I would let the player say how far they want the character to throw someone and how they want to go about it, and then come up with an appropriate DC for the attempt.
I would let the player say how far they want the character to throw someone and how they want to go about it, and then come up with an appropriate DC for the attempt.
This is pretty much what I would do as well, but just a simple over hand through (or push) would be about as effective as trying to throw a balloon which is to say not very.
edit: Drag from the air resistance would also explain the need to pull yourself along at a climbing speed as well. Inertia is quickly overcome by the friction of the air around you since you don't have the weight (mass) to keep you going.
We're talking well outside the written rules once again, but it just seems really weird to me that levitating a creature would more or less lock them to a vertical cylinder or movement. I know the actual levitated person needs a solid object to push or pull from for self-propulsion, but I don't see why they would have additional resistance to outside forces while in the levitated position.
We're talking well outside the written rules once again, but it just seems really weird to me that levitating a creature would more or less lock them to a vertical cylinder or movement. I know the actual levitated person needs a solid object to push or pull from for self-propulsion, but I don't see why they would have additional resistance to outside forces while in the levitated position.
This is very subjective, but it's how I see it.
Well the simple answer is Magic. It has a weird effect on physics.
edit: Drag from the air resistance would also explain the need to pull yourself along at a climbing speed as well. Inertia is quickly overcome by the friction of the air around you since you don't have the weight (mass) to keep you going.
Drag from air resistance in no way explains that need, being weightless won't increase your air drag at all and air resistance isn't very relevant at walking speeds.
We're talking well outside the written rules once again, but it just seems really weird to me that levitating a creature would more or less lock them to a vertical cylinder or movement.
So are you saying that Mage Hand can only open doors that weight less than 20 pounds? Wooden doors weight significantly more than that, and almost all doors in D&D would be wooden.
If they can, how is moving a door on a hinge any different than moving a person suspended in air?
I think you'll find that I already answered that and we've moved on. It is different because the they are different rules. Opening a door is not the same as pushing it into a different space.
Our table decided that Levitate makes you effectively weightless.
So if you're weightless, how far can somebody throw you?
This and several of the posts below it show the misunderstanding of mass and weight so I’ll try again. as Golaryn’s group decided when levitated you are effectively weightless. But not massless, levitation creates a force opposite in direction to gravity that acts on your mass. Initially the force is actually greater than the force of gravity so it not only negates gravity but actually pushes you upward ( on a spring scale you would actually have a negative weight), once you reach max height the spell only creates enough force to balance gravity (leaving that spring scale showing a weight of 0 - you are weightless). Unfortunately you are not massless so since the spell only provides a vertical force opposing gravity it can’t move you horizontally. Any force trying to move you horizontally still has to work against your full mass (the other name for mass is inertia) so any horizontal force has to overcome your inertia before it moves you. A strong force could move you but it has to be really strong - how far someone could throw you is the same distance they could throw you if you were on the ground since the inertia and force applied are the same.
We're talking well outside the written rules once again, but it just seems really weird to me that levitating a creature would more or less lock them to a vertical cylinder or movement.
Because that's how the spell is written.
But that isn't how the spell is written.
One creature or loose object of your choice that you can see within range rises vertically, up to 20 feet, and remains suspended there for the duration. The spell can levitate a target that weighs up to 500 pounds. An unwilling creature that succeeds on a Constitution saving throw is unaffected.
The target can move only by pushing or pulling against a fixed object or surface within reach (such as a wall or a ceiling), which allows it to move as if it were climbing. You can change the target's altitude by up to 20 feet in either direction on your turn. If you are the target, you can move up or down as part of your move. Otherwise, you can use your action to move the target, which must remain within the spell's range.
When the spell ends, the target floats gently to the ground if it is still aloft.
It doesn't say anything at all about what kind of effect external lateral forces have upon you while you are levitating. It certainly doesn't say the levitated creature is locked to movement along the Y axis. Whether moving someone who is levitating requires more than 10 pounds of force is up for debate, but it is not a settled matter within the written rules.
I will consider a few possibilities that have come up and also what I think of them:
A levitating creature is weightless in terms of lateral movement. This is reasonable, but the DM has to establish just how weightless they want to be. Can someone come up and shove them across the room like a puck on an air hockey table?
A levitating creature is not weightless and lateral movement should treat them as though they are on the ground in terms of shoving, dragging, etc. I don't like this solution and I don't feel it was intended, but I do admit it is quite simple in terms of applying existing rules to the levitating creature.
A levitating creature is not weightless, and they are locked to the Y axis unless they are in contact with a solid object. I don't like this solution, and I don't think it was intended. It's also just really weird and breaks verisimilitude for me.
A levitating creature is not weightless, but is also should not be treated as though they are on the ground. This is my personal preference. I would treat the levitating creature as though they are hanging on the end of a very large rope.
As for the original post in the thread, would the 10 pounds of pressure generated by mage hand (even this is an assumption based on the text of the mage hand spell, which RAW only applies to carrying up to 10 pounds) be enough to move someone in the fourth scenario laterally? Maybe. Maybe not. But what about the opposite? Let's say someone gets levitated, and I cast mage hand on my turn and park it right next to the levitated person. On their turn, can they try to shove off of it? Is the mage hand fixed in space, or can it be shoved away? Is it solid? What if the mage hand is holding a shield or a bucket or an unlit torch or a pole? Can the levitated creature push off the item and move?
I think the discussion is a lot more nuanced and interesting than, "Because that's how the spell is written."
I will consider a few possibilities that have come up and also what I think of them:
A levitating creature is not weightless and lateral movement should treat them as though they are on the ground in terms of shoving, dragging, etc. I don't like this solution and I don't feel it was intended, but I do admit it is quite simple in terms of applying existing rules to the levitating creature.
As the spell doesn't say otherwise and all other solutions produce artifacts that are inconsistent with the spell as written (either too high mobility, or immunity to effects that you aren't supposed to be immune to) this is the correct interpretation.
As for the original post in the thread, would the 10 pounds of pressure generated by mage hand (even this is an assumption based on the text of the mage hand spell, which RAW only applies to carrying up to 10 pounds) be enough to move someone in the fourth scenario laterally? Maybe. Maybe not. But what about the opposite? Let's say someone gets levitated, and I cast mage hand on my turn and park it right next to the levitated person. On their turn, can they try to shove off of it? Is the mage hand fixed in space, or can it be shoved away? Is it solid? What if the mage hand is holding a shield or a bucket or an unlit torch or a pole? Can the levitated creature push off the item and move?
I know I'm treading in dangerous waters here but my take is that Mage Hand IS a solid mass otherwise it is just a visual representation of the spell Telekinisis. I'd allow Mage Hand to carry a shield but to what effect the shield could be used may be limited though I can see abuse of a player TRYING to justify using it to get 1/2 cover by the Hand with shield hovering in front of their character. In other cases I can think of as mass I could see using Mage Hand to knock or open a door both, to me, need some form of mass to establish contact with the wood or door handle.
As for the original post in the thread, would the 10 pounds of pressure generated by mage hand (even this is an assumption based on the text of the mage hand spell, which RAW only applies to carrying up to 10 pounds) be enough to move someone in the fourth scenario laterally? Maybe. Maybe not. But what about the opposite? Let's say someone gets levitated, and I cast mage hand on my turn and park it right next to the levitated person. On their turn, can they try to shove off of it? Is the mage hand fixed in space, or can it be shoved away? Is it solid? What if the mage hand is holding a shield or a bucket or an unlit torch or a pole? Can the levitated creature push off the item and move?
I know I'm treading in dangerous waters here but my take is that Mage Hand IS a solid mass otherwise it is just a visual representation of Telekinisis. I'd allow Mage Hand to carry a shield but to what effect the shield could be used may be limited though I can see abuse of a player TRYING to justify using it to get 1/2 cover by the Hand with shield hovering in front of their character. In other cases I can think of as mass I could see using Mage Hand to knock or open a door both, to me, need some form of mass to establish contact with the wood or door handle.
Telekinesis Feat
...
You learn the mage hand cantrip. You can cast it without verbal or somatic components, and you can make the spectral hand invisible. If you already know this spell, its range increases by 30 feet when you cast it. Its spellcasting ability is the ability increased by this feat.
...
That seems to be literally what's happening. Telekinesis is "invisible mage hand".
As for the original post in the thread, would the 10 pounds of pressure generated by mage hand (even this is an assumption based on the text of the mage hand spell, which RAW only applies to carrying up to 10 pounds) be enough to move someone in the fourth scenario laterally? Maybe. Maybe not. But what about the opposite? Let's say someone gets levitated, and I cast mage hand on my turn and park it right next to the levitated person. On their turn, can they try to shove off of it? Is the mage hand fixed in space, or can it be shoved away? Is it solid? What if the mage hand is holding a shield or a bucket or an unlit torch or a pole? Can the levitated creature push off the item and move?
I know I'm treading in dangerous waters here but my take is that Mage Hand IS a solid mass otherwise it is just a visual representation of Telekinisis. I'd allow Mage Hand to carry a shield but to what effect the shield could be used may be limited though I can see abuse of a player TRYING to justify using it to get 1/2 cover by the Hand with shield hovering in front of their character. In other cases I can think of as mass I could see using Mage Hand to knock or open a door both, to me, need some form of mass to establish contact with the wood or door handle.
Telekinesis Feat
...
You learn the mage hand cantrip. You can cast it without verbal or somatic components, and you can make the spectral hand invisible. If you already know this spell, its range increases by 30 feet when you cast it. Its spellcasting ability is the ability increased by this feat.
...
That seems to be literally what's happening. Telekinesis is "invisible mage hand".
I was referring to the Telekinesis spell (I did not know that feat existed) which does not mention the mage hand representation like this feat does.
I honestly didn't think that this thread would create this much debate.
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About as far as they can throw anything else.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I think this is the simplest and most reasonable reading of the rule.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
About as far as you can throw a balloon or a feather.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I would let the player say how far they want the character to throw someone and how they want to go about it, and then come up with an appropriate DC for the attempt.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
This is pretty much what I would do as well, but just a simple over hand through (or push) would be about as effective as trying to throw a balloon which is to say not very.
edit: Drag from the air resistance would also explain the need to pull yourself along at a climbing speed as well. Inertia is quickly overcome by the friction of the air around you since you don't have the weight (mass) to keep you going.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
We're talking well outside the written rules once again, but it just seems really weird to me that levitating a creature would more or less lock them to a vertical cylinder or movement. I know the actual levitated person needs a solid object to push or pull from for self-propulsion, but I don't see why they would have additional resistance to outside forces while in the levitated position.
This is very subjective, but it's how I see it.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Well the simple answer is Magic. It has a weird effect on physics.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Drag from air resistance in no way explains that need, being weightless won't increase your air drag at all and air resistance isn't very relevant at walking speeds.
Because that's how the spell is written.
I think you'll find that I already answered that and we've moved on. It is different because the they are different rules. Opening a door is not the same as pushing it into a different space.
This and several of the posts below it show the misunderstanding of mass and weight so I’ll try again.
as Golaryn’s group decided when levitated you are effectively weightless. But not massless, levitation creates a force opposite in direction to gravity that acts on your mass. Initially the force is actually greater than the force of gravity so it not only negates gravity but actually pushes you upward ( on a spring scale you would actually have a negative weight), once you reach max height the spell only creates enough force to balance gravity (leaving that spring scale showing a weight of 0 - you are weightless). Unfortunately you are not massless so since the spell only provides a vertical force opposing gravity it can’t move you horizontally. Any force trying to move you horizontally still has to work against your full mass (the other name for mass is inertia) so any horizontal force has to overcome your inertia before it moves you. A strong force could move you but it has to be really strong - how far someone could throw you is the same distance they could throw you if you were on the ground since the inertia and force applied are the same.
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But that isn't how the spell is written.
It doesn't say anything at all about what kind of effect external lateral forces have upon you while you are levitating. It certainly doesn't say the levitated creature is locked to movement along the Y axis. Whether moving someone who is levitating requires more than 10 pounds of force is up for debate, but it is not a settled matter within the written rules.
I will consider a few possibilities that have come up and also what I think of them:
As for the original post in the thread, would the 10 pounds of pressure generated by mage hand (even this is an assumption based on the text of the mage hand spell, which RAW only applies to carrying up to 10 pounds) be enough to move someone in the fourth scenario laterally? Maybe. Maybe not. But what about the opposite? Let's say someone gets levitated, and I cast mage hand on my turn and park it right next to the levitated person. On their turn, can they try to shove off of it? Is the mage hand fixed in space, or can it be shoved away? Is it solid? What if the mage hand is holding a shield or a bucket or an unlit torch or a pole? Can the levitated creature push off the item and move?
I think the discussion is a lot more nuanced and interesting than, "Because that's how the spell is written."
"Not all those who wander are lost"
As the spell doesn't say otherwise and all other solutions produce artifacts that are inconsistent with the spell as written (either too high mobility, or immunity to effects that you aren't supposed to be immune to) this is the correct interpretation.
I disagree with your interpretation, but yours is a reasonable one.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I know I'm treading in dangerous waters here but my take is that Mage Hand IS a solid mass otherwise it is just a visual representation of the spell Telekinisis. I'd allow Mage Hand to carry a shield but to what effect the shield could be used may be limited though I can see abuse of a player TRYING to justify using it to get 1/2 cover by the Hand with shield hovering in front of their character. In other cases I can think of as mass I could see using Mage Hand to knock or open a door both, to me, need some form of mass to establish contact with the wood or door handle.
That seems to be literally what's happening. Telekinesis is "invisible mage hand".
I was referring to the Telekinesis spell (I did not know that feat existed) which does not mention the mage hand representation like this feat does.
I honestly didn't think that this thread would create this much debate.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Internet's gonna internet
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I don’t this it’s that bad here. Pretty open discussion and no one seems to trying to WIN their point.
Plus, this is tame compared to the Misty Step thread.
The key differences between Telekinesis and Mage Hand involve the ability to attack and lift 500 lb,