In theory.. a level 10 V-human monk with the mobile feat has 50ft movement speed. We'll say he weighs 177 lbs at 6 ft tall (average BMI) and as part of unarmed movement can run along vertical surfaces.
So here's the scenario, trying not to get wordy... the monk is squaring off with a single enemy in melee range and the two are standing next to a smooth wall that climbs higher than they can see. The monk makes his first melee attack which activates mobile (so no AoA for the enemy) weather he hits or not . Then the monk runs 50 feet up the wall next to them, kicking off the wall he falls 50 feet and lands his 2nd attacks as he comes down on his enemy's head... he then activates slowfall before he hits the ground reducing his own fall damage by 50..
As the dm or a fellow player what do you do or expect here.. would you allow it in the first place.. would you add fall damage equal to a 177 lb object falling 50 feet onto someone's head to the attacks damage? Do you consider the moment of impact the monk landing and he breaks his foot against the enemy's skull? Does slowfall actually slow his fall and can he activate it after he makes an airborne attacks?
I'd probably rule it is an attack action of its own, as its doing half of 5d6 and knocking the opponent prone. But they'd still get to flurry of blows, I suppose, as their bonus action.
Falling onto a Creature
If a creature falls into the space of a second creature and neither of them is Tiny, the second creature must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw or be impacted by the falling creature, and any damage resulting from the fall is divided evenly between them. The impacted creature is also knocked prone, unless it is two or more sizes larger than the falling creature.
Keep in mind this is just my opinion, and how I would rule at my table, and is not intended to be RAW.
When a person falls and lands, our joints and muscles and tendons and such make a million nearly instantaneous adjustments and reactions to prevent us from hurting ourselves. Each one of your feet has 26 bones, 33 joints, and over 100 muscles, ligaments, and tendons. Our entire body is a shock absorber that diffuses and redistributes impact energy to prevent injury. Monks in particular train this ability to a superhuman degree. That's why they can fall from such great heights without serious injury.
So when the monk falls on top of another creature, the monk's body will instinctively respond as if hitting the ground, to prevent injury to the monk. And those millions of reactions and adjustments will lessen the impact force between the monk and whatever surface the monk is landing on, even if it's a creature. The amount of damage the target takes cannot be any more than what the monk takes from the fall, because of the whole "equal and opposite forces" thing in physics.
Now, if the monk chooses NOT to use their special training, if the monk chooses NOT to land safely, if the monk chooses to stiffen their body and basically cannonball onto the target, then yes, the target would take the equivalent amount of falling damage - but so would the monk. The monk cannot fall onto the target, damaging the target, and then activate their Slow Fall ability because by that point the monk is no longer falling, they have already landed on the target.
As mentioned, there is an optional rule for this in tasha's:
Falling onto a Creature
If a creature falls into the space of a second creature and neither of them is Tiny, the second creature must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw or be impacted by the falling creature, and any damage resulting from the fall is divided evenly between them. The impacted creature is also knocked prone, unless it is two or more sizes larger than the falling creature.
Up to DM whether or not to use it and how it interacts with slow fall if at all. IMO, the monk and the "cushion" creature should take the same damage with slow fall applying before the damage is split.
As far as core rules goes, there is nothing to suggest you deal any extra damage.
As mentioned, there is an optional rule for this in tasha's:
Falling onto a Creature
If a creature falls into the space of a second creature and neither of them is Tiny, the second creature must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw or be impacted by the falling creature, and any damage resulting from the fall is divided evenly between them. The impacted creature is also knocked prone, unless it is two or more sizes larger than the falling creature.
Up to DM whether or not to use it and how it interacts with slow fall if at all. IMO, the monk and the "cushion" creature should take the same damage with slow fall applying before the damage is split.
As far as core rules goes, there is nothing to suggest you deal any extra damage.
I agree with the above. Without using the optional rule in Tasha's there is no mention of damage to creatures when something falls on them and therefore the damage is 0 unless the DM homebrews something. Using Tasha's the interaction with slow fal is not clear "any damage resulting from the fall is divided evenly between them" implies that the monk and the enemy take the same amount of damage but "any damage resulting from the fall is divided evenly between them" can be interpreted that the 5d6 (or whatever) is split between the monk and then enemy and then the monk can reduce the damage they take. It comes dow to do to split the damage before or after it is reduced due to slow fall.
What you want to avoid is a situation where a PC is far more powerful than they are supposed to be by some interpretation of the rules. 5d6 divided by 2 averages 9 so giving the monk and extra 9 damage per turn if their enemy if they fails a DC 15 dex save is a moderately high amount of extra damage (similar to an extra attack), as long as it only works very situationally (most of the time the monk has nowhere to clime high enough to give a significant amount of extra damage) I would be inclined to use the Tash'a optional rule while alowing the monk to reduce damage from slow fall after the damage is split.
I would also dispute when you choose to activate Slow Fall, the wording simply says "when you fall you can use your reaction". Since you have already started falling, the slow fall would apply to the whole fall.
We had a warforged character do damage equal to the fall damage it would recieve from the fall when it lands on an enemy. Don't remember if the warforged took half the same damage or if the leftover damage applied to him. He jumped from a castle wall (Probably 20 ish feet high) onto a guy in the snow (Knee high snow).
And that's perfectly reasonable I myself questioned it at the time of typing as well as when is the character actually considered "landed" ie: driving his foot into a body that is going to likely crumple beneath him is different than landing on unyielding ground... so the thought was jump, smash, crumple, slow fall in the last foot or two... the whole situation is a lot of maymemaybemaybe and might stretch expected reaction times and takes guesses at actual physics so.. just thought I'd gather opinions.
If you want to do the falling damage, then the collision must occur, which means you're already stopped falling - so no Slow Fall.
That's a sticking point that I wouldn't argue with my dm but personally I disagree with the basic logic of this; if you jump on a watermelon, you will feel recoil when you hit the ground beneath the watermelon but not as your foot is going through the watermelon... the target in this hypothetical scenario is yielding, they would likely crumple beneath your blow, not act as a stone.
That's just my opinion but what you said seems to be the popular ruling and of course I would respect that at the table...
Started shaking my head as soon as you listed the monk's weight as if it mattered. It can't. Because if it does, the best battle strategy immediately becomes dropping boulders on every single enemy.
Falling damage is abstracted for more than just simplicity's sake. If you try to stick to physics it's very easy to weaponize, which tends to trivialize regular combat maneuvers. Just don't do it.
And claiming that you can use the full force of a fall (while not suffering an equal and opposite reaction yourself because the enemy haas very conveniently placed crumple zones) for an attack and then activating slow fall in the split second before you hit the ground feels like having your cake and eating it too.
Is it cool? Absolutely. Fortunately, 5e has a generic bonus you can grant for unusual circumstances such as this - the attack can be made with advantage. Or you can suck it up and take half damage as per the rules for exactly this situation.
Started shaking my head as soon as you listed the monk's weight as if it mattered. It can't. Because if it does, the best battle strategy immediately becomes dropping boulders on every single enemy.
Falling damage is abstracted for more than just simplicity's sake. If you try to stick to physics it's very easy to weaponize, which tends to trivialize regular combat maneuvers. Just don't do it.
And claiming that you can use the full force of a fall (while not suffering an equal and opposite reaction yourself because the enemy haas very conveniently placed crumple zones) for an attack and then activating slow fall in the split second before you hit the ground feels like having your cake and eating it too.
Is it cool? Absolutely. Fortunately, 5e has a generic bonus you can grant for unusual circumstances such as this - the attack can be made with advantage. Or you can suck it up and take half damage as per the rules for exactly this situation.
You're not wrong at all about physics quickly breaking the game... telekinesis rapidly becomes the most op thing in the game...
I don't necessarily thing there's anything wrong with trying to "have your cake and eat it too". I think it's generally accepted that mid to late game monks have a lot of disconnected options in their kit that can be difficult to capitalize on effectively and thus end up being rather pathetic compared to most other options post lv 11 and also tend to not multiclass well. I think that can be argued ad nauseum but I was basically just trying to think of unique ways to capitalize on things offered by their kit that otherwise see little use... in this case, their nack for rapid movement and acrobatic feats.. in an actual combat effective way other than standard hit-and-run tactics
I have thought about how to add some leap attack by using optional Tasha's falling rule. I have come up with this :
- Monk slow fall reaction would divide the whole falling DMG ( before splitting with an other creature ) because you use it before landing ;
- Barbarian rage would reduce the DMG after splitting it with an other creature you fall on, because that's how a barbarian works ;
- This kind of action would be considered as a special attack, like pushing, knocking prone or grabbing, so you do need to spend an attack action ;
- To resolve this action, the attacker does an attack roll and the defender does a DD 15 dex save :
- First scenario : The attack roll hits and the defender fails his save, you roll your weapon DMG dice and then the falling DMG that will be add to the weapon DMG as a modifier, this mean the DMG will be the same type as the weapon but it can't be increase by a crit. You also take the other half of falling DMG as non-magical bludgeoning and end your turn prone, unless you have enough movement to stand up right away. If the defender has huge spike on his armor/body that act as magical, you could turn this DMG to magical piercing.
- Second scenario : The attack roll hits and the defender succeed his save, you roll your weapon DMG, you take the whole falling DMG in your face and you end your turn prone, unless you have enough movement to stand up.
- Third scenario : The attack roll fails and the defender succeed his save, you do not roll you weapon DMG, you take the whole falling DMG and end your turn prone. If you rolled a 1 on your attack roll, you are also stun until your next turn.
- Fourth scenario: The attack roll fails and the defender fail his save, you do not roll your weapon DMG but you fall on the defender, splitting the DMG.
- As a DM, when the defender succeed his save, you can force the player to do a Strength save to know if he drop his weapon or not, since he's taking the whole falling DMG. As a DM, you can also ready up a creature action to attack someone doing this "leap attack" against you. If you do this and you hit the player, the falling DMG will become a modifier for that creature attack DMG.
Please, let me know what you think. And remember, this is technically a special action that could be done every turn or every 2-turn. So, to make sure it doesn't become a broken mechanism, the downside as to be relevant.
No slow fall if attack uses Unarmed Strikes, as your imparting force damage in addition to strike, Melee Weapon attack and reaction ability unused, 5d6 force added to attack for 1d6 landing damage, I might buy it.
In theory.. a level 10 V-human monk with the mobile feat has 50ft movement speed. We'll say he weighs 177 lbs at 6 ft tall (average BMI) and as part of unarmed movement can run along vertical surfaces.
So here's the scenario, trying not to get wordy... the monk is squaring off with a single enemy in melee range and the two are standing next to a smooth wall that climbs higher than they can see. The monk makes his first melee attack which activates mobile (so no AoA for the enemy) weather he hits or not . Then the monk runs 50 feet up the wall next to them, kicking off the wall he falls 50 feet and lands his 2nd attacks as he comes down on his enemy's head... he then activates slowfall before he hits the ground reducing his own fall damage by 50..
As the dm or a fellow player what do you do or expect here.. would you allow it in the first place.. would you add fall damage equal to a 177 lb object falling 50 feet onto someone's head to the attacks damage? Do you consider the moment of impact the monk landing and he breaks his foot against the enemy's skull? Does slowfall actually slow his fall and can he activate it after he makes an airborne attacks?
I'd probably rule it is an attack action of its own, as its doing half of 5d6 and knocking the opponent prone. But they'd still get to flurry of blows, I suppose, as their bonus action.
Falling onto a Creature
If a creature falls into the space of a second creature and neither of them is Tiny, the second creature must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity saving throw or be impacted by the falling creature, and any damage resulting from the fall is divided evenly between them. The impacted creature is also knocked prone, unless it is two or more sizes larger than the falling creature.
Well yes, but also no.
Keep in mind this is just my opinion, and how I would rule at my table, and is not intended to be RAW.
When a person falls and lands, our joints and muscles and tendons and such make a million nearly instantaneous adjustments and reactions to prevent us from hurting ourselves. Each one of your feet has 26 bones, 33 joints, and over 100 muscles, ligaments, and tendons. Our entire body is a shock absorber that diffuses and redistributes impact energy to prevent injury. Monks in particular train this ability to a superhuman degree. That's why they can fall from such great heights without serious injury.
So when the monk falls on top of another creature, the monk's body will instinctively respond as if hitting the ground, to prevent injury to the monk. And those millions of reactions and adjustments will lessen the impact force between the monk and whatever surface the monk is landing on, even if it's a creature. The amount of damage the target takes cannot be any more than what the monk takes from the fall, because of the whole "equal and opposite forces" thing in physics.
Now, if the monk chooses NOT to use their special training, if the monk chooses NOT to land safely, if the monk chooses to stiffen their body and basically cannonball onto the target, then yes, the target would take the equivalent amount of falling damage - but so would the monk. The monk cannot fall onto the target, damaging the target, and then activate their Slow Fall ability because by that point the monk is no longer falling, they have already landed on the target.
But that's just my 2 c.p.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
As mentioned, there is an optional rule for this in tasha's:
Up to DM whether or not to use it and how it interacts with slow fall if at all. IMO, the monk and the "cushion" creature should take the same damage with slow fall applying before the damage is split.
As far as core rules goes, there is nothing to suggest you deal any extra damage.
I agree with the above. Without using the optional rule in Tasha's there is no mention of damage to creatures when something falls on them and therefore the damage is 0 unless the DM homebrews something. Using Tasha's the interaction with slow fal is not clear "any damage resulting from the fall is divided evenly between them" implies that the monk and the enemy take the same amount of damage but "any damage resulting from the fall is divided evenly between them" can be interpreted that the 5d6 (or whatever) is split between the monk and then enemy and then the monk can reduce the damage they take. It comes dow to do to split the damage before or after it is reduced due to slow fall.
What you want to avoid is a situation where a PC is far more powerful than they are supposed to be by some interpretation of the rules. 5d6 divided by 2 averages 9 so giving the monk and extra 9 damage per turn if their enemy if they fails a DC 15 dex save is a moderately high amount of extra damage (similar to an extra attack), as long as it only works very situationally (most of the time the monk has nowhere to clime high enough to give a significant amount of extra damage) I would be inclined to use the Tash'a optional rule while alowing the monk to reduce damage from slow fall after the damage is split.
I would also dispute when you choose to activate Slow Fall, the wording simply says "when you fall you can use your reaction". Since you have already started falling, the slow fall would apply to the whole fall.
We had a warforged character do damage equal to the fall damage it would recieve from the fall when it lands on an enemy. Don't remember if the warforged took half the same damage or if the leftover damage applied to him. He jumped from a castle wall (Probably 20 ish feet high) onto a guy in the snow (Knee high snow).
Hope it helps!
And that's perfectly reasonable I myself questioned it at the time of typing as well as when is the character actually considered "landed" ie: driving his foot into a body that is going to likely crumple beneath him is different than landing on unyielding ground... so the thought was jump, smash, crumple, slow fall in the last foot or two... the whole situation is a lot of maymemaybemaybe and might stretch expected reaction times and takes guesses at actual physics so.. just thought I'd gather opinions.
Shenanigans!
Wha-- COUNTERSPELL!
If you want to do the falling damage, then the collision must occur, which means you're already stopped falling - so no Slow Fall.
That's a sticking point that I wouldn't argue with my dm but personally I disagree with the basic logic of this; if you jump on a watermelon, you will feel recoil when you hit the ground beneath the watermelon but not as your foot is going through the watermelon... the target in this hypothetical scenario is yielding, they would likely crumple beneath your blow, not act as a stone.
That's just my opinion but what you said seems to be the popular ruling and of course I would respect that at the table...
Started shaking my head as soon as you listed the monk's weight as if it mattered. It can't. Because if it does, the best battle strategy immediately becomes dropping boulders on every single enemy.
Falling damage is abstracted for more than just simplicity's sake. If you try to stick to physics it's very easy to weaponize, which tends to trivialize regular combat maneuvers. Just don't do it.
And claiming that you can use the full force of a fall (while not suffering an equal and opposite reaction yourself because the enemy haas very conveniently placed crumple zones) for an attack and then activating slow fall in the split second before you hit the ground feels like having your cake and eating it too.
Is it cool? Absolutely. Fortunately, 5e has a generic bonus you can grant for unusual circumstances such as this - the attack can be made with advantage. Or you can suck it up and take half damage as per the rules for exactly this situation.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
You're not wrong at all about physics quickly breaking the game... telekinesis rapidly becomes the most op thing in the game...
I don't necessarily thing there's anything wrong with trying to "have your cake and eat it too". I think it's generally accepted that mid to late game monks have a lot of disconnected options in their kit that can be difficult to capitalize on effectively and thus end up being rather pathetic compared to most other options post lv 11 and also tend to not multiclass well. I think that can be argued ad nauseum but I was basically just trying to think of unique ways to capitalize on things offered by their kit that otherwise see little use... in this case, their nack for rapid movement and acrobatic feats.. in an actual combat effective way other than standard hit-and-run tactics
I have thought about how to add some leap attack by using optional Tasha's falling rule. I have come up with this :
- Monk slow fall reaction would divide the whole falling DMG ( before splitting with an other creature ) because you use it before landing ;
- Barbarian rage would reduce the DMG after splitting it with an other creature you fall on, because that's how a barbarian works ;
- This kind of action would be considered as a special attack, like pushing, knocking prone or grabbing, so you do need to spend an attack action ;
- To resolve this action, the attacker does an attack roll and the defender does a DD 15 dex save :
- First scenario : The attack roll hits and the defender fails his save, you roll your weapon DMG dice and then the falling DMG that will be add to the weapon DMG as a modifier, this mean the DMG will be the same type as the weapon but it can't be increase by a crit. You also take the other half of falling DMG as non-magical bludgeoning and end your turn prone, unless you have enough movement to stand up right away. If the defender has huge spike on his armor/body that act as magical, you could turn this DMG to magical piercing.
- Second scenario : The attack roll hits and the defender succeed his save, you roll your weapon DMG, you take the whole falling DMG in your face and you end your turn prone, unless you have enough movement to stand up.
- Third scenario : The attack roll fails and the defender succeed his save, you do not roll you weapon DMG, you take the whole falling DMG and end your turn prone. If you rolled a 1 on your attack roll, you are also stun until your next turn.
- Fourth scenario: The attack roll fails and the defender fail his save, you do not roll your weapon DMG but you fall on the defender, splitting the DMG.
- As a DM, when the defender succeed his save, you can force the player to do a Strength save to know if he drop his weapon or not, since he's taking the whole falling DMG. As a DM, you can also ready up a creature action to attack someone doing this "leap attack" against you. If you do this and you hit the player, the falling DMG will become a modifier for that creature attack DMG.
Please, let me know what you think. And remember, this is technically a special action that could be done every turn or every 2-turn. So, to make sure it doesn't become a broken mechanism, the downside as to be relevant.
No slow fall if attack uses Unarmed Strikes, as your imparting force damage in addition to strike, Melee Weapon attack and reaction ability unused, 5d6 force added to attack for 1d6 landing damage, I might buy it.
I really like this ruling! I think I will use it for my table.:)