I had an interesting thought I was hoping someone could clarify. I've searched around the forums and I don't believe this specific question has been asked.
I'm building a Centaur that will start as a Cleric and multiclass into Ranger. I recently discovered the optional class features and thought this would be a great way to bring some life to what I've historically seen as a boring class (ranger). I opted for the Deft Explorer optional Ranger class feature, and one of its features, Roving, states the following, "Your walking speed increases by 5, and you gain a climbing speed and a swimming speed equal to your walking speed." However, the Centaur racial feature, Equine Build, states, "...any climb that requires hands and feet is especially difficult for you because of your equine legs. When you make such a climb, each foot of movement costs you 4 extra feet instead of the normal 1 extra foot."
My question is what would this combination, Roving and Equine Build, mean for the Centaur's climbing speed/mobility? Does it still suffer the Equine Build penalty? Does its climbing become a staggering 45ft? Is there no clear answer and its up to the DM?
A creature without a climbing speed can climb up to half its walking speed in a given turn. So a Centaur with 40 movement would be able to climb 20 feet, but then each foot of climbing movement costs an extra 4 feet, meaning the centaur can really only climb 4 feet. Roving increases that climbing speed to 45, but it would still cost 5 feet of movement for each foot climbed, meaning now the centaur can climb 9 feet.
It is sort of a bizarre rules interaction though, and I would definitely talk it over with your DM to make sure that, if nothing else, you're both on the same page about it.
It will gain the extra 5ft, but the cost is still 5ft per 1ft climbed. That means without Roving, it would be able to climb 40/5=8ft. Since it has Roving, it woukd be able to climb 45/5=9ft.
It's always up to the DM. However, there is a clear answer here, it can climb 9ft. The question is whether the DM is happy using such odd numbers (usually things are done in multiples of 5, in part to simplify things). He may round things up to simplify things - which mean would mean that there would be no advantage to the ability in this instance, since both values woukd round up to 10ft. But as I said, it's up to your DM.
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Each foot of movement costs 1 extra foot (2 extra feet in difficult terrain) when you’re climbing, swimming, or crawling. You ignore this extra cost if you have a climbing speed and use it to climb or a swimming speed and use it to swim. At the DM’s option, climbing a slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds requires a successful Strength (Athletics) check. Similarly, gaining any distance in rough water might require a successful Strength (Athletics) check.
Here is Equine Build:
Equine Build
You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push or drag.
In addition, any climb that requires hands and feet is especially difficult for you because of your equine legs. When you make such a climb, each foot of movement costs you 4 extra feet instead of the normal 1 extra foot.
My interpretation:
Normal rules climbing costs 1 extra foot, equine build modifies that 1 extra foot rule specifically to 4 extra feet, climb speed just says you ignore the extra cost.
This means that my Reading of Rules as Written says that the climb speed is the full unmodified speed, so in your example if you have a walk speed of 45 then you can climb 45 ft up a wall. I have underlined the specific phrases that lead me to this reading.
at my table I'm not sure how i would rule on this specific ability, I tend to defer to rule of fun and would probably go with the 45 feet. I can see the argument about no mundane way to overcome equine build, but if you gained a climb speed by magic like https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/4755-slippers-of-spider-climbing then I would definitely rule the full speed.
Specific overrules general. Climbing rules are general and Equine Build is specific, so unless Equine Build states an exception, it overrules the vlimbing rules, per RAW at least.
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Specific overrules general. Climbing rules are general and Equine Build is specific, so unless Equine Build states an exception, it overrules the vlimbing rules, per RAW at least.
While I agree with what you say here, equine build specifically mentions the 1 extra foot portion of the rule "each foot of movement costs you 4 extra feet instead of the normal 1 extra foot." So my reading essentially changes the climbing rules to this (specifically replacing the 1 extra foot with 4 extra feet)
Each foot of movement costs 4 extra foot (2 extra feet in difficult terrain) when you’re climbing, swimming, or crawling. You ignore this extra cost if you have a climbing speed and use it to climb or a swimming speed and use it to swim. At the DM’s option, climbing a slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds requires a successful Strength (Athletics) check. Similarly, gaining any distance in rough water might require a successful Strength (Athletics) check.
I understand your ruling and disagree (if equine build only stated "When you make such a climb, each foot of movement costs you 4 extra feet " i would have agreed with you). I don't think we will make any more progress without something like a sage advice. I'm aware that climbing faster in rough terrain would be ridiculous but silly things happen when you are discussing RAW with edge cases like this
Edit: sorry for the extra underline, couldnt seem to get rid of it when copy pasting
That's a pretty solid argument as far as I'm concerned. I also think there's some ambiguity in the specific vs. general approach because the conflict we're looking at is not basic climbing versus Equine Build, it's Roving versus Equine Build. Both of those are arguably specific rules.
Equine Build increases the penalty to using your normal movement speed to climb. Note the language "instead of the normal 1 extra," which indicates that aside from the one number changing from a one to a four the original rule still applies as normal. A climbing speed, which Roving explicitly grants, means that you do not suffer any reduced movement when climbing. That means that the normal penalty, regardless of how great it is for a Centaur, does not apply. So mountain goat pony-elf.
My thanks to everyone who responded here. I enjoy these sorts of deep dives into the rules. After talking about this build with my DM, who is typically in favor of player fun, we decided the Centaur would effectively become a mountain goat, scaling mountains with ease. Probably won't be too overpowered or consistently useful, but it'll be a fun gimmick when it comes up.
My thanks to everyone who responded here. I enjoy these sorts of deep dives into the rules. After talking about this build with my DM, who is typically in favor of player fun, we decided the Centaur would effectively become a mountain goat, scaling mountains with ease. Probably won't be too overpowered or consistently useful, but it'll be a fun gimmick when it comes up.
A bit off topic, but this reminds me of when my niece reflavored her centaur character as a gnome sitting on a chair on the back of a goat.
Equine Build increases the penalty to using your normal movement speed to climb. Note the language "instead of the normal 1 extra," which indicates that aside from the one number changing from a one to a four the original rule still applies as normal. A climbing speed, which Roving explicitly grants, means that you do not suffer any reduced movement when climbing. That means that the normal penalty, regardless of how great it is for a Centaur, does not apply. So mountain goat pony-elf.
There are different types of climbing, though. Climbing a mountain is different from climbing a rope. I would say that having Roving cancel all the Equine Build penalty only makes sense if you are dealing with some kind of diagonal gradient. In a vertical climb, Equine Build should still be a hindrance.
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Hello,
I had an interesting thought I was hoping someone could clarify. I've searched around the forums and I don't believe this specific question has been asked.
I'm building a Centaur that will start as a Cleric and multiclass into Ranger. I recently discovered the optional class features and thought this would be a great way to bring some life to what I've historically seen as a boring class (ranger). I opted for the Deft Explorer optional Ranger class feature, and one of its features, Roving, states the following, "Your walking speed increases by 5, and you gain a climbing speed and a swimming speed equal to your walking speed." However, the Centaur racial feature, Equine Build, states, "...any climb that requires hands and feet is especially difficult for you because of your equine legs. When you make such a climb, each foot of movement costs you 4 extra feet instead of the normal 1 extra foot."
My question is what would this combination, Roving and Equine Build, mean for the Centaur's climbing speed/mobility? Does it still suffer the Equine Build penalty? Does its climbing become a staggering 45ft? Is there no clear answer and its up to the DM?
Thanks for the advice!
A creature without a climbing speed can climb up to half its walking speed in a given turn. So a Centaur with 40 movement would be able to climb 20 feet, but then each foot of climbing movement costs an extra 4 feet, meaning the centaur can really only climb 4 feet. Roving increases that climbing speed to 45, but it would still cost 5 feet of movement for each foot climbed, meaning now the centaur can climb 9 feet.
It is sort of a bizarre rules interaction though, and I would definitely talk it over with your DM to make sure that, if nothing else, you're both on the same page about it.
Yes, it will still suffer the penalty.
It will gain the extra 5ft, but the cost is still 5ft per 1ft climbed. That means without Roving, it would be able to climb 40/5=8ft. Since it has Roving, it woukd be able to climb 45/5=9ft.
It's always up to the DM. However, there is a clear answer here, it can climb 9ft. The question is whether the DM is happy using such odd numbers (usually things are done in multiples of 5, in part to simplify things). He may round things up to simplify things - which mean would mean that there would be no advantage to the ability in this instance, since both values woukd round up to 10ft. But as I said, it's up to your DM.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Here is the climbing Rules:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/adventuring#ClimbingSwimmingandCrawling
Climbing, Swimming, and Crawling
Each foot of movement costs 1 extra foot (2 extra feet in difficult terrain) when you’re climbing, swimming, or crawling. You ignore this extra cost if you have a climbing speed and use it to climb or a swimming speed and use it to swim. At the DM’s option, climbing a slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds requires a successful Strength (Athletics) check. Similarly, gaining any distance in rough water might require a successful Strength (Athletics) check.
Here is Equine Build:
Equine Build
You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push or drag.
In addition, any climb that requires hands and feet is especially difficult for you because of your equine legs. When you make such a climb, each foot of movement costs you 4 extra feet instead of the normal 1 extra foot.
My interpretation:
Normal rules climbing costs 1 extra foot, equine build modifies that 1 extra foot rule specifically to 4 extra feet, climb speed just says you ignore the extra cost.
This means that my Reading of Rules as Written says that the climb speed is the full unmodified speed, so in your example if you have a walk speed of 45 then you can climb 45 ft up a wall. I have underlined the specific phrases that lead me to this reading.
at my table I'm not sure how i would rule on this specific ability, I tend to defer to rule of fun and would probably go with the 45 feet. I can see the argument about no mundane way to overcome equine build, but if you gained a climb speed by magic like https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/4755-slippers-of-spider-climbing then I would definitely rule the full speed.
Specific overrules general. Climbing rules are general and Equine Build is specific, so unless Equine Build states an exception, it overrules the vlimbing rules, per RAW at least.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
While I agree with what you say here, equine build specifically mentions the 1 extra foot portion of the rule "each foot of movement costs you 4 extra feet instead of the normal 1 extra foot." So my reading essentially changes the climbing rules to this (specifically replacing the 1 extra foot with 4 extra feet)
Each foot of movement costs 4 extra foot (2 extra feet in difficult terrain) when you’re climbing, swimming, or crawling. You ignore this extra cost if you have a climbing speed and use it to climb or a swimming speed and use it to swim. At the DM’s option, climbing a slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds requires a successful Strength (Athletics) check. Similarly, gaining any distance in rough water might require a successful Strength (Athletics) check.
I understand your ruling and disagree (if equine build only stated "When you make such a climb, each foot of movement costs you 4 extra feet " i would have agreed with you). I don't think we will make any more progress without something like a sage advice. I'm aware that climbing faster in rough terrain would be ridiculous but silly things happen when you are discussing RAW with edge cases like this
Edit: sorry for the extra underline, couldnt seem to get rid of it when copy pasting
That's a pretty solid argument as far as I'm concerned. I also think there's some ambiguity in the specific vs. general approach because the conflict we're looking at is not basic climbing versus Equine Build, it's Roving versus Equine Build. Both of those are arguably specific rules.
I think Roving makes you a mountain goat.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Equine Build increases the penalty to using your normal movement speed to climb. Note the language "instead of the normal 1 extra," which indicates that aside from the one number changing from a one to a four the original rule still applies as normal. A climbing speed, which Roving explicitly grants, means that you do not suffer any reduced movement when climbing. That means that the normal penalty, regardless of how great it is for a Centaur, does not apply. So mountain goat pony-elf.
My thanks to everyone who responded here. I enjoy these sorts of deep dives into the rules. After talking about this build with my DM, who is typically in favor of player fun, we decided the Centaur would effectively become a mountain goat, scaling mountains with ease. Probably won't be too overpowered or consistently useful, but it'll be a fun gimmick when it comes up.
A bit off topic, but this reminds me of when my niece reflavored her centaur character as a gnome sitting on a chair on the back of a goat.
There are different types of climbing, though. Climbing a mountain is different from climbing a rope. I would say that having Roving cancel all the Equine Build penalty only makes sense if you are dealing with some kind of diagonal gradient. In a vertical climb, Equine Build should still be a hindrance.