(side note: has anyone used a harpoon in a game, and if so what stats did you give it?)
I've been unsatisfied with just slapping a ranged "grappled" condition onto Spears or Javelins on a hit, since it causes improper interactions like causing the harpooned creature to just go to speed 0 in all directions, and instead gone down a rabbit hole of houseruling entirely new weapon properties and a complicated condition called "tethered" that lets the two creatures interact with each other through the connecting rope. But I've never managed to get it slimmed down and intuitive enough to recommend it to others, you've really got to draw a line with stuff like that and say "I'm not trying to simulate a real harpoon, so what's the bare minimum I can include".
Sorry OT:
Tethered is good for things like harpoons, probably lassos as well.
The attacker and target cannot increase distance between each other but can choose to get closer. Contested STR rolls to see if you can move the other person. The attacker/initiator can choose to let go at anytime. The target needs to spend an action to attempt to free itself.
So yeah, harpoon your levitating friend and drag him wherever.
That assumes the harpoon has an attached rope. It doesn’t have to.
A "harpoon" without an attached rope is just a spear.
Since mage hand only says carrying and says nothing about pushing, I would rule that it can push a levitated creature at least 5 feet. I’d probably have the caster of mage hand roll a check to see if they can push the creature another 5 feet with the same command.
Since mage hand only says carrying and says nothing about pushing, I would rule that it can push a levitated creature at least 5 feet. I’d probably have the caster of mage hand roll a check to see if they can push the creature another 5 feet with the same command.
Unless your friend is tiny tiny Mage Hand only works up to 10 lbs.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Since mage hand only says carrying and says nothing about pushing, I would rule that it can push a levitated creature at least 5 feet. I’d probably have the caster of mage hand roll a check to see if they can push the creature another 5 feet with the same command.
Unless your friend is tiny tiny Mage Hand only works up to 10 lbs.
pushing is not carrying. The 10 pound limit on mage hand is for carrying. Since the creature is already levitating, they don't need to be carried.
Fact is, the rules don't provide for this interaction between spells. I have seen reasonable (and unreasonable) arguments in this thread for why it should work, as well as for why it should not.
Since mage hand only says carrying and says nothing about pushing, I would rule that it can push a levitated creature at least 5 feet. I’d probably have the caster of mage hand roll a check to see if they can push the creature another 5 feet with the same command.
Unless your friend is tiny tiny Mage Hand only works up to 10 lbs.
pushing is not carrying. The 10 pound limit on mage hand is for carrying. Since the creature is already levitating, they don't need to be carried.
The push limit is double the carry weight. So it can push 20 lb.
Since mage hand only says carrying and says nothing about pushing, I would rule that it can push a levitated creature at least 5 feet. I’d probably have the caster of mage hand roll a check to see if they can push the creature another 5 feet with the same command.
Unless your friend is tiny tiny Mage Hand only works up to 10 lbs.
pushing is not carrying. The 10 pound limit on mage hand is for carrying. Since the creature is already levitating, they don't need to be carried.
The push limit is double the carry weight. So it can push 20 lb.
Weight is based on resistance. A levitating creature in open air only has air resistance to overcome. It "weighs" almost nothing, even if it's mass is unchanged. I don't read levitate as being an invisible hook or elevator, where resistance would still exist as if they were still standing on the ground. Unless they were against a surface or object that could grant additional resistance, I rule the hand can move the creature.
Since mage hand only says carrying and says nothing about pushing, I would rule that it can push a levitated creature at least 5 feet. I’d probably have the caster of mage hand roll a check to see if they can push the creature another 5 feet with the same command.
Unless your friend is tiny tiny Mage Hand only works up to 10 lbs.
pushing is not carrying. The 10 pound limit on mage hand is for carrying. Since the creature is already levitating, they don't need to be carried.
The push limit is double the carry weight. So it can push 20 lb.
Weight is based on resistance. A levitating creature in open air only has air resistance to overcome. It "weighs" almost nothing, even if it's mass is unchanged. I don't read levitate as being an invisible hook or elevator, where resistance would still exist as if they were still standing on the ground. Unless they were against a surface or object that could grant additional resistance, I rule the hand can move the creature.
You are thinking too realistically and not taking like game mechanics. Technically, you should be able to push off a wall and your inertia carry you pretty far at the same speed (near or above walking speed), but the spell specifically says you use your climbing speed and can't move through the air at all. If the spell cancels the Inertia of the target through the air, there must be some resistance. So even realistically, mage hand can't push them.
But game mechanics wise, you still have weight and that is higher than mage hand can push.
Weight is based on resistance. A levitating creature in open air only has air resistance to overcome.
No evidence for that; D&D physics is not real physics, and levitating does not even prevent you from resisting forces (you can still save against gust of wind, resist grapples, etc).
The push limit is double the carry weight. So it can push 20 lb.
The push limit is double the carry weight for creatures. There's a different push limit for a creature dragging a vehicle, and the mage hand is neither: it's an object. This is like trying to work out the push limit of an eldritch cannon, and we don't have rules for that.
Weight is based on resistance. A levitating creature in open air only has air resistance to overcome.
No evidence for that; D&D physics is not real physics, and levitating does not even prevent you from resisting forces (you can still save against gust of wind, resist grapples, etc).
No evidence against it either…we’re fully in the realm of DM fiat, and as a DM, I’d allow it
The push limit is double the carry weight. So it can push 20 lb.
The push limit is double the carry weight for creatures. There's a different push limit for a creature dragging a vehicle, and the mage hand is neither: it's an object. This is like trying to work out the push limit of an eldritch cannon, and we don't have rules for that.
Also true. In this case the hand can't push at all since that is not the spell's effect.
Note the push/pull rules for vehicles only serve as a multiplier to normal push/pull rules, not something completely separate.
If we want to get silly with it, the Mage Hand is perfectly capable of holding a 15ft pole or the end of a 30ft rope that a target could then "climb" along.
Within the 30ft range of Mage Hand, it's not worth getting too in the weeds about. A DM can provide a reasonable anchor point to make it a non-issue. Beyond 30ft, there needs to be some real scrutiny. A ridiculously slow "fly speed" is good enough to let the DM insert some drama, if the players would otherwise bypass something that was planned.
As a DM, I'd allow it, because if the players are clever enough to consider this combination, they deserve something for it. Also, from a strictly physics standpoint, it should work, and yes, I do KNOW that D&D physics are not real world physics. SO far as the hand not being stated it can push, a clever player will simply have it pick up something and move it "through" the levitating player. Having used little pressure to move immensely heavy objects that are suspended, I know that removing the friction of gravity makes moving heavy stuff MUCH easier, so the weight shouldn't be too big a problem. I would limit the movement to 1/2 the normal distance it can move, due to the added resistance slowing the hand.
Someone else pointed out, there are a lot of solid arguments for both sides, so what works best for your table is the right call.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Since mage hand only says carrying and says nothing about pushing, I would rule that it can push a levitated creature at least 5 feet. I’d probably have the caster of mage hand roll a check to see if they can push the creature another 5 feet with the same command.
Unless your friend is tiny tiny Mage Hand only works up to 10 lbs.
pushing is not carrying. The 10 pound limit on mage hand is for carrying. Since the creature is already levitating, they don't need to be carried.
The push limit is double the carry weight. So it can push 20 lb.
Weight is based on resistance. A levitating creature in open air only has air resistance to overcome. It "weighs" almost nothing, even if it's mass is unchanged. I don't read levitate as being an invisible hook or elevator, where resistance would still exist as if they were still standing on the ground. Unless they were against a surface or object that could grant additional resistance, I rule the hand can move the creature.
You are thinking too realistically and not taking like game mechanics. Technically, you should be able to push off a wall and your inertia carry you pretty far at the same speed (near or above walking speed), but the spell specifically says you use your climbing speed and can't move through the air at all. If the spell cancels the Inertia of the target through the air, there must be some resistance. So even realistically, mage hand can't push them.
But game mechanics wise, you still have weight and that is higher than mage hand can push.
Even with your explanation, your citation from the spell about movement is not exactly correct. What it says is they can only move by climbing along a wall. They aren’t held in place by an invisible force, only lifted and suspended in air. This means they can be pushed in any direction, even down, by even the smallest amount of pressure. Now they might not move as much as I said I would rule they would, but that’s a matter of opinion unless you want to start debating the amount of pressure a theoretical disembodied magic hand applies.
I'm not going to argue, I'm just sticking with the descriptions. Levitate doesn't say targets are easier to push (in fact all evidence is to the contrary), mage hand doesn't say it can push. Spells do what they say.
Even with your explanation, your citation from the spell about movement is not exactly correct. What it says is they can only move by climbing along a wall. They aren’t held in place by an invisible force, only lifted and suspended in air. This means they can be pushed in any direction, even down, by even the smallest amount of pressure.
Being able to move at a crawling pace is not 'the smallest amount of pressure'.
I'm not going to argue, I'm just sticking with the descriptions. Levitate doesn't say targets are easier to push (in fact all evidence is to the contrary), mage hand doesn't say it can push. Spells do what they say.
Agreed, the spell says the target can move by pushing or pulling, not something can push or pull them.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I'm not going to argue, I'm just sticking with the descriptions. Levitate doesn't say targets are easier to push (in fact all evidence is to the contrary), mage hand doesn't say it can push. Spells do what they say.
Wait. Are you now saying that Mage Hand can't push or pull open an unlocked door or that it can't push or pull a lever? Pushing and pulling are basic interactions.
A "harpoon" without an attached rope is just a spear.
Since mage hand only says carrying and says nothing about pushing, I would rule that it can push a levitated creature at least 5 feet. I’d probably have the caster of mage hand roll a check to see if they can push the creature another 5 feet with the same command.
Come participate in the Competition of the Finest Brews, Edition XXVIII?
My homebrew stuff:
Spells, Monsters, Magic Items, Feats, Subclasses.
I am an Archfey, but nobody seems to notice.
Extended Signature
Unless your friend is tiny tiny Mage Hand only works up to 10 lbs.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
pushing is not carrying. The 10 pound limit on mage hand is for carrying. Since the creature is already levitating, they don't need to be carried.
Fact is, the rules don't provide for this interaction between spells. I have seen reasonable (and unreasonable) arguments in this thread for why it should work, as well as for why it should not.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Yeah, shouldn't have circled around. Repeating the same thing isn't helping.
Even if I'm right. hahaha!
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
The push limit is double the carry weight. So it can push 20 lb.
Weight is based on resistance. A levitating creature in open air only has air resistance to overcome. It "weighs" almost nothing, even if it's mass is unchanged. I don't read levitate as being an invisible hook or elevator, where resistance would still exist as if they were still standing on the ground. Unless they were against a surface or object that could grant additional resistance, I rule the hand can move the creature.
You are thinking too realistically and not taking like game mechanics. Technically, you should be able to push off a wall and your inertia carry you pretty far at the same speed (near or above walking speed), but the spell specifically says you use your climbing speed and can't move through the air at all. If the spell cancels the Inertia of the target through the air, there must be some resistance. So even realistically, mage hand can't push them.
But game mechanics wise, you still have weight and that is higher than mage hand can push.
No evidence for that; D&D physics is not real physics, and levitating does not even prevent you from resisting forces (you can still save against gust of wind, resist grapples, etc).
The push limit is double the carry weight for creatures. There's a different push limit for a creature dragging a vehicle, and the mage hand is neither: it's an object. This is like trying to work out the push limit of an eldritch cannon, and we don't have rules for that.
No evidence against it either…we’re fully in the realm of DM fiat, and as a DM, I’d allow it
Also true. In this case the hand can't push at all since that is not the spell's effect.
Note the push/pull rules for vehicles only serve as a multiplier to normal push/pull rules, not something completely separate.
If we want to get silly with it, the Mage Hand is perfectly capable of holding a 15ft pole or the end of a 30ft rope that a target could then "climb" along.
Within the 30ft range of Mage Hand, it's not worth getting too in the weeds about. A DM can provide a reasonable anchor point to make it a non-issue. Beyond 30ft, there needs to be some real scrutiny. A ridiculously slow "fly speed" is good enough to let the DM insert some drama, if the players would otherwise bypass something that was planned.
As a DM, I'd allow it, because if the players are clever enough to consider this combination, they deserve something for it. Also, from a strictly physics standpoint, it should work, and yes, I do KNOW that D&D physics are not real world physics. SO far as the hand not being stated it can push, a clever player will simply have it pick up something and move it "through" the levitating player. Having used little pressure to move immensely heavy objects that are suspended, I know that removing the friction of gravity makes moving heavy stuff MUCH easier, so the weight shouldn't be too big a problem. I would limit the movement to 1/2 the normal distance it can move, due to the added resistance slowing the hand.
Someone else pointed out, there are a lot of solid arguments for both sides, so what works best for your table is the right call.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Even with your explanation, your citation from the spell about movement is not exactly correct. What it says is they can only move by climbing along a wall. They aren’t held in place by an invisible force, only lifted and suspended in air. This means they can be pushed in any direction, even down, by even the smallest amount of pressure. Now they might not move as much as I said I would rule they would, but that’s a matter of opinion unless you want to start debating the amount of pressure a theoretical disembodied magic hand applies.
Come participate in the Competition of the Finest Brews, Edition XXVIII?
My homebrew stuff:
Spells, Monsters, Magic Items, Feats, Subclasses.
I am an Archfey, but nobody seems to notice.
Extended Signature
I'm not going to argue, I'm just sticking with the descriptions. Levitate doesn't say targets are easier to push (in fact all evidence is to the contrary), mage hand doesn't say it can push. Spells do what they say.
Being able to move at a crawling pace is not 'the smallest amount of pressure'.
Agreed, the spell says the target can move by pushing or pulling, not something can push or pull them.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Wait. Are you now saying that Mage Hand can't push or pull open an unlocked door or that it can't push or pull a lever? Pushing and pulling are basic interactions.
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