Since the methods of obtaining proficiency in Thieves' Tools when building a character is so limited - Rogue, Artificer, and background, afaik - I'm inclined to believe that proficiency is not required to use them but only to gain the benefit of one's proficiency bonus. But if that's the case, that passage in the book is one of the worst examples I've seen.
Thoughts?
Edit: Sorry if I don't respond for a while. I usually think of these questions when I'm really tired and end up going to bed afterwards. Really interested in seeing what the consensus is, though.
Thieves' Tools say proficiency lets you add your proficiency bonus to checks you make to pick locks, not that they enable picking locks, so anyone should be able to pick locks, just without their proficiency bonus.
I think the best way to reconcile these two descriptions is for the DM to determine whether a given lock or trap would require proficiency with thieves tools or whether an average Joe with a set of lock picks can take a crack at it. That also sits well with JC's comments on the matter.
In general, you can use Thieves' Tools without proficiency, however, you cannot pick a lock without it.
Lock Type: Adventuring Gear Cost: 10 gp Weight: 1 lb A key is provided with the lock. Without the key, a creature proficient with thieves' tools can pick this lock with a successful DC 15 Dexterity check. Your DM may decide that better locks are available for higher prices.
In general, you can use Thieves' Tools without proficiency, however, you cannot pick a lock without it.
Lock Type: Adventuring Gear Cost: 10 gp Weight: 1 lb A key is provided with the lock. Without the key, a creature proficient with thieves' tools can pick this lock with a successful DC 15 Dexterity check. Your DM may decide that better locks are available for higher prices.
Good call, I didn't realize the lock item specifically stopped itself from being picked nonproficiently.
Also, while performing a task that requires tools might not require proficiency, it always requires the tools.
For example, someone with no proficiency with carpenters tools can probably use a hammer, chisel, saw, etc to make a chair. It might be rough, it might rock, but it will do the job of keeping your butt off the ground. On the other hand, it doesn't matter how much of an expert carpenter you are, if all you have is a pile of wood and no tools, you aren't going to end up with a chair.
Improvised Tools impose disadvantage to the check.
Thieves' Tools can be used for more than picking locks. For example, they might include "ear cones" for listening through doors/windows, or fingerblades for ease in picking pockets, "shuko" claws for climbing, plus pliers and cutters for working on traps.
If you have the tools, you can try to use them for these other "thief-ly" activities. But if you want to pick a lock, you need at least some rudimentary training. (After that, though... pretty much anyone can pick a nonmagical lock, eventually. anywhere from 5 seconds to 2 minutes, from a quick Google search.)
Think of it like this someone who bought lockpicks off amazon and has been playing and getting lucking opening locks VS a locksmith how was trained how to do it and has been doing it for a few years. The Amazon lock picker cant add there prof bonus but still has a chance to open things (and cant even open things that are harder). The Locksmith on the other hand knows alot more and knows what they are looking for hence adding there prof bonus. Both possibly can open that door lock..... but your most likely to have that locksmith do it before the other guy.
For things like carpentry, though, improvised tools are a thing, at least to some limited degree. One can hammer with a rock.
Good point. I should have included that in my answer.
A piece of stiff wire and the point of a poniard could be improvised lockpicks. A hand axe and a rock could be an improvised chisel and plane. A flat rock could be an improvised frying pan.
just to add a few more pieces...IRL aside, there's actually 3 separate places where RAW says you need proficiency in thieves' tools to pick a lock. RAI from the referenced Sage Advice tweets are in direct conflict with RAW - so, as with everything, its just up to the DM (but I would recommend declaring the position at the beginning of a campaign).
Working Together – Chapter 7 of the Player’s Handbook. Where it discusses working together to provide advantage on an ability check: “For example, trying to open a lock requires proficiency with thieves' tools…” IMO, this is very clear.
Locked Doors – Chapter 5 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide. Where it discusses picking locked doors: “...doing so requires thieves’ tools and proficiency in their use”. This is also very clear, but it just addresses locked doors, not the adventuring gear item ‘lock’...but I believe its a very valid argument that they’re treated the same.
Lock – Chapter 5 of the Player’s Handbook. Where it lists the description of a lock “...a creature proficient with thieves’ tools can pick this lock…” Nowhere does it say that a creature without proficiency can pick the lock. You could argue that assumption is adding to the rules
I'd also like to point out that gaining proficiency with thieves' tool really isn't limited...its wide open and anyone can gain proficiency with them:
Rogues and artificers (as the OP mentioned)
Backgrounds, also as the OP mentioned, but its ANY background (not just Criminal, Grinner, Investigator, Urchan, or Urban Bounty Hunter) when you use the Customizing a Background feature from the PHB
You can use the Customizing Your Origin feature from TCE and replace an armor, weapon or tool proficiency (whether its from a race/class/background feature) with a proficiency in thieves' tools.
The 'Skilled' feat (although that's a bit of a waste of a feat imo)
The 'Prodigy' feat (which allows humans, half-elfs, and half-orcs to get expertise in thieves' tools)
Training as a downtime activity from XGE - any character can use downtime to train in a tool.
Races - these races can either train in thieves' tools and/or get a 1d4 bonus to thieves' tools: Githyanki, Mark of Warding Dwarves, Vedalken, Warforged
just to add a few more pieces...IRL aside, there's actually 3 separate places where RAW says you need proficiency in thieves' tools to pick a lock. RAI from the referenced Sage Advice tweets are in direct conflict with RAW - so, as with everything, its just up to the DM (but I would recommend declaring the position at the beginning of a campaign).
Working Together – Chapter 7 of the Player’s Handbook. Where it discusses working together to provide advantage on an ability check: “For example, trying to open a lock requires proficiency with thieves' tools…” IMO, this is very clear.
Locked Doors – Chapter 5 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide. Where it discusses picking locked doors: “...doing so requires thieves’ tools and proficiency in their use”. This is also very clear, but it just addresses locked doors, not the adventuring gear item ‘lock’...but I believe its a very valid argument that they’re treated the same.
Lock – Chapter 5 of the Player’s Handbook. Where it lists the description of a lock “...a creature proficient with thieves’ tools can pick this lock…” Nowhere does it say that a creature without proficiency can pick the lock. You could argue that assumption is adding to the rules
I was reading this very helpful post, and I would like to add to the list:
Manacles (PHB p.152) "... without the key, a creature proficient with thieves' tools can pick the manacles' lock with a successful DC 15 Dexterity check ..."
RAW seems to strongly support requiring proficiency in the use of the tools to open locks but RAI seems to run contrary to that based on JC’s and MM’s comments. For this reason, my campaigns use both and proficiency as a requirement will depend on the complexity of the lock. I have, without proficiency in lock picking tools, been guided through how to open simple locks in real life. Some are easy enough for the layman, with the right tools, to bumble their way through picking them. In the game world, I use this so that simple locks in say, a small village with a simple tumbler requires no proficiency. Locks that have say, serrations or some other delaying mechanism would require proficiency to identify and therefore overcome.
I think proficiency with thieves' tools is required to pick a lock with those tools, but not required to do other things with those tools, such as disarm traps, etc.
for what it's worth, this sums up most of what was discussed, its free and you can see the entire pub on preview if you want to quickly browse to decide if even the free version is worth downloading. It doesn't have tarodnet's comment, but most of the rest...as well as a few legacy items brought to 5e and a few homebrew items. (disclaimer, I'm wildly biased towards this pub)
So, the book says Thieves' Tools requires proficiency to open a lock.
But both Jeremy Crawford and Mike Mearls have said that no, in fact, one does not require proficiency to use them.
JC: https://www.sageadvice.eu/is-tool-proficiency-required-to-use-thieves-tools-or-can-anyone-make-the-tool-check-without-bonus/
MM: https://www.sageadvice.eu/thieves-tools/
Since the methods of obtaining proficiency in Thieves' Tools when building a character is so limited - Rogue, Artificer, and background, afaik - I'm inclined to believe that proficiency is not required to use them but only to gain the benefit of one's proficiency bonus. But if that's the case, that passage in the book is one of the worst examples I've seen.
Thoughts?
Edit: Sorry if I don't respond for a while. I usually think of these questions when I'm really tired and end up going to bed afterwards. Really interested in seeing what the consensus is, though.
Thieves' Tools say proficiency lets you add your proficiency bonus to checks you make to pick locks, not that they enable picking locks, so anyone should be able to pick locks, just without their proficiency bonus.
I think the best way to reconcile these two descriptions is for the DM to determine whether a given lock or trap would require proficiency with thieves tools or whether an average Joe with a set of lock picks can take a crack at it. That also sits well with JC's comments on the matter.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
In general, you can use Thieves' Tools without proficiency, however, you cannot pick a lock without it.
More Interesting Lock Picking Rules
Good call, I didn't realize the lock item specifically stopped itself from being picked nonproficiently.
Official adventures also require proficiency for every lock and trap that thief's tools can open/disarm.
It is kind of an unwritten rule. The tool doesn't necessarily need proficiency, but everything it is used for does.
You can also gain proficiency with the training downtime or the skilled feat (or prodigy if you are human/half-human).
Also, while performing a task that requires tools might not require proficiency, it always requires the tools.
For example, someone with no proficiency with carpenters tools can probably use a hammer, chisel, saw, etc to make a chair. It might be rough, it might rock, but it will do the job of keeping your butt off the ground. On the other hand, it doesn't matter how much of an expert carpenter you are, if all you have is a pile of wood and no tools, you aren't going to end up with a chair.
Ohh, this makes a lot more sense now after having read these responses. Thank you very much for the insight, appreciate it!
Improvised Tools impose disadvantage to the check.
Thieves' Tools can be used for more than picking locks. For example, they might include "ear cones" for listening through doors/windows, or fingerblades for ease in picking pockets, "shuko" claws for climbing, plus pliers and cutters for working on traps.
If you have the tools, you can try to use them for these other "thief-ly" activities. But if you want to pick a lock, you need at least some rudimentary training. (After that, though... pretty much anyone can pick a nonmagical lock, eventually. anywhere from 5 seconds to 2 minutes, from a quick Google search.)
Think of it like this someone who bought lockpicks off amazon and has been playing and getting lucking opening locks VS a locksmith how was trained how to do it and has been doing it for a few years. The Amazon lock picker cant add there prof bonus but still has a chance to open things (and cant even open things that are harder). The Locksmith on the other hand knows alot more and knows what they are looking for hence adding there prof bonus. Both possibly can open that door lock..... but your most likely to have that locksmith do it before the other guy.
Good point. I should have included that in my answer.
A piece of stiff wire and the point of a poniard could be improvised lockpicks. A hand axe and a rock could be an improvised chisel and plane. A flat rock could be an improvised frying pan.
just to add a few more pieces...IRL aside, there's actually 3 separate places where RAW says you need proficiency in thieves' tools to pick a lock. RAI from the referenced Sage Advice tweets are in direct conflict with RAW - so, as with everything, its just up to the DM (but I would recommend declaring the position at the beginning of a campaign).
Working Together – Chapter 7 of the Player’s Handbook. Where it discusses working together to provide advantage on an ability check: “For example, trying to open a lock requires proficiency with thieves' tools…”
IMO, this is very clear.
Locked Doors – Chapter 5 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide. Where it discusses picking locked doors: “...doing so requires thieves’ tools and proficiency in their use”.
This is also very clear, but it just addresses locked doors, not the adventuring gear item ‘lock’...but I believe its a very valid argument that they’re treated the same.
Lock – Chapter 5 of the Player’s Handbook. Where it lists the description of a lock “...a creature proficient with thieves’ tools can pick this lock…”
Nowhere does it say that a creature without proficiency can pick the lock. You could argue that assumption is adding to the rules
I'd also like to point out that gaining proficiency with thieves' tool really isn't limited...its wide open and anyone can gain proficiency with them:
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I was reading this very helpful post, and I would like to add to the list:
In my campaigns most tasks involving ability checks with thieves tools are made by a proficient character.
RAW seems to strongly support requiring proficiency in the use of the tools to open locks but RAI seems to run contrary to that based on JC’s and MM’s comments. For this reason, my campaigns use both and proficiency as a requirement will depend on the complexity of the lock. I have, without proficiency in lock picking tools, been guided through how to open simple locks in real life. Some are easy enough for the layman, with the right tools, to bumble their way through picking them. In the game world, I use this so that simple locks in say, a small village with a simple tumbler requires no proficiency. Locks that have say, serrations or some other delaying mechanism would require proficiency to identify and therefore overcome.
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I think proficiency with thieves' tools is required to pick a lock with those tools, but not required to do other things with those tools, such as disarm traps, etc.
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I agree. For me, this is the most clever solution.
for what it's worth, this sums up most of what was discussed, its free and you can see the entire pub on preview if you want to quickly browse to decide if even the free version is worth downloading. It doesn't have tarodnet's comment, but most of the rest...as well as a few legacy items brought to 5e and a few homebrew items. (disclaimer, I'm wildly biased towards this pub)
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/382941/On-Locks-and-Lockpicking
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I treat it like skill proficiency requirement, some task may require one and some don't.