for my players. Having come from a 2e background as a DM, and a 3e player, it's been a bit of an adjustment.
Because I am a nice man, I let them take double hit points level one. I'm not that mean...
Any further suggestions or thoughts would be me most appreciated. Has anyone else tried any of this, or other things?
While you certainly can play any type of D&D game, this feels like a major departure from the rules as well as the spirit of the game. Have you discussed the drastic house-rules with you potential players? Are they onboard? And what is the impetus for weakening the PC's, especially the spellcasters?
If its a challenge you are interested in, consider making your life easier by just throwing hard and deadly encounters at the party. Or, you could use the rules for "Slow Healing" in the DMG (see at end or here: Optional Rule - Slow Healing). Together, any group of PC's will face an arduous epic journey, fraught with peril and... lots of death.
Slow Natural Healing
Characters don’t regain hit points at the end of a long rest. Instead, a character can spend Hit Dice to heal at the end of a long rest, just as with a short rest.
This optional rule prolongs the amount of time that characters need to recover from their wounds without the benefits of magical healing and works well for grittier, more realistic campaigns.
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Remember there are Rules as Written (RAW), Rules as Intended (RAI), and Rules as Fun (RAF). There's some great RAW, RAI, and RAF here... please check in with your DM to determine how they want to adjudicate the RAW/RAI/RAF for your game.
I have played 1e, 2e, 3e, and now 5e. During short rests, they can spend hit dice. When they run out, they are SOL until they can take a long rest. Since I play with good buddies (the same guys I've been playing with for 35 years!) we are all on board with innovating. I find the PCs overpowered in 5e, so I'm always trying to refine it. The spirit of the game is, make it work for your table, my friend!
I have played 1e, 2e, 3e, and now 5e. During short rests, they can spend hit dice. When they run out, they are SOL until they can take a long rest. Since I play with good buddies (the same guys I've been playing with for 35 years!) we are all on board with innovating. I find the PCs overpowered in 5e, so I'm always trying to refine it. The spirit of the game is, make it work for your table, my friend!
play how you like. If the group is ok with it and they have fun, carry on. Personally I think no offensive cantrips is too much. And I played 1E AD&D back in the early 80’s as well. So I know what it is like for a magic-user to use their spells and have to resort to a dagger with a d4 for hit points. if you are worried that cantrips are too much maybe have them scale slower or not at all?
I could be on board with limiting spell selection to similar to wizard (get 6 spells at level 1 and then 2 spells per level) or just allow them to have 4-6 spells at level 1 and they need to find the rest. You can use that for all the spellcasters. Half casters get 3 initially then have to find the rest. And Third casters start with 2, find the rest.
What don’t you like about warlocks that you want to ban them?
One thing to note here is that all of these changes seem heavily directed toward casters. Since the game is somewhat balanced, you are endangering that, especially if you aren't limiting feat access. Martials tend to put down a lot of damage, the power of casters tends to be in their ability to shut down without damage and in their versatility.
Obviously, you can do what you and your players like, but removing offensive cantrips is to return to one of the parts of old-era D&D that made low levels suck for many players: the one-use wizard, where you cast your one spell, and are utterly useless for the rest of the day. D&D5 sans cantrips gives pure spellcasters a bit more staying power, but only a bit. (There's a reason my character class of choice back in the day was Elf, and this was a good part of it.)
Also as a point removing class features changes the balance of those classes too. So some class will be under powered while others maybe over powered still. The classes as they are now are balanced around the powers and abilities they have before you tweek them. Also I highly recommend as a 30+ year DM/player leave the cantrips its so nice being a caster and NOT having to pretend to be a front line fighter cause your out of spells. The cantrip design was that to be like a fighter with there sword just in a caster version. I can get behind a bunch of the other things you listed though.
I'd like to hear more about Warlocks as well--because my feeling was that they were underpowered compared to casters with a regular progression. To be fair, I played with a 9 year old GOOlock who was not confident at using his spells, but even when he got access to Demiplane and Forcecage, he still seemed to find less potent usages that our Ranger 1/Sorcerer 16, Cleric 17, and my Bard 17...
I'd like to hear more about Warlocks as well--because my feeling was that they were underpowered compared to casters with a regular progression. To be fair, I played with a 9 year old GOOlock who was not confident at using his spells, but even when he got access to Demiplane and Forcecage, he still seemed to find less potent usages that our Ranger 1/Sorcerer 16, Cleric 17, and my Bard 17...
I mean... if you're already planning to ban attack cantrips to all casting classes, it makes sense that Warlocks would get banned outright.
I'm curious about how such a restrictive game would feel to play. I definitely do think that 5e is largely balanced in the party's favor... a DM has to build very aggressive and one-sided combats to really challenge most competent players. It is a little weird to fully take attack cantrips away from spellcasters, but hey... Wizards still have proficiency with Light Crossbows, and a Quarterstaff hits as hard as a martial weapon, so it's not like they're completely defenseless.
After DMing for years I'd say that the real problem is that the base game is kind of dumbed down for beginners or what I call casual players. The CR rating is based on this. If you have players that get online and watch all the Min/Max builds and advice from the super nerds and then cherry pick with multiclassing, then you really need to expect to beef up your monsters and content quite a bit. Problem is that most beginner DM's don't know how to do that and instead just play what is given and then wonder why their players feel OP. I'd educate yourself on how to build monsters and environment/content first and it will solve a lot of the problem. If you nerf players they get mad, so instead beef up your content. :)
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To know the light, you must sometimes experience the dark.
Like I said, I've been playing with these guys for--literally--decades. Very good friends. If they feel nerfed, they can bite my ass and take a turn DMing!
One thing I've done in my games that brings more limits is a better exhaustion mechanic that must be managed with gameplay and resting.
Resting
Resting is an important activity in everyday life. To regain ones composure, overcome exhaustion and regain spells and cooldowns depends on where and how you rest, whether you need to keep watch, and whether you're in a nice, safe comfy bed. All this factors in on how well you can sleep and regenerate.
Sleep breaks down as follows:
2 Short rests and 1 long rest per day. Fearful, long, and full are all long rests but vary depending on environment and situations.
Short Rest- 15 min to 1 hr of time to recompose yourself, tend to wounds and possibly overcome exhaustion. 2 per day.
*Roll any number of available hit dice to regain hit points and add Constitution modifier to each roll.
*Gain any other effects from short resting such as spells, cooldowns ect.
Fearful Long Rest - This is a long rest but in an uncomfortable place such as a dungeon or place of danger.
One 4 hr rest period to eat, drink, keep watch and recompose yourself by tending to wounds. 1 per day.
*Use any amount of available hit dice to their max plus Constitution Modifier for each die, to heal your wounds.
*Regain 1/4 of your maximum hit dice. (round up)
*Use any amount of available hit dice to their max plus Constitution Modifier for each die, to heal your wounds.
*Regain only half of your spells and cooldowns ect. from resting.
*You may spend any number of hit dice on a 1 to 1 basis to get rid of exhaustion.
Long Rest - This a is a long rest in a somewhat safe place but in the environment such as by the road.
Two 4 hr rest periods to eat, drink, keep watch and recompose yourself by tending to wounds. 1 per day.
First 4 hr block
*Use any amount of available hit dice to their max plus Constitution Modifier for each die, to heal your wounds.
Midpoint - Regain half of your maximum hit dice. (round up)
Second 4 hr block
*Use any amount of available hit dice to their max plus Constitution Modifier for each die, to heal your wounds.
*You may spend any number of hit dice on a 1 to 1 basis to get rid of exhaustion.
*Gain any other effects from long resting such as spells, cooldowns ect.
Full Long Rest - This is a long rest but at a safe, comfortable location such as an Inn or home. Has all the same effects as a long rest and you get 1 free Hit Die.
Exhaustion
Some special abilities, combat and environmental hazards and/or wear and tear from travel and adventuring, such as starvation and long-term effects of freezing or scorching temperatures, can lead to a special condition called exhaustion. Depending on the level of stress or the amount of strain physically or mentally an activity requires, could either give exhaustion to you or make you roll a constitution save in order to overcome or power your way through it. Mind over matter. The DM will advise.
Exhaustion is measured in 6 levels. Exhaustion stacks, therefore giving the player all the effects of exhaustion equal to the level they have acquired. An effect can give a creature 1 or more levels of exhaustion, as specified below:
Travel = Depends on distance and climb/hazards ect.
Weather = Extreme cold, heat or other hazards.
Combat = Long fights or back to back confrontations.
Effects = Some poisons or other effects could cause it.
Death / 0 Hit Points
When you die, your hit dice pool goes down to 1 and you gain 2 levels of exhaustion. You make a Constitution Save of 10 DC at the beginning of your turn to see if you can get up, or you must be healed, resurrected, first aid, Ect. by someone else.
When you get up, you gain your 1 hit die of health plus your Con modifier. Exhaustion stacks with multiple deaths or from previous applications.
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To know the light, you must sometimes experience the dark.
DCC sounds right up your alley actually. I'm not sure your caught the meaning of the first person who responded - they weren't asking if you've tried 1e, but rather suggesting that it's easier to just play 1e than it is to institute a laundry list of houserules to 5e in order to make it work like 1e.
But I think DCC is a great middle ground - a modern rulebook with a very old-school approach.
One downside I'll say though is that when PCs get depowered to the point that you're basically throwing them in a meat grinder (which was my DCC experience), you just don't ever get attached to them. I didn't care when my level 0 peasant died because I only knew him 15 minutes and he couldn't do anything special anyway. Making PCs too expendable trains your players to treat them as such - which can lead to apathetic, half-hearted roleplaying.
We'll see how it goes. We played a mini-funnel the other night, and I can tell you that running 4 characters at once while watching three of them get annihilated was...different. But I think you're right: 5e is a development of the D&D ruleset that's just not my cup of tea. I love the ease of play online, but I'm a Sword&Sorcery guy at heart, and 5e is high fantasy. Still: great game! Forever in my heart.
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Greetings, friends! I am in the process of planning my third 5e campaign. I have learned a lot about the system, and the places where I think it doesn't work well (there are many, many places where it works incredibly well!) So far, here's my thinking--based on real play--to make it feel less like a Marvel movie and more like an OSR game:
1. Gritty realism re: hit point and spell recovery.
2. Low numbers of magic items available (consumables are fine, like potions, but not may enchanted weapons or items).
3. Slow level progression.
Coming up next:
1. No offensive cantrips
2. Limited classes and subclasses (no frigging warlocks, for example)
3. Reduced class features and traits: case by case basis
4. Limited spell choices (i.e. a few spells in a spellbook, but no access to the entire lists. Spells are gained through game play)
I have found these tweaks to make the game more balanced. As DM, I have been astonished, and a bit overwhelmed at times, by the powers the PCs have. I am hoping that continuing to press and prod and poke the rules will make the game more enjoyable for me, and for my players. Having come from a 2e background as a DM, and a 3e player, it's been a bit of an adjustment.
Because I am a nice man, I let them take double hit points level one. I'm not that mean...
Any further suggestions or thoughts would be me most appreciated. Has anyone else tried any of this, or other things?
Have you considered playing 1e?
While you certainly can play any type of D&D game, this feels like a major departure from the rules as well as the spirit of the game. Have you discussed the drastic house-rules with you potential players? Are they onboard? And what is the impetus for weakening the PC's, especially the spellcasters?
If its a challenge you are interested in, consider making your life easier by just throwing hard and deadly encounters at the party. Or, you could use the rules for "Slow Healing" in the DMG (see at end or here: Optional Rule - Slow Healing). Together, any group of PC's will face an arduous epic journey, fraught with peril and... lots of death.
Slow Natural Healing
Characters don’t regain hit points at the end of a long rest. Instead, a character can spend Hit Dice to heal at the end of a long rest, just as with a short rest.
This optional rule prolongs the amount of time that characters need to recover from their wounds without the benefits of magical healing and works well for grittier, more realistic campaigns.
Remember there are Rules as Written (RAW), Rules as Intended (RAI), and Rules as Fun (RAF). There's some great RAW, RAI, and RAF here... please check in with your DM to determine how they want to adjudicate the RAW/RAI/RAF for your game.
I have played 1e, 2e, 3e, and now 5e. During short rests, they can spend hit dice. When they run out, they are SOL until they can take a long rest. Since I play with good buddies (the same guys I've been playing with for 35 years!) we are all on board with innovating. I find the PCs overpowered in 5e, so I'm always trying to refine it. The spirit of the game is, make it work for your table, my friend!
play how you like. If the group is ok with it and they have fun, carry on. Personally I think no offensive cantrips is too much. And I played 1E AD&D back in the early 80’s as well. So I know what it is like for a magic-user to use their spells and have to resort to a dagger with a d4 for hit points. if you are worried that cantrips are too much maybe have them scale slower or not at all?
I could be on board with limiting spell selection to similar to wizard (get 6 spells at level 1 and then 2 spells per level) or just allow them to have 4-6 spells at level 1 and they need to find the rest. You can use that for all the spellcasters. Half casters get 3 initially then have to find the rest. And Third casters start with 2, find the rest.
What don’t you like about warlocks that you want to ban them?
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
One thing to note here is that all of these changes seem heavily directed toward casters. Since the game is somewhat balanced, you are endangering that, especially if you aren't limiting feat access. Martials tend to put down a lot of damage, the power of casters tends to be in their ability to shut down without damage and in their versatility.
Obviously, you can do what you and your players like, but removing offensive cantrips is to return to one of the parts of old-era D&D that made low levels suck for many players: the one-use wizard, where you cast your one spell, and are utterly useless for the rest of the day. D&D5 sans cantrips gives pure spellcasters a bit more staying power, but only a bit. (There's a reason my character class of choice back in the day was Elf, and this was a good part of it.)
Also as a point removing class features changes the balance of those classes too. So some class will be under powered while others maybe over powered still. The classes as they are now are balanced around the powers and abilities they have before you tweek them. Also I highly recommend as a 30+ year DM/player leave the cantrips its so nice being a caster and NOT having to pretend to be a front line fighter cause your out of spells. The cantrip design was that to be like a fighter with there sword just in a caster version. I can get behind a bunch of the other things you listed though.
I'd like to hear more about Warlocks as well--because my feeling was that they were underpowered compared to casters with a regular progression. To be fair, I played with a 9 year old GOOlock who was not confident at using his spells, but even when he got access to Demiplane and Forcecage, he still seemed to find less potent usages that our Ranger 1/Sorcerer 16, Cleric 17, and my Bard 17...
I mean... if you're already planning to ban attack cantrips to all casting classes, it makes sense that Warlocks would get banned outright.
I'm curious about how such a restrictive game would feel to play. I definitely do think that 5e is largely balanced in the party's favor... a DM has to build very aggressive and one-sided combats to really challenge most competent players. It is a little weird to fully take attack cantrips away from spellcasters, but hey... Wizards still have proficiency with Light Crossbows, and a Quarterstaff hits as hard as a martial weapon, so it's not like they're completely defenseless.
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After DMing for years I'd say that the real problem is that the base game is kind of dumbed down for beginners or what I call casual players. The CR rating is based on this. If you have players that get online and watch all the Min/Max builds and advice from the super nerds and then cherry pick with multiclassing, then you really need to expect to beef up your monsters and content quite a bit. Problem is that most beginner DM's don't know how to do that and instead just play what is given and then wonder why their players feel OP. I'd educate yourself on how to build monsters and environment/content first and it will solve a lot of the problem. If you nerf players they get mad, so instead beef up your content. :)
To know the light, you must sometimes experience the dark.
Like I said, I've been playing with these guys for--literally--decades. Very good friends. If they feel nerfed, they can bite my ass and take a turn DMing!
One thing I've done in my games that brings more limits is a better exhaustion mechanic that must be managed with gameplay and resting.
Resting
Resting is an important activity in everyday life. To regain ones composure, overcome exhaustion and regain spells and cooldowns depends on where and how you rest, whether you need to keep watch, and whether you're in a nice, safe comfy bed. All this factors in on how well you can sleep and regenerate.
Sleep breaks down as follows:
2 Short rests and 1 long rest per day. Fearful, long, and full are all long rests but vary depending on environment and situations.
Short Rest- 15 min to 1 hr of time to recompose yourself, tend to wounds and possibly overcome exhaustion. 2 per day.
*Roll any number of available hit dice to regain hit points and add Constitution modifier to each roll.
*Gain any other effects from short resting such as spells, cooldowns ect.
Fearful Long Rest - This is a long rest but in an uncomfortable place such as a dungeon or place of danger.
One 4 hr rest period to eat, drink, keep watch and recompose yourself by tending to wounds. 1 per day.
*Use any amount of available hit dice to their max plus Constitution Modifier for each die, to heal your wounds.
*Regain 1/4 of your maximum hit dice. (round up)
*Use any amount of available hit dice to their max plus Constitution Modifier for each die, to heal your wounds.
*Regain only half of your spells and cooldowns ect. from resting.
*You may spend any number of hit dice on a 1 to 1 basis to get rid of exhaustion.
Long Rest - This a is a long rest in a somewhat safe place but in the environment such as by the road.
Two 4 hr rest periods to eat, drink, keep watch and recompose yourself by tending to wounds. 1 per day.
First 4 hr block
*Use any amount of available hit dice to their max plus Constitution Modifier for each die, to heal your wounds.
Midpoint - Regain half of your maximum hit dice. (round up)
Second 4 hr block
*Use any amount of available hit dice to their max plus Constitution Modifier for each die, to heal your wounds.
*You may spend any number of hit dice on a 1 to 1 basis to get rid of exhaustion.
*Gain any other effects from long resting such as spells, cooldowns ect.
Full Long Rest - This is a long rest but at a safe, comfortable location such as an Inn or home. Has all the same effects as a long rest and you get 1 free Hit Die.
Exhaustion
Some special abilities, combat and environmental hazards and/or wear and tear from travel and adventuring, such as starvation and long-term effects of freezing or scorching temperatures, can lead to a special condition called exhaustion. Depending on the level of stress or the amount of strain physically or mentally an activity requires, could either give exhaustion to you or make you roll a constitution save in order to overcome or power your way through it. Mind over matter. The DM will advise.
Exhaustion is measured in 6 levels. Exhaustion stacks, therefore giving the player all the effects of exhaustion equal to the level they have acquired. An effect can give a creature 1 or more levels of exhaustion, as specified below:
Exhaustion
Exhaustion Triggers (General Overview)
Death = 2 Exhaustion
Travel = Depends on distance and climb/hazards ect.
Weather = Extreme cold, heat or other hazards.
Combat = Long fights or back to back confrontations.
Effects = Some poisons or other effects could cause it.
Death / 0 Hit Points
When you die, your hit dice pool goes down to 1 and you gain 2 levels of exhaustion. You make a Constitution Save of 10 DC at the beginning of your turn to see if you can get up, or you must be healed, resurrected, first aid, Ect. by someone else.
When you get up, you gain your 1 hit die of health plus your Con modifier. Exhaustion stacks with multiple deaths or from previous applications.
To know the light, you must sometimes experience the dark.
Most of my group wants to switch to DCC (Dungeon Crawl Classics) so this may end up being a moot point. Thanks for all of the suggestions, friends.
DCC sounds right up your alley actually. I'm not sure your caught the meaning of the first person who responded - they weren't asking if you've tried 1e, but rather suggesting that it's easier to just play 1e than it is to institute a laundry list of houserules to 5e in order to make it work like 1e.
But I think DCC is a great middle ground - a modern rulebook with a very old-school approach.
One downside I'll say though is that when PCs get depowered to the point that you're basically throwing them in a meat grinder (which was my DCC experience), you just don't ever get attached to them. I didn't care when my level 0 peasant died because I only knew him 15 minutes and he couldn't do anything special anyway. Making PCs too expendable trains your players to treat them as such - which can lead to apathetic, half-hearted roleplaying.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
We'll see how it goes. We played a mini-funnel the other night, and I can tell you that running 4 characters at once while watching three of them get annihilated was...different. But I think you're right: 5e is a development of the D&D ruleset that's just not my cup of tea. I love the ease of play online, but I'm a Sword&Sorcery guy at heart, and 5e is high fantasy. Still: great game! Forever in my heart.