Obviously, it can't be mounted because they both are Medium, the player doesn't have an Exotic saddle (as required for flying/swimming creatures) and Beholder's physique doesn't allow riding.
But he insists that climbing and staying on top is possible. I'm handling this. Cooking up some Athletics/Acrobatics checks. For example:
Once per round, whenever Abberant Spirit takes damage, makes a Dexterity Saving Throw or makes Forced movement, the creature on top must make s Strength saving throw or fall down. Everyone has Advantage on attacks against the Beholder, and Abberant Spirit has a Disadvantage for Dex/Str checks. His speed is halved.
But as this topic boggles my mind for the entire weekend, I can't help but imagine myself a beholder, and how my player is abusing the kindness I provide. And "Eureka!", I realized that as he climbed onto my head, and the centre of mass shifted up, there will be a constant force as gravity will translate into centrical motion unless he is positioned perfectly above. And Beholder does canonically has a device that affects his body, and the player is not part of it.
So, will Abberant Spirit (Beholder) flip upside down like a float if used as an elevator?
A magical organ called the "levator Magnus", located in the centre of the body surrounded by the creature's brain produces an influence that causes the beholder to float in the air. This allows it to move about slowly, up and down, left or right, forward or back at a slow speed, like that of a pacing man. No magical spell or device can negate this levitation, though beholders cannot resist the push of great winds.
Think of it less like riding as in a proper mount, and more like grappling and dragging. A medium-sized Beholderkin Spirit has a STR of 16, allowing them to push/drag/lift up to 480 pounds. So as long as the player and everything they're carrying is less than that, the Beholderkin should be able to carry them over short distances, but the Beholderkin is basically dragging them at that point and would be moving at half their speed, and the character would need to weigh under 240 lbs to be within the Beholderkin's carry capacity, but it definitely should be awkward, uncomfortable movement. I think it definitely makes sense to give the disadvantages you described, and visually it's pretty funny and appropriate to have the Beholderkin float awkwardly or turn upside-down in the process... I think it's a viable option to use this 4th level spell as a means of ferrying characters short distances, but the Beholderkin can't really function as a reliable mount in dangerous situations.
Don’t try and apply physics to D&D. The beholder floats because magic. If you allow it to carry things, it can do it because magic. The bigger question I have is how are they climbing on? Does the character propose to use the eyestalks as hand holds?
Also, whenever the beholder moves, I’d have them make a dex save or athletics check to avoid falling off. Like surfing, basically.
The magic of the beholderkin is only strong enough to keep its own weight in the air - the magic won't handle the extra weight of a medium sized person hanging from it.
Imagine the scene - you are in a swimming pool with a space hopper - you try to climb on top of the space hopper, what happens?
Don’t try and apply physics to D&D. The beholder floats because magic. If you allow it to carry things, it can do it because magic. The bigger question I have is how are they climbing on? Does the character propose to use the eyestalks as hand holds?
Also, whenever the beholder moves, I’d have them make a dex save or athletics check to avoid falling off. Like surfing, basically.
I see your point. I agree: I am sure that the 4th Level summoning spell shouldn't also give free Flight(3rd level spell) to a caster. Physics or not.
But when DMing, I like having a foundation for my arbitration. And physics is sometimes a way to get the party on board.
The Player did use eyestalks to climb and to hold on to. I also did ask for a Slight of Hand check because Beholder's eyestalks are very gentle (I will explain it down below).
Also yes, after the game I said that every movement will require a Strength Save (player is prone on top of the Beholder).
IMHO: D&D is a good friend of physics. I tend to trust the rules fully in any situation, and so far I haven't been disappointed. Can't remember a time when I had to compromise between the rule and common sense.
The magic of the beholderkin is only strong enough to keep its own weight in the air - the magic won't handle the extra weight of a medium sized person hanging from it.
Imagine the scene - you are in a swimming pool with a space hopper - you try to climb on top of the space hopper, what happens?
Space Hopper flips upside down and I'm underwater!))) I wish the first point were also true, but he can carry other creatures. My players will point me to the fact that a Beholder can Grapple someone and fly around with that creature, be it at half speed. There are no special rules for Hovering, so I have to assume that standard Encumbrance and standard Grapple Rules are in play. So even the Medium Beholder should be able to carry someone.
You can grapple Beholder, and he will not be able to fly away. But if he Grapples you, he can carry you up. So I ruled that when you prevent a flying creature from flying with grapple, you grab it by the wing. In the case of Beholder, you grab him by the eye stock, and it is painful for him to fly that way.
But when DMing, I like having a foundation for my arbitration. And physics is sometimes a way to get the party on board.
I mean you already have plenty of foundation that you outlined in the first post. You can't ride a creature the same size as you, you need an exotic saddle for weirdly-shaped mounts, and some creatures just aren't the right shape even with an exotic saddle. Honestly arguing beyond those points undermines just how far he's already asking you to divert from the rules.
Sometimes people revert to physics or whatever when a subject isn't spelled out well by the rules, but this situation absolutely is. There are rules for mounting, rules for grappling, and optional rules for climbing onto other creatures. All of these give you a definitive answer here. It's a fun idea, but if you let it work it should be clear that you are adding an extremely generous houserule rather than just making a ruling on a fuzzy topic.
Besides, if you truly want to be true to physics, carrying something through the air should be way, way harder than dragging it around. Grappling + flight is a combination that is not specifically spelled out in the rules and I personally rule that you need to be two sizes bigger to do it at all.
Fist point, true. That creature is definitely not a mount. That was something we agreed on early on at my table.
The scenario is still within the "You can certainly try" area. Not a house rule in any way. I just want to be prepared to arbitrate if a similar situation ever occurs. So those are some examples of Checks/Saving Throws it will require.
Don't get me wrong that warlock guy is absolutely deserving of some disciplinary action, and he gives me headaches every now and then, but this is more about my personal integrity.
To paint the picture: I rarely ever introduce limitations not included in Player's Handbook, as it is hard not to nerf a specific player. In 1.5 years of playing, we only have 3 house rules, so it is like the American Senate in that regard)
If you want to know:
Flanking gives +2/+5
Players roll initiative every turn, while large crowds use passive initiative. If you feel like discussing this rule, feel free to create a new topic, I'll join, but let's keep this one clean ;)
For large crowds of relatively low CR we made an "Injured" rule. If you didn't kill it in one hit, it is marked as injured, and the next damage will kill it.
The summary.
I think I stated the relevant official rules in the first post. So can only provide the ruling I ended up with from this discussion. If you climb the Beholder, there will be Disadvantages, Checks & Saving Throws, his speed will be doubled, but he will be able to fly with you. Just as he would be able to if he were to Grapple a creature, according to RAW. But the most important thing - if you fail to balance, he will flip like a Space Hopper in a pool of water and drop you down))))
My Player wants to ride an Abberant Spirit.
Obviously, it can't be mounted because they both are Medium, the player doesn't have an Exotic saddle (as required for flying/swimming creatures) and Beholder's physique doesn't allow riding.
But he insists that climbing and staying on top is possible. I'm handling this. Cooking up some Athletics/Acrobatics checks. For example:
But as this topic boggles my mind for the entire weekend, I can't help but imagine myself a beholder, and how my player is abusing the kindness I provide. And "Eureka!", I realized that as he climbed onto my head, and the centre of mass shifted up, there will be a constant force as gravity will translate into centrical motion unless he is positioned perfectly above. And Beholder does canonically has a device that affects his body, and the player is not part of it.
So, will Abberant Spirit (Beholder) flip upside down like a float if used as an elevator?
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Think of it less like riding as in a proper mount, and more like grappling and dragging. A medium-sized Beholderkin Spirit has a STR of 16, allowing them to push/drag/lift up to 480 pounds. So as long as the player and everything they're carrying is less than that, the Beholderkin should be able to carry them over short distances, but the Beholderkin is basically dragging them at that point and would be moving at half their speed, and the character would need to weigh under 240 lbs to be within the Beholderkin's carry capacity, but it definitely should be awkward, uncomfortable movement. I think it definitely makes sense to give the disadvantages you described, and visually it's pretty funny and appropriate to have the Beholderkin float awkwardly or turn upside-down in the process... I think it's a viable option to use this 4th level spell as a means of ferrying characters short distances, but the Beholderkin can't really function as a reliable mount in dangerous situations.
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Don’t try and apply physics to D&D. The beholder floats because magic. If you allow it to carry things, it can do it because magic.
The bigger question I have is how are they climbing on? Does the character propose to use the eyestalks as hand holds?
Also, whenever the beholder moves, I’d have them make a dex save or athletics check to avoid falling off. Like surfing, basically.
The magic of the beholderkin is only strong enough to keep its own weight in the air - the magic won't handle the extra weight of a medium sized person hanging from it.
Imagine the scene - you are in a swimming pool with a space hopper - you try to climb on top of the space hopper, what happens?
What is a space hopper? see https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tobar-Retro-Space-Hopper/dp/B085L223CZ
I see your point. I agree:
I am sure that the 4th Level summoning spell shouldn't also give free Flight(3rd level spell) to a caster. Physics or not.
But when DMing, I like having a foundation for my arbitration. And physics is sometimes a way to get the party on board.
The Player did use eyestalks to climb and to hold on to. I also did ask for a Slight of Hand check because Beholder's eyestalks are very gentle (I will explain it down below).
Also yes, after the game I said that every movement will require a Strength Save (player is prone on top of the Beholder).
IMHO: D&D is a good friend of physics. I tend to trust the rules fully in any situation, and so far I haven't been disappointed. Can't remember a time when I had to compromise between the rule and common sense.
Space Hopper flips upside down and I'm underwater!)))
I wish the first point were also true, but he can carry other creatures.
My players will point me to the fact that a Beholder can Grapple someone and fly around with that creature, be it at half speed. There are no special rules for Hovering, so I have to assume that standard Encumbrance and standard Grapple Rules are in play. So even the Medium Beholder should be able to carry someone.
You can grapple Beholder, and he will not be able to fly away. But if he Grapples you, he can carry you up. So I ruled that when you prevent a flying creature from flying with grapple, you grab it by the wing. In the case of Beholder, you grab him by the eye stock, and it is painful for him to fly that way.
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I mean you already have plenty of foundation that you outlined in the first post. You can't ride a creature the same size as you, you need an exotic saddle for weirdly-shaped mounts, and some creatures just aren't the right shape even with an exotic saddle. Honestly arguing beyond those points undermines just how far he's already asking you to divert from the rules.
Sometimes people revert to physics or whatever when a subject isn't spelled out well by the rules, but this situation absolutely is. There are rules for mounting, rules for grappling, and optional rules for climbing onto other creatures. All of these give you a definitive answer here. It's a fun idea, but if you let it work it should be clear that you are adding an extremely generous houserule rather than just making a ruling on a fuzzy topic.
Besides, if you truly want to be true to physics, carrying something through the air should be way, way harder than dragging it around. Grappling + flight is a combination that is not specifically spelled out in the rules and I personally rule that you need to be two sizes bigger to do it at all.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Fist point, true. That creature is definitely not a mount. That was something we agreed on early on at my table.
The scenario is still within the "You can certainly try" area. Not a house rule in any way. I just want to be prepared to arbitrate if a similar situation ever occurs. So those are some examples of Checks/Saving Throws it will require.
Don't get me wrong that warlock guy is absolutely deserving of some disciplinary action, and he gives me headaches every now and then, but this is more about my personal integrity.
To paint the picture: I rarely ever introduce limitations not included in Player's Handbook, as it is hard not to nerf a specific player. In 1.5 years of playing, we only have 3 house rules, so it is like the American Senate in that regard)
If you want to know:
The summary.
I think I stated the relevant official rules in the first post. So can only provide the ruling I ended up with from this discussion.
If you climb the Beholder, there will be Disadvantages, Checks & Saving Throws, his speed will be doubled, but he will be able to fly with you. Just as he would be able to if he were to Grapple a creature, according to RAW. But the most important thing - if you fail to balance, he will flip like a Space Hopper in a pool of water and drop you down))))
https://www.quizcanners.com/