You’ve learned to put the weight of a weapon to your advantage, letting its momentum empower your strikes. You gain the following benefits:
On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one, you can make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action.
Before you make a melee attack with a heavy weapon that you are proficient with, you can choose to take a –5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack’s damage.
The 1st ability granted by this feat doesn't say it has to be a heavy weapon.
What if you had the Elven Accuracy feat and 1 level in Hexblade? You could roll 3 times on a d20 and if any of them are a 19 or 20 you crit. (or 3 levels Fighter and take Champion to get the 19 or 20 crit)
Right off the top of my head... the best build I can come up with is something like this:
Start as a level 1 Rogue. At level 2 take Fighter and get Second Wind. At level 3 take Fighter and get Action Surge. At level 4 take Fighter and take Champion to get the improved critical feature. At level 5 go back to Rogue and get Cunning Action. At level 6 take Rogue and take Assassin.
For your race pick something that qualifies you for the feat Elven Accuracy.
Any ideas for improving on this build? Right away I can see some thinking about taking the Fighter to 5th level (4th level ASI, and 5th level Extra Attacks)
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
The 1st ability granted by this feat doesn't say it has to be a heavy weapon.
Correct. But that is the second best ability granted by the feat, so I can't recommend taking this feat for builds that aren't going to use heavy weapons.
If you are going to build a crit fishing character, it is probably best to go half-orc paladin with hexblade dip.
Any ideas for improving on this build? Right away I can see some thinking about taking the Fighter to 5th level (4th level ASI, and 5th level Extra Attacks)
Many GMs will rule against this, despite firm rooting in the RAW, because a) it's blatantly overpowered and b) Jeremy Crawford has tweeted against it, meaning we know at least in his opinion it violates RAI. However, RAW is that you can use GWM (both bullets) while wielding a longbow in melee.
Also, the PHB contradicts itself. On page 14, it says melee weapons use str and ranged weapons use dex. On page... I forget, but it's in the attacks section, it says that you pick the attack stat based on the attack type, not the weapon type. The only solution is a GM ruling on which PHB rule to enforce. Under p14, a longbow wielded in melee uses DEX.
Using a ranged weapon in melee imposes disadvantage... does it not?
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Using a ranged weapon in melee imposes disadvantage... does it not?
No. A ranged attack gets disadvantage when used close to the enemy (see Davyd's post). A ranged weapon used to make a melee attack does not - instead, you use the Improvised Weapon rules.
I think the main problem with this build is that, if you're primarily a Rogue, then the main use of a single additional Weapon Attack as a Bonus action is giving yourself another opportunity to trigger a Sneak Attack, just in case you missed with your main attack. You can accomplish that easily without needing to first land a critical hit or kill an enemy just by carrying a light weapon in your off-hand. If you really want to, say, go half-elf and focus on crit-fishing with GWM and Elven Accuracy, I would recommend dropping Rogue and instead taking two levels of Barbarian to get Reckless Attack. That way you can give yourself advantage at-will, which you can combine with the -5 to-hit option of GWM to massively boost your attacks, since getting 3 rolls for every attack drastically reduces the odds of missing, and when you do crit you still throw out another big swing of a heavy weapon at advantage.
I think the main problem with this build is that, if you're primarily a Rogue, then the main use of a single additional Weapon Attack as a Bonus action is giving yourself another opportunity to trigger a Sneak Attack, just in case you missed with your main attack. You can accomplish that easily without needing to first land a critical hit or kill an enemy just by carrying a light weapon in your off-hand. If you really want to, say, go half-elf and focus on crit-fishing with GWM and Elven Accuracy, I would recommend dropping Rogue and instead taking two levels of Barbarian to get Reckless Attack. That way you can give yourself advantage at-will, which you can combine with the -5 to-hit option of GWM to massively boost your attacks, since getting 3 rolls for every attack drastically reduces the odds of missing, and when you do crit you still throw out another big swing of a heavy weapon at advantage.
Reckless Attack can't be legally combined with Elven Accuracy.
I think the main problem with this build is that, if you're primarily a Rogue, then the main use of a single additional Weapon Attack as a Bonus action is giving yourself another opportunity to trigger a Sneak Attack, just in case you missed with your main attack. You can accomplish that easily without needing to first land a critical hit or kill an enemy just by carrying a light weapon in your off-hand. If you really want to, say, go half-elf and focus on crit-fishing with GWM and Elven Accuracy, I would recommend dropping Rogue and instead taking two levels of Barbarian to get Reckless Attack. That way you can give yourself advantage at-will, which you can combine with the -5 to-hit option of GWM to massively boost your attacks, since getting 3 rolls for every attack drastically reduces the odds of missing, and when you do crit you still throw out another big swing of a heavy weapon at advantage.
Reckless Attack can't be legally combined with Elven Accuracy.
Ah, good point. I forgot that Elven Accuracy had specific limits on what kind of attacks it applies to. Hmmm, in that case now I'm thinking Samurai might be a better combo of GWM and EA. Overall, though, it does still feel like a lot to invest in a not particularly useful combo.
Any ideas for improving on this build? Right away I can see some thinking about taking the Fighter to 5th level (4th level ASI, and 5th level Extra Attacks)
Many GMs will rule against this, despite firm rooting in the RAW, because a) it's blatantly overpowered and b) Jeremy Crawford has tweeted against it, meaning we know at least in his opinion it violates RAI. However, RAW is that you can use GWM (both bullets) while wielding a longbow in melee.
Also, the PHB contradicts itself. On page 14, it says melee weapons use str and ranged weapons use dex. On page... I forget, but it's in the attacks section, it says that you pick the attack stat based on the attack type, not the weapon type. The only solution is a GM ruling on which PHB rule to enforce. Under p14, a longbow wielded in melee uses DEX.
Hmmm. This is confusing... what’s blatantly overpowered and what tweet are you referring to?
Nothing necessarily wrong with the build, but making a single melee attack as a bonus action is not really that useful a thing. There are pliantly of class abilities that let you do that anyway or class abilities that require a bonus action to do better things (For example, the previously mentioned Samurai Fighting Spirit ability that lets you have advantage on all attack roles made in this turn) Because of that, biased on the build you have put forward I don't see a reason why you would even need great weapon master. Using a Longbow as an improvised weapon would deal 1d4 damage and no more (unless you could get sneak attack or other damage mods onto it) which doesn't seem worth taking a feat for.
Also, your build requires two feats. To the best of my knowledge there is only one race (Pre Tasha's) that lets you start with a feat, that being the Variant Human, which would make you unable to take Elvan accuracy at all. I'm not sure how Tasha's works with starting with Feats, but if you could be an Elvan race that starts with a feat that would mean you would have to choose which feat to take until level 7, where you would get a 4th level in either class you've talked about and can take the other feat. Assuming your DM doesn't allow you to have an extra feat for free, of course.
Hmmm. This is confusing... what’s blatantly overpowered and what tweet are you referring to?
I'm very bad at finding JC tweets, but I can go digging for it if you want. I'm certain I saw it somewhere.
The big overpowering problem with letting GWM apply to hitting people in melee with a longbow is that because GWM applies to melee attacks with heavy weapons (so RAW it applies to longbow clubbing) and Sharpshooter applies to all attacks made with ranged weapons (so RAW it applies to longbow clubbing) they stack. If your GM has chosen p194 instead of p14 for adjudicating what stat is used (p14 says Dex, p194 says Str), you can combine this with Reckless Attack, and if your GM has chosen p14 instead of p194, you can combine this with Elven Accuracy. The Archery fighting style will apply to the attack, since it's worded like sharpshooter.
So in short order you can be rolling 1d20 with advantage (potentially super advantage) + stat + prof + 2 - 10 to hit for 1d4+stat+20+sneak attack damage. That's nuts.
Hmmm. This is confusing... what’s blatantly overpowered and what tweet are you referring to?
I'm very bad at finding JC tweets, but I can go digging for it if you want. I'm certain I saw it somewhere.
The big overpowering problem with letting GWM apply to hitting people in melee with a longbow is that because GWM applies to melee attacks with heavy weapons (so RAW it applies to longbow clubbing) and Sharpshooter applies to all attacks made with ranged weapons (so RAW it applies to longbow clubbing) they stack. If your GM has chosen p194 instead of p14 for adjudicating what stat is used (p14 says Dex, p194 says Str), you can combine this with Reckless Attack, and if your GM has chosen p14 instead of p194, you can combine this with Elven Accuracy. The Archery fighting style will apply to the attack, since it's worded like sharpshooter.
So in short order you can be rolling 1d20 with advantage (potentially super advantage) + stat + prof + 2 - 10 to hit for 1d4+stat+20+sneak attack damage. That's nuts.
Oh... I see what you mean, but where did he mentioned longbow? Did he edit his post?
Hmmm. This is confusing... what’s blatantly overpowered and what tweet are you referring to?
I'm very bad at finding JC tweets, but I can go digging for it if you want. I'm certain I saw it somewhere.
The big overpowering problem with letting GWM apply to hitting people in melee with a longbow is that because GWM applies to melee attacks with heavy weapons (so RAW it applies to longbow clubbing) and Sharpshooter applies to all attacks made with ranged weapons (so RAW it applies to longbow clubbing) they stack. If your GM has chosen p194 instead of p14 for adjudicating what stat is used (p14 says Dex, p194 says Str), you can combine this with Reckless Attack, and if your GM has chosen p14 instead of p194, you can combine this with Elven Accuracy. The Archery fighting style will apply to the attack, since it's worded like sharpshooter.
So in short order you can be rolling 1d20 with advantage (potentially super advantage) + stat + prof + 2 - 10 to hit for 1d4+stat+20+sneak attack damage. That's nuts.
Sharp shooter does specify that you have to be proficient with the weapon and using a bow as a melee weapon makes it an improvised weapon which most of the time you wont have proficiency with, unless you take an additional feat to be proficient with it IE Tavern Brawler. At that point you have at least three feats working together to make this possible. As much damage as that is potentially, it takes a lot to get working.
Sharp shooter does specify that you have to be proficient with the weapon and using a bow as a melee weapon makes it an improvised weapon which most of the time you wont have proficiency with, unless you take an additional feat to be proficient with it IE Tavern Brawler. At that point you have at least three feats working together to make this possible. As much damage as that is potentially, it takes a lot to get working.
This is actually not a rule - when you throw a non-thrown melee weapon or club someone in melee with a ranged weapon, no rule in the game causes you to lose proficiency. I think this popular misconception comes from the fact that you're not proficient in general improvised weapons - e.g. if you throw a fork at someone, there's no way to have proficiency outside of that feat, because forks aren't simple or martial weapons (or firearms!). But if you're proficient in a weapon and then make that weapon improvised, no rule in the game causes you to lose proficiency.
I mean, I don't know how learning to shoot a bow translates to hitting someone over the head with a bow or how learning to use a broadsword translates into throwing it at someone 20 feet away. It just isn't the proper use of the weapon so it would make sense to me that you don't have proficiency with it because you are using it in a way that you are not trained in. Just because I know how to cook with a frying pan doesn't mean I would be good at bashing someone over the head with it.
Regardless, The rules say that it becomes an improvised weapon, and since you don't get proficiency with improvised weapons unless you have the tavern brawler feat, you don't have proficiency with the weapon when it is being used that way. It changes to become a different type of weapon. It is like how a dagger is both a melee and a range weapon. When used in Melee it is considered to be a melee weapon and get those benefits, but when ranged it becomes a ranged weapon and gets those benefits.
Bows make ranged attacks. If you are using it to make a melee attack, it is not a bow. It's an improvised weapon that is bow-shaped. Or if you use the recommendation to liken improvised weapons to real weapons that are shaped similarly, it could be a staff or club. Either way, you don't get to keep the properties of a weapon when you use it as an improvised weapon.
I mean, I don't know how learning to shoot a bow translates to hitting someone over the head with a bow or how learning to use a broadsword translates into throwing it at someone 20 feet away. It just isn't the proper use of the weapon so it would make sense to me that you don't have proficiency with it because you are using it in a way that you are not trained in. Just because I know how to cook with a frying pan doesn't mean I would be good at bashing someone over the head with it.
Regardless, The rules say that it becomes an improvised weapon, and since you don't get proficiency with improvised weapons unless you have the great weapon master feat, you don't have proficiency with the weapon when it is being used that way. It changes to become a different type of weapon. It is like how a dagger is both a melee and a range weapon. When used in Melee it is considered to be a melee weapon and get those benefits, but when ranged it becomes a ranged weapon and gets those benefits.
This is explicitly false, and it's important that this is explicitly false. A thrown dagger is a melee weapon making a ranged attack. That's why the Archery style applies to longbow clubbing.
Does the Archery fighting style work with a melee weapon that you throw?
No, the Archery feature benefits ranged weapons. A melee weapon, such as a dagger or handaxe, is still a melee weapon when you make a ranged attack with it.
Great Weapon Master
You’ve learned to put the weight of a weapon to your advantage, letting its momentum empower your strikes. You gain the following benefits:
The 1st ability granted by this feat doesn't say it has to be a heavy weapon.
What if you had the Elven Accuracy feat and 1 level in Hexblade? You could roll 3 times on a d20 and if any of them are a 19 or 20 you crit. (or 3 levels Fighter and take Champion to get the 19 or 20 crit)
Right off the top of my head... the best build I can come up with is something like this:
Start as a level 1 Rogue.
At level 2 take Fighter and get Second Wind.
At level 3 take Fighter and get Action Surge.
At level 4 take Fighter and take Champion to get the improved critical feature.
At level 5 go back to Rogue and get Cunning Action.
At level 6 take Rogue and take Assassin.
For your race pick something that qualifies you for the feat Elven Accuracy.
Any ideas for improving on this build? Right away I can see some thinking about taking the Fighter to 5th level (4th level ASI, and 5th level Extra Attacks)
Correct. But that is the second best ability granted by the feat, so I can't recommend taking this feat for builds that aren't going to use heavy weapons.
If you are going to build a crit fishing character, it is probably best to go half-orc paladin with hexblade dip.
Many GMs will rule against this, despite firm rooting in the RAW, because a) it's blatantly overpowered and b) Jeremy Crawford has tweeted against it, meaning we know at least in his opinion it violates RAI. However, RAW is that you can use GWM (both bullets) while wielding a longbow in melee.
Also, the PHB contradicts itself. On page 14, it says melee weapons use str and ranged weapons use dex. On page... I forget, but it's in the attacks section, it says that you pick the attack stat based on the attack type, not the weapon type. The only solution is a GM ruling on which PHB rule to enforce. Under p14, a longbow wielded in melee uses DEX.
Using a ranged weapon in melee imposes disadvantage... does it not?
Ranged attacks made when there is a hostile creature within 5 feet are made with disadvantage, yeah
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No. A ranged attack gets disadvantage when used close to the enemy (see Davyd's post). A ranged weapon used to make a melee attack does not - instead, you use the Improvised Weapon rules.
I think the main problem with this build is that, if you're primarily a Rogue, then the main use of a single additional Weapon Attack as a Bonus action is giving yourself another opportunity to trigger a Sneak Attack, just in case you missed with your main attack. You can accomplish that easily without needing to first land a critical hit or kill an enemy just by carrying a light weapon in your off-hand. If you really want to, say, go half-elf and focus on crit-fishing with GWM and Elven Accuracy, I would recommend dropping Rogue and instead taking two levels of Barbarian to get Reckless Attack. That way you can give yourself advantage at-will, which you can combine with the -5 to-hit option of GWM to massively boost your attacks, since getting 3 rolls for every attack drastically reduces the odds of missing, and when you do crit you still throw out another big swing of a heavy weapon at advantage.
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Reckless Attack can't be legally combined with Elven Accuracy.
Ah, good point. I forgot that Elven Accuracy had specific limits on what kind of attacks it applies to. Hmmm, in that case now I'm thinking Samurai might be a better combo of GWM and EA. Overall, though, it does still feel like a lot to invest in a not particularly useful combo.
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Hmmm. This is confusing... what’s blatantly overpowered and what tweet are you referring to?
Nothing necessarily wrong with the build, but making a single melee attack as a bonus action is not really that useful a thing. There are pliantly of class abilities that let you do that anyway or class abilities that require a bonus action to do better things (For example, the previously mentioned Samurai Fighting Spirit ability that lets you have advantage on all attack roles made in this turn) Because of that, biased on the build you have put forward I don't see a reason why you would even need great weapon master. Using a Longbow as an improvised weapon would deal 1d4 damage and no more (unless you could get sneak attack or other damage mods onto it) which doesn't seem worth taking a feat for.
Also, your build requires two feats. To the best of my knowledge there is only one race (Pre Tasha's) that lets you start with a feat, that being the Variant Human, which would make you unable to take Elvan accuracy at all. I'm not sure how Tasha's works with starting with Feats, but if you could be an Elvan race that starts with a feat that would mean you would have to choose which feat to take until level 7, where you would get a 4th level in either class you've talked about and can take the other feat. Assuming your DM doesn't allow you to have an extra feat for free, of course.
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"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
I'm very bad at finding JC tweets, but I can go digging for it if you want. I'm certain I saw it somewhere.
The big overpowering problem with letting GWM apply to hitting people in melee with a longbow is that because GWM applies to melee attacks with heavy weapons (so RAW it applies to longbow clubbing) and Sharpshooter applies to all attacks made with ranged weapons (so RAW it applies to longbow clubbing) they stack. If your GM has chosen p194 instead of p14 for adjudicating what stat is used (p14 says Dex, p194 says Str), you can combine this with Reckless Attack, and if your GM has chosen p14 instead of p194, you can combine this with Elven Accuracy. The Archery fighting style will apply to the attack, since it's worded like sharpshooter.
So in short order you can be rolling 1d20 with advantage (potentially super advantage) + stat + prof + 2 - 10 to hit for 1d4+stat+20+sneak attack damage. That's nuts.
Oh... I see what you mean, but where did he mentioned longbow? Did he edit his post?
Sharp shooter does specify that you have to be proficient with the weapon and using a bow as a melee weapon makes it an improvised weapon which most of the time you wont have proficiency with, unless you take an additional feat to be proficient with it IE Tavern Brawler. At that point you have at least three feats working together to make this possible. As much damage as that is potentially, it takes a lot to get working.
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"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
This is actually not a rule - when you throw a non-thrown melee weapon or club someone in melee with a ranged weapon, no rule in the game causes you to lose proficiency. I think this popular misconception comes from the fact that you're not proficient in general improvised weapons - e.g. if you throw a fork at someone, there's no way to have proficiency outside of that feat, because forks aren't simple or martial weapons (or firearms!). But if you're proficient in a weapon and then make that weapon improvised, no rule in the game causes you to lose proficiency.
I mean, I don't know how learning to shoot a bow translates to hitting someone over the head with a bow or how learning to use a broadsword translates into throwing it at someone 20 feet away. It just isn't the proper use of the weapon so it would make sense to me that you don't have proficiency with it because you are using it in a way that you are not trained in. Just because I know how to cook with a frying pan doesn't mean I would be good at bashing someone over the head with it.
Regardless, The rules say that it becomes an improvised weapon, and since you don't get proficiency with improvised weapons unless you have the tavern brawler feat, you don't have proficiency with the weapon when it is being used that way. It changes to become a different type of weapon. It is like how a dagger is both a melee and a range weapon. When used in Melee it is considered to be a melee weapon and get those benefits, but when ranged it becomes a ranged weapon and gets those benefits.
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"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
Bows make ranged attacks. If you are using it to make a melee attack, it is not a bow. It's an improvised weapon that is bow-shaped. Or if you use the recommendation to liken improvised weapons to real weapons that are shaped similarly, it could be a staff or club. Either way, you don't get to keep the properties of a weapon when you use it as an improvised weapon.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
This is explicitly false, and it's important that this is explicitly false. A thrown dagger is a melee weapon making a ranged attack. That's why the Archery style applies to longbow clubbing.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#ClassFeatures
Does the Archery fighting style work with a melee weapon that you throw?
No, the Archery feature benefits ranged weapons. A melee weapon, such as a dagger or handaxe, is still a melee weapon when you make a ranged attack with it.
Let me help you out.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Yes, this was it, thank you.